From JimToddPsub at aol.com Tue Oct 1 11:38:11 2013 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 11:38:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Unique submersible Message-ID: <20e04.45344762.3f7c4663@aol.com> A friend of mine just took this pic at Conch Harbor in Key West. I've asked her to go back and get the info off the banner. Very unique submersible. Anyone familiar with it? -Jim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Untitled.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 45673 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 1 15:20:25 2013 From: jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com (greg cottrell) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 12:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Unique submersible In-Reply-To: <20e04.45344762.3f7c4663@aol.com> References: <20e04.45344762.3f7c4663@aol.com> Message-ID: <1380655225.15303.YahooMailNeo@web121906.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Not sure but looks like a design by Chris Garner. ? Greg ? ? ? ________________________________ From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 11:38 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Unique submersible A friend of mine just took this pic at Conch Harbor in Key West.? I've asked her to go back and get the info off the banner.? Very unique submersible.? Anyone familiar with it?? -Jim _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Untitled.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 45673 bytes Desc: not available URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Tue Oct 1 15:58:01 2013 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 15:58:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Unique submersible Message-ID: Thanks, Greg. I just received a text with the phone number. Jim In a message dated 10/1/2013 2:23:11 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: Not sure but looks like a design by Chris Garner. Greg From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 11:38 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Unique submersible A friend of mine just took this pic at Conch Harbor in Key West. I've asked her to go back and get the info off the banner. Very unique submersible. Anyone familiar with it? -Jim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Tue Oct 1 18:18:27 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 15:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Unique submersible In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1380665907.21329.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jim, That looks like the sub I saw on Daily Planet, it has 4 track drives on it. Hank From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 1:58:01 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Unique submersible Thanks, Greg.??I just received a text with the phone number. Jim In a message dated 10/1/2013 2:23:11 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: > >Not sure but looks like a design by Chris Garner. >? >Greg > >? >From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 11:38 AM >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Unique submersible > > > >A friend of mine just took this pic at Conch Harbor in Key West.? I've asked her to go back and get the info off the banner.? Very unique submersible.? Anyone familiar with it?? -Jim _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Tue Oct 1 17:21:56 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2013 17:21:56 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Unique submersible Message-ID: I just walked by it Jim. Haha. Katy and I are in key west. It looks like a glass bottom boat kind of thing. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneJimToddPsub at aol.com wrote:Thanks, Greg.??I just received a text with the phone number. Jim ? In a message dated 10/1/2013 2:23:11 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: Not sure but looks like a design by Chris Garner. ? Greg ? From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 11:38 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Unique submersible A friend of mine just took this pic at Conch Harbor in Key West.? I've asked her to go back and get the info off the banner.? Very unique submersible.? Anyone familiar with it?? -Jim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Tue Oct 1 21:54:35 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (Jim Todd) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 20:54:35 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Unique submersible In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought perhaps the lower portion was suspended from the upper portion which remained on the surface. The pontoon structure appears to be the launch/recovery platform. I'd like to see it to see if I'm understanding it correctly. See you tomorrow. Jim Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 1, 2013, at 4:21 PM, swaters wrote: > > I just walked by it Jim. Haha. Katy and I are in key west. It looks like a glass bottom boat kind of thing. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > JimToddPsub at aol.com wrote: > Thanks, Greg. I just received a text with the phone number. > Jim > > In a message dated 10/1/2013 2:23:11 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: > > Not sure but looks like a design by Chris Garner. > > Greg > > > From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 11:38 AM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Unique submersible > > A friend of mine just took this pic at Conch Harbor in Key West. I've asked her to go back and get the info off the banner. Very unique submersible. Anyone familiar with it? -Jim > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emile at airesearch.nl Fri Oct 4 15:10:53 2013 From: emile at airesearch.nl (Emile van Essen) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 21:10:53 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Unique submersible In-Reply-To: <20e04.45344762.3f7c4663@aol.com> Message-ID: Sure unique! They made really a job on the pontoon with lift platform. Emile _____ Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens JimToddPsub at aol.com Verzonden: dinsdag 1 oktober 2013 17:38 Aan: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Unique submersible A friend of mine just took this pic at Conch Harbor in Key West. I've asked her to go back and get the info off the banner. Very unique submersible. Anyone familiar with it? -Jim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 45673 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Sat Oct 5 18:07:28 2013 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 22:07:28 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] how to get acrylic Message-ID: <20131005150708.SM03204@[66.162.33.185]> Hope everybody is having a great time at the convention !? I need to get 8 acrylic viewports 1" thick by 6" in diameter.? How can I do that?? I have Jerry Stachiw's book and I could make the viewports myself if need be.? I also know of a company here in California, that Jerry used to deal with a lot, and they could do the annealing for me.? I just do not have access to the acrylic. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Oct 5 18:53:25 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 15:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] how to get acrylic In-Reply-To: <20131005150708.SM03204@[66.162.33.185]> References: <20131005150708.SM03204@[66.162.33.185]> Message-ID: <1381013605.50203.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Brian, I got mine in Vancouver BC.? Mine were 1.5in thick and cost about 100 dollars each.? I can send you there info if you need it. Hank From: brian To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, October 5, 2013 4:07:28 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] how to get acrylic Hope everybody is having a great time at the convention !? I need to get 8 acrylic viewports 1" thick by 6" in diameter.? How can I do that?? I have Jerry Stachiw's book and I could make the viewports myself if need be.? I also know of a company here in California, that Jerry used to deal with a lot, and they could do the annealing for me.? I just do not have access to the acrylic. Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Sat Oct 5 19:36:41 2013 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 23:36:41 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] how to get acrylic Message-ID: <201310051636305.SM06012@[66.162.33.185]> Hank,? Is that how thick your viewports are?? or did you reduce the size of them? Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 10/5/2013 3:53:25 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] how to get acrylicBrian,I got mine in Vancouver BC.? Mine were 1.5in thick and cost about 100 dollars each.? I can send you there info if you need it.HankFrom: brian To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, October 5, 2013 4:07:28 PMSubject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] how to get acrylicHope everybody is having a great time at the convention !? I need to get 8 acrylic viewports 1" thick by 6" in diameter.? How can I do that?? I have Jerry Stachiw's book and I could make the viewports myself if need be.? I also know of a company here in California, that Jerry used to deal with a lot, and they could do the annealing for me.? I just do not have access to the acrylic. Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Oct 5 20:12:32 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 17:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] how to get acrylic In-Reply-To: <201310051636305.SM06012@[66.162.33.185]> References: <201310051636305.SM06012@[66.162.33.185]> Message-ID: <1381018352.78440.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Brian, That is how thick the viewports are for my k350 CT.? I? bought two sets of windows from these people and they are Plexi Glass G as called for by the K plans.? I did not anneal them because I am assuming the extra thickness is intended to offset the annealing process.? If you want approved windows then the people approving them will supply the material and have a sample of material tested.? Hank From: brian To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, October 5, 2013 5:36:41 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] how to get acrylic Hank,? Is that how thick your viewports are?? or did you reduce the size of them? Brian -----Original Message----- From: "hank pronk" Sent 10/5/2013 3:53:25 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] how to get acrylic Brian, I got mine in Vancouver BC.? Mine were 1.5in thick and cost about 100 dollars each.? I can send you there info if you need it. Hank From: brian To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Saturday, October 5, 2013 4:07:28 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] how to get acrylic Hope everybody is having a great time at the convention !? I need to get 8 acrylic viewports 1" thick by 6" in diameter.? How can I do that?? I have Jerry Stachiw's book and I could make the viewports myself if need be.? I also know of a company here in California, that Jerry used to deal with a lot, and they could do the annealing for me.? I just do not have access to the acrylic. Brian _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Sun Oct 6 01:17:37 2013 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 01:17:37 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Message-ID: In Islamorada for the 2013 PSUBS convention, we tried a few days ago to dive the reefs off the Atlantic side of the island. After towing Snoopy out to the dive site, I had to call off the dive because a three foot chop made it unsafe to board. I made it aboard myself, but water was splashing over the hatch land, and with the weight of a second person it would have been touch and go. When their hatches are open, these little boats are like holes in the water just waiting to be filled up by the next wave. Three foot waves are not large, and they are entirely normal a few miles from shore, but they are just beyond practical conditions for Snoopy. For our second attempt on the reefs we changed tactics, deciding to board at the boat ramp and make the tow under a closed hatch. This would guarantee a dive regardless of wave conditions, but also introduce a new challenge. With a temperature of 89 degrees above the surface and 86 degrees below it, the problem was now how to avoid getting cooked during the tow. There was hardly a cloud in the sky, and Snoopy?s big acrylic dome hatch transforms her cabin into a greenhouse. The pilot, with his head in the middle of the dome, feels that he is under a giant magnifying glass. Hot air rises. Steve McQueen and I boarded at Harry Harris state park at 12:30, after having spent the morning at the local school giving four hundred local children a tour of the sub. Snoopy?s payload can be maximized by adding buoyancy spheres. We installed every available one, and used their buoyancy to load twenty pounds of ice inside the cabin. Our support diver, Scott Waters, attached a white hotel towel over the dome with bungee cord, and then tied off the tow line. We set out, towed by Doug Suhr in his whaler, an ideal surface support vessel. He had fashioned a custom wooden frame that allowed towing from a point just aft of midships. That is where tugs and trawlers attach their tow lines, and it allowed the whaler to retain good control, whereas in the past I had found Snoopy often turned around the towboat when towed from the transom. The tow was unexpectedly interesting, because of the bottom rushing by and constantly changing scenery. Most of the time it would be sand and sea grass, but there were always changes and it would at times become more rocky, or turn to pure sand, and drop away or rise up to just a couple of feet from us. We rushed past or right through clouds of jellies. As Steve put it, it felt like an arcade game. I have no idea how hot it was inside the sub, but it was surely an outrageous number. Prior to departure we had applied detergent to the viewports to prevent them from fogging. That succeeded on the forward viewport, but with that single exception every other surface in the boat streamed water profusely. Every ten minutes or so I would pick up a rapidly dwindling bag of ice and give it a hug, rest it on the back of my neck, or wear it as a hat. I went through five bottles of drinking water. Between the rolling of the boat, and the heat and humidity, I found myself getting a bit woozy. It was not sea sickness so much as a feeling of light-headedness, so we tried increasing the oxygen concentration in the cabin to counteract it. Between us we had been consuming ? liters of oxygen per minute, with the analyzer readings hovering around 19 percent and a fraction. We bumped up the flow to 4 liters per minute until the oxygen concentration reached 23 percent, a limit above which the cabin atmosphere would have become a fire hazard. That is only two percent above normal, but it made us both feel perceptibly better. We arrived at the dive site two hours after closing the hatch, and rather incredibly only four minutes after our target time of low tide. The twenty pounds of ice had all melted. Our normal tow speed is three knots, and the distance was only four miles, but some ?hatch closed? time was spent getting underway, some was spent on a stop to re-position the towel when it was displaced by waves washing over the dome, and some was spent on the final locating of the site. Doug anchored the whaler and Scott swam over to remove our towel sunshade, and to attach a video camera to the sub. In the previous few days the heat and humidity had already led to the failure of a depth sounder and a compass, so I had decided not to risk the good camera inside the sub. In tropical climates at least, the cabin is a very dangerous place for electronics. We initiated our dive and tested communications as soon as the transducer went under water. The gear worked, yet the communications were very faint. Snoopy?s transducers are mounted above the hull and immediately behind the conning tower. Being just beneath the surface and pointed in the direction of the whaler, the transducer?s line of sight to the boat was blocked by the conning tower. Once at depth the communications were loud and clear. The reef was unfortunately not healthy, as all reefs in this part of the world, yet it was absolutely fantastic compared to the lakes Snoopy normally dives in. There were large sponges, fish, and interesting terrain. In particular, we found ?streets? of sand running between raised mounds of coral on either side, reminiscent of scenes in the movie 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Visibility was about fifty feet. In Snoopy, almost all the viewing underwater is done through the bow viewport. Through the dome it is very hard to see the bottom unless diving alongside a wall or quite high terrain, and even in that scenario optical distortion causes features to appear very small and far off. Nonetheless, while I could hardly see the bottom through the dome, I did see a column of bubbles rising in the distance and steered Snoopy in their direction. It was Scott, who had found a lost anchor. He tied it to Snoopy?s pickup arm, and we blew some air into the ballast tanks and delivered it to the boat. We continued wandering the bottom, sometimes letting the current waft us along sideways and other times using the stern thruster to follow the ?sand roads?. These gradually led into deeper water, and we followed them hoping for the continental shelf drop-off that is only a short distance from Pickles reef. We started at thirty feet, and followed these paths down to a little over fifty feet, but unfortunately did not make it as far as the drop-off. Snoopy was ballasted ever so slightly buoyant, perhaps just a pound or two. One side thruster was locked in a straight down position, the other slightly inclined to counter the rotation induced by the props. Indeed the props only needed to turn very slowly to maintain depth, as if turned by hand instead of by a motor. To slowly rise I would shut them off, or I would speed them up to descend. The side thruster throttle acted as a ?depth knob?, allowing depth to be controlled with an accuracy of a couple of inches. Laying prone and looking out of the forward viewport, Steve had a good view of upcoming terrain. He acted as observer, calling out details about what lay ahead and asking for port or starboard headings and altitude adjustments. One tries to stay close to the bottom in order to see it better, but not touch anything in order to avoid damaging the reef. He took a turn at the controls as well, which in Snoopy does not mean that we changed places, but rather that we passed the remote controller between us. At one point we lost communications with the surface. We were to learn later that the whaler had re-positioned to follow us, and in doing so ran over its transducer cable, severing it and losing the transducer. The whaler could have tracked us by our acoustic pinger, but instead simply followed the bubbles of our support divers, who were following us by sight in the clear water. After an hour and a half of contented wandering, we suddenly sensed that the stern thruster had lost power. A moment later we both noticed a smell of burning. I turned off power to the stern thruster speed control, looked up to ensure we were not under the whaler, and immediately initiated a ballast blow, which gives a much faster rate of ascent than the thrusters. We could have continued maneuvering on side thrusters only, but it seemed prudent to call the dive. Afterwards I would discover that a little piece of fan coral had been sucked in by the stern thruster, and wedged between the propeller and its shroud. It was very tough material, and it locked up the thruster causing its speed controller to burn out. Although the speed controllers are supposed to have over-current protection, I will be adding breakers in the near future. One more surprise awaited us during the tow back to shore. After about an hour of towing, we had reached a spot at which the waves were lower, and we were on the radio to the whaler planning to pause the tow and transfer to her. But just then there was suddenly a very loud pop in the cabin, and my immediate thought was of a ruptured high pressure line. It was followed a second later by another equally loud pop. I was puzzled by the fact my ears were not registering any increase in cabin pressure, when I saw Steve?s life preserver inflating. These life preservers are of the type that resembles suspenders, inflated by a CO2 cartridge which Steve?s movement had accidentally triggered. For a moment it looked like his PFD might strangle him in the tight space, but he managed to wriggle out of it. I?ll be looking at some way to secure the rip cord on these PFDs, to make accidental deployment a little less likely. There is precious little space in Snoopy under normal conditions, but with an inflated PFD the lack of space becomes almost comical. Finally we came aboard the whaler. Being in the tower, I stowed my seat, climbed out, and closed the hatch quickly behind me. This allowed Steve to reposition himself into the tower without fear of being swamped while doing so. The hatch opened again, Steve jumped out, and we were both on deck. It had been five hours since we closed the hatch. It was only once back on the whaler I saw Steve was quite hungry. It was six in the evening, and he had avoided eating anything all day, anticipating that it would be a long dive and knowing that Snoopy has no head. Now that is dedication! Cheers, Alec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hc.fulton at gmail.com Sun Oct 6 02:04:28 2013 From: hc.fulton at gmail.com (Hugh Fulton) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 19:04:28 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> Great tale. You should take up writing. Most enjoyable and I could picture the whole thing. Best wishes Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth Sent: Sunday, 6 October 2013 6:18 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In Islamorada for the 2013 PSUBS convention, we tried a few days ago to dive the reefs off the Atlantic side of the island. After towing Snoopy out to the dive site, I had to call off the dive because a three foot chop made it unsafe to board. I made it aboard myself, but water was splashing over the hatch land, and with the weight of a second person it would have been touch and go. When their hatches are open, these little boats are like holes in the water just waiting to be filled up by the next wave. Three foot waves are not large, and they are entirely normal a few miles from shore, but they are just beyond practical conditions for Snoopy. For our second attempt on the reefs we changed tactics, deciding to board at the boat ramp and make the tow under a closed hatch. This would guarantee a dive regardless of wave conditions, but also introduce a new challenge. With a temperature of 89 degrees above the surface and 86 degrees below it, the problem was now how to avoid getting cooked during the tow. There was hardly a cloud in the sky, and Snoopy?s big acrylic dome hatch transforms her cabin into a greenhouse. The pilot, with his head in the middle of the dome, feels that he is under a giant magnifying glass. Hot air rises. Steve McQueen and I boarded at Harry Harris state park at 12:30, after having spent the morning at the local school giving four hundred local children a tour of the sub. Snoopy?s payload can be maximized by adding buoyancy spheres. We installed every available one, and used their buoyancy to load twenty pounds of ice inside the cabin. Our support diver, Scott Waters, attached a white hotel towel over the dome with bungee cord, and then tied off the tow line. We set out, towed by Doug Suhr in his whaler, an ideal surface support vessel. He had fashioned a custom wooden frame that allowed towing from a point just aft of midships. That is where tugs and trawlers attach their tow lines, and it allowed the whaler to retain good control, whereas in the past I had found Snoopy often turned around the towboat when towed from the transom. The tow was unexpectedly interesting, because of the bottom rushing by and constantly changing scenery. Most of the time it would be sand and sea grass, but there were always changes and it would at times become more rocky, or turn to pure sand, and drop away or rise up to just a couple of feet from us. We rushed past or right through clouds of jellies. As Steve put it, it felt like an arcade game. I have no idea how hot it was inside the sub, but it was surely an outrageous number. Prior to departure we had applied detergent to the viewports to prevent them from fogging. That succeeded on the forward viewport, but with that single exception every other surface in the boat streamed water profusely. Every ten minutes or so I would pick up a rapidly dwindling bag of ice and give it a hug, rest it on the back of my neck, or wear it as a hat. I went through five bottles of drinking water. Between the rolling of the boat, and the heat and humidity, I found myself getting a bit woozy. It was not sea sickness so much as a feeling of light-headedness, so we tried increasing the oxygen concentration in the cabin to counteract it. Between us we had been consuming ? liters of oxygen per minute, with the analyzer readings hovering around 19 percent and a fraction. We bumped up the flow to 4 liters per minute until the oxygen concentration reached 23 percent, a limit above which the cabin atmosphere would have become a fire hazard. That is only two percent above normal, but it made us both feel perceptibly better. We arrived at the dive site two hours after closing the hatch, and rather incredibly only four minutes after our target time of low tide. The twenty pounds of ice had all melted. Our normal tow speed is three knots, and the distance was only four miles, but some ?hatch closed? time was spent getting underway, some was spent on a stop to re-position the towel when it was displaced by waves washing over the dome, and some was spent on the final locating of the site. Doug anchored the whaler and Scott swam over to remove our towel sunshade, and to attach a video camera to the sub. In the previous few days the heat and humidity had already led to the failure of a depth sounder and a compass, so I had decided not to risk the good camera inside the sub. In tropical climates at least, the cabin is a very dangerous place for electronics. We initiated our dive and tested communications as soon as the transducer went under water. The gear worked, yet the communications were very faint. Snoopy?s transducers are mounted above the hull and immediately behind the conning tower. Being just beneath the surface and pointed in the direction of the whaler, the transducer?s line of sight to the boat was blocked by the conning tower. Once at depth the communications were loud and clear. The reef was unfortunately not healthy, as all reefs in this part of the world, yet it was absolutely fantastic compared to the lakes Snoopy normally dives in. There were large sponges, fish, and interesting terrain. In particular, we found ?streets? of sand running between raised mounds of coral on either side, reminiscent of scenes in the movie 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Visibility was about fifty feet. In Snoopy, almost all the viewing underwater is done through the bow viewport. Through the dome it is very hard to see the bottom unless diving alongside a wall or quite high terrain, and even in that scenario optical distortion causes features to appear very small and far off. Nonetheless, while I could hardly see the bottom through the dome, I did see a column of bubbles rising in the distance and steered Snoopy in their direction. It was Scott, who had found a lost anchor. He tied it to Snoopy?s pickup arm, and we blew some air into the ballast tanks and delivered it to the boat. We continued wandering the bottom, sometimes letting the current waft us along sideways and other times using the stern thruster to follow the ?sand roads?. These gradually led into deeper water, and we followed them hoping for the continental shelf drop-off that is only a short distance from Pickles reef. We started at thirty feet, and followed these paths down to a little over fifty feet, but unfortunately did not make it as far as the drop-off. Snoopy was ballasted ever so slightly buoyant, perhaps just a pound or two. One side thruster was locked in a straight down position, the other slightly inclined to counter the rotation induced by the props. Indeed the props only needed to turn very slowly to maintain depth, as if turned by hand instead of by a motor. To slowly rise I would shut them off, or I would speed them up to descend. The side thruster throttle acted as a ?depth knob?, allowing depth to be controlled with an accuracy of a couple of inches. Laying prone and looking out of the forward viewport, Steve had a good view of upcoming terrain. He acted as observer, calling out details about what lay ahead and asking for port or starboard headings and altitude adjustments. One tries to stay close to the bottom in order to see it better, but not touch anything in order to avoid damaging the reef. He took a turn at the controls as well, which in Snoopy does not mean that we changed places, but rather that we passed the remote controller between us. At one point we lost communications with the surface. We were to learn later that the whaler had re-positioned to follow us, and in doing so ran over its transducer cable, severing it and losing the transducer. The whaler could have tracked us by our acoustic pinger, but instead simply followed the bubbles of our support divers, who were following us by sight in the clear water. After an hour and a half of contented wandering, we suddenly sensed that the stern thruster had lost power. A moment later we both noticed a smell of burning. I turned off power to the stern thruster speed control, looked up to ensure we were not under the whaler, and immediately initiated a ballast blow, which gives a much faster rate of ascent than the thrusters. We could have continued maneuvering on side thrusters only, but it seemed prudent to call the dive. Afterwards I would discover that a little piece of fan coral had been sucked in by the stern thruster, and wedged between the propeller and its shroud. It was very tough material, and it locked up the thruster causing its speed controller to burn out. Although the speed controllers are supposed to have over-current protection, I will be adding breakers in the near future. One more surprise awaited us during the tow back to shore. After about an hour of towing, we had reached a spot at which the waves were lower, and we were on the radio to the whaler planning to pause the tow and transfer to her. But just then there was suddenly a very loud pop in the cabin, and my immediate thought was of a ruptured high pressure line. It was followed a second later by another equally loud pop. I was puzzled by the fact my ears were not registering any increase in cabin pressure, when I saw Steve?s life preserver inflating. These life preservers are of the type that resembles suspenders, inflated by a CO2 cartridge which Steve?s movement had accidentally triggered. For a moment it looked like his PFD might strangle him in the tight space, but he managed to wriggle out of it. I?ll be looking at some way to secure the rip cord on these PFDs, to make accidental deployment a little less likely. There is precious little space in Snoopy under normal conditions, but with an inflated PFD the lack of space becomes almost comical. Finally we came aboard the whaler. Being in the tower, I stowed my seat, climbed out, and closed the hatch quickly behind me. This allowed Steve to reposition himself into the tower without fear of being swamped while doing so. The hatch opened again, Steve jumped out, and we were both on deck. It had been five hours since we closed the hatch. It was only once back on the whaler I saw Steve was quite hungry. It was six in the evening, and he had avoided eating anything all day, anticipating that it would be a long dive and knowing that Snoopy has no head. Now that is dedication! Cheers, Alec __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8880 (20131005) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 09:43:20 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 06:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1381067000.33539.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Alec, ? I second Hugh's remarks, well written! ? These are my conditions, that I will need to contend with, ?in reading this I come to two absolute conclusions with regard to redesign. ? 1) Mitigating the swamp risk. ? 2) Aggressive enviromental control, (This means AC and condensation control, which means in turn an upward design spiral) ? When you get back, a wish list would be most helpful ? ? Joe ________________________________ From: Alec Smyth To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 1:17 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In Islamorada for the 2013 PSUBS convention, we tried a few days ago to dive the reefs off the Atlantic side of the island. After towing Snoopy out to the dive site, I had to call off the dive because a three foot chop made it unsafe to board. I made it aboard myself, but water was splashing over the hatch land, and with the weight of a second person it would have been touch and go. When their hatches are open, these little boats are like holes in the water just waiting to be filled up by the next wave. Three foot waves are not large, and they are entirely normal a few miles from shore, but they are just beyond practical conditions for Snoopy. For our second attempt on the reefs we changed tactics, deciding to board at the boat ramp and make the tow under a closed hatch. This would guarantee a dive regardless of wave conditions, but also introduce a new challenge. With a temperature of 89 degrees above the surface and 86 degrees below it, the problem was now how to avoid getting cooked during the tow. There was hardly a cloud in the sky, and Snoopy?s big acrylic dome hatch transforms her cabin into a greenhouse. The pilot, with his head in the middle of the dome, feels that he is under a giant magnifying glass. Hot air rises. Steve McQueen and I boarded at Harry Harris state park at 12:30, after having spent the morning at the local school giving four hundred local children a tour of the sub. Snoopy?s payload can be maximized by adding buoyancy spheres. We installed every available one, and used their buoyancy to load twenty pounds of ice inside the cabin. Our support diver, Scott Waters, attached a white hotel towel over the dome with bungee cord, and then tied off the tow line. We set out, towed by Doug Suhr in his whaler, an ideal surface support vessel. He had fashioned a custom wooden frame that allowed towing from a point just aft of midships. That is where tugs and trawlers attach their tow lines, and it allowed the whaler to retain good control, whereas in the past I had found Snoopy often turned around the towboat when towed from the transom. The tow was unexpectedly interesting, because of the bottom rushing by and constantly changing scenery. Most of the time it would be sand and sea grass, but there were always changes and it would at times become more rocky, or turn to pure sand, and drop away or rise up to just a couple of feet from us. We rushed past or right through clouds of jellies. As Steve put it, it felt like an arcade game. I have no idea how hot it was inside the sub, but it was surely an outrageous number. Prior to departure we had applied detergent to the viewports to prevent them from fogging. That succeeded on the forward viewport, but with that single exception every other surface in the boat streamed water profusely. Every ten minutes or so I would pick up a rapidly dwindling bag of ice and give it a hug, rest it on the back of my neck, or wear it as a hat. I went through five bottles of drinking water. Between the rolling of the boat, and the heat and humidity, I found myself getting a bit woozy. It was not sea sickness so much as a feeling of light-headedness, so we tried increasing the oxygen concentration in the cabin to counteract it. Between us we had been consuming ? liters of oxygen per minute, with the analyzer readings hovering around 19 percent and a fraction. We bumped up the flow to 4 liters per minute until the oxygen concentration reached 23 percent, a limit above which the cabin atmosphere would have become a fire hazard. That is only two percent above normal, but it made us both feel perceptibly better. We arrived at the dive site two hours after closing the hatch, and rather incredibly only four minutes after our target time of low tide. The twenty pounds of ice had all melted. Our normal tow speed is three knots, and the distance was only four miles, but some ?hatch closed? time was spent getting underway, some was spent on a stop to re-position the towel when it was displaced by waves washing over the dome, and some was spent on the final locating of the site.? Doug anchored the whaler and Scott swam over to remove our towel sunshade, and to attach a video camera to the sub. In the previous few days the heat and humidity had already led to the failure of a depth sounder and a compass, so I had decided not to risk the good camera inside the sub. In tropical climates at least, the cabin is a very dangerous place for electronics. We initiated our dive and tested communications as soon as the transducer went under water. The gear worked, yet the communications were very faint. Snoopy?s transducers are mounted above the hull and immediately behind the conning tower. Being just beneath the surface and pointed in the direction of the whaler, the transducer?s line of sight to the boat was blocked by the conning tower. Once at depth the communications were loud and clear. The reef was unfortunately not healthy, as all reefs in this part of the world, yet it was absolutely fantastic compared to the lakes Snoopy normally dives in. There were large sponges, fish, and interesting terrain. In particular, we found ?streets? of sand running between raised mounds of coral on either side, reminiscent of scenes in the movie 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Visibility was about fifty feet. In Snoopy, almost all the viewing underwater is done through the bow viewport. Through the dome it is very hard to see the bottom unless diving alongside a wall or quite high terrain, and even in that scenario optical distortion causes features to appear very small and far off. Nonetheless, while I could hardly see the bottom through the dome, I did see a column of bubbles rising in the distance and steered Snoopy in their direction. It was Scott, who had found a lost anchor. He tied it to Snoopy?s pickup arm, and we blew some air into the ballast tanks and delivered it to the boat. We continued wandering the bottom, sometimes letting the current waft us along sideways and other times using the stern thruster to follow the ?sand roads?. These gradually led into deeper water, and we followed them hoping for the continental shelf drop-off that is only a short distance from Pickles reef. We started at thirty feet, and followed these paths down to a little over fifty feet, but unfortunately did not make it as far as the drop-off. Snoopy was ballasted ever so slightly buoyant, perhaps just a pound or two. One side thruster was locked in a straight down position, the other slightly inclined to counter the rotation induced by the props. Indeed the props only needed to turn very slowly to maintain depth, as if turned by hand instead of by a motor.?To slowly rise I would shut them off, or I would speed them up to descend. The side thruster throttle acted as a ?depth knob?, allowing depth to be controlled with an accuracy of a couple of inches. Laying prone and looking out of the forward viewport, Steve had a good view of upcoming terrain. He acted as observer, calling out details about what lay ahead and asking for port or starboard headings and altitude adjustments. One tries to stay close to the bottom in order to see it better, but not touch anything in order to avoid damaging the reef. He took a turn at the controls as well, which in Snoopy does not mean that we changed places, but rather that we passed the remote controller between us.? At one point we lost communications with the surface. We were to learn later that the whaler had re-positioned to follow us, and in doing so ran over its transducer cable, severing it and losing the transducer. The whaler could have tracked us by our acoustic pinger, but instead simply followed the bubbles of our support divers, who were following us by sight in the clear water. After an hour and a half of contented wandering, we suddenly sensed that the stern thruster had lost power. A moment later we both noticed a smell of burning. I turned off power to the stern thruster speed control, looked up to ensure we were not under the whaler, and immediately initiated a ballast blow, which gives a much faster rate of ascent than the thrusters. We could have continued maneuvering on side thrusters only, but it seemed prudent to call the dive. Afterwards I would discover that a little piece of fan coral had been sucked in by the stern thruster, and wedged between the propeller and its shroud. It was very tough material, and it locked up the thruster causing its speed controller to burn out. Although the speed controllers are supposed to have over-current protection, I will be adding breakers in the near future. One more surprise awaited us during the tow back to shore. After about an hour of towing, we had reached a spot at which the waves were lower, and we were on the radio to the whaler planning to pause the tow and transfer to her. But just then there was suddenly a very loud pop in the cabin, and my immediate thought was of a ruptured high pressure line. It was followed a second later by another equally loud pop. I was puzzled by the fact my ears were not registering any increase in cabin pressure, when I saw Steve?s life preserver inflating. These life preservers are of the type that resembles suspenders, inflated by a CO2 cartridge which Steve?s movement had accidentally triggered. For a moment it looked like his PFD might strangle him in the tight space, but he managed to wriggle out of it. I?ll be looking at some way to secure the rip cord on these PFDs, to make accidental deployment a little less likely. There is precious little space in Snoopy under normal conditions, but with an inflated PFD the lack of space becomes almost comical. Finally we came aboard the whaler. Being in the tower, I stowed my seat, climbed out, and closed the hatch quickly behind me. This allowed Steve to reposition himself into the tower without fear of being swamped while doing so. The hatch opened again, Steve jumped out, and we were both on deck. It had been five hours since we closed the hatch. It was only once back on the whaler I saw Steve was quite hungry. It was six in the evening, and he had avoided eating anything all day, anticipating that it would be a long dive and knowing that Snoopy has no head. Now that is dedication! Cheers, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 10:36:39 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 07:36:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <1381067000.33539.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381067000.33539.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381070199.26505.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ....and given a choice between lengthening or widening for increased interior volume, (keeping in mind tow-ability and trailer-ability) ? What is the general consensus? ? Joe ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Alec, ? I second Hugh's remarks, well written! ? These are my conditions, that I will need to contend with, ?in reading this I come to two absolute conclusions with regard to redesign. ? 1) Mitigating the swamp risk. ? 