[PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers

Fri Apr 22 21:28:28 EDT 2016

Hi Alec, when I purchased my first two mk101, I ordered the mk controller
that is powering both thrusters as a stand alone unit. I will be using
single mk controllers on the other 4 mk101. While I have not had them in
the water yet, I like the ability to run two thrusters with one controller.

David Colombo

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016, 4:54 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

> Thanks Alan. I've been tossing these suggestions in the direction of a
> friend and volunteer who is helping with this part of the design. He's a
> top expert in the field of vessel bridge controls, so what may appear
> complex to me is hopefully child's play to him.
>
> Incidentally, today I went to pick up Shackleton after she was sandblasted
> and painted. I can't wait to start the assembly, but unfortunately the
> painter had made the same mistake I did the first time I painted Snoopy,
> and that was to assume the inside needed far less protection than the
> outside. The outside looked great but the inside needed a lot of rework.
> Fortunately he was professional enough to take the feedback and will have
> it fixed without adding to the bill. Next week I try to pick up again...
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 7:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>> Alec,
>> in hindsight I would advise the Minn kota controller above the Kelly.
>> My Kelly brushless controller has about 30 wires coming out of it & most
>> of them are irrelevant to my use. They cover all the bases for a multitude
>> of operating options for various traction vehicles.
>>    Then you need to program it, which involves understanding the
>> terminology.
>>    I wired mine up & had 3 sets of fault signals blinking at me. It now
>> works
>> but my motor is running twice the speed it should. ( a brushless Phase
>> problem probably)
>> The Minn kotta controller is designed specifically for that motor &
>> application.
>> Cheers Alan
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> *Sent:* Friday, April 22, 2016 12:30 AM
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>>
>> You're right Alan, the tractor control would be pretty simple. Did you
>> use the joysticks' side-to-side axis for anything, or just the forward-back?
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>> Alec,
>> on my ambient I have 2 x 2 axis joysticks (play station 2 controller)
>> Forward & backward of the horizontal thrusters on the forward backward
>> axis &
>> up & down of the vertical thrusters with the left & right axis.
>> I used to angle the controller in my hands to the left, so when pushing
>> the joystick to the
>> elevated side of the controller you went up. With the tractor steering,
>> pushing
>> one joystick forward & the other back turned you like turning bicycle
>> handlebars.
>> It is very intuitive & I can't remember thinking "now what makes what go
>> where".
>> It is a great system for handing to a novice.
>> When I was looking at semi-industrial joy sticks there seemed to be
>> options within
>> models for "spring to center" I am sure they must have this option on a
>> rotating axis.
>> Alan
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 1:11 PM
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>>
>> That was very timely for me Cliff, thanks. I'm curious, given your use of
>> a foot control for throttle, whether you are using the joystick angle. That
>> is, I understand if you move the stick forward the sub goes forward, back
>> is reverse, and neutral is stopped. But is anything different between say
>> the joystick half way forward or all the way forward?
>>
>> I can't really use a pedal because my controls are to be portable so they
>> can be handed off between occupants and used anywhere on the boat. I'm
>> considering two control paradigms and wonder whether anyone here can
>> envision a preference, or maybe some other idea. You all just became my
>> focus group! I should say I loved the "depth knob" concept on Snoopy,
>> whereby one knob controls vertical thrust, so I'm keeping that no matter
>> what I do with the joystick.
>>
>> 1) Rotating joystick
>> JS Forward/back --> sub goes forward/reverse
>> JS Side to side --> crabbing (side thrusters are angled, and run in
>> opposite directions to crab)
>> JS rotation --> increase one stern thrusters, decrease the other
>> Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface ("depth knob")
>>
>> 2) Non-rotating joystick
>> JS Forwar/backd --> sub goes forward/reverse
>> JS Side to side --> "virtual rudder" increasing speed to one stern
>> thruster, decreasing to the other
>> Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface
>> Horizontal thumb wheel --> crabbing
>>
>> In all cases, the thruster speed would be proportional to the command
>> input. One thing I'm unsure of is whether the rotating joysticks have any
>> return-to-neutral bias. Do they just stay rotated if you let them go? Is
>> there a click as you go through zero degrees? With the other two axes, your
>> hand knows where things are at, but I'm not sure how that works with
>> rotation since I have not actually handled one of these joysticks yet.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Alec
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 7:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>> Alan, I use a foot control from OEM controls. This is a
>> hall effect potentiometer made for mobile heavy equipment.  It is very
>> beefy.  http://www.oemcontrols.com/datasheets/hfp4.pdf is a link to the
>> unit.  I am using model number HFP4M17445.  This a heavy duty commercial
>> grade foot control.  The version I have sends a 0-5vdc signal with the 2.5V
>> as the neutral position, 5V for full forward and 0v for full reverse.  I
>> have really been happy with the unit.  Feels rock solid.  I take the signal
>> into my PLC on an analog input channel.  I have some ladder logic that
>> enable me to integrate both the foot control signal and the rotation axis
>> of my 3 axis joy stick control to both aft horizontal thrusters.   If the
