[PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 50, Issue 19

Alan via Personal_Submersibles personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Wed Aug 9 21:09:09 EDT 2017 

Hi Steve,
ideally a normal air conditioner would be better for cooling, but you have to get rid of 
it's heat somehow. I am not sure how the expensive submersibles do it! Maybe there 
is a through hull to an external heat exchanger. They are also noisy, bulky & I could be
wrong but I believe G.L. have issues with the gas they use! If the peltier was 25% as
efficient as a compression unit, & needed 4 x the power, then that might mean having
another battery to drive it. The bulk & expense of the battery may even out the cost
& size comparison of the two options. This would be interesting to research!
I saw a couple of articles that said the Peltier was up there in efficiency with 
resistive heating. They are used in climate control modules in both their heating &
cooling functions, & I like this option for a submersible where you can go from one 
extreme of temperature to another! ( like Melbourne)
Cheers Alan
p.s. my daughter loves it in Melbourne she has been there 4 years now!




Sent from my iPad

> On 10/08/2017, at 12:14 PM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Alan,
> Resistive heating being about as close as you can get to 100%, I would be sceptical about that. I've experimented with Peltier modules for gas cooling and they were quite disappointing in performance, although wonderfully simple in operation.
> 
> Cheers,
> Steve
> 
>> On 10 Aug 2017 8:33 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>> Just did some Googling on the Peltier as a heater.
>> In an experiment I saw it was more efficient than resistive heating!
>> This depends to an extent on the ambient heat differential. 
>> I would imagine you would need to attach them to the hull & surround them
>> with an insulating material to stop the metal of the hull radiating back
>> the cold or heat produced, & force it to transfer it all to the water.
>> Another bunny trail to investigate.
>> Cheers Alan
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On 10/08/2017, at 9:18 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Mike,
>>> the peltier is only 1/4 to 1/3 as efficient as a compressor system, but Cliff
>>> & I have very little spare room. They serve as heaters by reversing polarity.
>>> I am not sure of their efficiency as heaters compared with resistive coils;
>>> probably poor!  Cliff would have to cut a hole in his fibreglass outer & dig back
>>> the syntactic foam to the pressure hull to get cooling on the reverse side of
>>> the peltier or compressor air conditioning unit. Could look sexy if he put some
>>> shark gills in it for water ingress.
>>> Cliff didn't have a cover on the dome, & that would let a lot of heat in.
>>> We had a wet towel on Snoopy last time at Islamorada.
>>> Have heard that people like Nuytco use a shore based air conditioner to cool
>>> the sub down prior to a dive; but I don't know how long that benefit would
>>> last being towed out that distance.
>>> Cheers Alan
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>> 
>>>> On 10/08/2017, at 6:25 AM, peaceroom via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Reference,summer submarine cooling. A scaled down version of the small cooler with ice and DC fan, similar to the one in Sportys, aviation supplies is what a lot of planes use. Just an inexpensive idea. Peltier coolers provide very little cooling versus DC current used. Mike Patterson 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my Samsung device
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>> From: via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
>>>> Date: 8/9/17 11:46 AM (GMT-05:00) 
>>>> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org 
>>>> Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 50, Issue 19 
>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>> 
>>>>    1. Re: Islamorada Trip Report...
>>>>       (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles)
>>>>    2. Re: Islamorada Trip Report...
>>>>       (james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles)
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 08:03:07 -0500
>>>> From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Islamorada Trip Report...
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <CAK4DN4DuhY87_6v+19RNb-6x2d9fKdaCW1uND2psz=ncVoQ9cg at mail.gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>> 
>>>> Footage from my sub on the trip is limited due to condensation on
>>>> viewport.  I used Dove soap on the viewport interior prior to taking off
>>>> but because of the humidity , temperature and duration of the dive, this
>>>> treatment did not last and I did not have more soap on board.  The other
>>>> issue is I only had two hand towels on board and these became soaked with
>>>> sweat.  As such, they were not good for cleaning the condensation off after
>>>> the two hour tow to the dive site.  Action items:  Have small bottle of
>>>> Dove soap on board and more towels for future long duration dives.