2) Aggressive enviromental control, (This means AC and condensation control, which means in turn an upward design spiral) ? When you get back, a wish list would be most helpful ? ? Joe ________________________________ From: Alec Smyth To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 1:17 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In Islamorada for the 2013 PSUBS convention, we tried a few days ago to dive the reefs off the Atlantic side of the island. After towing Snoopy out to the dive site, I had to call off the dive because a three foot chop made it unsafe to board. I made it aboard myself, but water was splashing over the hatch land, and with the weight of a second person it would have been touch and go. When their hatches are open, these little boats are like holes in the water just waiting to be filled up by the next wave. Three foot waves are not large, and they are entirely normal a few miles from shore, but they are just beyond practical conditions for Snoopy. For our second attempt on the reefs we changed tactics, deciding to board at the boat ramp and make the tow under a closed hatch. This would guarantee a dive regardless of wave conditions, but also introduce a new challenge. With a temperature of 89 degrees above the surface and 86 degrees below it, the problem was now how to avoid getting cooked during the tow. There was hardly a cloud in the sky, and Snoopy?s big acrylic dome hatch transforms her cabin into a greenhouse. The pilot, with his head in the middle of the dome, feels that he is under a giant magnifying glass. Hot air rises. Steve McQueen and I boarded at Harry Harris state park at 12:30, after having spent the morning at the local school giving four hundred local children a tour of the sub. Snoopy?s payload can be maximized by adding buoyancy spheres. We installed every available one, and used their buoyancy to load twenty pounds of ice inside the cabin. Our support diver, Scott Waters, attached a white hotel towel over the dome with bungee cord, and then tied off the tow line. We set out, towed by Doug Suhr in his whaler, an ideal surface support vessel. He had fashioned a custom wooden frame that allowed towing from a point just aft of midships. That is where tugs and trawlers attach their tow lines, and it allowed the whaler to retain good control, whereas in the past I had found Snoopy often turned around the towboat when towed from the transom. The tow was unexpectedly interesting, because of the bottom rushing by and constantly changing scenery. Most of the time it would be sand and sea grass, but there were always changes and it would at times become more rocky, or turn to pure sand, and drop away or rise up to just a couple of feet from us. We rushed past or right through clouds of jellies. As Steve put it, it felt like an arcade game. I have no idea how hot it was inside the sub, but it was surely an outrageous number. Prior to departure we had applied detergent to the viewports to prevent them from fogging. That succeeded on the forward viewport, but with that single exception every other surface in the boat streamed water profusely. Every ten minutes or so I would pick up a rapidly dwindling bag of ice and give it a hug, rest it on the back of my neck, or wear it as a hat. I went through five bottles of drinking water. Between the rolling of the boat, and the heat and humidity, I found myself getting a bit woozy. It was not sea sickness so much as a feeling of light-headedness, so we tried increasing the oxygen concentration in the cabin to counteract it. Between us we had been consuming ? liters of oxygen per minute, with the analyzer readings hovering around 19 percent and a fraction. We bumped up the flow to 4 liters per minute until the oxygen concentration reached 23 percent, a limit above which the cabin atmosphere would have become a fire hazard. That is only two percent above normal, but it made us both feel perceptibly better. We arrived at the dive site two hours after closing the hatch, and rather incredibly only four minutes after our target time of low tide. The twenty pounds of ice had all melted. Our normal tow speed is three knots, and the distance was only four miles, but some ?hatch closed? time was spent getting underway, some was spent on a stop to re-position the towel when it was displaced by waves washing over the dome, and some was spent on the final locating of the site.? Doug anchored the whaler and Scott swam over to remove our towel sunshade, and to attach a video camera to the sub. In the previous few days the heat and humidity had already led to the failure of a depth sounder and a compass, so I had decided not to risk the good camera inside the sub. In tropical climates at least, the cabin is a very dangerous place for electronics. We initiated our dive and tested communications as soon as the transducer went under water. The gear worked, yet the communications were very faint. Snoopy?s transducers are mounted above the hull and immediately behind the conning tower. Being just beneath the surface and pointed in the direction of the whaler, the transducer?s line of sight to the boat was blocked by the conning tower. Once at depth the communications were loud and clear. The reef was unfortunately not healthy, as all reefs in this part of the world, yet it was absolutely fantastic compared to the lakes Snoopy normally dives in. There were large sponges, fish, and interesting terrain. In particular, we found ?streets? of sand running between raised mounds of coral on either side, reminiscent of scenes in the movie 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Visibility was about fifty feet. In Snoopy, almost all the viewing underwater is done through the bow viewport. Through the dome it is very hard to see the bottom unless diving alongside a wall or quite high terrain, and even in that scenario optical distortion causes features to appear very small and far off. Nonetheless, while I could hardly see the bottom through the dome, I did see a column of bubbles rising in the distance and steered Snoopy in their direction. It was Scott, who had found a lost anchor. He tied it to Snoopy?s pickup arm, and we blew some air into the ballast tanks and delivered it to the boat. We continued wandering the bottom, sometimes letting the current waft us along sideways and other times using the stern thruster to follow the ?sand roads?. These gradually led into deeper water, and we followed them hoping for the continental shelf drop-off that is only a short distance from Pickles reef. We started at thirty feet, and followed these paths down to a little over fifty feet, but unfortunately did not make it as far as the drop-off. Snoopy was ballasted ever so slightly buoyant, perhaps just a pound or two. One side thruster was locked in a straight down position, the other slightly inclined to counter the rotation induced by the props. Indeed the props only needed to turn very slowly to maintain depth, as if turned by hand instead of by a motor.?To slowly rise I would shut them off, or I would speed them up to descend. The side thruster throttle acted as a ?depth knob?, allowing depth to be controlled with an accuracy of a couple of inches. Laying prone and looking out of the forward viewport, Steve had a good view of upcoming terrain. He acted as observer, calling out details about what lay ahead and asking for port or starboard headings and altitude adjustments. One tries to stay close to the bottom in order to see it better, but not touch anything in order to avoid damaging the reef. He took a turn at the controls as well, which in Snoopy does not mean that we changed places, but rather that we passed the remote controller between us.? At one point we lost communications with the surface. We were to learn later that the whaler had re-positioned to follow us, and in doing so ran over its transducer cable, severing it and losing the transducer. The whaler could have tracked us by our acoustic pinger, but instead simply followed the bubbles of our support divers, who were following us by sight in the clear water. After an hour and a half of contented wandering, we suddenly sensed that the stern thruster had lost power. A moment later we both noticed a smell of burning. I turned off power to the stern thruster speed control, looked up to ensure we were not under the whaler, and immediately initiated a ballast blow, which gives a much faster rate of ascent than the thrusters. We could have continued maneuvering on side thrusters only, but it seemed prudent to call the dive. Afterwards I would discover that a little piece of fan coral had been sucked in by the stern thruster, and wedged between the propeller and its shroud. It was very tough material, and it locked up the thruster causing its speed controller to burn out. Although the speed controllers are supposed to have over-current protection, I will be adding breakers in the near future. One more surprise awaited us during the tow back to shore. After about an hour of towing, we had reached a spot at which the waves were lower, and we were on the radio to the whaler planning to pause the tow and transfer to her. But just then there was suddenly a very loud pop in the cabin, and my immediate thought was of a ruptured high pressure line. It was followed a second later by another equally loud pop. I was puzzled by the fact my ears were not registering any increase in cabin pressure, when I saw Steve?s life preserver inflating. These life preservers are of the type that resembles suspenders, inflated by a CO2 cartridge which Steve?s movement had accidentally triggered. For a moment it looked like his PFD might strangle him in the tight space, but he managed to wriggle out of it. I?ll be looking at some way to secure the rip cord on these PFDs, to make accidental deployment a little less likely. There is precious little space in Snoopy under normal conditions, but with an inflated PFD the lack of space becomes almost comical. Finally we came aboard the whaler. Being in the tower, I stowed my seat, climbed out, and closed the hatch quickly behind me. This allowed Steve to reposition himself into the tower without fear of being swamped while doing so. The hatch opened again, Steve jumped out, and we were both on deck. It had been five hours since we closed the hatch. It was only once back on the whaler I saw Steve was quite hungry. It was six in the evening, and he had avoided eating anything all day, anticipating that it would be a long dive and knowing that Snoopy has no head. Now that is dedication! Cheers, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Oct 6 11:45:33 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 08:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <1381070199.26505.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381067000.33539.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381070199.26505.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381074333.77224.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, I had not given much consideration to tow ability until I did deep tests on my small sub.? It tows like a brick and takes forever to get to a desired spot.??I would recommend increasing diameter rather than length.? For one, working inside a 36in shell is very cramped.? A 44in to 48in?shell is?ideal, without going crazy on volume.? Today I painted the interior of Gamma and I was able to sit upright with my feet in the battery boxes and it was very comfortable.? Gamma is 42in dia. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 8:36:39 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef ....and given a choice between lengthening or widening for increased interior volume, (keeping in mind tow-ability and trailer-ability) ? What is the general consensus? ? Joe From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Alec, ? I second Hugh's remarks, well written! ? These are my conditions, that I will need to contend with, ?in reading this I come to two absolute conclusions with regard to redesign. ? 1) Mitigating the swamp risk. ? 2) Aggressive enviromental control, (This means AC and condensation control, which means in turn an upward design spiral) ? When you get back, a wish list would be most helpful ? ? Joe From: Alec Smyth To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 1:17 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In Islamorada for the 2013 PSUBS convention, we tried a few days ago to dive the reefs off the Atlantic side of the island. After towing Snoopy out to the dive site, I had to call off the dive because a three foot chop made it unsafe to board. I made it aboard myself, but water was splashing over the hatch land, and with the weight of a second person it would have been touch and go. When their hatches are open, these little boats are like holes in the water just waiting to be filled up by the next wave. Three foot waves are not large, and they are entirely normal a few miles from shore, but they are just beyond practical conditions for Snoopy. For our second attempt on the reefs we changed tactics, deciding to board at the boat ramp and make the tow under a closed hatch. This would guarantee a dive regardless of wave conditions, but also introduce a new challenge. With a temperature of 89 degrees above the surface and 86 degrees below it, the problem was now how to avoid getting cooked during the tow. There was hardly a cloud in the sky, and Snoopy?s big acrylic dome hatch transforms her cabin into a greenhouse. The pilot, with his head in the middle of the dome, feels that he is under a giant magnifying glass. Hot air rises. Steve McQueen and I boarded at Harry Harris state park at 12:30, after having spent the morning at the local school giving four hundred local children a tour of the sub. Snoopy?s payload can be maximized by adding buoyancy spheres. We installed every available one, and used their buoyancy to load twenty pounds of ice inside the cabin. Our support diver, Scott Waters, attached a white hotel towel over the dome with bungee cord, and then tied off the tow line. We set out, towed by Doug Suhr in his whaler, an ideal surface support vessel. He had fashioned a custom wooden frame that allowed towing from a point just aft of midships. That is where tugs and trawlers attach their tow lines, and it allowed the whaler to retain good control, whereas in the past I had found Snoopy often turned around the towboat when towed from the transom. The tow was unexpectedly interesting, because of the bottom rushing by and constantly changing scenery. Most of the time it would be sand and sea grass, but there were always changes and it would at times become more rocky, or turn to pure sand, and drop away or rise up to just a couple of feet from us. We rushed past or right through clouds of jellies. As Steve put it, it felt like an arcade game. I have no idea how hot it was inside the sub, but it was surely an outrageous number. Prior to departure we had applied detergent to the viewports to prevent them from fogging. That succeeded on the forward viewport, but with that single exception every other surface in the boat streamed water profusely. Every ten minutes or so I would pick up a rapidly dwindling bag of ice and give it a hug, rest it on the back of my neck, or wear it as a hat. I went through five bottles of drinking water. Between the rolling of the boat, and the heat and humidity, I found myself getting a bit woozy. It was not sea sickness so much as a feeling of light-headedness, so we tried increasing the oxygen concentration in the cabin to counteract it. Between us we had been consuming ? liters of oxygen per minute, with the analyzer readings hovering around 19 percent and a fraction. We bumped up the flow to 4 liters per minute until the oxygen concentration reached 23 percent, a limit above which the cabin atmosphere would have become a fire hazard. That is only two percent above normal, but it made us both feel perceptibly better. We arrived at the dive site two hours after closing the hatch, and rather incredibly only four minutes after our target time of low tide. The twenty pounds of ice had all melted. Our normal tow speed is three knots, and the distance was only four miles, but some ?hatch closed? time was spent getting underway, some was spent on a stop to re-position the towel when it was displaced by waves washing over the dome, and some was spent on the final locating of the site.? Doug anchored the whaler and Scott swam over to remove our towel sunshade, and to attach a video camera to the sub. In the previous few days the heat and humidity had already led to the failure of a depth sounder and a compass, so I had decided not to risk the good camera inside the sub. In tropical climates at least, the cabin is a very dangerous place for electronics. We initiated our dive and tested communications as soon as the transducer went under water. The gear worked, yet the communications were very faint. Snoopy?s transducers are mounted above the hull and immediately behind the conning tower. Being just beneath the surface and pointed in the direction of the whaler, the transducer?s line of sight to the boat was blocked by the conning tower. Once at depth the communications were loud and clear. The reef was unfortunately not healthy, as all reefs in this part of the world, yet it was absolutely fantastic compared to the lakes Snoopy normally dives in. There were large sponges, fish, and interesting terrain. In particular, we found ?streets? of sand running between raised mounds of coral on either side, reminiscent of scenes in the movie 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Visibility was about fifty feet. In Snoopy, almost all the viewing underwater is done through the bow viewport. Through the dome it is very hard to see the bottom unless diving alongside a wall or quite high terrain, and even in that scenario optical distortion causes features to appear very small and far off. Nonetheless, while I could hardly see the bottom through the dome, I did see a column of bubbles rising in the distance and steered Snoopy in their direction. It was Scott, who had found a lost anchor. He tied it to Snoopy?s pickup arm, and we blew some air into the ballast tanks and delivered it to the boat. We continued wandering the bottom, sometimes letting the current waft us along sideways and other times using the stern thruster to follow the ?sand roads?. These gradually led into deeper water, and we followed them hoping for the continental shelf drop-off that is only a short distance from Pickles reef. We started at thirty feet, and followed these paths down to a little over fifty feet, but unfortunately did not make it as far as the drop-off. Snoopy was ballasted ever so slightly buoyant, perhaps just a pound or two. One side thruster was locked in a straight down position, the other slightly inclined to counter the rotation induced by the props. Indeed the props only needed to turn very slowly to maintain depth, as if turned by hand instead of by a motor.?To slowly rise I would shut them off, or I would speed them up to descend. The side thruster throttle acted as a ?depth knob?, allowing depth to be controlled with an accuracy of a couple of inches. Laying prone and looking out of the forward viewport, Steve had a good view of upcoming terrain. He acted as observer, calling out details about what lay ahead and asking for port or starboard headings and altitude adjustments. One tries to stay close to the bottom in order to see it better, but not touch anything in order to avoid damaging the reef. He took a turn at the controls as well, which in Snoopy does not mean that we changed places, but rather that we passed the remote controller between us.? At one point we lost communications with the surface. We were to learn later that the whaler had re-positioned to follow us, and in doing so ran over its transducer cable, severing it and losing the transducer. The whaler could have tracked us by our acoustic pinger, but instead simply followed the bubbles of our support divers, who were following us by sight in the clear water. After an hour and a half of contented wandering, we suddenly sensed that the stern thruster had lost power. A moment later we both noticed a smell of burning. I turned off power to the stern thruster speed control, looked up to ensure we were not under the whaler, and immediately initiated a ballast blow, which gives a much faster rate of ascent than the thrusters. We could have continued maneuvering on side thrusters only, but it seemed prudent to call the dive. Afterwards I would discover that a little piece of fan coral had been sucked in by the stern thruster, and wedged between the propeller and its shroud. It was very tough material, and it locked up the thruster causing its speed controller to burn out. Although the speed controllers are supposed to have over-current protection, I will be adding breakers in the near future. One more surprise awaited us during the tow back to shore. After about an hour of towing, we had reached a spot at which the waves were lower, and we were on the radio to the whaler planning to pause the tow and transfer to her. But just then there was suddenly a very loud pop in the cabin, and my immediate thought was of a ruptured high pressure line. It was followed a second later by another equally loud pop. I was puzzled by the fact my ears were not registering any increase in cabin pressure, when I saw Steve?s life preserver inflating. These life preservers are of the type that resembles suspenders, inflated by a CO2 cartridge which Steve?s movement had accidentally triggered. For a moment it looked like his PFD might strangle him in the tight space, but he managed to wriggle out of it. I?ll be looking at some way to secure the rip cord on these PFDs, to make accidental deployment a little less likely. There is precious little space in Snoopy under normal conditions, but with an inflated PFD the lack of space becomes almost comical. Finally we came aboard the whaler. Being in the tower, I stowed my seat, climbed out, and closed the hatch quickly behind me. This allowed Steve to reposition himself into the tower without fear of being swamped while doing so. The hatch opened again, Steve jumped out, and we were both on deck. It had been five hours since we closed the hatch. It was only once back on the whaler I saw Steve was quite hungry. It was six in the evening, and he had avoided eating anything all day, anticipating that it would be a long dive and knowing that Snoopy has no head. Now that is dedication! Cheers, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greg at snyderemail.com Sun Oct 6 13:32:41 2013 From: greg at snyderemail.com (Gregory Snyder) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 12:32:41 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <1381070199.26505.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381067000.33539.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381070199.26505.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Wow thank you for this detailed account! I am sorry that yet again I could not attend but your note makes it feel like I was with you. Thanks! Best regards Greg On Oct 6, 2013, at 9:36 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > ....and given a choice between lengthening or widening for increased interior volume, (keeping in mind tow-ability and trailer-ability) > > What is the general consensus? > > Joe > > From: Joe Perkel > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 9:43 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef > > Alec, > > I second Hugh's remarks, well written! > > These are my conditions, that I will need to contend with, in reading this I come to two absolute conclusions with regard to redesign. > > 1) Mitigating the swamp risk. > > 2) Aggressive enviromental control, (This means AC and condensation control, which means in turn an upward design spiral) > > When you get back, a wish list would be most helpful > > > Joe > > From: Alec Smyth > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 1:17 AM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef > > In Islamorada for the 2013 PSUBS convention, we tried a few days ago to dive the reefs off the Atlantic side of the island. After towing Snoopy out to the dive site, I had to call off the dive because a three foot chop made it unsafe to board. I made it aboard myself, but water was splashing over the hatch land, and with the weight of a second person it would have been touch and go. When their hatches are open, these little boats are like holes in the water just waiting to be filled up by the next wave. Three foot waves are not large, and they are entirely normal a few miles from shore, but they are just beyond practical conditions for Snoopy. > For our second attempt on the reefs we changed tactics, deciding to board at the boat ramp and make the tow under a closed hatch. This would guarantee a dive regardless of wave conditions, but also introduce a new challenge. With a temperature of 89 degrees above the surface and 86 degrees below it, the problem was now how to avoid getting cooked during the tow. There was hardly a cloud in the sky, and Snoopy?s big acrylic dome hatch transforms her cabin into a greenhouse. The pilot, with his head in the middle of the dome, feels that he is under a giant magnifying glass. Hot air rises. > Steve McQueen and I boarded at Harry Harris state park at 12:30, after having spent the morning at the local school giving four hundred local children a tour of the sub. Snoopy?s payload can be maximized by adding buoyancy spheres. We installed every available one, and used their buoyancy to load twenty pounds of ice inside the cabin. Our support diver, Scott Waters, attached a white hotel towel over the dome with bungee cord, and then tied off the tow line. We set out, towed by Doug Suhr in his whaler, an ideal surface support vessel. He had fashioned a custom wooden frame that allowed towing from a point just aft of midships. That is where tugs and trawlers attach their tow lines, and it allowed the whaler to retain good control, whereas in the past I had found Snoopy often turned around the towboat when towed from the transom. > The tow was unexpectedly interesting, because of the bottom rushing by and constantly changing scenery. Most of the time it would be sand and sea grass, but there were always changes and it would at times become more rocky, or turn to pure sand, and drop away or rise up to just a couple of feet from us. We rushed past or right through clouds of jellies. As Steve put it, it felt like an arcade game. > I have no idea how hot it was inside the sub, but it was surely an outrageous number. Prior to departure we had applied detergent to the viewports to prevent them from fogging. That succeeded on the forward viewport, but with that single exception every other surface in the boat streamed water profusely. Every ten minutes or so I would pick up a rapidly dwindling bag of ice and give it a hug, rest it on the back of my neck, or wear it as a hat. I went through five bottles of drinking water. > Between the rolling of the boat, and the heat and humidity, I found myself getting a bit woozy. It was not sea sickness so much as a feeling of light-headedness, so we tried increasing the oxygen concentration in the cabin to counteract it. Between us we had been consuming ? liters of oxygen per minute, with the analyzer readings hovering around 19 percent and a fraction. We bumped up the flow to 4 liters per minute until the oxygen concentration reached 23 percent, a limit above which the cabin atmosphere would have become a fire hazard. That is only two percent above normal, but it made us both feel perceptibly better. > We arrived at the dive site two hours after closing the hatch, and rather incredibly only four minutes after our target time of low tide. The twenty pounds of ice had all melted. Our normal tow speed is three knots, and the distance was only four miles, but some ?hatch closed? time was spent getting underway, some was spent on a stop to re-position the towel when it was displaced by waves washing over the dome, and some was spent on the final locating of the site. > Doug anchored the whaler and Scott swam over to remove our towel sunshade, and to attach a video camera to the sub. In the previous few days the heat and humidity had already led to the failure of a depth sounder and a compass, so I had decided not to risk the good camera inside the sub. In tropical climates at least, the cabin is a very dangerous place for electronics. > We initiated our dive and tested communications as soon as the transducer went under water. The gear worked, yet the communications were very faint. Snoopy?s transducers are mounted above the hull and immediately behind the conning tower. Being just beneath the surface and pointed in the direction of the whaler, the transducer?s line of sight to the boat was blocked by the conning tower. Once at depth the communications were loud and clear. > The reef was unfortunately not healthy, as all reefs in this part of the world, yet it was absolutely fantastic compared to the lakes Snoopy normally dives in. There were large sponges, fish, and interesting terrain. In particular, we found ?streets? of sand running between raised mounds of coral on either side, reminiscent of scenes in the movie 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Visibility was about fifty feet. > In Snoopy, almost all the viewing underwater is done through the bow viewport. Through the dome it is very hard to see the bottom unless diving alongside a wall or quite high terrain, and even in that scenario optical distortion causes features to appear very small and far off. Nonetheless, while I could hardly see the bottom through the dome, I did see a column of bubbles rising in the distance and steered Snoopy in their direction. It was Scott, who had found a lost anchor. He tied it to Snoopy?s pickup arm, and we blew some air into the ballast tanks and delivered it to the boat. > We continued wandering the bottom, sometimes letting the current waft us along sideways and other times using the stern thruster to follow the ?sand roads?. These gradually led into deeper water, and we followed them hoping for the continental shelf drop-off that is only a short distance from Pickles reef. We started at thirty feet, and followed these paths down to a little over fifty feet, but unfortunately did not make it as far as the drop-off. > Snoopy was ballasted ever so slightly buoyant, perhaps just a pound or two. One side thruster was locked in a straight down position, the other slightly inclined to counter the rotation induced by the props. Indeed the props only needed to turn very slowly to maintain depth, as if turned by hand instead of by a motor. To slowly rise I would shut them off, or I would speed them up to descend. The side thruster throttle acted as a ?depth knob?, allowing depth to be controlled with an accuracy of a couple of inches. > Laying prone and looking out of the forward viewport, Steve had a good view of upcoming terrain. He acted as observer, calling out details about what lay ahead and asking for port or starboard headings and altitude adjustments. One tries to stay close to the bottom in order to see it better, but not touch anything in order to avoid damaging the reef. He took a turn at the controls as well, which in Snoopy does not mean that we changed places, but rather that we passed the remote controller between us. > At one point we lost communications with the surface. We were to learn later that the whaler had re-positioned to follow us, and in doing so ran over its transducer cable, severing it and losing the transducer. The whaler could have tracked us by our acoustic pinger, but instead simply followed the bubbles of our support divers, who were following us by sight in the clear water. > After an hour and a half of contented wandering, we suddenly sensed that the stern thruster had lost power. A moment later we both noticed a smell of burning. I turned off power to the stern thruster speed control, looked up to ensure we were not under the whaler, and immediately initiated a ballast blow, which gives a much faster rate of ascent than the thrusters. We could have continued maneuvering on side thrusters only, but it seemed prudent to call the dive. Afterwards I would discover that a little piece of fan coral had been sucked in by the stern thruster, and wedged between the propeller and its shroud. It was very tough material, and it locked up the thruster causing its speed controller to burn out. Although the speed controllers are supposed to have over-current protection, I will be adding breakers in the near future. > One more surprise awaited us during the tow back to shore. After about an hour of towing, we had reached a spot at which the waves were lower, and we were on the radio to the whaler planning to pause the tow and transfer to her. But just then there was suddenly a very loud pop in the cabin, and my immediate thought was of a ruptured high pressure line. It was followed a second later by another equally loud pop. I was puzzled by the fact my ears were not registering any increase in cabin pressure, when I saw Steve?s life preserver inflating. These life preservers are of the type that resembles suspenders, inflated by a CO2 cartridge which Steve?s movement had accidentally triggered. For a moment it looked like his PFD might strangle him in the tight space, but he managed to wriggle out of it. I?ll be looking at some way to secure the rip cord on these PFDs, to make accidental deployment a little less likely. There is precious little space in Snoopy under normal conditions, but with an inflated PFD the lack of space becomes almost comical. > Finally we came aboard the whaler. Being in the tower, I stowed my seat, climbed out, and closed the hatch quickly behind me. This allowed Steve to reposition himself into the tower without fear of being swamped while doing so. The hatch opened again, Steve jumped out, and we were both on deck. It had been five hours since we closed the hatch. > It was only once back on the whaler I saw Steve was quite hungry. It was six in the evening, and he had avoided eating anything all day, anticipating that it would be a long dive and knowing that Snoopy has no head. Now that is dedication! > > > Cheers, > > Alec > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 13:39:52 2013 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 10:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <1381070199.26505.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381067000.33539.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381070199.26505.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381081192.78259.YahooMailNeo@web140904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Larger diameter for sure. ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 10:36 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef ....and given a choice between lengthening or widening for increased interior volume, (keeping in mind tow-ability and trailer-ability) ? What is the general consensus? ? Joe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From freepetesub at yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 15:23:38 2013 From: freepetesub at yahoo.com (Pete Niedermayr) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 12:23:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SM Globule Message-ID: <1381087418.92472.YahooMailNeo@web140504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Anybody know anything about this beast? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Porte_ouverte_18RT-15_juin_2009_sm_Globule01.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 49874 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Porte_ouverte_18RT-15_juin_2009_sm_Globule02.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 54960 bytes Desc: not available URL: From freepetesub at yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 15:29:59 2013 From: freepetesub at yahoo.com (Pete Niedermayr) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 12:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1381087799.3488.YahooMailNeo@web140506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Is there a way to add a clutch (like on a cordless drill) to prop/shaft to avoid burning up motor controllers ? ? Pete ________________________________ From: Alec Smyth To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 12:17 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In Islamorada for the 2013 PSUBS convention, we tried a few days ago to dive the reefs off the Atlantic side of the island. After towing Snoopy out to the dive site, I had to call off the dive because a three foot chop made it unsafe to board. I made it aboard myself, but water was splashing over the hatch land, and with the weight of a second person it would have been touch and go. When their hatches are open, these little boats are like holes in the water just waiting to be filled up by the next wave. Three foot waves are not large, and they are entirely normal a few miles from shore, but they are just beyond practical conditions for Snoopy. For our second attempt on the reefs we changed tactics, deciding to board at the boat ramp and make the tow under a closed hatch. This would guarantee a dive regardless of wave conditions, but also introduce a new challenge. With a temperature of 89 degrees above the surface and 86 degrees below it, the problem was now how to avoid getting cooked during the tow. There was hardly a cloud in the sky, and Snoopy?s big acrylic dome hatch transforms her cabin into a greenhouse. The pilot, with his head in the middle of the dome, feels that he is under a giant magnifying glass. Hot air rises. Steve McQueen and I boarded at Harry Harris state park at 12:30, after having spent the morning at the local school giving four hundred local children a tour of the sub. Snoopy?s payload can be maximized by adding buoyancy spheres. We installed every available one, and used their buoyancy to load twenty pounds of ice inside the cabin. Our support diver, Scott Waters, attached a white hotel towel over the dome with bungee cord, and then tied off the tow line. We set out, towed by Doug Suhr in his whaler, an ideal surface support vessel. He had fashioned a custom wooden frame that allowed towing from a point just aft of midships. That is where tugs and trawlers attach their tow lines, and it allowed the whaler to retain good control, whereas in the past I had found Snoopy often turned around the towboat when towed from the transom. The tow was unexpectedly interesting, because of the bottom rushing by and constantly changing scenery. Most of the time it would be sand and sea grass, but there were always changes and it would at times become more rocky, or turn to pure sand, and drop away or rise up to just a couple of feet from us. We rushed past or right through clouds of jellies. As Steve put it, it felt like an arcade game. I have no idea how hot it was inside the sub, but it was surely an outrageous number. Prior to departure we had applied detergent to the viewports to prevent them from fogging. That succeeded on the forward viewport, but with that single exception every other surface in the boat streamed water profusely. Every ten minutes or so I would pick up a rapidly dwindling bag of ice and give it a hug, rest it on the back of my neck, or wear it as a hat. I went through five bottles of drinking water. Between the rolling of the boat, and the heat and humidity, I found myself getting a bit woozy. It was not sea sickness so much as a feeling of light-headedness, so we tried increasing the oxygen concentration in the cabin to counteract it. Between us we had been consuming ? liters of oxygen per minute, with the analyzer readings hovering around 19 percent and a fraction. We bumped up the flow to 4 liters per minute until the oxygen concentration reached 23 percent, a limit above which the cabin atmosphere would have become a fire hazard. That is only two percent above normal, but it made us both feel perceptibly better. We arrived at the dive site two hours after closing the hatch, and rather incredibly only four minutes after our target time of low tide. The twenty pounds of ice had all melted. Our normal tow speed is three knots, and the distance was only four miles, but some ?hatch closed? time was spent getting underway, some was spent on a stop to re-position the towel when it was displaced by waves washing over the dome, and some was spent on the final locating of the site.? Doug anchored the whaler and Scott swam over to remove our towel sunshade, and to attach a video camera to the sub. In the previous few days the heat and humidity had already led to the failure of a depth sounder and a compass, so I had decided not to risk the good camera inside the sub. In tropical climates at least, the cabin is a very dangerous place for electronics. We initiated our dive and tested communications as soon as the transducer went under water. The gear worked, yet the communications were very faint. Snoopy?s transducers are mounted above the hull and immediately behind the conning tower. Being just beneath the surface and pointed in the direction of the whaler, the transducer?s line of sight to the boat was blocked by the conning tower. Once at depth the communications were loud and clear. The reef was unfortunately not healthy, as all reefs in this part of the world, yet it was absolutely fantastic compared to the lakes Snoopy normally dives in. There were large sponges, fish, and interesting terrain. In particular, we found ?streets? of sand running between raised mounds of coral on either side, reminiscent of scenes in the movie 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Visibility was about fifty feet. In Snoopy, almost all the viewing underwater is done through the bow viewport. Through the dome it is very hard to see the bottom unless diving alongside a wall or quite high terrain, and even in that scenario optical distortion causes features to appear very small and far off. Nonetheless, while I could hardly see the bottom through the dome, I did see a column of bubbles rising in the distance and steered Snoopy in their direction. It was Scott, who had found a lost anchor. He tied it to Snoopy?s pickup arm, and we blew some air into the ballast tanks and delivered it to the boat. We continued wandering the bottom, sometimes letting the current waft us along sideways and other times using the stern thruster to follow the ?sand roads?. These gradually led into deeper water, and we followed them hoping for the continental shelf drop-off that is only a short distance from Pickles reef. We started at thirty feet, and followed these paths down to a little over fifty feet, but unfortunately did not make it as far as the drop-off. Snoopy was ballasted ever so slightly buoyant, perhaps just a pound or two. One side thruster was locked in a straight down position, the other slightly inclined to counter the rotation induced by the props. Indeed the props only needed to turn very slowly to maintain depth, as if turned by hand instead of by a motor.?To slowly rise I would shut them off, or I would speed them up to descend. The side thruster throttle acted as a ?depth knob?, allowing depth to be controlled with an accuracy of a couple of inches. Laying prone and looking out of the forward viewport, Steve had a good view of upcoming terrain. He acted as observer, calling out details about what lay ahead and asking for port or starboard headings and altitude adjustments. One tries to stay close to the bottom in order to see it better, but not touch anything in order to avoid damaging the reef. He took a turn at the controls as well, which in Snoopy does not mean that we changed places, but rather that we passed the remote controller between us.? At one point we lost communications with the surface. We were to learn later that the whaler had re-positioned to follow us, and in doing so ran over its transducer cable, severing it and losing the transducer. The whaler could have tracked us by our acoustic pinger, but instead simply followed the bubbles of our support divers, who were following us by sight in the clear water. After an hour and a half of contented wandering, we suddenly sensed that the stern thruster had lost power. A moment later we both noticed a smell of burning. I turned off power to the stern thruster speed control, looked up to ensure we were not under the whaler, and immediately initiated a ballast blow, which gives a much faster rate of ascent than the thrusters. We could have continued maneuvering on side thrusters only, but it seemed prudent to call the dive. Afterwards I would discover that a little piece of fan coral had been sucked in by the stern thruster, and wedged between the propeller and its shroud. It was very tough material, and it locked up the thruster causing its speed controller to burn out. Although the speed controllers are supposed to have over-current protection, I will be adding breakers in the near future. One more surprise awaited us during the tow back to shore. After about an hour of towing, we had reached a spot at which the waves were lower, and we were on the radio to the whaler planning to pause the tow and transfer to her. But just then there was suddenly a very loud pop in the cabin, and my immediate thought was of a ruptured high pressure line. It was followed a second later by another equally loud pop. I was puzzled by the fact my ears were not registering any increase in cabin pressure, when I saw Steve?s life preserver inflating. These life preservers are of the type that resembles suspenders, inflated by a CO2 cartridge which Steve?s movement had accidentally triggered. For a moment it looked like his PFD might strangle him in the tight space, but he managed to wriggle out of it. I?ll be looking at some way to secure the rip cord on these PFDs, to make accidental deployment a little less likely. There is precious little space in Snoopy under normal conditions, but with an inflated PFD the lack of space becomes almost comical. Finally we came aboard the whaler. Being in the tower, I stowed my seat, climbed out, and closed the hatch quickly behind me. This allowed Steve to reposition himself into the tower without fear of being swamped while doing so. The hatch opened again, Steve jumped out, and we were both on deck. It had been five hours since we closed the hatch. It was only once back on the whaler I saw Steve was quite hungry. It was six in the evening, and he had avoided eating anything all day, anticipating that it would be a long dive and knowing that Snoopy has no head. Now that is dedication! Cheers, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Alec.Smyth at covisint.com Sun Oct 6 15:34:34 2013 From: Alec.Smyth at covisint.com (Smyth, Alec) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 19:34:34 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <1381067000.33539.