[PSUBS-MAILIST] engine drive
Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Mon Aug 21 18:27:58 EDT 2017
Hi Hank,
I am using jetski motors which are used to being in a small enclosure, are marinised, Rely only on the cooling water and air intake, Have water cooled exhaust manifold etc.
Biggest problem is the rpm which I have made a water cooled gearbox for 2:1 reduction. Hugh
From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles
Sent: Tuesday, 22 August 2017 12:02 AM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] engine drive
Hi Hugh,
I have been bench testing my Honda and taking temperature readings. I have an area on the engine that hits 150 F while the rest of the engine is around 110 F . That makes me think I need good air circulation for additional cooling as well as for potential gas vapour. Have you done heat build up testing? Are you supplementing the air space with additional air circulation beyond the air consumed by the engine? If these details are proprietary, I understand if you don't want to share.
Hank
On Monday, August 21, 2017, 5:40:43 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
Hi Pete,
I have looked at that idea and it is an option alright. The problem I want to avoid is getting out of the sub in bad weather and waves. I have done some experimenting by walking around Gamma to see how it would be to install a motor at sea. If there are waves, I would get wet. One option would be to instal a long motor bracket that can hinge up to make it easier. I have even looked at stowing an outboard inside the sub. I am usually alone and getting out of the sub in waves would be risky.
The two lakes I want to spend my time in are very unpredictable. If I am towing my sub and have 5 miles to go and a storm whips up, it is pretty ugly.
I have had that happen when attempting a deep test for Elementary. I was almost going to drop the sup off and go in without it. I got caught in a snow blizzard one time doing a deep test on another lake and luckily I was dressed for it but it is not a good situation. With an engine onboard I can have heat and air-conditioning and sip on a coffee while I head to shore.
Hank
On Sunday, August 20, 2017, 7:54:19 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
Hank,Why not rig a small outboard to Gamma and stash it in the rubber raft when you dive ?
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 8/20/17, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] engine drive
To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Date: Sunday, August 20, 2017, 6:56 PM
Hugh,I
had two options in mind, well actually three. One was a
bladder, the other a full pressure rated tank or a
detachable tank that stores in the inflatable tender that I
am now towing. The bladder would be very easy and I have
an enclosed space for it already. I also would only need
about 20 litres.Detaching would probably be the
most simple. Inside the sub is not an option at
all.You have a couple of high power gas engines
in Q-sub ? They must be in a pressure compensated
enclosure. I tried to find that information today to steal
an idea or two ;-) You must also be dealing with
potential vapours.Hank
On Sunday,
August 20, 2017, 5:45:35 PM MDT, Hugh Fulton via
Personal_Submersibles
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
#yiv5065617548 --
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#yiv5065617548 Hi Hank,I am a believer of putting the
fuel outside the vessel in the form of a bladder.
100 litres of diesel/petrol would
weight about 83 and 75 kg resprctively so would be positive
17 or 25 kg flotation but if inside the vessel would be 83
kg negative and when empty would be 83 kg of unwanted
flotation if diesel. The additional safety of having a
bladder outside is the biggest consideration.
Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles
[mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On
Behalf Of irox via Personal_Submersibles
Sent: Monday, 21 August 2017 11:02 AM
To: Personal Submersibles General
Discussion
Subject: Re:
[PSUBS-MAILIST] engine drive Hi Hank, one of the key dangers with
gasoline vapor is that it's heavier than air, so it will
pool inside the sub (this has not changed with advancements
in ICE technology). Even with good ventilation, purging
the pressure hull of gasoline vapor may be
tricky. You could look at converting the
engine to something which is lighter than air (hydrogen?),
but this should under go a lot of research/experimentation
to ensure it's safe.
There has been a lot of discussion of using gas
engines in sub in the past (bionic dolphin uses gas, but
this is more enclosed jet skii than submarine), none of
which seemed yield a safe approach to
this. Could you cut open your hull to
install the engine, then weld it up
again? Good luck, Ian.-----Original Message-----
From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles
Sent: Aug 20, 2017 3:41 PM
To:
Personal Submersibles General Discussion
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] engine drive
Alec,Yes it may be to scary, I will
give it more thought. I need more range, and my boat will
not be ready for the spring of 2018. It is bad enough I
missed this season ;-( I need a working submarine with
reliable range and batteries will not do it.
The danger is gas vapour reaching
an explosive level. That would mean a leak and no proper
venting coupled with an ignition source. Both these risks
can be managed. Diesel fuel in a hot enclosed environment
is not as volatile but still not without risk. In all
fairness, you can't compare early antique engines with a
modern-day Honda. My options are limited with an 18 inch
opening. Hank On Sunday, August 20, 2017,
4:21:51 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
wrote: Sorry to be critical, but yes,
from an historical perspective a gas engine would be a big
no-no as gas powered subs were death traps prior to the
adoption of diesel. I always say my subs are at their most
dangerous in the shop, not in the water. This could be a
situation where the drained gas engine is not dangerous
underwater but is dangerous during surface transit. And
frankly storing the gas outboard sounds like a bit of a
challenge in itself. I applaud original solutions, but
this isn't one that sounds like a good idea, at least to
me. Gamma seems to have pretty good
range on batteries, and I recall you're planning on the
trailerable landing craft. Would the landing craft not
obviate the need for an onboard
ICE? Cheers,
Alec On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 7:50 AM,
hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
wrote:Hi All,My diesel engine did not work out
in the end, and 6 hp I suspect is a bit skinny. I do have
a beautiful 15 hp 4 stroke Honda outboard that has been
converted to run a hydraulic pump inboard. I converted it
many years ago to power my sternwheeler but ended up with an
antique engine. The engine is stripped down to a bare engine
with external water pump and internal oil cooler. The
problem is, it is a gas engine, and that is a big NO NO or
is it? If the fuel supply is outside the hull and the
engine is run out of fuel before a dive, then there is no
fuel at all inside the sub while it dives. An engine
compartment blower fan can constantly circulate air through
a duct to the outside of the sub. I know as a rule it is
considered a bad idea but with careful installation it
could be a very nice drive system. This would be much
quieter and smoother than a diesel engine. The Honda would
be very easy to remove from the escape pod if I need to
escape. The Honda 4 stroke is as reliable as even a Yanmar
diesel. I was bragging to a Honda mechanic one time that
the Honda starts with two pulls in the spring. He said it
must need a tune up LOL it should start in one pull.
Hank
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