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, I have been reading up on peltier coolers.  I have quite a bit of
>>>> battery capacity so this could work.  Unfortunately, mounting on hull won't
>>>> work for me as I have syntactic foam under the FRP shell over the hull so I
>>>> don't have a cool surface to mount on.  I do have a pair of plugged off
>>>> ports on the bottom of the boat that would give me access to cooling water
>>>> source if I installed a small pump on this circuit.  Pushing this water
>>>> through a small fin-fan cooler like you would see on water cooled
>>>> motorcycle would help with the temperature some what but not humidity.   At
>>>> Islamorada, the average water temperature at the time of the dive was about
>>>> 87F so this would not have helped all that much.  A small DC AC system that
>>>> controlled both temperature and humidity would be better.
>>>> 
>>>> On the thruster pneumatic pressure compensation, I was very happy with how
>>>> this worked.  I have all four of my thrusters connected to 1/4" SS tubing
>>>> that is manifold into a single pressure reducing/relieving regulator
>>>> (thanks Hugh)  under the cover just aft of the pilot. I was not sure if a
>>>> single regulator would work or if I would need one for each thruster but it
>>>> looks like one was adequate.  I have had two deep dives with the
>>>> arrangement, one to 155 ft and one to 100 ft and have had no issues with
>>>> water in the thrusters.
>>>> 
>>>> Best Regards
>>>> 
>>>> Cliff
>>>> 
>>>> On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 10:50 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> > Thanks Cliff,
>>>> > I presume you shot some footage from your sub & this is the entr?e!
>>>> > Nice & clear, you must have been pretty happy down there!
>>>> > After you mentioned air conditioning, I looked into peltier elements &
>>>> > air conditioning units. The peltier conditioners have only 25% the
>>>> > efficiency
>>>> > of a normal compression cycle system, but are really small & by reversing
>>>> > the polarity can act as heaters. A few of those peltier elements stuck to
>>>> > the hull
>>>> > with air channelled past them might be the way to go! Not sure what
>>>> > batteries you
>>>> > are using, but the new battery technologies on the way will make energy
>>>> > expenditure less of an issue!
>>>> > Do you have all 4 motors exhausting through one regulator? Couldn't see
>>>> > any
>>>> > air coming out of the motor seals so the pressure isn't building up too
>>>> > much
>>>> > when exhausting.
>>>> > Cheers Alan
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Sent from my iPad
>>>> >
>>>> > On 9/08/2017, at 8:25 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Added two quick and dirty Youtube videos from 2017 Psubs Regatta.  The
>>>> > first is the 100 ft dive 5.3 miles offshore on Aug 3
>>>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHqL49V0lMw and the second is a night
>>>> > dive in front of Doug's house  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDBw1ZOdKaI.
>>>> > Alec is working on a more comprehensive video of the Regatta.
>>>> >
>>>> > Regards
>>>> >
>>>> > Cliff
>>>> >
>>>> > On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 4:53 PM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Greetings PSUBS group, Douglas Suhr here to share my take on the 4-day
>>>> >> sub operation we just completed in Islamorada, FL (July 31st, August
>>>> >> 1-3).
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Wow, what a whirlwind! So July 31st was really an arrival / setup day
>>>> >> with August 1-3 being true operational days. Though it was unfortunate
>>>> >> that Alec wasn't able to make it with Shackleton, we had our hands
>>>> >> full with Cliff's R-300. Without Shackleton, we also had enough time
>>>> >> to get Snoopy set up and lowered into the canal for some basic diving.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> List of Crew: Dan Lance, Steve McQueen, Cliff Redus, Rick Maxwell,
>>>> >> River Dolfi, Mike Patterson, Doug, Sarah, Douglas Suhr.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> This was my first time meeting Dan Lance, a (retired) saturation diver
>>>> >> and commercial welder. What a pleasure to have him join us on this
>>>> >> operation. Dan is modest, but most willing to share his knowledge and
>>>> >> extensive experience with a newbie like me. So pleased to have chatted
>>>> >> with him in the Keys. During the towing of the R-300, Dan manned the
>>>> >> tow line and helped with comms.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Steve McQueen and River Dolfi did awesome jobs as our frog men.