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: , <1381067000.33539.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5D5501A0-786F-45CF-BB9A-7F8908C1397C@covisint.com> We'll I'm not back yet, but I'm ensconced in the Auto-train, so nothing to do now for the next 17 hours. I'm concentrating on the next sub, but if I wanted to make further changes to Snoopy, my next thing would be to replace the dome hatch with a cylindrical tube of acrylic about a foot tall, that would sit on the existing hatch land. I would replace the dome hatch with a standard steel hatch. The K250 conning tower is low because it is designed to be looked OVER, whereas a K350 tower has viewports so you look through it. With an extra foot of freeboard, waves would pose a considerably reduced threat. Having said that, I have no idea what the optical qualities of a cylinder might be. Unfortunately I don't think a K-250 sized boat has either the space for A/C equipment nor the batteries to run it. But if it had more freeboard, you might need to close the hatch less and that alone would go a long way toward improving things. Cheers, Alec On Oct 6, 2013, at 9:48 AM, "Joe Perkel" > wrote: Alec, I second Hugh's remarks, well written! These are my conditions, that I will need to contend with, in reading this I come to two absolute conclusions with regard to redesign. 1) Mitigating the swamp risk. 2) Aggressive enviromental control, (This means AC and condensation control, which means in turn an upward design spiral) When you get back, a wish list would be most helpful Joe From: Alec Smyth > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 1:17 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In Islamorada for the 2013 PSUBS convention, we tried a few days ago to dive the reefs off the Atlantic side of the island. After towing Snoopy out to the dive site, I had to call off the dive because a three foot chop made it unsafe to board. I made it aboard myself, but water was splashing over the hatch land, and with the weight of a second person it would have been touch and go. When their hatches are open, these little boats are like holes in the water just waiting to be filled up by the next wave. Three foot waves are not large, and they are entirely normal a few miles from shore, but they are just beyond practical conditions for Snoopy. For our second attempt on the reefs we changed tactics, deciding to board at the boat ramp and make the tow under a closed hatch. This would guarantee a dive regardless of wave conditions, but also introduce a new challenge. With a temperature of 89 degrees above the surface and 86 degrees below it, the problem was now how to avoid getting cooked during the tow. There was hardly a cloud in the sky, and Snoopy?s big acrylic dome hatch transforms her cabin into a greenhouse. The pilot, with his head in the middle of the dome, feels that he is under a giant magnifying glass. Hot air rises. Steve McQueen and I boarded at Harry Harris state park at 12:30, after having spent the morning at the local school giving four hundred local children a tour of the sub. Snoopy?s payload can be maximized by adding buoyancy spheres. We installed every available one, and used their buoyancy to load twenty pounds of ice inside the cabin. Our support diver, Scott Waters, attached a white hotel towel over the dome with bungee cord, and then tied off the tow line. We set out, towed by Doug Suhr in his whaler, an ideal surface support vessel. He had fashioned a custom wooden frame that allowed towing from a point just aft of midships. That is where tugs and trawlers attach their tow lines, and it allowed the whaler to retain good control, whereas in the past I had found Snoopy often turned around the towboat when towed from the transom. The tow was unexpectedly interesting, because of the bottom rushing by and constantly changing scenery. Most of the time it would be sand and sea grass, but there were always changes and it would at times become more rocky, or turn to pure sand, and drop away or rise up to just a couple of feet from us. We rushed past or right through clouds of jellies. As Steve put it, it felt like an arcade game. I have no idea how hot it was inside the sub, but it was surely an outrageous number. Prior to departure we had applied detergent to the viewports to prevent them from fogging. That succeeded on the forward viewport, but with that single exception every other surface in the boat streamed water profusely. Every ten minutes or so I would pick up a rapidly dwindling bag of ice and give it a hug, rest it on the back of my neck, or wear it as a hat. I went through five bottles of drinking water. Between the rolling of the boat, and the heat and humidity, I found myself getting a bit woozy. It was not sea sickness so much as a feeling of light-headedness, so we tried increasing the oxygen concentration in the cabin to counteract it. Between us we had been consuming ? liters of oxygen per minute, with the analyzer readings hovering around 19 percent and a fraction. We bumped up the flow to 4 liters per minute until the oxygen concentration reached 23 percent, a limit above which the cabin atmosphere would have become a fire hazard. That is only two percent above normal, but it made us both feel perceptibly better. We arrived at the dive site two hours after closing the hatch, and rather incredibly only four minutes after our target time of low tide. The twenty pounds of ice had all melted. Our normal tow speed is three knots, and the distance was only four miles, but some ?hatch closed? time was spent getting underway, some was spent on a stop to re-position the towel when it was displaced by waves washing over the dome, and some was spent on the final locating of the site. Doug anchored the whaler and Scott swam over to remove our towel sunshade, and to attach a video camera to the sub. In the previous few days the heat and humidity had already led to the failure of a depth sounder and a compass, so I had decided not to risk the good camera inside the sub. In tropical climates at least, the cabin is a very dangerous place for electronics. We initiated our dive and tested communications as soon as the transducer went under water. The gear worked, yet the communications were very faint. Snoopy?s transducers are mounted above the hull and immediately behind the conning tower. Being just beneath the surface and pointed in the direction of the whaler, the transducer?s line of sight to the boat was blocked by the conning tower. Once at depth the communications were loud and clear. The reef was unfortunately not healthy, as all reefs in this part of the world, yet it was absolutely fantastic compared to the lakes Snoopy normally dives in. There were large sponges, fish, and interesting terrain. In particular, we found ?streets? of sand running between raised mounds of coral on either side, reminiscent of scenes in the movie 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Visibility was about fifty feet. In Snoopy, almost all the viewing underwater is done through the bow viewport. Through the dome it is very hard to see the bottom unless diving alongside a wall or quite high terrain, and even in that scenario optical distortion causes features to appear very small and far off. Nonetheless, while I could hardly see the bottom through the dome, I did see a column of bubbles rising in the distance and steered Snoopy in their direction. It was Scott, who had found a lost anchor. He tied it to Snoopy?s pickup arm, and we blew some air into the ballast tanks and delivered it to the boat. We continued wandering the bottom, sometimes letting the current waft us along sideways and other times using the stern thruster to follow the ?sand roads?. These gradually led into deeper water, and we followed them hoping for the continental shelf drop-off that is only a short distance from Pickles reef. We started at thirty feet, and followed these paths down to a little over fifty feet, but unfortunately did not make it as far as the drop-off. Snoopy was ballasted ever so slightly buoyant, perhaps just a pound or two. One side thruster was locked in a straight down position, the other slightly inclined to counter the rotation induced by the props. Indeed the props only needed to turn very slowly to maintain depth, as if turned by hand instead of by a motor. To slowly rise I would shut them off, or I would speed them up to descend. The side thruster throttle acted as a ?depth knob?, allowing depth to be controlled with an accuracy of a couple of inches. Laying prone and looking out of the forward viewport, Steve had a good view of upcoming terrain. He acted as observer, calling out details about what lay ahead and asking for port or starboard headings and altitude adjustments. One tries to stay close to the bottom in order to see it better, but not touch anything in order to avoid damaging the reef. He took a turn at the controls as well, which in Snoopy does not mean that we changed places, but rather that we passed the remote controller between us. At one point we lost communications with the surface. We were to learn later that the whaler had re-positioned to follow us, and in doing so ran over its transducer cable, severing it and losing the transducer. The whaler could have tracked us by our acoustic pinger, but instead simply followed the bubbles of our support divers, who were following us by sight in the clear water. After an hour and a half of contented wandering, we suddenly sensed that the stern thruster had lost power. A moment later we both noticed a smell of burning. I turned off power to the stern thruster speed control, looked up to ensure we were not under the whaler, and immediately initiated a ballast blow, which gives a much faster rate of ascent than the thrusters. We could have continued maneuvering on side thrusters only, but it seemed prudent to call the dive. Afterwards I would discover that a little piece of fan coral had been sucked in by the stern thruster, and wedged between the propeller and its shroud. It was very tough material, and it locked up the thruster causing its speed controller to burn out. Although the speed controllers are supposed to have over-current protection, I will be adding breakers in the near future. One more surprise awaited us during the tow back to shore. After about an hour of towing, we had reached a spot at which the waves were lower, and we were on the radio to the whaler planning to pause the tow and transfer to her. But just then there was suddenly a very loud pop in the cabin, and my immediate thought was of a ruptured high pressure line. It was followed a second later by another equally loud pop. I was puzzled by the fact my ears were not registering any increase in cabin pressure, when I saw Steve?s life preserver inflating. These life preservers are of the type that resembles suspenders, inflated by a CO2 cartridge which Steve?s movement had accidentally triggered. For a moment it looked like his PFD might strangle him in the tight space, but he managed to wriggle out of it. I?ll be looking at some way to secure the rip cord on these PFDs, to make accidental deployment a little less likely. There is precious little space in Snoopy under normal conditions, but with an inflated PFD the lack of space becomes almost comical. Finally we came aboard the whaler. Being in the tower, I stowed my seat, climbed out, and closed the hatch quickly behind me. This allowed Steve to reposition himself into the tower without fear of being swamped while doing so. The hatch opened again, Steve jumped out, and we were both on deck. It had been five hours since we closed the hatch. It was only once back on the whaler I saw Steve was quite hungry. It was six in the evening, and he had avoided eating anything all day, anticipating that it would be a long dive and knowing that Snoopy has no head. Now that is dedication! Cheers, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paulkreemer at gmail.com Sun Oct 6 15:35:49 2013 From: paulkreemer at gmail.com (Paul Kreemer) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 12:35:49 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Thanks Alec, that's a great writeup of your adventure! Paul On Oct 5, 2013 11:05 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: > Great tale. You should take up writing. Most enjoyable and I could > picture the whole thing.**** > > Best wishes Hugh**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Alec Smyth > *Sent:* Sunday, 6 October 2013 6:18 p.m. > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef**** > > ** ** > > In Islamorada for the 2013 PSUBS convention, we tried a few days ago to > dive the reefs off the Atlantic side of the island. After towing Snoopy out > to the dive site, I had to call off the dive because a three foot chop made > it unsafe to board. I made it aboard myself, but water was splashing over > the hatch land, and with the weight of a second person it would have been > touch and go. When their hatches are open, these little boats are like > holes in the water just waiting to be filled up by the next wave. Three > foot waves are not large, and they are entirely normal a few miles from > shore, but they are just beyond practical conditions for Snoopy.**** > > For our second attempt on the reefs we changed tactics, deciding to board > at the boat ramp and make the tow under a closed hatch. This would > guarantee a dive regardless of wave conditions, but also introduce a new > challenge. With a temperature of 89 degrees above the surface and 86 > degrees below it, the problem was now how to avoid getting cooked during > the tow. There was hardly a cloud in the sky, and Snoopy?s big acrylic dome > hatch transforms her cabin into a greenhouse. The pilot, with his head in > the middle of the dome, feels that he is under a giant magnifying glass. > Hot air rises.**** > > Steve McQueen and I boarded at Harry Harris state park at 12:30, after > having spent the morning at the local school giving four hundred local > children a tour of the sub. Snoopy?s payload can be maximized by adding > buoyancy spheres. We installed every available one, and used their buoyancy > to load twenty pounds of ice inside the cabin. Our support diver, Scott > Waters, attached a white hotel towel over the dome with bungee cord, and > then tied off the tow line. We set out, towed by Doug Suhr in his whaler, > an ideal surface support vessel. He had fashioned a custom wooden frame > that allowed towing from a point just aft of midships. That is where tugs > and trawlers attach their tow lines, and it allowed the whaler to retain > good control, whereas in the past I had found Snoopy often turned around > the towboat when towed from the transom.**** > > The tow was unexpectedly interesting, because of the bottom rushing by and > constantly changing scenery. Most of the time it would be sand and sea > grass, but there were always changes and it would at times become more > rocky, or turn to pure sand, and drop away or rise up to just a couple of > feet from us. We rushed past or right through clouds of jellies. As Steve > put it, it felt like an arcade game.**** > > I have no idea how hot it was inside the sub, but it was surely an > outrageous number. Prior to departure we had applied detergent to the > viewports to prevent them from fogging. That succeeded on the forward > viewport, but with that single exception every other surface in the boat > streamed water profusely. Every ten minutes or so I would pick up a rapidly > dwindling bag of ice and give it a hug, rest it on the back of my neck, or > wear it as a hat. I went through five bottles of drinking water.**** > > Between the rolling of the boat, and the heat and humidity, I found myself > getting a bit woozy. It was not sea sickness so much as a feeling of > light-headedness, so we tried increasing the oxygen concentration in the > cabin to counteract it. Between us we had been consuming ? liters of oxygen > per minute, with the analyzer readings hovering around 19 percent and a > fraction. We bumped up the flow to 4 liters per minute until the oxygen > concentration reached 23 percent, a limit above which the cabin atmosphere > would have become a fire hazard. That is only two percent above normal, but > it made us both feel perceptibly better.**** > > We arrived at the dive site two hours after closing the hatch, and rather > incredibly only four minutes after our target time of low tide. The twenty > pounds of ice had all melted. Our normal tow speed is three knots, and the > distance was only four miles, but some ?hatch closed? time was spent > getting underway, some was spent on a stop to re-position the towel when it > was displaced by waves washing over the dome, and some was spent on the > final locating of the site. **** > > Doug anchored the whaler and Scott swam over to remove our towel sunshade, > and to attach a video camera to the sub. In the previous few days the heat > and humidity had already led to the failure of a depth sounder and a > compass, so I had decided not to risk the good camera inside the sub. In > tropical climates at least, the cabin is a very dangerous place for > electronics.**** > > We initiated our dive and tested communications as soon as the transducer > went under water. The gear worked, yet the communications were very faint. > Snoopy?s transducers are mounted above the hull and immediately behind the > conning tower. Being just beneath the surface and pointed in the direction > of the whaler, the transducer?s line of sight to the boat was blocked by > the conning tower. Once at depth the communications were loud and clear.** > ** > > The reef was unfortunately not healthy, as all reefs in this part of the > world, yet it was absolutely fantastic compared to the lakes Snoopy > normally dives in. There were large sponges, fish, and interesting terrain. > In particular, we found ?streets? of sand running between raised mounds of > coral on either side, reminiscent of scenes in the movie 20,000 Leagues > Under the Sea. Visibility was about fifty feet.**** > > In Snoopy, almost all the viewing underwater is done through the bow > viewport. Through the dome it is very hard to see the bottom unless diving > alongside a wall or quite high terrain, and even in that scenario optical > distortion causes features to appear very small and far off. Nonetheless, > while I could hardly see the bottom through the dome, I did see a column of > bubbles rising in the distance and steered Snoopy in their direction. It > was Scott, who had found a lost anchor. He tied it to Snoopy?s pickup arm, > and we blew some air into the ballast tanks and delivered it to the boat.* > *** > > We continued wandering the bottom, sometimes letting the current waft us > along sideways and other times using the stern thruster to follow the ?sand > roads?. These gradually led into deeper water, and we followed them hoping > for the continental shelf drop-off that is only a short distance from > Pickles reef. We started at thirty feet, and followed these paths down to a > little over fifty feet, but unfortunately did not make it as far as the > drop-off.**** > > Snoopy was ballasted ever so slightly buoyant, perhaps just a pound or > two. One side thruster was locked in a straight down position, the other > slightly inclined to counter the rotation induced by the props. Indeed the > props only needed to turn very slowly to maintain depth, as if turned by > hand instead of by a motor. To slowly rise I would shut them off, or I > would speed them up to descend. The side thruster throttle acted as a > ?depth knob?, allowing depth to be controlled with an accuracy of a couple > of inches.**** > > Laying prone and looking out of the forward viewport, Steve had a good > view of upcoming terrain. He acted as observer, calling out details about > what lay ahead and asking for port or starboard headings and altitude > adjustments. One tries to stay close to the bottom in order to see it > better, but not touch anything in order to avoid damaging the reef. He took > a turn at the controls as well, which in Snoopy does not mean that we > changed places, but rather that we passed the remote controller between us. > **** > > At one point we lost communications with the surface. We were to learn > later that the whaler had re-positioned to follow us, and in doing so ran > over its transducer cable, severing it and losing the transducer. The > whaler could have tracked us by our acoustic pinger, but instead simply > followed the bubbles of our support divers, who were following us by sight > in the clear water.**** > > After an hour and a half of contented wandering, we suddenly sensed that > the stern thruster had lost power. A moment later we both noticed a smell > of burning. I turned off power to the stern thruster speed control, looked > up to ensure we were not under the whaler, and immediately initiated a > ballast blow, which gives a much faster rate of ascent than the thrusters. > We could have continued maneuvering on side thrusters only, but it seemed > prudent to call the dive. Afterwards I would discover that a little piece > of fan coral had been sucked in by the stern thruster, and wedged between > the propeller and its shroud. It was very tough material, and it locked up > the thruster causing its speed controller to burn out. Although the speed > controllers are supposed to have over-current protection, I will be adding > breakers in the near future.**** > > One more surprise awaited us during the tow back to shore. After about an > hour of towing, we had reached a spot at which the waves were lower, and we > were on the radio to the whaler planning to pause the tow and transfer to > her. But just then there was suddenly a very loud pop in the cabin, and my > immediate thought was of a ruptured high pressure line. It was followed a > second later by another equally loud pop. I was puzzled by the fact my ears > were not registering any increase in cabin pressure, when I saw Steve?s > life preserver inflating. These life preservers are of the type that > resembles suspenders, inflated by a CO2 cartridge which Steve?s movement > had accidentally triggered. For a moment it looked like his PFD might > strangle him in the tight space, but he managed to wriggle out of it. I?ll > be looking at some way to secure the rip cord on these PFDs, to make > accidental deployment a little less likely. There is precious little space > in Snoopy under normal conditions, but with an inflated PFD the lack of > space becomes almost comical.**** > > Finally we came aboard the whaler. Being in the tower, I stowed my seat, > climbed out, and closed the hatch quickly behind me. This allowed Steve to > reposition himself into the tower without fear of being swamped while doing > so. The hatch opened again, Steve jumped out, and we were both on deck. It > had been five hours since we closed the hatch.**** > > It was only once back on the whaler I saw Steve was quite hungry. It was > six in the evening, and he had avoided eating anything all day, > anticipating that it would be a long dive and knowing that Snoopy has no > head. Now that is dedication!**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > Cheers,**** > > > Alec**** > > ** ** > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 8880 (20131005) __________**** > > ** ** > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.**** > > ** ** > > http://www.eset.com**** > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 8880 (20131005) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Oct 6 15:47:48 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 12:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <5D5501A0-786F-45CF-BB9A-7F8908C1397C@covisint.com> References: , <1381067000.33539.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5D5501A0-786F-45CF-BB9A-7F8908C1397C@covisint.com> Message-ID: <1381088868.73089.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alec, You would be very pleased with the optics.? I know the consensus is the optics are bad, but I can say first hand they are very good.? I put a lot of effort into maximum freeboard on my small sub and the cylinder was part of the solution.? I think being able to enter a sub at sea is a design must if you don't own a ship. The other solution is a diesel engine with air conditioning running off the engine.? Hank From: "Smyth, Alec" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 1:34:34 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef We'll I'm not back yet, but I'm ensconced in the Auto-train, so nothing to do now for the next 17 hours. I'm concentrating on the next sub, but if I wanted to make further changes to Snoopy, my next thing would be to replace the dome hatch with a cylindrical tube of acrylic about a foot tall, that would sit on the existing hatch land. I would replace the dome hatch with a standard steel hatch. The K250 conning tower is low because it is designed to be looked OVER, whereas a K350 tower has viewports so you look through it. With an extra foot of freeboard, waves would pose a considerably reduced threat. Having said that, I have no idea what the optical qualities of a cylinder might be.? Unfortunately I don't think a K-250 sized boat has either the space for A/C equipment nor the batteries to run it. But if it had more freeboard, you might need to close the hatch less and that alone would go a long way toward improving things. Cheers, Alec On Oct 6, 2013, at 9:48 AM, "Joe Perkel" wrote: Alec, >? >I second Hugh's remarks, well written! >? >These are my conditions, that I will need to contend with, ?in reading this I come to two absolute conclusions with regard to redesign. >? >1) Mitigating the swamp risk. >? >2) Aggressive enviromental control, (This means AC and condensation control, which means in turn an upward design spiral) >? >When you get back, a wish list would be most helpful >? >? >Joe > > >From: Alec Smyth >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 1:17 AM >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef > > > >In Islamorada for the 2013 PSUBS convention, we tried a few days ago to dive the reefs off the Atlantic side of the island. After towing Snoopy out to the dive site, I had to call off the dive because a three foot chop made it unsafe to board. I made it aboard myself, but water was splashing over the hatch land, and with the weight of a second person it would have been touch and go. When their hatches are open, these little boats are like holes in the water just waiting to be filled up by the next wave. Three foot waves are not large, and they are entirely normal a few miles from shore, but they are just beyond practical conditions for Snoopy. >For our second attempt on the reefs we changed tactics, deciding to board at the boat ramp and make the tow under a closed hatch. This would guarantee a dive regardless of wave conditions, but also introduce a new challenge. With a temperature of 89 degrees above the surface and 86 degrees below it, the problem was now how to avoid getting cooked during the tow. There was hardly a cloud in the sky, and Snoopy?s big acrylic dome hatch transforms her cabin into a greenhouse. The pilot, with his head in the middle of the dome, feels that he is under a giant magnifying glass. Hot air rises. >Steve McQueen and I boarded at Harry Harris state park at 12:30, after having spent the morning at the local school giving four hundred local children a tour of the sub. Snoopy?s payload can be maximized by adding buoyancy spheres. We installed every available one, and used their buoyancy to load twenty pounds of ice inside the cabin. Our support diver, Scott Waters, attached a white hotel towel over the dome with bungee cord, and then tied off the tow line. We set out, towed by Doug Suhr in his whaler, an ideal surface support vessel. He had fashioned a custom wooden frame that allowed towing from a point just aft of midships. That is where tugs and trawlers attach their tow lines, and it allowed the whaler to retain good control, whereas in the past I had found Snoopy often turned around the towboat when towed from the transom. >The tow was unexpectedly interesting, because of the bottom rushing by and constantly changing scenery. Most of the time it would be sand and sea grass, but there were always changes and it would at times become more rocky, or turn to pure sand, and drop away or rise up to just a couple of feet from us. We rushed past or right through clouds of jellies. As Steve put it, it felt like an arcade game. >I have no idea how hot it was inside the sub, but it was surely an outrageous number. Prior to departure we had applied detergent to the viewports to prevent them from fogging. That succeeded on the forward viewport, but with that single exception every other surface in the boat streamed water profusely. Every ten minutes or so I would pick up a rapidly dwindling bag of ice and give it a hug, rest it on the back of my neck, or wear it as a hat. I went through five bottles of drinking water. >Between the rolling of the boat, and the heat and humidity, I found myself getting a bit woozy. It was not sea sickness so much as a feeling of light-headedness, so we tried increasing the oxygen concentration in the cabin to counteract it. Between us we had been consuming ? liters of oxygen per minute, with the analyzer readings hovering around 19 percent and a fraction. We bumped up the flow to 4 liters per minute until the oxygen concentration reached 23 percent, a limit above which the cabin atmosphere would have become a fire hazard. That is only two percent above normal, but it made us both feel perceptibly better. >We arrived at the dive site two hours after closing the hatch, and rather incredibly only four minutes after our target time of low tide. The twenty pounds of ice had all melted. Our normal tow speed is three knots, and the distance was only four miles, but some ?hatch closed? time was spent getting underway, some was spent on a stop to re-position the towel when it was displaced by waves washing over the dome, and some was spent on the final locating of the site.? >Doug anchored the whaler and Scott swam over to remove our towel sunshade, and to attach a video camera to the sub. In the previous few days the heat and humidity had already led to the failure of a depth sounder and a compass, so I had decided not to risk the good camera inside the sub. In tropical climates at least, the cabin is a very dangerous place for electronics. >We initiated our dive and tested communications as soon as the transducer went under water. The gear worked, yet the communications were very faint. Snoopy?s transducers are mounted above the hull and immediately behind the conning tower. Being just beneath the surface and pointed in the direction of the whaler, the transducer?s line of sight to the boat was blocked by the conning tower. Once at depth the communications were loud and clear. >The reef was unfortunately not healthy, as all reefs in this part of the world, yet it was absolutely fantastic compared to the lakes Snoopy normally dives in. There were large sponges, fish, and interesting terrain. In particular, we found ?streets? of sand running between raised mounds of coral on either side, reminiscent of scenes in the movie 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Visibility was about fifty feet. >In Snoopy, almost all the viewing underwater is done through the bow viewport. Through the dome it is very hard to see the bottom unless diving alongside a wall or quite high terrain, and even in that scenario optical distortion causes features to appear very small and far off. Nonetheless, while I could hardly see the bottom through the dome, I did see a column of bubbles rising in the distance and steered Snoopy in their direction. It was Scott, who had found a lost anchor. He tied it to Snoopy?s pickup arm, and we blew some air into the ballast tanks and delivered it to the boat. >We continued wandering the bottom, sometimes letting the current waft us along sideways and other times using the stern thruster to follow the ?sand roads?. These gradually led into deeper water, and we followed them hoping for the continental shelf drop-off that is only a short distance from Pickles reef. We started at thirty feet, and followed these paths down to a little over fifty feet, but unfortunately did not make it as far as the drop-off. >Snoopy was ballasted ever so slightly buoyant, perhaps just a pound or two. One side thruster was locked in a straight down position, the other slightly inclined to counter the rotation induced by the props. Indeed the props only needed to turn very slowly to maintain depth, as if turned by hand instead of by a motor.?To slowly rise I would shut them off, or I would speed them up to descend. The side thruster throttle acted as a ?depth knob?, allowing depth to be controlled with an accuracy of a couple of inches. >Laying prone and looking out of the forward viewport, Steve had a good view of upcoming terrain. He acted as observer, calling out details about what lay ahead and asking for port or starboard headings and altitude adjustments. One tries to stay close to the bottom in order to see it better, but not touch anything in order to avoid damaging the reef. He took a turn at the controls as well, which in Snoopy does not mean that we changed places, but rather that we passed the remote controller between us.? >At one point we lost communications with the surface. We were to learn later that the whaler had re-positioned to follow us, and in doing so ran over its transducer cable, severing it and losing the transducer. The whaler could have tracked us by our acoustic pinger, but instead simply followed the bubbles of our support divers, who were following us by sight in the clear water. >After an hour and a half of contented wandering, we suddenly sensed that the stern thruster had lost power. A moment later we both noticed a smell of burning. I turned off power to the stern thruster speed control, looked up to ensure we were not under the whaler, and immediately initiated a ballast blow, which gives a much faster rate of ascent than the thrusters. We could have continued maneuvering on side thrusters only, but it seemed prudent to call the dive. Afterwards I would discover that a little piece of fan coral had been sucked in by the stern thruster, and wedged between the propeller and its shroud. It was very tough material, and it locked up the thruster causing its speed controller to burn out. Although the speed controllers are supposed to have over-current protection, I will be adding breakers in the near future. >One more surprise awaited us during the tow back to shore. After about an hour of towing, we had reached a spot at which the waves were lower, and we were on the radio to the whaler planning to pause the tow and transfer to her. But just then there was suddenly a very loud pop in the cabin, and my immediate thought was of a ruptured high pressure line. It was followed a second later by another equally loud pop. I was puzzled by the fact my ears were not registering any increase in cabin pressure, when I saw Steve?s life preserver inflating. These life preservers are of the type that resembles suspenders, inflated by a CO2 cartridge which Steve?s movement had accidentally triggered. For a moment it looked like his PFD might strangle him in the tight space, but he managed to wriggle out of it. I?ll be looking at some way to secure the rip cord on these PFDs, to make accidental deployment a little less likely. There is precious little space in Snoopy under normal conditions, but with an inflated PFD the lack of space becomes almost comical. >Finally we came aboard the whaler. Being in the tower, I stowed my seat, climbed out, and closed the hatch quickly behind me. This allowed Steve to reposition himself into the tower without fear of being swamped while doing so. The hatch opened again, Steve jumped out, and we were both on deck. It had been five hours since we closed the hatch. >It was only once back on the whaler I saw Steve was quite hungry. It was six in the evening, and he had avoided eating anything all day, anticipating that it would be a long dive and knowing that Snoopy has no head. Now that is dedication! > > > > >Cheers, > >Alec >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 17:05:23 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 14:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <5D5501A0-786F-45CF-BB9A-7F8908C1397C@covisint.com> References: , <1381067000.33539.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5D5501A0-786F-45CF-BB9A-7F8908C1397C@covisint.com> Message-ID: <1381093523.85730.YahooMailNeo@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Alec, ? Your experience renders what I had in mind for the K-350 untenable. That post was very helpful as I am quite familiar with the conditions. ? On the first problem, I'm inclined now to widen the hull and dispense with the conning tower completely in favor of a low profile hatch. This would be surrounded by a free flooding FRP tower ala Alvin. The question now is what diameter to accommodate two with comfortably and practically with all of the electronic goodies I have in mind. ? On environmental, this is a conundrum caused by a subtropical environment and lack of appropriate surface support. There's no getting around the fact that if you don't own an RV Atlantis with a dedicated sub hangar and A-Frame, then a radical but practical home grown solution must be found if you want to dive in Florida. ? One could conceivably?plumb the exhaust water?circulation of?a 3500 BTU marine air unit to an external heat exchanger and scavenge the condensation to an internal water tank?trim system. This unit could be powered by a removable portable Honda gas generator riding aft of the tower while on the surface. The idea is to scavenge all of that water and cool the interior prior to diving. The unit could be shut down or run off batteries after removal of the portable gen set?depending on conditions. ? I don't like an internal diesel for such a small enclosed space, what to do with the generated heat is a vicious cycle, and a?separate machinery hull is asking for trouble ala Pisces III. In any case some measure of surface support for battery charging and HP exchanges is a must. ? Joe ? ________________________________ From: "Smyth, Alec" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef We'll I'm not back yet, but I'm ensconced in the Auto-train, so nothing to do now for the next 17 hours. I'm concentrating on the next sub, but if I wanted to make further changes to Snoopy, my next thing would be to replace the dome hatch with a cylindrical tube of acrylic about a foot tall, that would sit on the existing hatch land. I would replace the dome hatch with a standard steel hatch. The K250 conning tower is low because it is designed to be looked OVER, whereas a K350 tower has viewports so you look through it. With an extra foot of freeboard, waves would pose a considerably reduced threat. Having said that, I have no idea what the optical qualities of a cylinder might be.? Unfortunately I don't think a K-250 sized boat has either the space for A/C equipment nor the batteries to run it. But if it had more freeboard, you might need to close the hatch less and that alone would go a long way toward improving things. Cheers, Alec On Oct 6, 2013, at 9:48 AM, "Joe Perkel" wrote: Alec, >? >I second Hugh's remarks, well written! >? >These are my conditions, that I will need to contend with, ?in reading this I come to two absolute conclusions with regard to redesign. >? >1) Mitigating the swamp risk. >? >2) Aggressive enviromental control, (This means AC and condensation control, which means in turn an upward design spiral) >? >When you get back, a wish list would be most helpful >? >? >Joe > > > >________________________________ >From: Alec Smyth >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 1:17 AM >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef > > > >In Islamorada for the 2013 PSUBS convention, we tried a few days ago to dive the reefs off the Atlantic side of the island. After towing Snoopy out to the dive site, I had to call off the dive because a three foot chop made it unsafe to board. I made it aboard myself, but water was splashing over the hatch land, and with the weight of a second person it would have been touch and go. When their hatches are open, these little boats are like holes in the water just waiting to be filled up by the next wave. Three foot waves are not large, and they are entirely normal a few miles from shore, but they are just beyond practical conditions for Snoopy. >For our second attempt on the reefs we changed tactics, deciding to board at the boat ramp and make the tow under a closed hatch. This would guarantee a dive regardless of wave conditions, but also introduce a new challenge. With a temperature of 89 degrees above the surface and 86 degrees below it, the problem was now how to avoid getting cooked during the tow. There was hardly a cloud in the sky, and Snoopy?s big acrylic dome hatch transforms her cabin into a greenhouse. The pilot, with his head in the middle of the dome, feels that he is under a giant magnifying glass. Hot air rises. >Steve McQueen and I boarded at Harry Harris state park at 12:30, after having spent the morning at the local school giving four hundred local children a tour of the sub. Snoopy?s payload can be maximized by adding buoyancy spheres. We installed every available one, and used their buoyancy to load twenty pounds of ice inside the cabin. Our support diver, Scott Waters, attached a white hotel towel over the dome with bungee cord, and then tied off the tow line. We set out, towed by Doug Suhr in his whaler, an ideal surface support vessel. He had fashioned a custom wooden frame that allowed towing from a point just aft of midships. That is where tugs and trawlers attach their tow lines, and it allowed the whaler to retain good control, whereas in the past I had found Snoopy often turned around the towboat when towed from the transom. >The tow was unexpectedly interesting, because of the bottom rushing by and constantly changing scenery. Most of the time it would be sand and sea grass, but there were always changes and it would at times become more rocky, or turn to pure sand, and drop away or rise up to just a couple of feet from us. We rushed past or right through clouds of jellies. As Steve put it, it felt like an arcade game. >I have no idea how hot it was inside the sub, but it was surely an outrageous number. Prior to departure we had applied detergent to the viewports to prevent them from fogging. That succeeded on the forward viewport, but with that single exception every other surface in the boat streamed water profusely. Every ten minutes or so I would pick up a rapidly dwindling bag of ice and give it a hug, rest it on the back of my neck, or wear it as a hat. I went through five bottles of drinking water. >Between the rolling of the boat, and the heat and humidity, I found myself getting a bit woozy. It was not sea sickness so much as a feeling of light-headedness, so we tried increasing the oxygen concentration in the cabin to counteract it. Between us we had been consuming ? liters of oxygen per minute, with the analyzer readings hovering around 19 percent and a fraction. We bumped up the flow to 4 liters per minute until the oxygen concentration reached 23 percent, a limit above which the cabin atmosphere would have become a fire hazard. That is only two percent above normal, but it made us both feel perceptibly better. >We arrived at the dive site two hours after closing the hatch, and rather incredibly only four minutes after our target time of low tide. The twenty pounds of ice had all melted. Our normal tow speed is three knots, and the distance was only four miles, but some ?hatch closed? time was spent getting underway, some was spent on a stop to re-position the towel when it was displaced by waves washing over the dome, and some was spent on the final locating of the site.? >Doug anchored the whaler and Scott swam over to remove our towel sunshade, and to attach a video camera to the sub. In the previous few days the heat and humidity had already led to the failure of a depth sounder and a compass, so I had decided not to risk the good camera inside the sub. In tropical climates at least, the cabin is a very dangerous place for electronics. >We initiated our dive and tested communications as soon as the transducer went under water. The gear worked, yet the communications were very faint. Snoopy?s transducers are mounted above the hull and immediately behind the conning tower. Being just beneath the surface and pointed in the direction of the whaler, the transducer?s line of sight to the boat was blocked by the conning tower. Once at depth the communications were loud and clear. >The reef was unfortunately not healthy, as all reefs in this part of the world, yet it was absolutely fantastic compared to the lakes Snoopy normally dives in. There were large sponges, fish, and interesting terrain. In particular, we found ?streets? of sand running between raised mounds of coral on either side, reminiscent of scenes in the movie 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Visibility was about fifty feet. >In Snoopy, almost all the viewing underwater is done through the bow viewport. Through the dome it is very hard to see the bottom unless diving alongside a wall or quite high terrain, and even in that scenario optical distortion causes features to appear very small and far off. Nonetheless, while I could hardly see the bottom through the dome, I did see a column of bubbles rising in the distance and steered Snoopy in their direction. It was Scott, who had found a lost anchor. He tied it to Snoopy?s pickup arm, and we blew some air into the ballast tanks and delivered it to the boat. >We continued wandering the bottom, sometimes letting the current waft us along sideways and other times using the stern thruster to follow the ?sand roads?. These gradually led into deeper water, and we followed them hoping for the continental shelf drop-off that is only a short distance from Pickles reef. We started at thirty feet, and followed these paths down to a little over fifty feet, but unfortunately did not make it as far as the drop-off. >Snoopy was ballasted ever so slightly buoyant, perhaps just a pound or two. One side thruster was locked in a straight down position, the other slightly inclined to counter the rotation induced by the props. Indeed the props only needed to turn very slowly to maintain depth, as if turned by hand instead of by a motor.?To slowly rise I would shut them off, or I would speed them up to descend. The side thruster throttle acted as a ?depth knob?, allowing depth to be controlled with an accuracy of a couple of inches. >Laying prone and looking out of the forward viewport, Steve had a good view of upcoming terrain. He acted as observer, calling out details about what lay ahead and asking for port or starboard headings and altitude adjustments. One tries to stay close to the bottom in order to see it better, but not touch anything in order to avoid damaging the reef. He took a turn at the controls as well, which in Snoopy does not mean that we changed places, but rather that we passed the remote controller between us.? >At one point we lost communications with the surface. We were to learn later that the whaler had re-positioned to follow us, and in doing so ran over its transducer cable, severing it and losing the transducer. The whaler could have tracked us by our acoustic pinger, but instead simply followed the bubbles of our support divers, who were following us by sight in the clear water. >After an hour and a half of contented wandering, we suddenly sensed that the stern thruster had lost power. A moment later we both noticed a smell of burning. I turned off power to the stern thruster speed control, looked up to ensure we were not under the whaler, and immediately initiated a ballast blow, which gives a much faster rate of ascent than the thrusters. We could have continued maneuvering on side thrusters only, but it seemed prudent to call the dive. Afterwards I would discover that a little piece of fan coral had been sucked in by the stern thruster, and wedged between the propeller and its shroud. It was very tough material, and it locked up the thruster causing its speed controller to burn out. Although the speed controllers are supposed to have over-current protection, I will be adding breakers in the near future. >One more surprise awaited us during the tow back to shore. After about an hour of towing, we had reached a spot at which the waves were lower, and we were on the radio to the whaler planning to pause the tow and transfer to her. But just then there was suddenly a very loud pop in the cabin, and my immediate thought was of a ruptured high pressure line. It was followed a second later by another equally loud pop. I was puzzled by the fact my ears were not registering any increase in cabin pressure, when I saw Steve?s life preserver inflating. These life preservers are of the type that resembles suspenders, inflated by a CO2 cartridge which Steve?s movement had accidentally triggered. For a moment it looked like his PFD might strangle him in the tight space, but he managed to wriggle out of it. I?ll be looking at some way to secure the rip cord on these PFDs, to make accidental deployment a little less likely. There is precious little space in Snoopy under normal conditions, but with an inflated PFD the lack of space becomes almost comical. >Finally we came aboard the whaler. Being in the tower, I stowed my seat, climbed out, and closed the hatch quickly behind me. This allowed Steve to reposition himself into the tower without fear of being swamped while doing so. The hatch opened again, Steve jumped out, and we were both on deck. It had been five hours since we closed the hatch. >It was only once back on the whaler I saw Steve was quite hungry. It was six in the evening, and he had avoided eating anything all day, anticipating that it would be a long dive and knowing that Snoopy has no head. Now that is dedication! > > > > >Cheers, > >Alec >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 16:29:59 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 13:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <1381074333.77224.