>> joy still rotary axis is in neutral position, then both aft thrusters get
>> the same signal such that the more forward you push on the foot control the
>> more forward thrust, the faster you go.  When you push down with your heal
>> the thrusters reverse proportional to the how far back you tilt the foot
>> control.  This gives me great forward/reverse and control. When the joy
>> stick is rotated in a clockwise manner, in PLC ladder logic I start
>> increasing the speed of the port aft horizontal thruster and decreasing the
>> speed of the starboard aft thruster.  This enables me at speed to turn to
>> the starboard side. Rotating the joystick in the counter clockwise
>> direction caused the boat to turn the port side.  If the foot control is in
>> the neutral position, then rotating the joy stick rotates the boat about
>> its center of gravity.  I have really been happy with how much control this
>> gives at any speed.
>>
>> Now on the negative side, the foot controller is expensive at $328. I am
>> sure with a little looking you could find one that does the same thing at a
>> reduced cost.
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>> Cliff,
>> can you tell me a bit about your foot controls.
>> Is it an off the shelf system? Is it forward, back,up & down
>> on all motors? How is it working out, was it reasonably
>> intuitive to operate?
>> Thanks Alan
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 5:40 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>>
>> By changing resistors you can use 0 to 5 Vdc.
>>
>> Cliff
>>
>>
>> Cliff Redus
>>
>> On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Cliff,
>> I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options
>> said "reverse"
>> but were only a programable function that enabled you to change
>> from forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires.
>> You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reverse
>> the motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26.
>> Cheers Alan
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>> Reversing is fully integrated.  See page 27 of users manual at
>> http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf  for analog
>> control.  0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in
>> opposite direction and 2.5v is off.
>>
>> Cliff
>>
>>
>> Cliff Redus
>>
>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>> Cliff / Alec,
>> I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw
>> 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller.
>> It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating it
>> with the controller if
>> it doesn't have that function.
>> Alan
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>>
>> At Robotshop.com <http://robotshop.com/>, the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV
>> Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well.  Each board would
>> control two of the MK101s independently.  Has a lot of flexibility on input
>> signal.  If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal.
>>
>>
>> Cliff
>>
>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the MK
>> trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and have
>> not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but
>> it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Alec
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>> Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters.
>> They have worked great.  They are potted and rugged.  They have an internal
>> relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage.  This means that
>> absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered
>> up while in the garage.
>>
>> My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis.
>> This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating.
>>
>>
>> Cliff Redus
>>
>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>> What did Cliff use?
>> He has been through this process recently with a 101.
>> Alan
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>>
>> No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the
>> Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm
>> looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems
>> to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more
>> advanced  dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel
>> controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one
>> can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same.
>>
>> Thanks guys for all the input!
>>
>> Alec
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Alec,
>> that one says brushless?
>> On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests.....
>> HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR?
>> Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller
>> is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's.
>>    I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller
>> whose continual
>> amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W.
>>    I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some
>> manufacturers over rate
>> their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their
>> ratings accurate,
>> however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the
>> ON light
>> isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the
>> pre-ignition resister
>> so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle!
>> Alan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM
>> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over
>> the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq:
>>
>>
>> http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file
>>
>> There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters.
>> Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still
>> handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less
>> expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous
>> duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A).
>>
>> Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to
>> consider?
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Alec
>>
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