>>>> >> Filming, attaching / detaching davit and tow lines, etc. they were
>>>> >> both in and out of the water quite a bit (especially Steve). I think
>>>> >> River took a little jelly sting for the team. What troopers!
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Cliff and his assistant Rick are such a joy be around. Rick is one of
>>>> >> the friendliest people you'll ever meet (and even brought a gift for
>>>> >> the group: a watermelon, straight from Texas!). Cliff is always
>>>> >> willing to share his expertise (and sub, too) with anyone who'd like
>>>> >> to learn more. I know that between Dan Lance and Cliff, I learned more
>>>> >> than I can remember last week.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Mike Patterson, mom, dad and myself were all just providing whatever
>>>> >> kind of "troop support" we could to Cliff and the R-300.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> River, Steve and Myself got in some dive time on Snoopy in the canal
>>>> >> (which was great), but I think the biggest accomplishment was getting
>>>> >> the R-300 out a ways into the ocean.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Our Boston Whaler (a 25' boat with a single 250hp Yamaha) was able to
>>>> >> tow the R-300 out about 5 miles into the ocean (at about 4mph). We
>>>> >> were in radio communication with Cliff most of the time, though we did
>>>> >> suffer a few intermittent losses in comms. When we got to a spot about
>>>> >> 100 feet deep, we started to slow down a bit and at that point the tow
>>>> >> line hook (an admittedly cheap thing) let loose(!) so we decided that
>>>> >> we had reached our dive location. We switched from marine radio to OTS
>>>> >> and Cliff started down. Visibility was supurb! As Cliff neared the
>>>> >> bottom at 100 ? 110 feet, he was still quite visible from the Whaler!
>>>> >> His 18 foot long R-300 looked to be about 3 inches long, but wow did
>>>> >> it ever stand out from the rest of the sandy bottom. Cliff spent about
>>>> >> an hour "flying" his sub, surfacing, diving and maneuvering about,
>>>> >> testing systems and observing the ocean around him. By the time Cliff
>>>> >> surfaced and we towed back to port Antigua, elapsed time stood at 4.5
>>>> >> / 5 hours (estimate). Cliff said that he stayed cool by the water
>>>> >> flowing over the sub's dome hatch while in tow. Upon returning I think
>>>> >> we were all ready to take a break, but everyone felt great
>>>> >> accomplishment with the mission.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> A couple of lessons I took away from the tow out: We need better tow
>>>> >> equipment (better line, hardware and maybe a quick release). Our boat
>>>> >> REALLY needs a GPS (still don't have one). Towing into waves isn't so
>>>> >> much a problem, but when towing with the waves, our tow line needs to
>>>> >> be measured so as to sustain the proper distance between tow vessel
>>>> >> and sub (otherwise the sub and boat are constantly slacking and then
>>>> >> jerking, stressing the tow line and making it difficult for boat and
>>>> >> sub to track straight).
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The devotion of our crew was amazing, even in the heat and the waves
>>>> >> everyone did their jobs. Managing even a small sub operation like this
>>>> >> is more work / effort than meets the eye, that's for sure. At dinner,
>>>> >> one of the main discussions revolved around a support vessel that can
>>>> >> carry a sub or two on board, eliminating the slow, time consuming tow
>>>> >> out to an ocean dive site. Dan Lance shared details on his support
>>>> >> vessel project, which is no doubt going to be a dream in terms of
>>>> >> logistics. Hopefully when said vessel is ready to sail, Dan will lend
>>>> >> its services to host a diving event! ~ Douglas S.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>> >
>>>> >
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>>>> 
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:46:22 +0000 (UTC)
>>>> From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Islamorada Trip Report...