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1381067000.33539.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381070199.26505.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381074333.77224.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381091399.9224.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hank, ? There's a nice picture of Gamma on the net silhouetted against the surface, its a beautiful shot, look for it if you don't have it Ill send it. Please image that?battery box arrangement when you have a moment for your project page, I think that is a superior arrangement to pods for towing. It's looking like 42" is the new 36. I had wanted to keep the weight down, but I just don't see it happening. ? Joe ? ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Joe, I had not given much consideration to tow ability until I did deep tests on my small sub.? It tows like a brick and takes forever to get to a desired spot.??I would recommend increasing diameter rather than length.? For one, working inside a 36in shell is very cramped.? A 44in to 48in?shell is?ideal, without going crazy on volume.? Today I painted the interior of Gamma and I was able to sit upright with my feet in the battery boxes and it was very comfortable.? Gamma is 42in dia. Hank ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 8:36:39 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef ....and given a choice between lengthening or widening for increased interior volume, (keeping in mind tow-ability and trailer-ability) ? What is the general consensus? ? Joe ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Alec, ? I second Hugh's remarks, well written! ? These are my conditions, that I will need to contend with, ?in reading this I come to two absolute conclusions with regard to redesign. ? 1) Mitigating the swamp risk. ? 2) Aggressive enviromental control, (This means AC and condensation control, which means in turn an upward design spiral) ? When you get back, a wish list would be most helpful ? ? Joe ________________________________ From: Alec Smyth To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 1:17 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In Islamorada for the 2013 PSUBS convention, we tried a few days ago to dive the reefs off the Atlantic side of the island. After towing Snoopy out to the dive site, I had to call off the dive because a three foot chop made it unsafe to board. I made it aboard myself, but water was splashing over the hatch land, and with the weight of a second person it would have been touch and go. When their hatches are open, these little boats are like holes in the water just waiting to be filled up by the next wave. Three foot waves are not large, and they are entirely normal a few miles from shore, but they are just beyond practical conditions for Snoopy. For our second attempt on the reefs we changed tactics, deciding to board at the boat ramp and make the tow under a closed hatch. This would guarantee a dive regardless of wave conditions, but also introduce a new challenge. With a temperature of 89 degrees above the surface and 86 degrees below it, the problem was now how to avoid getting cooked during the tow. There was hardly a cloud in the sky, and Snoopy?s big acrylic dome hatch transforms her cabin into a greenhouse. The pilot, with his head in the middle of the dome, feels that he is under a giant magnifying glass. Hot air rises. Steve McQueen and I boarded at Harry Harris state park at 12:30, after having spent the morning at the local school giving four hundred local children a tour of the sub. Snoopy?s payload can be maximized by adding buoyancy spheres. We installed every available one, and used their buoyancy to load twenty pounds of ice inside the cabin. Our support diver, Scott Waters, attached a white hotel towel over the dome with bungee cord, and then tied off the tow line. We set out, towed by Doug Suhr in his whaler, an ideal surface support vessel. He had fashioned a custom wooden frame that allowed towing from a point just aft of midships. That is where tugs and trawlers attach their tow lines, and it allowed the whaler to retain good control, whereas in the past I had found Snoopy often turned around the towboat when towed from the transom. The tow was unexpectedly interesting, because of the bottom rushing by and constantly changing scenery. Most of the time it would be sand and sea grass, but there were always changes and it would at times become more rocky, or turn to pure sand, and drop away or rise up to just a couple of feet from us. We rushed past or right through clouds of jellies. As Steve put it, it felt like an arcade game. I have no idea how hot it was inside the sub, but it was surely an outrageous number. Prior to departure we had applied detergent to the viewports to prevent them from fogging. That succeeded on the forward viewport, but with that single exception every other surface in the boat streamed water profusely. Every ten minutes or so I would pick up a rapidly dwindling bag of ice and give it a hug, rest it on the back of my neck, or wear it as a hat. I went through five bottles of drinking water. Between the rolling of the boat, and the heat and humidity, I found myself getting a bit woozy. It was not sea sickness so much as a feeling of light-headedness, so we tried increasing the oxygen concentration in the cabin to counteract it. Between us we had been consuming ? liters of oxygen per minute, with the analyzer readings hovering around 19 percent and a fraction. We bumped up the flow to 4 liters per minute until the oxygen concentration reached 23 percent, a limit above which the cabin atmosphere would have become a fire hazard. That is only two percent above normal, but it made us both feel perceptibly better. We arrived at the dive site two hours after closing the hatch, and rather incredibly only four minutes after our target time of low tide. The twenty pounds of ice had all melted. Our normal tow speed is three knots, and the distance was only four miles, but some ?hatch closed? time was spent getting underway, some was spent on a stop to re-position the towel when it was displaced by waves washing over the dome, and some was spent on the final locating of the site.? Doug anchored the whaler and Scott swam over to remove our towel sunshade, and to attach a video camera to the sub. In the previous few days the heat and humidity had already led to the failure of a depth sounder and a compass, so I had decided not to risk the good camera inside the sub. In tropical climates at least, the cabin is a very dangerous place for electronics. We initiated our dive and tested communications as soon as the transducer went under water. The gear worked, yet the communications were very faint. Snoopy?s transducers are mounted above the hull and immediately behind the conning tower. Being just beneath the surface and pointed in the direction of the whaler, the transducer?s line of sight to the boat was blocked by the conning tower. Once at depth the communications were loud and clear. The reef was unfortunately not healthy, as all reefs in this part of the world, yet it was absolutely fantastic compared to the lakes Snoopy normally dives in. There were large sponges, fish, and interesting terrain. In particular, we found ?streets? of sand running between raised mounds of coral on either side, reminiscent of scenes in the movie 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Visibility was about fifty feet. In Snoopy, almost all the viewing underwater is done through the bow viewport. Through the dome it is very hard to see the bottom unless diving alongside a wall or quite high terrain, and even in that scenario optical distortion causes features to appear very small and far off. Nonetheless, while I could hardly see the bottom through the dome, I did see a column of bubbles rising in the distance and steered Snoopy in their direction. It was Scott, who had found a lost anchor. He tied it to Snoopy?s pickup arm, and we blew some air into the ballast tanks and delivered it to the boat. We continued wandering the bottom, sometimes letting the current waft us along sideways and other times using the stern thruster to follow the ?sand roads?. These gradually led into deeper water, and we followed them hoping for the continental shelf drop-off that is only a short distance from Pickles reef. We started at thirty feet, and followed these paths down to a little over fifty feet, but unfortunately did not make it as far as the drop-off. Snoopy was ballasted ever so slightly buoyant, perhaps just a pound or two. One side thruster was locked in a straight down position, the other slightly inclined to counter the rotation induced by the props. Indeed the props only needed to turn very slowly to maintain depth, as if turned by hand instead of by a motor.?To slowly rise I would shut them off, or I would speed them up to descend. The side thruster throttle acted as a ?depth knob?, allowing depth to be controlled with an accuracy of a couple of inches. Laying prone and looking out of the forward viewport, Steve had a good view of upcoming terrain. He acted as observer, calling out details about what lay ahead and asking for port or starboard headings and altitude adjustments. One tries to stay close to the bottom in order to see it better, but not touch anything in order to avoid damaging the reef. He took a turn at the controls as well, which in Snoopy does not mean that we changed places, but rather that we passed the remote controller between us.? At one point we lost communications with the surface. We were to learn later that the whaler had re-positioned to follow us, and in doing so ran over its transducer cable, severing it and losing the transducer. The whaler could have tracked us by our acoustic pinger, but instead simply followed the bubbles of our support divers, who were following us by sight in the clear water. After an hour and a half of contented wandering, we suddenly sensed that the stern thruster had lost power. A moment later we both noticed a smell of burning. I turned off power to the stern thruster speed control, looked up to ensure we were not under the whaler, and immediately initiated a ballast blow, which gives a much faster rate of ascent than the thrusters. We could have continued maneuvering on side thrusters only, but it seemed prudent to call the dive. Afterwards I would discover that a little piece of fan coral had been sucked in by the stern thruster, and wedged between the propeller and its shroud. It was very tough material, and it locked up the thruster causing its speed controller to burn out. Although the speed controllers are supposed to have over-current protection, I will be adding breakers in the near future. One more surprise awaited us during the tow back to shore. After about an hour of towing, we had reached a spot at which the waves were lower, and we were on the radio to the whaler planning to pause the tow and transfer to her. But just then there was suddenly a very loud pop in the cabin, and my immediate thought was of a ruptured high pressure line. It was followed a second later by another equally loud pop. I was puzzled by the fact my ears were not registering any increase in cabin pressure, when I saw Steve?s life preserver inflating. These life preservers are of the type that resembles suspenders, inflated by a CO2 cartridge which Steve?s movement had accidentally triggered. For a moment it looked like his PFD might strangle him in the tight space, but he managed to wriggle out of it. I?ll be looking at some way to secure the rip cord on these PFDs, to make accidental deployment a little less likely. There is precious little space in Snoopy under normal conditions, but with an inflated PFD the lack of space becomes almost comical. Finally we came aboard the whaler. Being in the tower, I stowed my seat, climbed out, and closed the hatch quickly behind me. This allowed Steve to reposition himself into the tower without fear of being swamped while doing so. The hatch opened again, Steve jumped out, and we were both on deck. It had been five hours since we closed the hatch. It was only once back on the whaler I saw Steve was quite hungry. It was six in the evening, and he had avoided eating anything all day, anticipating that it would be a long dive and knowing that Snoopy has no head. Now that is dedication! Cheers, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Oct 6 17:46:25 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 14:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <1381091399.9224.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381067000.33539.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381070199.26505.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381074333.77224.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1381091399.9224.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381095985.46793.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, I will post a picture Joe.? Don't dismiss a diesel to fast.? They generate very little heat with a water cooled exhaust manifold.? Vance has mentioned that Gamma can be towed at 10 knots, it is a pretty slippery design.? It also does 3.5 knots at 70 amps 24v?so far as I can tell.? Hank From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 2:29:59 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Hank, ? There's a nice picture of Gamma on the net silhouetted against the surface, its a beautiful shot, look for it if you don't have it Ill send it. Please image that?battery box arrangement when you have a moment for your project page, I think that is a superior arrangement to pods for towing. It's looking like 42" is the new 36. I had wanted to keep the weight down, but I just don't see it happening. ? Joe ? From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Joe, I had not given much consideration to tow ability until I did deep tests on my small sub.? It tows like a brick and takes forever to get to a desired spot.??I would recommend increasing diameter rather than length.? For one, working inside a 36in shell is very cramped.? A 44in to 48in?shell is?ideal, without going crazy on volume.? Today I painted the interior of Gamma and I was able to sit upright with my feet in the battery boxes and it was very comfortable.? Gamma is 42in dia. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 8:36:39 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef ....and given a choice between lengthening or widening for increased interior volume, (keeping in mind tow-ability and trailer-ability) ? What is the general consensus? ? Joe From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Alec, ? I second Hugh's remarks, well written! ? These are my conditions, that I will need to contend with, ?in reading this I come to two absolute conclusions with regard to redesign. ? 1) Mitigating the swamp risk. ? 2) Aggressive enviromental control, (This means AC and condensation control, which means in turn an upward design spiral) ? When you get back, a wish list would be most helpful ? ? Joe From: Alec Smyth To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 1:17 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In Islamorada for the 2013 PSUBS convention, we tried a few days ago to dive the reefs off the Atlantic side of the island. After towing Snoopy out to the dive site, I had to call off the dive because a three foot chop made it unsafe to board. I made it aboard myself, but water was splashing over the hatch land, and with the weight of a second person it would have been touch and go. When their hatches are open, these little boats are like holes in the water just waiting to be filled up by the next wave. Three foot waves are not large, and they are entirely normal a few miles from shore, but they are just beyond practical conditions for Snoopy. For our second attempt on the reefs we changed tactics, deciding to board at the boat ramp and make the tow under a closed hatch. This would guarantee a dive regardless of wave conditions, but also introduce a new challenge. With a temperature of 89 degrees above the surface and 86 degrees below it, the problem was now how to avoid getting cooked during the tow. There was hardly a cloud in the sky, and Snoopy?s big acrylic dome hatch transforms her cabin into a greenhouse. The pilot, with his head in the middle of the dome, feels that he is under a giant magnifying glass. Hot air rises. Steve McQueen and I boarded at Harry Harris state park at 12:30, after having spent the morning at the local school giving four hundred local children a tour of the sub. Snoopy?s payload can be maximized by adding buoyancy spheres. We installed every available one, and used their buoyancy to load twenty pounds of ice inside the cabin. Our support diver, Scott Waters, attached a white hotel towel over the dome with bungee cord, and then tied off the tow line. We set out, towed by Doug Suhr in his whaler, an ideal surface support vessel. He had fashioned a custom wooden frame that allowed towing from a point just aft of midships. That is where tugs and trawlers attach their tow lines, and it allowed the whaler to retain good control, whereas in the past I had found Snoopy often turned around the towboat when towed from the transom. The tow was unexpectedly interesting, because of the bottom rushing by and constantly changing scenery. Most of the time it would be sand and sea grass, but there were always changes and it would at times become more rocky, or turn to pure sand, and drop away or rise up to just a couple of feet from us. We rushed past or right through clouds of jellies. As Steve put it, it felt like an arcade game. I have no idea how hot it was inside the sub, but it was surely an outrageous number. Prior to departure we had applied detergent to the viewports to prevent them from fogging. That succeeded on the forward viewport, but with that single exception every other surface in the boat streamed water profusely. Every ten minutes or so I would pick up a rapidly dwindling bag of ice and give it a hug, rest it on the back of my neck, or wear it as a hat. I went through five bottles of drinking water. Between the rolling of the boat, and the heat and humidity, I found myself getting a bit woozy. It was not sea sickness so much as a feeling of light-headedness, so we tried increasing the oxygen concentration in the cabin to counteract it. Between us we had been consuming ? liters of oxygen per minute, with the analyzer readings hovering around 19 percent and a fraction. We bumped up the flow to 4 liters per minute until the oxygen concentration reached 23 percent, a limit above which the cabin atmosphere would have become a fire hazard. That is only two percent above normal, but it made us both feel perceptibly better. We arrived at the dive site two hours after closing the hatch, and rather incredibly only four minutes after our target time of low tide. The twenty pounds of ice had all melted. Our normal tow speed is three knots, and the distance was only four miles, but some ?hatch closed? time was spent getting underway, some was spent on a stop to re-position the towel when it was displaced by waves washing over the dome, and some was spent on the final locating of the site.? Doug anchored the whaler and Scott swam over to remove our towel sunshade, and to attach a video camera to the sub. In the previous few days the heat and humidity had already led to the failure of a depth sounder and a compass, so I had decided not to risk the good camera inside the sub. In tropical climates at least, the cabin is a very dangerous place for electronics. We initiated our dive and tested communications as soon as the transducer went under water. The gear worked, yet the communications were very faint. Snoopy?s transducers are mounted above the hull and immediately behind the conning tower. Being just beneath the surface and pointed in the direction of the whaler, the transducer?s line of sight to the boat was blocked by the conning tower. Once at depth the communications were loud and clear. The reef was unfortunately not healthy, as all reefs in this part of the world, yet it was absolutely fantastic compared to the lakes Snoopy normally dives in. There were large sponges, fish, and interesting terrain. In particular, we found ?streets? of sand running between raised mounds of coral on either side, reminiscent of scenes in the movie 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Visibility was about fifty feet. In Snoopy, almost all the viewing underwater is done through the bow viewport. Through the dome it is very hard to see the bottom unless diving alongside a wall or quite high terrain, and even in that scenario optical distortion causes features to appear very small and far off. Nonetheless, while I could hardly see the bottom through the dome, I did see a column of bubbles rising in the distance and steered Snoopy in their direction. It was Scott, who had found a lost anchor. He tied it to Snoopy?s pickup arm, and we blew some air into the ballast tanks and delivered it to the boat. We continued wandering the bottom, sometimes letting the current waft us along sideways and other times using the stern thruster to follow the ?sand roads?. These gradually led into deeper water, and we followed them hoping for the continental shelf drop-off that is only a short distance from Pickles reef. We started at thirty feet, and followed these paths down to a little over fifty feet, but unfortunately did not make it as far as the drop-off. Snoopy was ballasted ever so slightly buoyant, perhaps just a pound or two. One side thruster was locked in a straight down position, the other slightly inclined to counter the rotation induced by the props. Indeed the props only needed to turn very slowly to maintain depth, as if turned by hand instead of by a motor.?To slowly rise I would shut them off, or I would speed them up to descend. The side thruster throttle acted as a ?depth knob?, allowing depth to be controlled with an accuracy of a couple of inches. Laying prone and looking out of the forward viewport, Steve had a good view of upcoming terrain. He acted as observer, calling out details about what lay ahead and asking for port or starboard headings and altitude adjustments. One tries to stay close to the bottom in order to see it better, but not touch anything in order to avoid damaging the reef. He took a turn at the controls as well, which in Snoopy does not mean that we changed places, but rather that we passed the remote controller between us.? At one point we lost communications with the surface. We were to learn later that the whaler had re-positioned to follow us, and in doing so ran over its transducer cable, severing it and losing the transducer. The whaler could have tracked us by our acoustic pinger, but instead simply followed the bubbles of our support divers, who were following us by sight in the clear water. After an hour and a half of contented wandering, we suddenly sensed that the stern thruster had lost power. A moment later we both noticed a smell of burning. I turned off power to the stern thruster speed control, looked up to ensure we were not under the whaler, and immediately initiated a ballast blow, which gives a much faster rate of ascent than the thrusters. We could have continued maneuvering on side thrusters only, but it seemed prudent to call the dive. Afterwards I would discover that a little piece of fan coral had been sucked in by the stern thruster, and wedged between the propeller and its shroud. It was very tough material, and it locked up the thruster causing its speed controller to burn out. Although the speed controllers are supposed to have over-current protection, I will be adding breakers in the near future. One more surprise awaited us during the tow back to shore. After about an hour of towing, we had reached a spot at which the waves were lower, and we were on the radio to the whaler planning to pause the tow and transfer to her. But just then there was suddenly a very loud pop in the cabin, and my immediate thought was of a ruptured high pressure line. It was followed a second later by another equally loud pop. I was puzzled by the fact my ears were not registering any increase in cabin pressure, when I saw Steve?s life preserver inflating. These life preservers are of the type that resembles suspenders, inflated by a CO2 cartridge which Steve?s movement had accidentally triggered. For a moment it looked like his PFD might strangle him in the tight space, but he managed to wriggle out of it. I?ll be looking at some way to secure the rip cord on these PFDs, to make accidental deployment a little less likely. There is precious little space in Snoopy under normal conditions, but with an inflated PFD the lack of space becomes almost comical. Finally we came aboard the whaler. Being in the tower, I stowed my seat, climbed out, and closed the hatch quickly behind me. This allowed Steve to reposition himself into the tower without fear of being swamped while doing so. The hatch opened again, Steve jumped out, and we were both on deck. It had been five hours since we closed the hatch. It was only once back on the whaler I saw Steve was quite hungry. It was six in the evening, and he had avoided eating anything all day, anticipating that it would be a long dive and knowing that Snoopy has no head. Now that is dedication! Cheers, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Oct 6 17:51:34 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 14:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <1381091399.9224.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381067000.33539.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381070199.26505.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381074333.77224.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1381091399.9224.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381096294.48333.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, Yes please send the picture. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 2:29:59 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Hank, ? There's a nice picture of Gamma on the net silhouetted against the surface, its a beautiful shot, look for it if you don't have it Ill send it. Please image that?battery box arrangement when you have a moment for your project page, I think that is a superior arrangement to pods for towing. It's looking like 42" is the new 36. I had wanted to keep the weight down, but I just don't see it happening. ? Joe ? From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Joe, I had not given much consideration to tow ability until I did deep tests on my small sub.? It tows like a brick and takes forever to get to a desired spot.??I would recommend increasing diameter rather than length.? For one, working inside a 36in shell is very cramped.? A 44in to 48in?shell is?ideal, without going crazy on volume.? Today I painted the interior of Gamma and I was able to sit upright with my feet in the battery boxes and it was very comfortable.? Gamma is 42in dia. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 8:36:39 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef ....and given a choice between lengthening or widening for increased interior volume, (keeping in mind tow-ability and trailer-ability) ? What is the general consensus? ? Joe From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Alec, ? I second Hugh's remarks, well written! ? These are my conditions, that I will need to contend with, ?in reading this I come to two absolute conclusions with regard to redesign. ? 1) Mitigating the swamp risk. ? 2) Aggressive enviromental control, (This means AC and condensation control, which means in turn an upward design spiral) ? When you get back, a wish list would be most helpful ? ? Joe From: Alec Smyth To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 1:17 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In Islamorada for the 2013 PSUBS convention, we tried a few days ago to dive the reefs off the Atlantic side of the island. After towing Snoopy out to the dive site, I had to call off the dive because a three foot chop made it unsafe to board. I made it aboard myself, but water was splashing over the hatch land, and with the weight of a second person it would have been touch and go. When their hatches are open, these little boats are like holes in the water just waiting to be filled up by the next wave. Three foot waves are not large, and they are entirely normal a few miles from shore, but they are just beyond practical conditions for Snoopy. For our second attempt on the reefs we changed tactics, deciding to board at the boat ramp and make the tow under a closed hatch. This would guarantee a dive regardless of wave conditions, but also introduce a new challenge. With a temperature of 89 degrees above the surface and 86 degrees below it, the problem was now how to avoid getting cooked during the tow. There was hardly a cloud in the sky, and Snoopy?s big acrylic dome hatch transforms her cabin into a greenhouse. The pilot, with his head in the middle of the dome, feels that he is under a giant magnifying glass. Hot air rises. Steve McQueen and I boarded at Harry Harris state park at 12:30, after having spent the morning at the local school giving four hundred local children a tour of the sub. Snoopy?s payload can be maximized by adding buoyancy spheres. We installed every available one, and used their buoyancy to load twenty pounds of ice inside the cabin. Our support diver, Scott Waters, attached a white hotel towel over the dome with bungee cord, and then tied off the tow line. We set out, towed by Doug Suhr in his whaler, an ideal surface support vessel. He had fashioned a custom wooden frame that allowed towing from a point just aft of midships. That is where tugs and trawlers attach their tow lines, and it allowed the whaler to retain good control, whereas in the past I had found Snoopy often turned around the towboat when towed from the transom. The tow was unexpectedly interesting, because of the bottom rushing by and constantly changing scenery. Most of the time it would be sand and sea grass, but there were always changes and it would at times become more rocky, or turn to pure sand, and drop away or rise up to just a couple of feet from us. We rushed past or right through clouds of jellies. As Steve put it, it felt like an arcade game. I have no idea how hot it was inside the sub, but it was surely an outrageous number. Prior to departure we had applied detergent to the viewports to prevent them from fogging. That succeeded on the forward viewport, but with that single exception every other surface in the boat streamed water profusely. Every ten minutes or so I would pick up a rapidly dwindling bag of ice and give it a hug, rest it on the back of my neck, or wear it as a hat. I went through five bottles of drinking water. Between the rolling of the boat, and the heat and humidity, I found myself getting a bit woozy. It was not sea sickness so much as a feeling of light-headedness, so we tried increasing the oxygen concentration in the cabin to counteract it. Between us we had been consuming ? liters of oxygen per minute, with the analyzer readings hovering around 19 percent and a fraction. We bumped up the flow to 4 liters per minute until the oxygen concentration reached 23 percent, a limit above which the cabin atmosphere would have become a fire hazard. That is only two percent above normal, but it made us both feel perceptibly better. We arrived at the dive site two hours after closing the hatch, and rather incredibly only four minutes after our target time of low tide. The twenty pounds of ice had all melted. Our normal tow speed is three knots, and the distance was only four miles, but some ?hatch closed? time was spent getting underway, some was spent on a stop to re-position the towel when it was displaced by waves washing over the dome, and some was spent on the final locating of the site.? Doug anchored the whaler and Scott swam over to remove our towel sunshade, and to attach a video camera to the sub. In the previous few days the heat and humidity had already led to the failure of a depth sounder and a compass, so I had decided not to risk the good camera inside the sub. In tropical climates at least, the cabin is a very dangerous place for electronics. We initiated our dive and tested communications as soon as the transducer went under water. The gear worked, yet the communications were very faint. Snoopy?s transducers are mounted above the hull and immediately behind the conning tower. Being just beneath the surface and pointed in the direction of the whaler, the transducer?s line of sight to the boat was blocked by the conning tower. Once at depth the communications were loud and clear. The reef was unfortunately not healthy, as all reefs in this part of the world, yet it was absolutely fantastic compared to the lakes Snoopy normally dives in. There were large sponges, fish, and interesting terrain. In particular, we found ?streets? of sand running between raised mounds of coral on either side, reminiscent of scenes in the movie 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Visibility was about fifty feet. In Snoopy, almost all the viewing underwater is done through the bow viewport. Through the dome it is very hard to see the bottom unless diving alongside a wall or quite high terrain, and even in that scenario optical distortion causes features to appear very small and far off. Nonetheless, while I could hardly see the bottom through the dome, I did see a column of bubbles rising in the distance and steered Snoopy in their direction. It was Scott, who had found a lost anchor. He tied it to Snoopy?s pickup arm, and we blew some air into the ballast tanks and delivered it to the boat. We continued wandering the bottom, sometimes letting the current waft us along sideways and other times using the stern thruster to follow the ?sand roads?. These gradually led into deeper water, and we followed them hoping for the continental shelf drop-off that is only a short distance from Pickles reef. We started at thirty feet, and followed these paths down to a little over fifty feet, but unfortunately did not make it as far as the drop-off. Snoopy was ballasted ever so slightly buoyant, perhaps just a pound or two. One side thruster was locked in a straight down position, the other slightly inclined to counter the rotation induced by the props. Indeed the props only needed to turn very slowly to maintain depth, as if turned by hand instead of by a motor.?To slowly rise I would shut them off, or I would speed them up to descend. The side thruster throttle acted as a ?depth knob?, allowing depth to be controlled with an accuracy of a couple of inches. Laying prone and looking out of the forward viewport, Steve had a good view of upcoming terrain. He acted as observer, calling out details about what lay ahead and asking for port or starboard headings and altitude adjustments. One tries to stay close to the bottom in order to see it better, but not touch anything in order to avoid damaging the reef. He took a turn at the controls as well, which in Snoopy does not mean that we changed places, but rather that we passed the remote controller between us.? At one point we lost communications with the surface. We were to learn later that the whaler had re-positioned to follow us, and in doing so ran over its transducer cable, severing it and losing the transducer. The whaler could have tracked us by our acoustic pinger, but instead simply followed the bubbles of our support divers, who were following us by sight in the clear water. After an hour and a half of contented wandering, we suddenly sensed that the stern thruster had lost power. A moment later we both noticed a smell of burning. I turned off power to the stern thruster speed control, looked up to ensure we were not under the whaler, and immediately initiated a ballast blow, which gives a much faster rate of ascent than the thrusters. We could have continued maneuvering on side thrusters only, but it seemed prudent to call the dive. Afterwards I would discover that a little piece of fan coral had been sucked in by the stern thruster, and wedged between the propeller and its shroud. It was very tough material, and it locked up the thruster causing its speed controller to burn out. Although the speed controllers are supposed to have over-current protection, I will be adding breakers in the near future. One more surprise awaited us during the tow back to shore. After about an hour of towing, we had reached a spot at which the waves were lower, and we were on the radio to the whaler planning to pause the tow and transfer to her. But just then there was suddenly a very loud pop in the cabin, and my immediate thought was of a ruptured high pressure line. It was followed a second later by another equally loud pop. I was puzzled by the fact my ears were not registering any increase in cabin pressure, when I saw Steve?s life preserver inflating. These life preservers are of the type that resembles suspenders, inflated by a CO2 cartridge which Steve?s movement had accidentally triggered. For a moment it looked like his PFD might strangle him in the tight space, but he managed to wriggle out of it. I?ll be looking at some way to secure the rip cord on these PFDs, to make accidental deployment a little less likely. There is precious little space in Snoopy under normal conditions, but with an inflated PFD the lack of space becomes almost comical. Finally we came aboard the whaler. Being in the tower, I stowed my seat, climbed out, and closed the hatch quickly behind me. This allowed Steve to reposition himself into the tower without fear of being swamped while doing so. The hatch opened again, Steve jumped out, and we were both on deck. It had been five hours since we closed the hatch. It was only once back on the whaler I saw Steve was quite hungry. It was six in the evening, and he had avoided eating anything all day, anticipating that it would be a long dive and knowing that Snoopy has no head. Now that is dedication! Cheers, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Alec.Smyth at covisint.com Sun Oct 6 18:16:08 2013 From: Alec.Smyth at covisint.com (Smyth, Alec) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 22:16:08 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <1381093523.85730.YahooMailNeo@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: , <1381067000.33539.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5D5501A0-786F-45CF-BB9A-7F8908C1397C@covisint.com>, <1381093523.85730.YahooMailNeo@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: How about a small catamaran tender running A/C and blowing cold air into the sub when in transit? Sub could snugged up against it from beneath, not actually lifter on deck. On Oct 6, 2013, at 5:10 PM, "Joe Perkel" > wrote: Alec, Your experience renders what I had in mind for the K-350 untenable. That post was very helpful as I am quite familiar with the conditions. On the first problem, I'm inclined now to widen the hull and dispense with the conning tower completely in favor of a low profile hatch. This would be surrounded by a free flooding FRP tower ala Alvin. The question now is what diameter to accommodate two with comfortably and practically with all of the electronic goodies I have in mind. On environmental, this is a conundrum caused by a subtropical environment and lack of appropriate surface support. There's no getting around the fact that if you don't own an RV Atlantis with a dedicated sub hangar and A-Frame, then a radical but practical home grown solution must be found if you want to dive in Florida. One could conceivably plumb the exhaust water circulation of a 3500 BTU marine air unit to an external heat exchanger and scavenge the condensation to an internal water tank trim system. This unit could be powered by a removable portable Honda gas generator riding aft of the tower while on the surface. The idea is to scavenge all of that water and cool the interior prior to diving. The unit could be shut down or run off batteries after removal of the portable gen set depending on conditions. I don't like an internal diesel for such a small enclosed space, what to do with the generated heat is a vicious cycle, and a separate machinery hull is asking for trouble ala Pisces III. In any case some measure of surface support for battery charging and HP exchanges is a must. Joe From: "Smyth, Alec" > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef We'll I'm not back yet, but I'm ensconced in the Auto-train, so nothing to do now for the next 17 hours. I'm concentrating on the next sub, but if I wanted to make further changes to Snoopy, my next thing would be to replace the dome hatch with a cylindrical tube of acrylic about a foot tall, that would sit on the existing hatch land. I would replace the dome hatch with a standard steel hatch. The K250 conning tower is low because it is designed to be looked OVER, whereas a K350 tower has viewports so you look through it. With an extra foot of freeboard, waves would pose a considerably reduced threat. Having said that, I have no idea what the optical qualities of a cylinder might be. Unfortunately I don't think a K-250 sized boat has either the space for A/C equipment nor the batteries to run it. But if it had more freeboard, you might need to close the hatch less and that alone would go a long way toward improving things. Cheers, Alec On Oct 6, 2013, at 9:48 AM, "Joe Perkel" > wrote: Alec, I second Hugh's remarks, well written! These are my conditions, that I will need to contend with, in reading this I come to two absolute conclusions with regard to redesign. 1) Mitigating the swamp risk. 2) Aggressive enviromental control, (This means AC and condensation control, which means in turn an upward design spiral) When you get back, a wish list would be most helpful Joe From: Alec Smyth > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 1:17 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In Islamorada for the 2013 PSUBS convention, we tried a few days ago to dive the reefs off the Atlantic side of the island. After towing Snoopy out to the dive site, I had to call off the dive because a three foot chop made it unsafe to board. I made it aboard myself, but water was splashing over the hatch land, and with the weight of a second person it would have been touch and go. When their hatches are open, these little boats are like holes in the water just waiting to be filled up by the next wave. Three foot waves are not large, and they are entirely normal a few miles from shore, but they are just beyond practical conditions for Snoopy. For our second attempt on the reefs we changed tactics, deciding to board at the boat ramp and make the tow under a closed hatch. This would guarantee a dive regardless of wave conditions, but also introduce a new challenge. With a temperature of 89 degrees above the surface and 86 degrees below it, the problem was now how to avoid getting cooked during the tow. There was hardly a cloud in the sky, and Snoopy?s big acrylic dome hatch transforms her cabin into a greenhouse. The pilot, with his head in the middle of the dome, feels that he is under a giant magnifying glass. Hot air rises. Steve McQueen and I boarded at Harry Harris state park at 12:30, after having spent the morning at the local school giving four hundred local children a tour of the sub. Snoopy?s payload can be maximized by adding buoyancy spheres. We installed every available one, and used their buoyancy to load twenty pounds of ice inside the cabin. Our support diver, Scott Waters, attached a white hotel towel over the dome with bungee cord, and then tied off the tow line. We set out, towed by Doug Suhr in his whaler, an ideal surface support vessel. He had fashioned a custom wooden frame that allowed towing from a point just aft of midships. That is where tugs and trawlers attach their tow lines, and it allowed the whaler to retain good control, whereas in the past I had found Snoopy often turned around the towboat when towed from the transom. The tow was unexpectedly interesting, because of the bottom rushing by and constantly changing scenery. Most of the time it would be sand and sea grass, but there were always changes and it would at times become more rocky, or turn to pure sand, and drop away or rise up to just a couple of feet from us. We rushed past or right through clouds of jellies. As Steve put it, it felt like an arcade game. I have no idea how hot it was inside the sub, but it was surely an outrageous number. Prior to departure we had applied detergent to the viewports to prevent them from fogging. That succeeded on the forward viewport, but with that single exception every other surface in the boat streamed water profusely. Every ten minutes or so I would pick up a rapidly dwindling bag of ice and give it a hug, rest it on the back of my neck, or wear it as a hat. I went through five bottles of drinking water. Between the rolling of the boat, and the heat and humidity, I found myself getting a bit woozy. It was not sea sickness so much as a feeling of light-headedness, so we tried increasing the oxygen concentration in the cabin to counteract it. Between us we had been consuming ? liters of oxygen per minute, with the analyzer readings hovering around 19 percent and a fraction. We bumped up the flow to 4 liters per minute until the oxygen concentration reached 23 percent, a limit above which the cabin atmosphere would have become a fire hazard. That is only two percent above normal, but it made us both feel perceptibly better. We arrived at the dive site two hours after closing the hatch, and rather incredibly only four minutes after our target time of low tide. The twenty pounds of ice had all melted. Our normal tow speed is three knots, and the distance was only four miles, but some ?hatch closed? time was spent getting underway, some was spent on a stop to re-position the towel when it was displaced by waves washing over the dome, and some was spent on the final locating of the site. Doug anchored the whaler and Scott swam over to remove our towel sunshade, and to attach a video camera to the sub. In the previous few days the heat and humidity had already led to the failure of a depth sounder and a compass, so I had decided not to risk the good camera inside the sub. In tropical climates at least, the cabin is a very dangerous place for electronics. We initiated our dive and tested communications as soon as the transducer went under water. The gear worked, yet the communications were very faint. Snoopy?s transducers are mounted above the hull and immediately behind the conning tower. Being just beneath the surface and pointed in the direction of the whaler, the transducer?s line of sight to the boat was blocked by the conning tower. Once at depth the communications were loud and clear. The reef was unfortunately not healthy, as all reefs in this part of the world, yet it was absolutely fantastic compared to the lakes Snoopy normally dives in. There were large sponges, fish, and interesting terrain. In particular, we found ?streets? of sand running between raised mounds of coral on either side, reminiscent of scenes in the movie 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Visibility was about fifty feet. In Snoopy, almost all the viewing underwater is done through the bow viewport. Through the dome it is very hard to see the bottom unless diving alongside a wall or quite high terrain, and even in that scenario optical distortion causes features to appear very small and far off. Nonetheless, while I could hardly see the bottom through the dome, I did see a column of bubbles rising in the distance and steered Snoopy in their direction. It was Scott, who had found a lost anchor. He tied it to Snoopy?s pickup arm, and we blew some air into the ballast tanks and delivered it to the boat. We continued wandering the bottom, sometimes letting the current waft us along sideways and other times using the stern thruster to follow the ?sand roads?. These gradually led into deeper water, and we followed them hoping for the continental shelf drop-off that is only a short distance from Pickles reef. We started at thirty feet, and followed these paths down to a little over fifty feet, but unfortunately did not make it as far as the drop-off. Snoopy was ballasted ever so slightly buoyant, perhaps just a pound or two. One side thruster was locked in a straight down position, the other slightly inclined to counter the rotation induced by the props. Indeed the props only needed to turn very slowly to maintain depth, as if turned by hand instead of by a motor. To slowly rise I would shut them off, or I would speed them up to descend. The side thruster throttle acted as a ?depth knob?, allowing depth to be controlled with an accuracy of a couple of inches. Laying prone and looking out of the forward viewport, Steve had a good view of upcoming terrain. He acted as observer, calling out details about what lay ahead and asking for port or starboard headings and altitude adjustments. One tries to stay close to the bottom in order to see it better, but not touch anything in order to avoid damaging the reef. He took a turn at the controls as well, which in Snoopy does not mean that we changed places, but rather that we passed the remote controller between us. At one point we lost communications with the surface. We were to learn later that the whaler had re-positioned to follow us, and in doing so ran over its transducer cable, severing it and losing the transducer. The whaler could have tracked us by our acoustic pinger, but instead simply followed the bubbles of our support divers, who were following us by sight in the clear water. After an hour and a half of contented wandering, we suddenly sensed that the stern thruster had lost power. A moment later we both noticed a smell of burning. I turned off power to the stern thruster speed control, looked up to ensure we were not under the whaler, and immediately initiated a ballast blow, which gives a much faster rate of ascent than the thrusters. We could have continued maneuvering on side thrusters only, but it seemed prudent to call the dive. Afterwards I would discover that a little piece of fan coral had been sucked in by the stern thruster, and wedged between the propeller and its shroud. It was very tough material, and it locked up the thruster causing its speed controller to burn out. Although the speed controllers are supposed to have over-current protection, I will be adding breakers in the near future. One more surprise awaited us during the tow back to shore. After about an hour of towing, we had reached a spot at which the waves were lower, and we were on the radio to the whaler planning to pause the tow and transfer to her. But just then there was suddenly a very loud pop in the cabin, and my immediate thought was of a ruptured high pressure line. It was followed a second later by another equally loud pop. I was puzzled by the fact my ears were not registering any increase in cabin pressure, when I saw Steve?s life preserver inflating. These life preservers are of the type that resembles suspenders, inflated by a CO2 cartridge which Steve?s movement had accidentally triggered. For a moment it looked like his PFD might strangle him in the tight space, but he managed to wriggle out of it. I?ll be looking at some way to secure the rip cord on these PFDs, to make accidental deployment a little less likely. There is precious little space in Snoopy under normal conditions, but with an inflated PFD the lack of space becomes almost comical. Finally we came aboard the whaler. Being in the tower, I stowed my seat, climbed out, and closed the hatch quickly behind me. This allowed Steve to reposition himself into the tower without fear of being swamped while doing so. The hatch opened again, Steve jumped out, and we were both on deck. It had been five hours since we closed the hatch. It was only once back on the whaler I saw Steve was quite hungry. It was six in the evening, and he had avoided eating anything all day, anticipating that it would be a long dive and knowing that Snoopy has no head. Now that is dedication! Cheers, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Sun Oct 6 18:28:43 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 18:28:43 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Message-ID: <172ukh6w35081iixwxu79auj.1381098315399@email.android.com> I know basically nothing about HVAC. I am assuming taking a compressor outside of a car and running it on a 36 volt motor and running the tubing on the outside of the sub to disperse heat would consume to much power right? Anyone know how many amps at 36 volt, 24 volt, and 12 volt would be required to do something like this? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Sun Oct 6 18:39:31 2013 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 22:39:31 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Message-ID: <201310061539805.SM05128@[66.162.33.185]> I think this dive brings into sharp relief what I've been driving at in the design of my sub, which is,? a slightly larger vessel with more power ( and surface power) and more freeboard.? The trip out to the dive spot seemed a bit precarious to me,? but living on the west coast with 60 degree water I guess we have better temerature control where we are.? Not sure how I would deal with that kind of heat,? some sort of shade or reflective shield and try to get down to a thermalcline, but I guess it's real shallow there.? Great to hear the play by play though, thanks Alec for bringing the convention to those who couldn't make it ! Brian -----Original Message----- From: "Smyth, Alec" Sent 10/6/2013 3:16:08 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles ReefHow about a small catamaran tender running A/C and blowing cold air into the sub when in transit? Sub could snugged up against it from beneath, not actually lifter on deck. On Oct 6, 2013, at 5:10 PM, "Joe Perkel" wrote:Alec,?Your experience renders what I had in mind for the K-350 untenable. That post was very helpful as I am quite familiar with the conditions.?On the first problem, I'm inclined now to widen the hull and dispense with the conning tower completely in favor of a low profile hatch. This would be surrounded by a free flooding FRP tower ala Alvin. The question now is what diameter to accommodate two with comfortably and practically with all of the electronic goodies I have in mind.?On environmental, this is a conundrum caused by a subtropical environment and lack of appropriate surface support. There's no getting around the fact that if you don't own an RV Atlantis with a dedicated sub hangar and A-Frame, then a radical but practical home grown solution must be found if you want to dive in Florida.?One could conceivably?plumb the exhaust water?circulation of?a 3500 BTU marine air unit to an external heat exchanger and scavenge the condensation to an internal water tank?trim system. This unit could be powered by a removable portable Honda gas generator riding aft of the tower while on the surface. The idea is to scavenge all of that water and cool the interior prior to diving. The unit could be shut down or run off batteries after removal of the portable gen set?depending on conditions. ?I don't like an internal diesel for such a small enclosed space, what to do with the generated heat is a vicious cycle, and a?separate machinery hull is asking for trouble ala Pisces III. In any case some measure of surface support for battery charging and HP exchanges is a must.?Joe?From: "Smyth, Alec" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 3:34 PMSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles ReefWe'll I'm not back yet, but I'm ensconced in the Auto-train, so nothing to do now for the next 17 hours.I'm concentrating on the next sub, but if I wanted to make further changes to Snoopy, my next thing would be to replace the dome hatch with a cylindrical tube of acrylic about a foot tall, that would sit on the existing hatch land. I would replace the dome hatch with a standard steel hatch. The K250 conning tower is low because it is designed to be looked OVER, whereas a K350 tower has viewports so you look through it. With an extra foot of freeboard, waves would pose a considerably reduced threat.Having said that, I have no idea what the optical qualities of a cylinder might be.?Unfortunately I don't think a K-250 sized boat has either the space for A/C equipment nor the batteries to run it. But if it had more freeboard, you might need to close the hatch less and that alone would go a long way toward improving things.Cheers,Alec On Oct 6, 2013, at 9:48 AM, "Joe Perkel" wrote:Alec,?I second Hugh's remarks, well written!?These are my conditions, that I will need to contend with, ?in reading this I come to two absolute conclusions with regard to redesign.?1) Mitigating the swamp risk.?2) Aggressive enviromental control, (This means AC and condensation control, which means in turn an upward design spiral)?When you get back, a wish list would be most helpful??JoeFrom: Alec Smyth To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 1:17 AMSubject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles ReefIn Islamorada for the 2013 PSUBS convention, we tried a few days ago to dive the reefs off the Atlantic side of the island. After towing Snoopy out to the dive site, I had to call off the dive because a three foot chop made it unsafe to board. I made it aboard myself, but water was splashing over the hatch land, and with the weight of a second person it would have been touch and go. When their hatches are open, these little boats are like holes in the water just waiting to be filled up by the next wave. Three foot waves are not large, and they are entirely normal a few miles from shore, but they are just beyond practical conditions for Snoopy.For our second attempt on the reefs we changed tactics, deciding to board at the boat ramp and make the tow under a closed hatch. This would guarantee a dive regardless of wave conditions, but also introduce a new challenge. With a temperature of 89 degrees above the surface and 86 degrees below it, the problem was now how to avoid getting cooked during the tow. There was hardly a cloud in the sky, and Snoopy?s big acrylic dome hatch transforms her cabin into a greenhouse. The pilot, with his head in the middle of the dome, feels that he is under a giant magnifying glass. Hot air rises.Steve McQueen and I boarded at Harry Harris state park at 12:30, after having spent the morning at the local school giving four hundred local children a tour of the sub. Snoopy?s payload can be maximized by adding buoyancy spheres. We installed every available one, and used their buoyancy to load twenty pounds of ice inside the cabin. Our support diver, Scott Waters, attached a white hotel towel over the dome with bungee cord, and then tied off the tow line. We set out, towed by Doug Suhr in his whaler, an ideal surface support vessel. He had fashioned a custom wooden frame that allowed towing from a point just aft of midships. That is where tugs and trawlers attach their tow lines, and it allowed the whaler to retain good control, whereas in the past I had found Snoopy often turned around the towboat when towed from the transom.The tow was unexpectedly interesting, because of the bottom rushing by and constantly changing scenery. Most of the time it would be sand and sea grass, but there were always changes and it would at times become more rocky, or turn to pure sand, and drop away or rise up to just a couple of feet from us. We rushed past or right through clouds of jellies. As Steve put it, it felt like an arcade game.I have no idea how hot it was inside the sub, but it was surely an outrageous number. Prior to departure we had applied detergent to the viewports to prevent them from fogging. That succeeded on the forward viewport, but with that single exception every other surface in the boat streamed water profusely. Every ten minutes or so I would pick up a rapidly dwindling bag of ice and give it a hug, rest it on the back of my neck, or wear it as a hat. I went through five bottles of drinking water.Between the rolling of the boat, and the heat and humidity, I found myself getting a bit woozy. It was not sea sickness so much as a feeling of light-headedness, so we tried increasing the oxygen concentration in the cabin to counteract it. Between us we had been consuming ? liters of oxygen per minute, with the analyzer readings hovering around 19 percent and a fraction. We bumped up the flow to 4 liters per minute until the oxygen concentration reached 23 percent, a limit above which the cabin atmosphere would have become a fire hazard. That is only two percent above normal, but it made us both feel perceptibly better.We arrived at the dive site two hours after closing the hatch, and rather incredibly only four minutes after our target time of low tide. The twenty pounds of ice had all melted. Our normal tow speed is three knots, and the distance was only four miles, but some ?hatch closed? time was spent getting underway, some was spent on a stop to re-position the towel when it was displaced by waves washing over the dome, and some was spent on the final locating of the site.?Doug anchored the whaler and Scott swam over to remove our towel sunshade, and to attach a video camera to the sub. In the previous few days the heat and humidity had already led to the failure of a depth sounder and a compass, so I had decided not to risk the good camera inside the sub. In tropical climates at least, the cabin is a very dangerous place for electronics.We initiated our dive and tested communications as soon as the transducer went under water. The gear worked, yet the communications were very faint. Snoopy?s transducers are mounted above the hull and immediately behind the conning tower. Being just beneath the surface and pointed in the direction of the whaler, the transducer?s line of sight to the boat was blocked by the conning tower. Once at depth the communications were loud and clear.The reef was unfortunately not healthy, as all reefs in this part of the world, yet it was absolutely fantastic compared to the lakes Snoopy normally dives in. There were large sponges, fish, and interesting terrain. In particular, we found ?streets? of sand running between raised mounds of coral on either side, reminiscent of scenes in the movie 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Visibility was about fifty feet.In Snoopy, almost all the viewing underwater is done through the bow viewport. Through the dome it is very hard to see the bottom unless diving alongside a wall or quite high terrain, and even in that scenario optical distortion causes features to appear very small and far off. Nonetheless, while I could hardly see the bottom through the dome, I did see a column of bubbles rising in the distance and steered Snoopy in their direction. It was Scott, who had found a lost anchor. He tied it to Snoopy?s pickup arm, and we blew some air into the ballast tanks and delivered it to the boat.We continued wandering the bottom, sometimes letting the current waft us along sideways and other times using the stern thruster to follow the ?sand roads?. These gradually led into deeper water, and we followed them hoping for the continental shelf drop-off that is only a short distance from Pickles reef. We started at thirty feet, and followed these paths down to a little over fifty feet, but unfortunately did not make it as far as the drop-off.Snoopy was ballasted ever so slightly buoyant, perhaps just a pound or two. One side thruster was locked in a straight down position, the other slightly inclined to counter the rotation induced by the props. Indeed the props only needed to turn very slowly to maintain depth, as if turned by hand instead of by a motor.?To slowly rise I would shut them off, or I would speed them up to descend. The side thruster throttle acted as a ?depth knob?, allowing depth to be controlled with an accuracy of a couple of inches.Laying prone and looking out of the forward viewport, Steve had a good view of upcoming terrain. He acted as observer, calling out details about what lay ahead and asking for port or starboard headings and altitude adjustments. One tries to stay close to the bottom in order to see it better, but not touch anything in order to avoid damaging the reef. He took a turn at the controls as well, which in Snoopy does not mean that we changed places, but rather that we passed the remote controller between us.?At one point we lost communications with the surface. We were to learn later that the whaler had re-positioned to follow us, and in doing so ran over its transducer cable, severing it and losing the transducer. The whaler could have tracked us by our acoustic pinger, but instead simply followed the bubbles of our support divers, who were following us by sight in the clear water.After an hour and a half of contented wandering, we suddenly sensed that the stern thruster had lost power. A moment later we both noticed a smell of burning. I turned off power to the stern thruster speed control, looked up to ensure we were not under the whaler, and immediately initiated a ballast blow, which gives a much faster rate of ascent than the thrusters. We could have continued maneuvering on side thrusters only, but it seemed prudent to call the dive. Afterwards I would discover that a little piece of fan coral had been sucked in by the stern thruster, and wedged between the propeller and its shroud. It was very tough material, and it locked up the thruster causing its speed controller to burn out. Although the speed controllers are supposed to have over-current protection, I will be adding breakers in the near future.One more surprise awaited us during the tow back to shore. After about an hour of towing, we had reached a spot at which the waves were lower, and we were on the radio to the whaler planning to pause the tow and transfer to her. But just then there was suddenly a very loud pop in the cabin, and my immediate thought was of a ruptured high pressure line. It was followed a second later by another equally loud pop. I was puzzled by the fact my ears were not registering any increase in cabin pressure, when I saw Steve?s life preserver inflating. These life preservers are of the type that resembles suspenders, inflated by a CO2 cartridge which Steve?s movement had accidentally triggered. For a moment it looked like his PFD might strangle him in the tight space, but he managed to wriggle out of it. I?ll be looking at some way to secure the rip cord on these PFDs, to make accidental deployment a little less likely. There is precious little space in Snoopy under normal conditions, but with an inflated PFD the lack of space becomes almost comical.Finally we came aboard the whaler. Being in the tower, I stowed my seat, climbed out, and closed the hatch quickly behind me. This allowed Steve to reposition himself into the tower without fear of being swamped while doing so. The hatch opened again, Steve jumped out, and we were both on deck. It had been five hours since we closed the hatch.It was only once back on the whaler I saw Steve was quite hungry. It was six in the evening, and he had avoided eating anything all day, anticipating that it would be a long dive and knowing that Snoopy has no head. Now that is dedication!Cheers, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Oct 6 19:17:07 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 16:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In-Reply-To: <172ukh6w35081iixwxu79auj.1381098315399@email.android.com> References: <172ukh6w35081iixwxu79auj.1381098315399@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1381101427.48073.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Scott, I think it would be simpler to run a house AC unit off an inverter.? It takes at least 5hp to drive an AC pump in a vehicle.? You can also get 12V coolers that might have some potential.? I have the opposite problem, cold, at least we can dress for cold. Hank From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:28:43 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner I know basically nothing about HVAC. I am assuming taking a compressor outside of a car and running it on a 36 volt motor and running the tubing on the outside of the sub to disperse heat would consume to much power right? Anyone know how many amps at 36 volt, 24 volt, and 12 volt would be required to do something like this? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Sun Oct 6 20:40:10 2013 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 20:40:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Message-ID: Hank, The closest relevant experience I've had was with the A/C units on a motor home. I always had to run the generator if I wasn't plugged into shore power, so either way the A/C was running off 120v; batteries couldn't handle it. On a tender I'm planning on a small A/C configured as a portable unit of the right size to meet the need. Too large a unit (BTUs) can drop the temp without dehumidifying. A flat disk covers the open hatch, and a duct runs from the A/C unit through a hole in the disk. Another hole in the disk allows the warm, wet air to escape. Depending on the circumstances, it may or may not be best to duct the return to the A/C unit so cooled air is recycled through the unit and progressively stepped down in temperature. Dang it was cold when I got back to Missouri! Made me want to turn around and go back to Florida. Cheers, Jim In a message dated 10/6/2013 6:18:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time, hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca writes: Scott, I think it would be simpler to run a house AC unit off an inverter. It takes at least 5hp to drive an AC pump in a vehicle. You can also get 12V coolers that might have some potential. I have the opposite problem, cold, at least we can dress for cold. Hank From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:28:43 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner I know basically nothing about HVAC. I am assuming taking a compressor outside of a car and running it on a 36 volt motor and running the tubing on the outside of the sub to disperse heat would consume to much power right? Anyone know how many amps at 36 volt, 24 volt, and 12 volt would be required to do something like this? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 20:56:07 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 20:56:07 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SM Globule In-Reply-To: <1381087418.92472.YahooMailNeo@web140504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381087418.92472.YahooMailNeo@web140504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0F5F89EE-5B3F-4579-9C2C-BC0F48199252@yahoo.com> Hi Pete, It was made by Comex , France in 1974, is two man, has an operating depth of 300 meters ( roughly 1000ft ) & now resides in the Cherbourg submarine museum in Northern France, on loan from Comex. Saw it a couple of weeks ago & have a few photos of it. Alan Sent from my iPad On 6/10/2013, at 3:23 PM, Pete Niedermayr wrote: > Anybody know anything about this beast? > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Oct 6 21:13:44 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 18:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1381108424.85284.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jim, Batteries can handle it easy.? I have a 3,000w inverter and two golf cart batteries for power when we need ac on the job.? We can run a skill saw and what ever we need.? I like this better than a generator because we just turn it on and leave it all day.? It would be fun to experiment with a small ac unit.? I just don't have the need, I need heat, but that is easy.? You are probably right about not venting the unit.? I am sure there is a solution. Hank From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 6:40:10 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Hank, ? The closest relevant?experience I've had was with the A/C units on a motor home.? I always had to run the generator if I wasn't plugged into shore power, so either way the A/C was running off 120v; batteries couldn't handle it.? On a tender I'm planning on?a small A/C?configured as a portable unit of the right size to meet the need.? Too large a unit (BTUs) can drop the temp without dehumidifying.? ? A flat disk?covers the open hatch, and a duct runs from the A/C unit through a hole in the disk.? Another hole in the disk allows the warm, wet air to escape.? Depending on the circumstances, it may or may not be best to duct the return to the A/C unit so cooled air is recycled through the unit and progressively stepped down in temperature. ? Dang it was cold when?I got back to Missouri!? Made me want to turn around and go back to Florida. ? Cheers, Jim In a message dated 10/6/2013 6:18:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time, hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca writes: Scott, >I think it would be simpler to run a house AC unit off an inverter.? It takes at least 5hp to drive an AC pump in a vehicle.? You can also get 12V coolers that might have some potential.? I have the opposite problem, cold, at least we can dress for cold. >Hank > > >From: swaters >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:28:43 PM >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner > > > >I know basically nothing about HVAC. I am assuming taking a compressor outside of a car and running it on a 36 volt motor and running the tubing on the outside of the sub to disperse heat would consume to much power right? Anyone know how many amps at 36 volt, 24 volt, and 12 volt would be required to do something like this? >Thanks, >Scott Waters > > > > > > > > >Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Sun Oct 6 21:13:46 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 21:13:46 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Message-ID: That is something to think about. How does the subs at Triton or Nuytco put in A/C and heat? Just a big motor and alot of battery power? This whole idea may just not be practical for our subs, but I think worth exploring after I saw Alec amd Steve get out of snoopy the other day.? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphonehank pronk wrote:Scott, I think it would be simpler to run a house AC unit off an inverter.? It takes at least 5hp to drive an AC pump in a vehicle.? You can also get 12V coolers that might have some potential.? I have the opposite problem, cold, at least we can dress for cold. Hank From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:28:43 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner I know basically nothing about HVAC. I am assuming taking a compressor outside of a car and running it on a 36 volt motor and running the tubing on the outside of the sub to disperse heat would consume to much power right? Anyone know how many amps at 36 volt, 24 volt, and 12 volt would be required to do something like this? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Sun Oct 6 21:26:57 2013 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 21:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Message-ID: Hank, I wouldn't have expected that batteries could handle running an A/C unit for very long, but it would be really nice to not have the noise or exhaust fumes from a generator. Sounds good. Now about running the microwave, too... Jim In a message dated 10/6/2013 8:14:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time, hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca writes: Jim, Batteries can handle it easy. I have a 3,000w inverter and two golf cart batteries for power when we need ac on the job. We can run a skill saw and what ever we need. I like this better than a generator because we just turn it on and leave it all day. It would be fun to experiment with a small ac unit. I just don't have the need, I need heat, but that is easy. You are probably right about not venting the unit. I am sure there is a solution. Hank From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 6:40:10 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Hank, The closest relevant experience I've had was with the A/C units on a motor home. I always had to run the generator if I wasn't plugged into shore power, so either way the A/C was running off 120v; batteries couldn't handle it. On a tender I'm planning on a small A/C configured as a portable unit of the right size to meet the need. Too large a unit (BTUs) can drop the temp without dehumidifying. A flat disk covers the open hatch, and a duct runs from the A/C unit through a hole in the disk. Another hole in the disk allows the warm, wet air to escape. Depending on the circumstances, it may or may not be best to duct the return to the A/C unit so cooled air is recycled through the unit and progressively stepped down in temperature. Dang it was cold when I got back to Missouri! Made me want to turn around and go back to Florida. Cheers, Jim In a message dated 10/6/2013 6:18:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time, hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca writes: Scott, I think it would be simpler to run a house AC unit off an inverter. It takes at least 5hp to drive an AC pump in a vehicle. You can also get 12V coolers that might have some potential. I have the opposite problem, cold, at least we can dress for cold. Hank From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:28:43 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner I know basically nothing about HVAC. I am assuming taking a compressor outside of a car and running it on a 36 volt motor and running the tubing on the outside of the sub to disperse heat would consume to much power right? Anyone know how many amps at 36 volt, 24 volt, and 12 volt would be required to do something like this? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 21:30:32 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 21:30:32 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The air conditioners in the Tritons have heat exchangers in the water. However you wouldn't get much cooling from the water in Florida. You could swim in there all day long, (what a treat.) I know they were heavy on the batteries. Alan Sent from my iPad On 6/10/2013, at 9:13 PM, swaters wrote: > That is something to think about. How does the subs at Triton or Nuytco put in A/C and heat? Just a big motor and alot of battery power? This whole idea may just not be practical for our subs, but I think worth exploring after I saw Alec amd Steve get out of snoopy the other day. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > hank pronk wrote: > Scott, > I think it would be simpler to run a house AC unit off an inverter. It takes at least 5hp to drive an AC pump in a vehicle. You can also get 12V coolers that might have some potential. I have the opposite problem, cold, at least we can dress for cold. > Hank > > From: swaters > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:28:43 PM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner > > I know basically nothing about HVAC. I am assuming taking a compressor outside of a car and running it on a 36 volt motor and running the tubing on the outside of the sub to disperse heat would consume to much power right? Anyone know how many amps at 36 volt, 24 volt, and 12 volt would be required to do something like this? > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 21:44:12 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 21:44:12 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <090BDC6F-F3FA-4B77-9261-5A5AEADC71AC@yahoo.com> Maybe a whole lot of slika pads (not sure if you call them that in the States.) They wouldn't leave water in the bottom of the hull like ice. If you had a container with a cover that could be removed & replaced, you could regulate the temperature a bit. It would be interesting to compare the amount of cooling you would get from a battery compared with a block of ice the same size. Alan Sent from my iPad On 6/10/2013, at 9:30 PM, Alan wrote: > The air conditioners in the Tritons have heat exchangers in the water. However you wouldn't > get much cooling from the water in Florida. You could swim in there all day long, (what a treat.) > I know they were heavy on the batteries. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 6/10/2013, at 9:13 PM, swaters wrote: > >> That is something to think about. How does the subs at Triton or Nuytco put in A/C and heat? Just a big motor and alot of battery power? This whole idea may just not be practical for our subs, but I think worth exploring after I saw Alec amd Steve get out of snoopy the other day. >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> >> hank pronk wrote: >> Scott, >> I think it would be simpler to run a house AC unit off an inverter. It takes at least 5hp to drive an AC pump in a vehicle. You can also get 12V coolers that might have some potential. I have the opposite problem, cold, at least we can dress for cold. >> Hank >> >> From: swaters >> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:28:43 PM >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner >> >> I know basically nothing about HVAC. I am assuming taking a compressor outside of a car and running it on a 36 volt motor and running the tubing on the outside of the sub to disperse heat would consume to much power right? Anyone know how many amps at 36 volt, 24 volt, and 12 volt would be required to do something like this? >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sun Oct 6 21:48:50 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 21:48:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D09116811EF0AD-1B0C-67A49@webmail-m145.sysops.aol.com> The JSLs and other acrylic subs have a primary issue that others do not. The thick acrylic is a terrific insulator. They don't cool down effectively even in deep water, and happily contain every BTU that the crew generates (which is substantial). Steve and Alec had another problem. Think of two guys wedged into a small telephone booth strapped to the back of a camel which is in turn being led across the sahara in a leisurely fashion at or near high noon. Then add the potential of drowning or loss of the camel should they attempt to escape. Far better to consider options that would allow safe boarding at sea. Something inflatable? Perhaps a collar with some sort of splash guard. Hmm. This might require some head scratching. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Oct 6, 2013 6:31 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner The air conditioners in the Tritons have heat exchangers in the water. However you wouldn't get much cooling from the water in Florida. You could swim in there all day long, (what a treat.) I know they were heavy on the batteries. Alan Sent from my iPad On 6/10/2013, at 9:13 PM, swaters wrote: That is something to think about. How does the subs at Triton or Nuytco put in A/C and heat? Just a big motor and alot of battery power? This whole idea may just not be practical for our subs, but I think worth exploring after I saw Alec amd Steve get out of snoopy the other day. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Scott, I think it would be simpler to run a house AC unit off an inverter. It takes at least 5hp to drive an AC pump in a vehicle. You can also get 12V coolers that might have some potential. I have the opposite problem, cold, at least we can dress for cold. Hank From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:28:43 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner I know basically nothing about HVAC. I am assuming taking a compressor outside of a car and running it on a 36 volt motor and running the tubing on the outside of the sub to disperse heat would consume to much power right? Anyone know how many amps at 36 volt, 24 volt, and 12 volt would be required to do something like this? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 22:16:55 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 19:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1381112215.58462.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Alec,