>>>> Message-ID: <1907666847.421009.1502293582178 at mail.yahoo.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Cliff,
>>>> Congrats on your dives. Sub really looks great in those videos.
>>>> With regards to an AC solution, one low tech method would be to blow air across ice in a small cooler. Water ice can be super cooled with Dry Ice the night before. Dry ice is about - 100 F and water ice cooled to this temperature should stay cold for quite some time.
>>>> Greg C      From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2017 9:05 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Islamorada Trip Report...
>>>>    
>>>> Footage from my sub on the trip is limited due to condensation on viewport.? I used Dove soap on the viewport interior?prior to taking off but because of the humidity , temperature and duration of the dive, this treatment did not last and I did not have more soap on board.? The other issue is I only had two hand towels on board and these became soaked with sweat.? As such, they were not good for cleaning the condensation off?after the two hour tow to the dive site.? Action items:? Have small bottle of Dove soap on board and more towels for future long duration dives.? 
>>>> Yes, I have been reading up on peltier coolers.? I have quite a bit of battery capacity so this could work.? Unfortunately, mounting on hull won't work for me as I have syntactic foam under the FRP shell over the hull so I don't have a cool surface to mount on.? I do have a pair of plugged off ports on the bottom of the boat that would give me access to cooling water source if I installed a small pump on this circuit.? Pushing this water through a small fin-fan cooler like you would see on?water cooled motorcycle would help with the temperature some what but not?humidity.? ?At Islamorada, the average water temperature at the time of the dive was about 87F so this would not have helped all that much.? A small DC AC system that controlled both temperature and humidity would be better.
>>>> On the thruster pneumatic pressure compensation, I was very happy with how this worked.? I have all four of my thrusters connected to 1/4" SS tubing that is manifold into a single pressure reducing/relieving regulator (thanks Hugh) ?under the cover just aft of the pilot.?I was not sure if a single regulator would work or if I would need one for each thruster but it looks like one was adequate.? I have had two deep dives with the arrangement, one to 155 ft and one to 100 ft and have had no issues with water in the thrusters.
>>>> Best Regards
>>>> Cliff
>>>> On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 10:50 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks Cliff,I presume you shot some footage from your sub & this is the entr?e!Nice & clear, you must have been pretty happy down there!After you mentioned air conditioning, I looked into peltier elements &air conditioning units. The peltier conditioners have only 25% the efficiency?of a normal compression cycle system, but are really small & by reversingthe polarity can act as heaters. A few of those peltier elements stuck to the hull?with air channelled past them might be the way to go! Not sure what batteries youare using, but the new battery technologies on the way will make energyexpenditure less of an issue!Do you have all 4 motors exhausting through one regulator? Couldn't see any?air coming out of the motor seals so the pressure isn't building up too muchwhen exhausting.Cheers Alan
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>> On 9/08/2017, at 8:25 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Added two quick and dirty Youtube videos from 2017 Psubs Regatta.? The first is the 100 ft dive 5.3 miles offshore on Aug 3??https://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=sHqL49V0lMw?and the second is a night dive in front of Doug's house??https://www.youtube. com/watch?v=KDBw1ZOdKaI.? Alec is working on a more comprehensive video of the Regatta.
>>>> Regards
>>>> Cliff
>>>> On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 4:53 PM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Greetings PSUBS group, Douglas Suhr here to share my take on the 4-day
>>>> sub operation we just completed in Islamorada, FL (July 31st, August
>>>> 1-3).
>>>> 
>>>> Wow, what a whirlwind! So July 31st was really an arrival / setup day
>>>> with August 1-3 being true operational days. Though it was unfortunate
>>>> that Alec wasn't able to make it with Shackleton, we had our hands
>>>> full with Cliff's R-300. Without Shackleton, we also had enough time
>>>> to get Snoopy set up and lowered into the canal for some basic diving.
>>>> 
>>>> List of Crew: Dan Lance, Steve McQueen, Cliff Redus, Rick Maxwell,
>>>> River Dolfi, Mike Patterson, Doug, Sarah, Douglas Suhr.