I like the idea of pontoons as a self propelled boat lift, (I-beams are your friend here). This makes the load and the vessel a single unit as opposed to separate masses wrangling along in a seaway.

In fact, I suspect a pontoon lift ala "Lulu" (albeit small scale), is the best possible surface support solution for the little guy.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sun Oct 6 22:20:23 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 22:20:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SM Globule In-Reply-To: <0F5F89EE-5B3F-4579-9C2C-BC0F48199252@yahoo.com> References: <1381087418.92472.YahooMailNeo@web140504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <0F5F89EE-5B3F-4579-9C2C-BC0F48199252@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0911AE94FFA21-1B0C-67DD0@webmail-m145.sysops.aol.com> Globule was the prototype hull for the Moana class subs, built initially to prove the concept and for systems validation. I think it was 54" (whatever that is metrically, 135 cm-ish). The ports are 20" dome segments (50 cm). The Moana subs were built of two intersecting spheres that same size, and were reasonably successful, but never campaigned as hard as Hyco or Perry equipment. Plus, they flooded one and killed somebody during sea trials, which put a damper on the whole operation. Eventually, Comex ordered PC-1203 for their own use and came to the North Sea with it. As far as I know, that was their most successful free-swimming submersible operation. The copied the 03 and built a near clone on order for Intersub during the last days of that company's activities. Monsieur Delauze (aka Mr. Comex) liked the Globule idea as it was relatively light and handy, but updated it for his own private sub with an all acrylic hull (Remora?). He had a bigger budget than most psubbers, and a much bigger wallet. We don't hear much about Comex in the US, but they made extensive use of tethered one-atmosphere bells and built more one-atmosphere boats than Perry, nearly as many as Perry and Hyco combined. They were mostly used internally, so if you didn't work for them, you didn't see many of them. I always thought Globule had potential. She's workmanlike, practical, and provides good viz in pretty much every direction. Maybe a 60" hull though, and smaller battery pods. They had thruster problems (those are AC units, and a pain, especially in those days). Plus you could walk around on that big boxy main ballast tank like a boat dock, which would have solved or at least reduced Alex's problem of staying aboard Snoopy in the bright Florida sun. It makes me wonder what Greg or Emile would charge for a half dozen ports that size. Do we know anyone who can chuck up a 60" hull and machine those flanges? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Oct 6, 2013 5:57 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SM Globule Hi Pete, It was made by Comex , France in 1974, is two man, has an operating depth of 300 meters ( roughly 1000ft ) & now resides in the Cherbourg submarine museum in Northern France, on loan from Comex. Saw it a couple of weeks ago & have a few photos of it. Alan Sent from my iPad On 6/10/2013, at 3:23 PM, Pete Niedermayr wrote: Anybody know anything about this beast? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sun Oct 6 22:22:31 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 22:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <1381112215.58462.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381112215.58462.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0911B35DDB2AA-1B0C-67E0E@webmail-m145.sysops.aol.com> Not Lulu, please. They called her the Seasick Machine!!! -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Oct 6, 2013 7:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Alec, I like the idea of pontoons as a self propelled boat lift, (I-beams are your friend here). This makes the load and the vessel a single unit as opposed to separate masses wrangling along in a seaway. In fact, I suspect a pontoon lift ala "Lulu" (albeit small scale), is the best possible surface support solution for the little guy. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Smyth, Alec ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Sent: Sun, Oct 6, 2013 10:16:08 PM How about a small catamaran tender running A/C and blowing cold air into the sub when in transit? Sub could snugged up against it from beneath, not actually lifter on deck. On Oct 6, 2013, at 5:10 PM, "Joe Perkel" wrote: Alec, Your experience renders what I had in mind for the K-350untenable. That post was very helpful as I am quite familiar with the conditions. On the first problem, I'm inclined now to widen the hull and dispense with the conning tower completely in favor of a low profile hatch. This would be surrounded by a free flooding FRP tower ala Alvin. The question now is what diameter to accommodate two with comfortably and practically with all of the electronic goodies I have in mind. On environmental, this is a conundrum caused by a subtropical environment and lack of appropriate surface support.There's no getting around the fact that if you don't own an RV Atlantis with a dedicated sub hangar and A-Frame, then a radical but practical home grown solution must be found if you want to dive in Florida. One could conceivably plumb theexhaust water circulation of a 3500 BTU marine air unit to an external heat exchanger and scavenge the condensation to an internal water tank trim system. This unit could be powered by a removable portable Honda gas generator riding aft of the tower while on the surface. The idea is toscavenge all of that water and cool the interior prior to diving. The unit could be shut down or run off batteries after removal of the portable gen set depending on conditions. I don't like an internal diesel for such a small enclosed space, what to do with the generated heat is avicious cycle, and a separate machinery hull is asking for trouble ala Pisces III. In any case some measure of surface support for battery charging and HP exchanges is a must. Joe From: "Smyth, Alec" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Sun Oct 6 22:32:22 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 22:32:22 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In-Reply-To: <8D09116811EF0AD-1B0C-67A49@webmail-m145.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D09116811EF0AD-1B0C-67A49@webmail-m145.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <52521D36.2030205@psubs.org> In the recreational, personal, sub-world you generally can't have your cake and eat it too. Put two adults in a small sub like the K250 and you sacrifice comfort for occupancy. Freon based AC units whether auto or household are not practical solutions for the traveling submariner, such as convention diving. There was zero space for such an AC unit on board the Boston Whaler used to tow SNOOPY out into the ocean, and the support boat was being tossed in 2-4 foot seas. It simply is not practical unless you are building a support boat specific for your sub diving and trailering it along with your submarine to the dive location. The best solution for the average psubber is to use a small ice chest (six-pack size) stuffed with ice and then circulate cabin air over that ice. Use a small computer fan to force air over the ice if necessary. The first refrigerators were nothing more than ice-chests, low-tech, easy maintenance, not super efficient but adequate to keep things relatively cool. From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Oct 6 23:08:10 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2013 20:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In-Reply-To: <52521D36.2030205@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1381115290.33045.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Here's a 12VDC unit

http://www.tropicalmarineairconditioning.com/sheets/2425C.pdf

This one is dedicated DC, ..but I think running a similar sized AC unit off an inverter for dual power source options is worth considering. Powering the unit on the surface as I described in an earlier post. I don't propose diving with the unit running, but more so a pre and post mission environmental purge, particularly with the main goal of aggressively dehumidifying the cabin.

No space in these boats as you note, this requires upsizing accordingly, but carefully. I once calculated the volume of a sacrificed conning tower could be substituted for 48" and a shortened length for nearly the same weight, I forget the numbers for the moment.

These compact AC units can be plumbed as I described earlier, the heat exchanger would have to be purposely designed. The outflow water of these units is pretty damn hot, much much hotter than the surrounding water.

I live through Vance's camel torture story for about five minutes every time I climb into my white SUV.

If I'm ever to build and have a practical Florida submersible, I've got to be cognizant of these issues and address then carefully.

Joe



Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 07:25:26 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 07:25:26 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In-Reply-To: <1381115290.33045.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381115290.33045.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That's a great find Joe, It's designed for the environment & gives us an idea of size & amp draw. It would be ok for surface transit but would need a through hull valve where it pumped water in, that you could close before diving. I doubt the heat exchanging unit & pump would take the ambient water pressure at depth. As said, the Triton Heat exchanger is outside in the water & would ( I'm guessing ) just have fresh water at ambient pressure running through it. I like what Phil said they do, with the ice pads. There are all sorts of spaces you could pack them in. Alan Sent from my iPad On 6/10/2013, at 11:08 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > Here's a 12VDC unit > > http://www.tropicalmarineairconditioning.com/sheets/2425C.pdf > > This one is dedicated DC, ..but I think running a similar sized AC unit off an inverter for dual power source options is worth considering. Powering the unit on the surface as I described in an earlier post. I don't propose diving with the unit running, but more so a pre and post mission environmental purge, particularly with the main goal of aggressively dehumidifying the cabin. > > No space in these boats as you note, this requires upsizing accordingly, but carefully. I once calculated the volume of a sacrificed conning tower could be substituted for 48" and a shortened length for nearly the same weight, I forget the numbers for the moment. > > These compact AC units can be plumbed as I described earlier, the heat exchanger would have to be purposely designed. The outflow water of these units is pretty damn hot, much much hotter than the surrounding water. > > I live through Vance's camel torture story for about five minutes every time I climb into my white SUV. > > If I'm ever to build and have a practical Florida submersible, I've got to be cognizant of these issues and address then carefully. > > Joe > > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > From: Jon Wallace ; > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner > Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 2:32:22 AM > > > In the recreational, personal, sub-world you generally can't have your > cake and eat it too. Put two adults in a small sub like the K250 and > you sacrifice comfort for occupancy. Freon based AC units whether auto > or household are not practical solutions for the traveling submariner, > such as convention diving. There was zero space for such an AC unit on > board the Boston Whaler used to tow SNOOPY out into the ocean, and the > support boat was being tossed in 2-4 foot seas. It simply is not > practical unless you are building a support boat specific for your sub > diving and trailering it along with your submarine to the dive location. > > The best solution for the average psubber is to use a small ice chest > (six-pack size) stuffed with ice and then circulate cabin air over that > ice. Use a small computer fan to force air over the ice if necessary. > The first refrigerators were nothing more than ice-chests, low-tech, > easy maintenance, not super efficient but adequate to keep things > relatively cool. > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 07:44:30 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 04:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1381146270.28810.YahooMailIosMobile@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Alan,

The external heat exchanger and associated external plumbing can remain at one ATM. The heat transfer is via conduction, so the system while immersed in seawater remains isolated from ambient pressure. A circulating pump need only overcome system resistance.

Internal ball valves on thru hulls as you noted would maintain a fail safe against a failure outside.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 08:11:22 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 08:11:22 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In-Reply-To: <1381146270.28810.YahooMailIosMobile@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381146270.28810.YahooMailIosMobile@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Joe, Not sure if we are on the same page here. The pump pumps sea water in through the hull, through a heat exchanger & out again. So I guess if the tubing in the unit that carries the seawater & the pump pushing it around are Able to take 175psi ( 250ft plus safety margin ) it would work. Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/10/2013, at 7:44 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > Alan, > > The external heat exchanger and associated external plumbing can remain at one ATM. The heat transfer is via conduction, so the system while immersed in seawater remains isolated from ambient pressure. A circulating pump need only overcome system resistance. > > Internal ball valves on thru hulls as you noted would maintain a fail safe against a failure outside. > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > From: Alan ; > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner > Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 11:25:26 AM > > That's a great find Joe, > It's designed for the environment & gives us an idea of size & amp draw. > It would be ok for surface transit but would need a through hull valve where it pumped water in, > that you could close before diving. I doubt the heat exchanging unit & pump would take > the ambient water pressure at depth. As said, the Triton Heat exchanger is outside in the water > & would ( I'm guessing ) just have fresh water at ambient pressure running through it. > I like what Phil said they do, with the ice pads. There are all sorts of spaces you could pack > them in. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 6/10/2013, at 11:08 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >> >> Here's a 12VDC unit >> >> http://www.tropicalmarineairconditioning.com/sheets/2425C.pdf >> >> This one is dedicated DC, ..but I think running a similar sized AC unit off an inverter for dual power source options is worth considering. Powering the unit on the surface as I described in an earlier post. I don't propose diving with the unit running, but more so a pre and post mission environmental purge, particularly with the main goal of aggressively dehumidifying the cabin. >> >> No space in these boats as you note, this requires upsizing accordingly, but carefully. I once calculated the volume of a sacrificed conning tower could be substituted for 48" and a shortened length for nearly the same weight, I forget the numbers for the moment. >> >> These compact AC units can be plumbed as I described earlier, the heat exchanger would have to be purposely designed. The outflow water of these units is pretty damn hot, much much hotter than the surrounding water. >> >> I live through Vance's camel torture story for about five minutes every time I climb into my white SUV. >> >> If I'm ever to build and have a practical Florida submersible, I've got to be cognizant of these issues and address then carefully. >> >> Joe >> >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> >> From: Jon Wallace ; >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner >> Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 2:32:22 AM >> >> >> In the recreational, personal, sub-world you generally can't have your >> cake and eat it too. Put two adults in a small sub like the K250 and >> you sacrifice comfort for occupancy. Freon based AC units whether auto >> or household are not practical solutions for the traveling submariner, >> such as convention diving. There was zero space for such an AC unit on >> board the Boston Whaler used to tow SNOOPY out into the ocean, and the >> support boat was being tossed in 2-4 foot seas. It simply is not >> practical unless you are building a support boat specific for your sub >> diving and trailering it along with your submarine to the dive location. >> >> The best solution for the average psubber is to use a small ice chest >> (six-pack size) stuffed with ice and then circulate cabin air over that >> ice. Use a small computer fan to force air over the ice if necessary. >> The first refrigerators were nothing more than ice-chests, low-tech, >> easy maintenance, not super efficient but adequate to keep things >> relatively cool. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Oct 7 08:18:21 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 05:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1381148301.74614.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jim, Of coarse, a microwave is a must.? Hank From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 7:26:57 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Hank, I wouldn't have expected that batteries could handle running an A/C unit for very long, but it would be really nice to not have the noise or exhaust fumes from a generator.? Sounds good.? Now about running the microwave, too... Jim? In a message dated 10/6/2013 8:14:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time, hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca writes: Jim, >Batteries can handle it easy.? I have a 3,000w inverter and two golf cart batteries for power when we need ac on the job.? We can run a skill saw and what ever we need.? I like this better than a generator because we just turn it on and leave it all day.? It would be fun to experiment with a small ac unit.? I just don't have the need, I need heat, but that is easy.? You are probably right about not venting the unit.? I am sure there is a solution. >Hank > > >From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 6:40:10 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner > > > >Hank, >? >The closest relevant?experience I've had was with the A/C units on a motor home.? I always had to run the generator if I wasn't plugged into shore power, so either way the A/C was running off 120v; batteries couldn't handle it.? On a tender I'm planning on?a small A/C?configured as a portable unit of the right size to meet the need.? Too large a unit (BTUs) can drop the temp without dehumidifying.? >? >A flat disk?covers the open hatch, and a duct runs from the A/C unit through a hole in the disk.? Another hole in the disk allows the warm, wet air to escape.? Depending on the circumstances, it may or may not be best to duct the return to the A/C unit so cooled air is recycled through the unit and progressively stepped down in temperature. >? >Dang it was cold when?I got back to Missouri!? Made me want to turn around and go back to Florida. >? >Cheers, >Jim > >In a message dated 10/6/2013 6:18:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time, hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca writes: >Scott, >>I think it would be simpler to run a house AC unit off an inverter.? It takes at least 5hp to drive an AC pump in a vehicle.? You can also get 12V coolers that might have some potential.? I have the opposite problem, cold, at least we can dress for cold. >>Hank >> >> >>From: swaters >>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 4:28:43 PM >>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner >> >> >> >>I know basically nothing about HVAC. I am assuming taking a compressor outside of a car and running it on a 36 volt motor and running the tubing on the outside of the sub to disperse heat would consume to much power right? Anyone know how many amps at 36 volt, 24 volt, and 12 volt would be required to do something like this? >>Thanks, >>Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Mon Oct 7 08:21:54 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 08:21:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In-Reply-To: References: <1381146270.28810.YahooMailIosMobile@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0916EF13B068C-1454-6B347@webmail-d300.sysops.aol.com> Alan, Are you sure they use straight seawater? I ask, because the JSLs, where some of the guys at Triton cut their teeth, used a closed system. Radiator and fans in the forward sphere, pump and compressor outside, and one of the aluminum structural pipes behind the sphere as the condenser. I don't remember what was used for coolant, but it worked pretty well to maintain temperature and to reduce humidity. I think it was Freon based, so you wouldn't want it leaking, for sure. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 5:12 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Hi Joe, Not sure if we are on the same page here. The pump pumps sea water in through the hull, through a heat exchanger & out again. So I guess if the tubing in the unit that carries the seawater & the pump pushing it around are Able to take 175psi ( 250ft plus safety margin ) it would work. Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/10/2013, at 7:44 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Alan, The external heat exchanger and associated external plumbing can remain at one ATM. The heat transfer is via conduction, so the system while immersed in seawater remains isolated from ambient pressure. A circulating pump need only overcome system resistance. Internal ball valves on thru hulls as you noted would maintain a fail safe against a failure outside. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 11:25:26 AM That's a great find Joe, It's designed for the environment & gives us an idea of size & amp draw. It would be ok for surface transit but would need a through hull valve where it pumped water in, that you could close before diving. I doubt the heat exchanging unit & pump would take the ambient water pressure at depth. As said, the Triton Heat exchanger is outside in the water & would ( I'm guessing ) just have fresh water at ambient pressure running through it. I like what Phil said they do, with the ice pads. There are all sorts of spaces you could pack them in. Alan Sent from my iPad On 6/10/2013, at 11:08 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: Here's a 12VDC unit http://www.tropicalmarineairconditioning.com/sheets/2425C.pdf This one is dedicated DC, ..but I think running a similar sized AC unit off an inverter for dual power source options is worth considering. Powering the unit on the surface as I described in an earlier post. I don't propose diving with the unit running, but more so a pre and post mission environmental purge, particularly with the main goal of aggressively dehumidifying the cabin. No space in these boats as you note, this requires upsizing accordingly, but carefully. I once calculated the volume of a sacrificed conning tower could be substituted for 48" and a shortened length for nearly the same weight, I forget the numbers for the moment. These compact AC units can be plumbed as I described earlier, the heat exchanger would have to be purposely designed. The outflow water of these units is pretty damn hot, much much hotter than the surrounding water. I live through Vance's camel torture story for about five minutes every time I climb into my white SUV. If I'm ever to build and have a practical Florida submersible, I've got to be cognizant of these issues and address then carefully. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Jon Wallace ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 2:32:22 AM In the recreational, personal, sub-world you generally can't have your cake and eat it too. Put two adults in a small sub like the K250 and you sacrifice comfort for occupancy. Freon based AC units whether auto or household are not practical solutions for the traveling submariner, such as convention diving. There was zero space for such an AC unit on board the Boston Whaler used to tow SNOOPY out into the ocean, and the support boat was being tossed in 2-4 foot seas. It simply is not practical unless you are building a support boat specific for your sub diving and trailering it along with your submarine to the dive location. The best solution for the average psubber is to use a small ice chest (six-pack size) stuffed with ice and then circulate cabin air over that ice. Use a small computer fan to force air over the ice if necessary. The first refrigerators were nothing more than ice-chests, low-tech, easy maintenance, not super efficient but adequate to keep things relatively cool. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Oct 7 08:27:27 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 05:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In-Reply-To: References: <1381115290.33045.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381148847.71734.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I suppose insulating the hull causes all sorts of other problems.? I used to lower my red sub into the water off the barge and let it cool the interior of the sub cool down.? If I did not cool it down, I had condensation problems.? Cooling the sub to close the temperature gap?helped a lot. Hank From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 5:25:26 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner That's a great find Joe, It's designed for the environment & gives us an idea of size & amp draw. It would be ok for surface transit but would need a through hull valve where it pumped water in, that you could close before diving. I doubt the heat exchanging unit & pump would take the ambient water pressure at depth. As said, the Triton Heat exchanger is outside in the water & would ( I'm guessing ) just have fresh water at ambient pressure running through it. ? ?I like what Phil said they do, with the ice pads. There are all sorts of spaces you could pack them in. Alan Sent from my iPad On 6/10/2013, at 11:08 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: Here's a 12VDC unit > >http://www.tropicalmarineairconditioning.com/sheets/2425C.pdf > >This one is dedicated DC, ..but I think running a similar sized AC unit off an inverter for dual power source options is worth considering. Powering the unit on the surface as I described in an earlier post. I don't propose diving with the unit running, but more so a pre and post mission environmental purge, particularly with the main goal of aggressively dehumidifying the cabin. > >No space in these boats as you note, this requires upsizing accordingly, but carefully. I once calculated the volume of a sacrificed conning tower could be substituted for 48" and a shortened length for nearly the same weight, I forget the numbers for the moment. > >These compact AC units can be plumbed as I described earlier, the heat exchanger would have to be purposely designed. The outflow water of these units is pretty damn hot, much much hotter than the surrounding water. > >I live through Vance's camel torture story for about five minutes every time I climb into my white SUV. > >If I'm ever to build and have a practical Florida submersible, I've got to be cognizant of these issues and address then carefully. > >Joe > > > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >From: Jon Wallace ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 2:32:22 AM > >In the recreational, personal, sub-world you generally can't have your >cake and eat it too.? Put two adults in a small sub like the K250 and >you sacrifice comfort for occupancy.? Freon based AC units whether auto >or household are not practical solutions for the traveling submariner, >such as convention diving.? There was zero space for such an AC unit on >board the Boston Whaler used to tow SNOOPY out into the ocean, and the >support boat was being tossed in 2-4 foot seas.? It simply is not >practical unless you are building a support boat specific for your sub >diving and trailering it along with your submarine to the dive location. > >The best solution for the average psubber is to use a small ice chest >(six-pack size) stuffed with ice and then circulate cabin air over that >ice.? Use a small computer fan to force air over the ice if necessary.? >The first refrigerators were nothing more than ice-chests, low-tech, >easy maintenance, not super efficient but adequate to keep things >relatively cool. > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 08:30:03 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 08:30:03 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In-Reply-To: <8D0916EF13B068C-1454-6B347@webmail-d300.sysops.aol.com> References: <1381146270.28810.YahooMailIosMobile@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0916EF13B068C-1454-6B347@webmail-d300.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <29B78BF1-7D2C-419E-9A78-93BF4CE730D5@yahoo.com> Hi Vance, From what little I was told, I was under the impression it was a closed system. The system Joe posted the link to is an open system where they suck seawater in & Run it through the inner tube of the condenser coil & send it out again. Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/10/2013, at 8:21 AM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: > Alan, > Are you sure they use straight seawater? I ask, because the JSLs, where some of the guys at Triton cut their teeth, used a closed system. Radiator and fans in the forward sphere, pump and compressor outside, and one of the aluminum structural pipes behind the sphere as the condenser. I don't remember what was used for coolant, but it worked pretty well to maintain temperature and to reduce humidity. I think it was Freon based, so you wouldn't want it leaking, for sure. > Vance > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 5:12 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner > > Hi Joe, > Not sure if we are on the same page here. > The pump pumps sea water in through the hull, through a heat exchanger & out again. > So I guess if the tubing in the unit that carries the seawater & the pump pushing it around are > Able to take 175psi ( 250ft plus safety margin ) it would work. > Alan > Sent from my iPad > > On 7/10/2013, at 7:44 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >> >> Alan, >> >> The external heat exchanger and associated external plumbing can remain at one ATM. The heat transfer is via conduction, so the system while immersed in seawater remains isolated from ambient pressure. A circulating pump need only overcome system resistance. >> >> Internal ball valves on thru hulls as you noted would maintain a fail safe against a failure outside. >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> >> From: Alan ; >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner >> Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 11:25:26 AM >> >> That's a great find Joe, >> It's designed for the environment & gives us an idea of size & amp draw. >> It would be ok for surface transit but would need a through hull valve where it pumped water in, >> that you could close before diving. I doubt the heat exchanging unit & pump would take >> the ambient water pressure at depth. As said, the Triton Heat exchanger is outside in the water >> & would ( I'm guessing ) just have fresh water at ambient pressure running through it. >> I like what Phil said they do, with the ice pads. There are all sorts of spaces you could pack >> them in. >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 6/10/2013, at 11:08 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> >>> >>> Here's a 12VDC unit >>> >>> http://www.tropicalmarineairconditioning.com/sheets/2425C.pdf >>> >>> This one is dedicated DC, ..but I think running a similar sized AC unit off an inverter for dual power source options is worth considering. Powering the unit on the surface as I described in an earlier post. I don't propose diving with the unit running, but more so a pre and post mission environmental purge, particularly with the main goal of aggressively dehumidifying the cabin. >>> >>> No space in these boats as you note, this requires upsizing accordingly, but carefully. I once calculated the volume of a sacrificed conning tower could be substituted for 48" and a shortened length for nearly the same weight, I forget the numbers for the moment. >>> >>> These compact AC units can be plumbed as I described earlier, the heat exchanger would have to be purposely designed. The outflow water of these units is pretty damn hot, much much hotter than the surrounding water. >>> >>> I live through Vance's camel torture story for about five minutes every time I climb into my white SUV. >>> >>> If I'm ever to build and have a practical Florida submersible, I've got to be cognizant of these issues and address then carefully. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>> >>> From: Jon Wallace ; >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner >>> Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 2:32:22 AM >>> >>> >>> In the recreational, personal, sub-world you generally can't have your >>> cake and eat it too. Put two adults in a small sub like the K250 and >>> you sacrifice comfort for occupancy. Freon based AC units whether auto >>> or household are not practical solutions for the traveling submariner, >>> such as convention diving. There was zero space for such an AC unit on >>> board the Boston Whaler used to tow SNOOPY out into the ocean, and the >>> support boat was being tossed in 2-4 foot seas. It simply is not >>> practical unless you are building a support boat specific for your sub >>> diving and trailering it along with your submarine to the dive location. >>> >>> The best solution for the average psubber is to use a small ice chest >>> (six-pack size) stuffed with ice and then circulate cabin air over that >>> ice. Use a small computer fan to force air over the ice if necessary. >>> The first refrigerators were nothing more than ice-chests, low-tech, >>> easy maintenance, not super efficient but adequate to keep things >>> relatively cool. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 08:55:07 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 05:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In-Reply-To: <29B78BF1-7D2C-419E-9A78-93BF4CE730D5@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381150507.42151.YahooMailIosMobile@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Alan

Lost in translation is my having closed that very system in favor of a fresh water & ethylene glycol coolant through an appropriately surfaced exchanger outside.