>>>> 
>>>> This was my first time meeting Dan Lance, a (retired) saturation diver
>>>> and commercial welder. What a pleasure to have him join us on this
>>>> operation. Dan is modest, but most willing to share his knowledge and
>>>> extensive experience with a newbie like me. So pleased to have chatted
>>>> with him in the Keys. During the towing of the R-300, Dan manned the
>>>> tow line and helped with comms.
>>>> 
>>>> Steve McQueen and River Dolfi did awesome jobs as our frog men.
>>>> Filming, attaching / detaching davit and tow lines, etc. they were
>>>> both in and out of the water quite a bit (especially Steve). I think
>>>> River took a little jelly sting for the team. What troopers!
>>>> 
>>>> Cliff and his assistant Rick are such a joy be around. Rick is one of
>>>> the friendliest people you'll ever meet (and even brought a gift for
>>>> the group: a watermelon, straight from Texas!). Cliff is always
>>>> willing to share his expertise (and sub, too) with anyone who'd like
>>>> to learn more. I know that between Dan Lance and Cliff, I learned more
>>>> than I can remember last week.
>>>> 
>>>> Mike Patterson, mom, dad and myself were all just providing whatever
>>>> kind of "troop support" we could to Cliff and the R-300.
>>>> 
>>>> River, Steve and Myself got in some dive time on Snoopy in the canal
>>>> (which was great), but I think the biggest accomplishment was getting
>>>> the R-300 out a ways into the ocean.
>>>> 
>>>> Our Boston Whaler (a 25' boat with a single 250hp Yamaha) was able to
>>>> tow the R-300 out about 5 miles into the ocean (at about 4mph). We
>>>> were in radio communication with Cliff most of the time, though we did
>>>> suffer a few intermittent losses in comms. When we got to a spot about
>>>> 100 feet deep, we started to slow down a bit and at that point the tow
>>>> line hook (an admittedly cheap thing) let loose(!) so we decided that
>>>> we had reached our dive location. We switched from marine radio to OTS
>>>> and Cliff started down. Visibility was supurb! As Cliff neared the
>>>> bottom at 100 ? 110 feet, he was still quite visible from the Whaler!
>>>> His 18 foot long R-300 looked to be about 3 inches long, but wow did
>>>> it ever stand out from the rest of the sandy bottom. Cliff spent about
>>>> an hour "flying" his sub, surfacing, diving and maneuvering about,
>>>> testing systems and observing the ocean around him. By the time Cliff
>>>> surfaced and we towed back to port Antigua, elapsed time stood at 4.5
>>>> / 5 hours (estimate). Cliff said that he stayed cool by the water
>>>> flowing over the sub's dome hatch while in tow. Upon returning I think
>>>> we were all ready to take a break, but everyone felt great
>>>> accomplishment with the mission.
>>>> 
>>>> A couple of lessons I took away from the tow out: We need better tow
>>>> equipment (better line, hardware and maybe a quick release). Our boat
>>>> REALLY needs a GPS (still don't have one). Towing into waves isn't so
>>>> much a problem, but when towing with the waves, our tow line needs to
>>>> be measured so as to sustain the proper distance between tow vessel
>>>> and sub (otherwise the sub and boat are constantly slacking and then
>>>> jerking, stressing the tow line and making it difficult for boat and
>>>> sub to track straight).
>>>> 
>>>> The devotion of our crew was amazing, even in the heat and the waves
>>>> everyone did their jobs. Managing even a small sub operation like this
>>>> is more work / effort than meets the eye, that's for sure. At dinner,
>>>> one of the main discussions revolved around a support vessel that can
>>>> carry a sub or two on board, eliminating the slow, time consuming tow
>>>> out to an ocean dive site. Dan Lance shared details on his support
>>>> vessel project, which is no doubt going to be a dream in terms of
>>>> logistics. Hopefully when said vessel is ready to sail, Dan will lend
>>>> its services to host a diving event! ~ Douglas S.
>>>> 
>>>> ______________________________ _________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>>> End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 50, Issue 19
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