Joe


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 09:02:28 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 09:02:28 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In-Reply-To: <1381150507.42151.YahooMailIosMobile@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381150507.42151.YahooMailIosMobile@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <438DC9F1-DB07-49AF-8B12-FF117AED4D38@yahoo.com> OK got you. As I said earlier, this unit answers a lot of questions regarding size, cooling capacity & amp draw for the environment we are talking about. And this subject comes up regularly after trips to Florida. Thanks. Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/10/2013, at 8:55 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > Alan > > Lost in translation is my having closed that very system in favor of a fresh water & ethylene glycol coolant through an appropriately surfaced exchanger outside. > > Joe > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > From: Alan ; > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner > Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 12:30:03 PM > > Hi Vance, > From what little I was told, I was under the impression it was a closed system. > The system Joe posted the link to is an open system where they suck seawater in & > Run it through the inner tube of the condenser coil & send it out again. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 7/10/2013, at 8:21 AM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: > >> Alan, >> Are you sure they use straight seawater? I ask, because the JSLs, where some of the guys at Triton cut their teeth, used a closed system. Radiator and fans in the forward sphere, pump and compressor outside, and one of the aluminum structural pipes behind the sphere as the condenser. I don't remember what was used for coolant, but it worked pretty well to maintain temperature and to reduce humidity. I think it was Freon based, so you wouldn't want it leaking, for sure. >> Vance >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alan >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 5:12 am >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner >> >> Hi Joe, >> Not sure if we are on the same page here. >> The pump pumps sea water in through the hull, through a heat exchanger & out again. >> So I guess if the tubing in the unit that carries the seawater & the pump pushing it around are >> Able to take 175psi ( 250ft plus safety margin ) it would work. >> Alan >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 7/10/2013, at 7:44 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> >>> >>> Alan, >>> >>> The external heat exchanger and associated external plumbing can remain at one ATM. The heat transfer is via conduction, so the system while immersed in seawater remains isolated from ambient pressure. A circulating pump need only overcome system resistance. >>> >>> Internal ball valves on thru hulls as you noted would maintain a fail safe against a failure outside. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>> >>> From: Alan ; >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner >>> Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 11:25:26 AM >>> >>> That's a great find Joe, >>> It's designed for the environment & gives us an idea of size & amp draw. >>> It would be ok for surface transit but would need a through hull valve where it pumped water in, >>> that you could close before diving. I doubt the heat exchanging unit & pump would take >>> the ambient water pressure at depth. As said, the Triton Heat exchanger is outside in the water >>> & would ( I'm guessing ) just have fresh water at ambient pressure running through it. >>> I like what Phil said they do, with the ice pads. There are all sorts of spaces you could pack >>> them in. >>> Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 6/10/2013, at 11:08 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Here's a 12VDC unit >>>> >>>> http://www.tropicalmarineairconditioning.com/sheets/2425C.pdf >>>> >>>> This one is dedicated DC, ..but I think running a similar sized AC unit off an inverter for dual power source options is worth considering. Powering the unit on the surface as I described in an earlier post. I don't propose diving with the unit running, but more so a pre and post mission environmental purge, particularly with the main goal of aggressively dehumidifying the cabin. >>>> >>>> No space in these boats as you note, this requires upsizing accordingly, but carefully. I once calculated the volume of a sacrificed conning tower could be substituted for 48" and a shortened length for nearly the same weight, I forget the numbers for the moment. >>>> >>>> These compact AC units can be plumbed as I described earlier, the heat exchanger would have to be purposely designed. The outflow water of these units is pretty damn hot, much much hotter than the surrounding water. >>>> >>>> I live through Vance's camel torture story for about five minutes every time I climb into my white SUV. >>>> >>>> If I'm ever to build and have a practical Florida submersible, I've got to be cognizant of these issues and address then carefully. >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>>> >>>> From: Jon Wallace ; >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner >>>> Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 2:32:22 AM >>>> >>>> >>>> In the recreational, personal, sub-world you generally can't have your >>>> cake and eat it too. Put two adults in a small sub like the K250 and >>>> you sacrifice comfort for occupancy. Freon based AC units whether auto >>>> or household are not practical solutions for the traveling submariner, >>>> such as convention diving. There was zero space for such an AC unit on >>>> board the Boston Whaler used to tow SNOOPY out into the ocean, and the >>>> support boat was being tossed in 2-4 foot seas. It simply is not >>>> practical unless you are building a support boat specific for your sub >>>> diving and trailering it along with your submarine to the dive location. >>>> >>>> The best solution for the average psubber is to use a small ice chest >>>> (six-pack size) stuffed with ice and then circulate cabin air over that >>>> ice. Use a small computer fan to force air over the ice if necessary. >>>> The first refrigerators were nothing more than ice-chests, low-tech, >>>> easy maintenance, not super efficient but adequate to keep things >>>> relatively cool. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 09:15:57 2013 From: jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com (greg cottrell) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 06:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In-Reply-To: <8D0916EF13B068C-1454-6B347@webmail-d300.sysops.aol.com> References: <1381146270.28810.YahooMailIosMobile@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0916EF13B068C-1454-6B347@webmail-d300.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1381151757.2858.YahooMailNeo@web121906.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Low tech sub air conditioning- ? Water ice can be cooled down to - 100 F by placing a block of it in a cooler full of dry ice the night before. Then the water ice can be taken aboard the sub in a small cooler with a fan to circulate the cold air. Just remember to only take the water ice aboard (NOT the dry ice!) Greg ? ? ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 8:21 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Alan, Are you sure they use straight seawater? I ask, because the JSLs, where some of the guys at Triton cut their teeth, used a closed system. Radiator and fans?in the forward sphere, pump and compressor outside, and one of the aluminum structural pipes behind the sphere as the condenser. I don't remember what was used for coolant, but it worked pretty well to maintain temperature and to reduce humidity. I think it was Freon based, so you wouldn't want it leaking, for sure. Vance -----Original Message-----From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 5:12 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Hi Joe, Not sure if we are on the same page here. The pump pumps sea water in through the hull, through a heat exchanger & out again. So I guess if the tubing in the unit that carries the seawater & the pump pushing it around are Able to take 175psi ( 250ft plus safety margin ) it would work. Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/10/2013, at 7:44 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Alan, > >The external heat exchanger and associated external plumbing can remain at one ATM. The heat transfer is via conduction, so the system while immersed in seawater remains isolated from ambient pressure. A circulating pump need only overcome system resistance. > >Internal ball valves on thru hulls as you noted would maintain a fail safe against a failure outside. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > >________________________________ >From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 11:25:26 AM >That's a great find Joe, >It's designed for the environment & gives us an idea of size & amp draw. >It would be ok for surface transit but would need a through hull valve where it pumped water in, >that you could close before diving. I doubt the heat exchanging unit & pump would take >the ambient water pressure at depth. As said, the Triton Heat exchanger is outside in the water >& would ( I'm guessing ) just have fresh water at ambient pressure running through it. >? ?I like what Phil said they do, with the ice pads. There are all sorts of spaces you could pack >them in. >Alan >Sent from my iPad >On 6/10/2013, at 11:08 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >Here's a 12VDC unit >> >>http://www.tropicalmarineairconditioning.com/sheets/2425C.pdf >> >>This one is dedicated DC, ..but I think running a similar sized AC unit off an inverter for dual power source options is worth considering. Powering the unit on the surface as I described in an earlier post. I don't propose diving with the unit running, but more so a pre and post mission environmental purge, particularly with the main goal of aggressively dehumidifying the cabin. >> >>No space in these boats as you note, this requires upsizing accordingly, but carefully. I once calculated the volume of a sacrificed conning tower could be substituted for 48" and a shortened length for nearly the same weight, I forget the numbers for the moment. >> >>These compact AC units can be plumbed as I described earlier, the heat exchanger would have to be purposely designed. The outflow water of these units is pretty damn hot, much much hotter than the surrounding water. >> >>I live through Vance's camel torture story for about five minutes every time I climb into my white SUV. >> >>If I'm ever to build and have a practical Florida submersible, I've got to be cognizant of these issues and address then carefully. >> >>Joe >> >> >> >>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> >>________________________________ >>From: Jon Wallace ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 2:32:22 AM >> >>In the recreational, personal, sub-world you generally can't have your >>cake and eat it too.? Put two adults in a small sub like the K250 and >>you sacrifice comfort for occupancy.? Freon based AC units whether auto >>or household are not practical solutions for the traveling submariner, >>such as convention diving.? There was zero space for such an AC unit on >>board the Boston Whaler used to tow SNOOPY out into the ocean, and the >>support boat was being tossed in 2-4 foot seas.? It simply is not >>practical unless you are building a support boat specific for your sub >>diving and trailering it along with your submarine to the dive location. >> >>The best solution for the average psubber is to use a small ice chest >>(six-pack size) stuffed with ice and then circulate cabin air over that >>ice.? Use a small computer fan to force air over the ice if necessary.? >>The first refrigerators were nothing more than ice-chests, low-tech, >>easy maintenance, not super efficient but adequate to keep things >>relatively cool. >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 09:35:11 2013 From: jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com (greg cottrell) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 06:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull diameter In-Reply-To: <1381081192.78259.YahooMailNeo@web140904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381067000.33539.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381070199.26505.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381081192.78259.YahooMailNeo@web140904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381152911.60182.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> The hull diameter on Proteus is a comfy 51" and it certainly has its benefits. I've had three people aboard the sub for more than an hour and it was very comfortable. ? But there are also downsides.?First, It does not tow very well at all. Some days?were spent? towing it to get to the dive site for hours and it can use up the whole day towing instead of diving. The other problem is the amount of drought- on more than one occasion I trailered the sub to a new location just to find that the ramp wasn't deep enough to float the sub off and had to pack up and go home. Not a fun day! ? If you go for a large diameter, pay more attention to streamlining and some method of getting it on and off the trailer in shallow water. ? Greg ? ? ? ________________________________ From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Larger diameter for sure. ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 10:36 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef ....and given a choice between lengthening or widening for increased interior volume, (keeping in mind tow-ability and trailer-ability) ? What is the general consensus? ? Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 09:49:10 2013 From: jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com (greg cottrell) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 06:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull diameter In-Reply-To: <1381152911.60182.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1381067000.33539.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381070199.26505.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381081192.78259.YahooMailNeo@web140904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381152911.60182.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381153750.66675.YahooMailNeo@web121905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Oops- meant to say "amount of draught" or "draft". Never dived in a drought before! ? Greg ________________________________ From: greg cottrell To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 9:35 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull diameter The hull diameter on Proteus is a comfy 51" and it certainly has its benefits. I've had three people aboard the sub for more than an hour and it was very comfortable. ? But there are also downsides.?First, It does not tow very well at all. Some days?were spent? towing it to get to the dive site for hours and it can use up the whole day towing instead of diving. The other problem is the amount of drought- on more than one occasion I trailered the sub to a new location just to find that the ramp wasn't deep enough to float the sub off and had to pack up and go home. Not a fun day! ? If you go for a large diameter, pay more attention to streamlining and some method of getting it on and off the trailer in shallow water. ? Greg ? ? ? ________________________________ From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Larger diameter for sure. ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 10:36 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef ....and given a choice between lengthening or widening for increased interior volume, (keeping in mind tow-ability and trailer-ability) ? What is the general consensus? ? Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 10:21:15 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 10:21:15 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In-Reply-To: <1381150507.42151.YahooMailIosMobile@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381150507.42151.YahooMailIosMobile@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <094B5050-4000-42D6-8829-4289C5DBCF7B@yahoo.com> In N.Z. & Australia, we have a very efficient cooling system used by boaties, based on convection. Convection where the body is heated or cooled directly rather than trying to control the surrounding atmosphere, is the most energy efficient system. Basically you consume large amounts of super cold liquid which has alcohol in it for the purpose of lower the liquids freezing point. Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/10/2013, at 8:55 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > Alan > > Lost in translation is my having closed that very system in favor of a fresh water & ethylene glycol coolant through an appropriately surfaced exchanger outside. > > Joe > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > From: Alan ; > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner > Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 12:30:03 PM > > Hi Vance, > From what little I was told, I was under the impression it was a closed system. > The system Joe posted the link to is an open system where they suck seawater in & > Run it through the inner tube of the condenser coil & send it out again. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 7/10/2013, at 8:21 AM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: > >> Alan, >> Are you sure they use straight seawater? I ask, because the JSLs, where some of the guys at Triton cut their teeth, used a closed system. Radiator and fans in the forward sphere, pump and compressor outside, and one of the aluminum structural pipes behind the sphere as the condenser. I don't remember what was used for coolant, but it worked pretty well to maintain temperature and to reduce humidity. I think it was Freon based, so you wouldn't want it leaking, for sure. >> Vance >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alan >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 5:12 am >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner >> >> Hi Joe, >> Not sure if we are on the same page here. >> The pump pumps sea water in through the hull, through a heat exchanger & out again. >> So I guess if the tubing in the unit that carries the seawater & the pump pushing it around are >> Able to take 175psi ( 250ft plus safety margin ) it would work. >> Alan >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 7/10/2013, at 7:44 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> >>> >>> Alan, >>> >>> The external heat exchanger and associated external plumbing can remain at one ATM. The heat transfer is via conduction, so the system while immersed in seawater remains isolated from ambient pressure. A circulating pump need only overcome system resistance. >>> >>> Internal ball valves on thru hulls as you noted would maintain a fail safe against a failure outside. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>> >>> From: Alan ; >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner >>> Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 11:25:26 AM >>> >>> That's a great find Joe, >>> It's designed for the environment & gives us an idea of size & amp draw. >>> It would be ok for surface transit but would need a through hull valve where it pumped water in, >>> that you could close before diving. I doubt the heat exchanging unit & pump would take >>> the ambient water pressure at depth. As said, the Triton Heat exchanger is outside in the water >>> & would ( I'm guessing ) just have fresh water at ambient pressure running through it. >>> I like what Phil said they do, with the ice pads. There are all sorts of spaces you could pack >>> them in. >>> Alan >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 6/10/2013, at 11:08 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Here's a 12VDC unit >>>> >>>> http://www.tropicalmarineairconditioning.com/sheets/2425C.pdf >>>> >>>> This one is dedicated DC, ..but I think running a similar sized AC unit off an inverter for dual power source options is worth considering. Powering the unit on the surface as I described in an earlier post. I don't propose diving with the unit running, but more so a pre and post mission environmental purge, particularly with the main goal of aggressively dehumidifying the cabin. >>>> >>>> No space in these boats as you note, this requires upsizing accordingly, but carefully. I once calculated the volume of a sacrificed conning tower could be substituted for 48" and a shortened length for nearly the same weight, I forget the numbers for the moment. >>>> >>>> These compact AC units can be plumbed as I described earlier, the heat exchanger would have to be purposely designed. The outflow water of these units is pretty damn hot, much much hotter than the surrounding water. >>>> >>>> I live through Vance's camel torture story for about five minutes every time I climb into my white SUV. >>>> >>>> If I'm ever to build and have a practical Florida submersible, I've got to be cognizant of these issues and address then carefully. >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>>> >>>> From: Jon Wallace ; >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner >>>> Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 2:32:22 AM >>>> >>>> >>>> In the recreational, personal, sub-world you generally can't have your >>>> cake and eat it too. Put two adults in a small sub like the K250 and >>>> you sacrifice comfort for occupancy. Freon based AC units whether auto >>>> or household are not practical solutions for the traveling submariner, >>>> such as convention diving. There was zero space for such an AC unit on >>>> board the Boston Whaler used to tow SNOOPY out into the ocean, and the >>>> support boat was being tossed in 2-4 foot seas. It simply is not >>>> practical unless you are building a support boat specific for your sub >>>> diving and trailering it along with your submarine to the dive location. >>>> >>>> The best solution for the average psubber is to use a small ice chest >>>> (six-pack size) stuffed with ice and then circulate cabin air over that >>>> ice. Use a small computer fan to force air over the ice if necessary. >>>> The first refrigerators were nothing more than ice-chests, low-tech, >>>> easy maintenance, not super efficient but adequate to keep things >>>> relatively cool. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 10:54:57 2013 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 07:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In-Reply-To: <1381115290.33045.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <52521D36.2030205@psubs.org> <1381115290.33045.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381157697.79762.YahooMailNeo@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Here's a link to a homemade cooler using a one gallon jug of frozen water. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxSLbpAwibg ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 11:08 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Here's a 12VDC unit http://www.tropicalmarineairconditioning.com/sheets/2425C.pdf This one is dedicated DC, ..but I think running a similar sized AC unit off an inverter for dual power source options is worth considering. Powering the unit on the surface as I described in an earlier post. I don't propose diving with the unit running, but more so a pre and post mission environmental purge, particularly with the main goal of aggressively dehumidifying the cabin. No space in these boats as you note, this requires upsizing accordingly, but carefully. I once calculated the volume of a sacrificed conning tower could be substituted for 48" and a shortened length for nearly the same weight, I forget the numbers for the moment. These compact AC units can be plumbed as I described earlier, the heat exchanger would have to be purposely designed. The outflow water of these units is pretty damn hot, much much hotter than the surrounding water. I live through Vance's camel torture story for about five minutes every time I climb into my white SUV. If I'm ever to build and have a practical Florida submersible, I've got to be cognizant of these issues and address then carefully. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Jon Wallace ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 2:32:22 AM In the recreational, personal, sub-world you generally can't have your cake and eat it too.? Put two adults in a small sub like the K250 and you sacrifice comfort for occupancy.? Freon based AC units whether auto or household are not practical solutions for the traveling submariner, such as convention diving.? There was zero space for such an AC unit on board the Boston Whaler used to tow SNOOPY out into the ocean, and the support boat was being tossed in 2-4 foot seas.? It simply is not practical unless you are building a support boat specific for your sub diving and trailering it along with your submarine to the dive location. The best solution for the average psubber is to use a small ice chest (six-pack size) stuffed with ice and then circulate cabin air over that ice.? Use a small computer fan to force air over the ice if necessary.? The first refrigerators were nothing more than ice-chests, low-tech, easy maintenance, not super efficient but adequate to keep things relatively cool. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 10:59:36 2013 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 07:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In-Reply-To: <094B5050-4000-42D6-8829-4289C5DBCF7B@yahoo.com> References: <1381150507.42151.YahooMailIosMobile@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <094B5050-4000-42D6-8829-4289C5DBCF7B@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381157976.19349.YahooMailNeo@web140904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> The question is, can you navigate properly after using that system of cooling? ________________________________ From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In N.Z. & Australia, we have a very efficient cooling system used by boaties, based on convection.?Convection where the body is heated or cooled directly rather than trying to control the surrounding atmosphere, is the most energy efficient system. Basically you consume large amounts of super cold liquid which has alcohol in it for the purpose of lower the liquids freezing point. Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/10/2013, at 8:55 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Alan > >Lost in translation is my having closed that very system in favor of a fresh water & ethylene glycol coolant through an appropriately surfaced exchanger outside. > >Joe > > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > >________________________________ > From: Alan ; >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner >Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 12:30:03 PM > > >Hi Vance, >From what little I was told, I was under the impression it was a closed system. >The system Joe posted the link to is an open system where they suck seawater in & >Run it through the inner tube of the condenser coil & send it out again. >Alan > >Sent from my iPad > >On 7/10/2013, at 8:21 AM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: > > >Alan, >>Are you sure they use straight seawater? I ask, because the JSLs, where some of the guys at Triton cut their teeth, used a closed system. Radiator and fans?in the forward sphere, pump and compressor outside, and one of the aluminum structural pipes behind the sphere as the condenser. I don't remember what was used for coolant, but it worked pretty well to maintain temperature and to reduce humidity. I think it was Freon based, so you wouldn't want it leaking, for sure. >>Vance >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Alan >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 5:12 am >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner >> >> >>Hi Joe, >>Not sure if we are on the same page here. >>The pump pumps sea water in through the hull, through a heat exchanger & out again. >>So I guess if the tubing in the unit that carries the seawater & the pump pushing it around are >>Able to take 175psi ( 250ft plus safety margin ) it would work. >>Alan >>Sent from my iPad >> >>On 7/10/2013, at 7:44 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> >> >>Alan, >>> >>>The external heat exchanger and associated external plumbing can remain at one ATM. The heat transfer is via conduction, so the system while immersed in seawater remains isolated from ambient pressure. A circulating pump need only overcome system resistance. >>> >>>Internal ball valves on thru hulls as you noted would maintain a fail safe against a failure outside. >>> >>>Joe >>> >>>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>> >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>> From: Alan ; >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner >>>Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 11:25:26 AM >>> >>> >>>That's a great find Joe, >>>It's designed for the environment & gives us an idea of size & amp draw. >>>It would be ok for surface transit but would need a through hull valve where it pumped water in, >>>that you could close before diving. I doubt the heat exchanging unit & pump would take >>>the ambient water pressure at depth. As said, the Triton Heat exchanger is outside in the water >>>& would ( I'm guessing ) just have fresh water at ambient pressure running through it. >>>? ?I like what Phil said they do, with the ice pads. There are all sorts of spaces you could pack >>>them in. >>>Alan >>> >>>Sent from my iPad >>> >>>On 6/10/2013, at 11:08 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >>> >>> >>>Here's a 12VDC unit >>>> >>>>http://www.tropicalmarineairconditioning.com/sheets/2425C.pdf >>>> >>>>This one is dedicated DC, ..but I think running a similar sized AC unit off an inverter for dual power source options is worth considering. Powering the unit on the surface as I described in an earlier post. I don't propose diving with the unit running, but more so a pre and post mission environmental purge, particularly with the main goal of aggressively dehumidifying the cabin. >>>> >>>>No space in these boats as you note, this requires upsizing accordingly, but carefully. I once calculated the volume of a sacrificed conning tower could be substituted for 48" and a shortened length for nearly the same weight, I forget the numbers for the moment. >>>> >>>>These compact AC units can be plumbed as I described earlier, the heat exchanger would have to be purposely designed. The outflow water of these units is pretty damn hot, much much hotter than the surrounding water. >>>> >>>>I live through Vance's camel torture story for about five minutes every time I climb into my white SUV. >>>> >>>>If I'm ever to build and have a practical Florida submersible, I've got to be cognizant of these issues and address then carefully. >>>> >>>>Joe >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>________________________________ >>>> From: Jon Wallace ; >>>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner >>>>Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 2:32:22 AM >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>In the recreational, personal, sub-world you generally can't have your >>>>cake and eat it too.? Put two adults in a small sub like the K250 and >>>>you sacrifice comfort for occupancy.? Freon based AC units whether auto >>>>or household are not practical solutions for the traveling submariner, >>>>such as convention diving.? There was zero space for such an AC unit on >>>>board the Boston Whaler used to tow SNOOPY out into the ocean, and the >>>>support boat was being tossed in 2-4 foot seas.? It simply is not >>>>practical unless you are building a support boat specific for your sub >>>>diving and trailering it along with your submarine to the dive location. >>>> >>>>The best solution for the average psubber is to use a small ice chest >>>>(six-pack size) stuffed with ice and then circulate cabin air over that >>>>ice.? Use a small computer fan to force air over the ice if necessary.? >>>>The first refrigerators were nothing more than ice-chests, low-tech, >>>>easy maintenance, not super efficient but adequate to keep things >>>>relatively cool. >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psub101 at indy.rr.com Mon Oct 7 11:16:53 2013 From: psub101 at indy.rr.com (Steve McQueen) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 11:16:53 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2013 Convention Review Message-ID: <001201cec370$40f93370$c2eb9a50$@indy.rr.com> All, just a note that the convention this year was a good experience for me and worth the expense/travel. We missed all of those who could not attend. I encourage everyone to try and attend future conferences as getting dive time, being around/observing dive prep/operations and meeting new members (networking) is really priceless even if your project is still on paper. Thanks to all who made my experience so rewarding. Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Mon Oct 7 11:26:23 2013 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 11:26:23 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psychedelic Sub video Message-ID: I have called this new video "Psychedelic Sub", maybe because it shows what happens when you do the editing in the middle of the night on a long train trip. I've always dreamed of diving my little sub in clear tropical water, so I attempted to edit for a dream-like ambiance. Enjoy, and crank up the volume. I hope it transports you to another place. https://vimeo.com/76340636 Best, Alec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Mon Oct 7 11:30:34 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 11:30:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In-Reply-To: <1381157976.19349.YahooMailNeo@web140904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381150507.42151.YahooMailIosMobile@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <094B5050-4000-42D6-8829-4289C5DBCF7B@yahoo.com> <1381157976.19349.YahooMailNeo@web140904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D091894CBF222F-1A5C-6E6BC@webmail-m211.sysops.aol.com> Not well, but you don't care. Vanec -----Original Message----- From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 8:00 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner The question is, can you navigate properly after using that system of cooling? From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In N.Z. & Australia, we have a very efficient cooling system used by boaties, based on convection. Convection where the body is heated or cooled directly rather than trying to control the surrounding atmosphere, is the most energy efficient system. Basically you consume large amounts of super cold liquid which has alcohol in it for the purpose of lower the liquids freezing point. Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/10/2013, at 8:55 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Alan Lost in translation is my having closed that very system in favor of a fresh water & ethylene glycol coolant through an appropriately surfaced exchanger outside. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 12:30:03 PM Hi Vance, >From what little I was told, I was under the impression it was a closed system. The system Joe posted the link to is an open system where they suck seawater in & Run it through the inner tube of the condenser coil & send it out again. Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/10/2013, at 8:21 AM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: Alan, Are you sure they use straight seawater? I ask, because the JSLs, where some of the guys at Triton cut their teeth, used a closed system. Radiator and fans in the forward sphere, pump and compressor outside, and one of the aluminum structural pipes behind the sphere as the condenser. I don't remember what was used for coolant, but it worked pretty well to maintain temperature and to reduce humidity. I think it was Freon based, so you wouldn't want it leaking, for sure. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 5:12 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Hi Joe, Not sure if we are on the same page here. The pump pumps sea water in through the hull, through a heat exchanger & out again. So I guess if the tubing in the unit that carries the seawater & the pump pushing it around are Able to take 175psi ( 250ft plus safety margin ) it would work. Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/10/2013, at 7:44 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Alan, The external heat exchanger and associated external plumbing can remain at one ATM. The heat transfer is via conduction, so the system while immersed in seawater remains isolated from ambient pressure. A circulating pump need only overcome system resistance. Internal ball valves on thru hulls as you noted would maintain a fail safe against a failure outside. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 11:25:26 AM That's a great find Joe, It's designed for the environment & gives us an idea of size & amp draw. It would be ok for surface transit but would need a through hull valve where it pumped water in, that you could close before diving. I doubt the heat exchanging unit & pump would take the ambient water pressure at depth. As said, the Triton Heat exchanger is outside in the water & would ( I'm guessing ) just have fresh water at ambient pressure running through it. I like what Phil said they do, with the ice pads. There are all sorts of spaces you could pack them in. Alan Sent from my iPad On 6/10/2013, at 11:08 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: Here's a 12VDC unit http://www.tropicalmarineairconditioning.com/sheets/2425C.pdf This one is dedicated DC, ..but I think running a similar sized AC unit off an inverter for dual power source options is worth considering. Powering the unit on the surface as I described in an earlier post. I don't propose diving with the unit running, but more so a pre and post mission environmental purge, particularly with the main goal of aggressively dehumidifying the cabin. No space in these boats as you note, this requires upsizing accordingly, but carefully. I once calculated the volume of a sacrificed conning tower could be substituted for 48" and a shortened length for nearly the same weight, I forget the numbers for the moment. These compact AC units can be plumbed as I described earlier, the heat exchanger would have to be purposely designed. The outflow water of these units is pretty damn hot, much much hotter than the surrounding water. I live through Vance's camel torture story for about five minutes every time I climb into my white SUV. If I'm ever to build and have a practical Florida submersible, I've got to be cognizant of these issues and address then carefully. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Jon Wallace ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 2:32:22 AM In the recreational, personal, sub-world you generally can't have your cake and eat it too. Put two adults in a small sub like the K250 and you sacrifice comfort for occupancy. Freon based AC units whether auto or household are not practical solutions for the traveling submariner, such as convention diving. There was zero space for such an AC unit on board the Boston Whaler used to tow SNOOPY out into the ocean, and the support boat was being tossed in 2-4 foot seas. It simply is not practical unless you are building a support boat specific for your sub diving and trailering it along with your submarine to the dive location. The best solution for the average psubber is to use a small ice chest (six-pack size) stuffed with ice and then circulate cabin air over that ice. Use a small computer fan to force air over the ice if necessary. The first refrigerators were nothing more than ice-chests, low-tech, easy maintenance, not super efficient but adequate to keep things relatively cool. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Mon Oct 7 11:36:48 2013 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 11:36:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Message-ID: <17e6.3315b2d6.3f842f10@aol.com> Might require a designated diver. In a message dated 10/7/2013 10:31:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: Not well, but you don't care. Vanec -----Original Message----- From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 8:00 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner The question is, can you navigate properly after using that system of cooling? ____________________________________ From: Alan <_alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com_ (mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) > Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner In N.Z. & Australia, we have a very efficient cooling system used by boaties, based on convection. Convection where the body is heated or cooled directly rather than trying to control the surrounding atmosphere, is the most energy efficient system. Basically you consume large amounts of super cold liquid which has alcohol in it for the purpose of lower the liquids freezing point. Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/10/2013, at 8:55 AM, Joe Perkel <_josephperkel at yahoo.com_ (mailto:josephperkel at yahoo.com) > wrote: Alan Lost in translation is my having closed that very system in favor of a fresh water & ethylene glycol coolant through an appropriately surfaced exchanger outside. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad ____________________________________ From: Alan <_alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com_ (mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com) >; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) >; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 12:30:03 PM Hi Vance, >From what little I was told, I was under the impression it was a closed system. The system Joe posted the link to is an open system where they suck seawater in & Run it through the inner tube of the condenser coil & send it out again. Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/10/2013, at 8:21 AM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: Alan, Are you sure they use straight seawater? I ask, because the JSLs, where some of the guys at Triton cut their teeth, used a closed system. Radiator and fans in the forward sphere, pump and compressor outside, and one of the aluminum structural pipes behind the sphere as the condenser. I don't remember what was used for coolant, but it worked pretty well to maintain temperature and to reduce humidity. I think it was Freon based, so you wouldn't want it leaking, for sure. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 5:12 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Hi Joe, Not sure if we are on the same page here. The pump pumps sea water in through the hull, through a heat exchanger & out again. So I guess if the tubing in the unit that carries the seawater & the pump pushing it around are Able to take 175psi ( 250ft plus safety margin ) it would work. Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/10/2013, at 7:44 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Alan, The external heat exchanger and associated external plumbing can remain at one ATM. The heat transfer is via conduction, so the system while immersed in seawater remains isolated from ambient pressure. A circulating pump need only overcome system resistance. Internal ball valves on thru hulls as you noted would maintain a fail safe against a failure outside. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad ____________________________________ From: Alan ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 11:25:26 AM That's a great find Joe, It's designed for the environment & gives us an idea of size & amp draw. It would be ok for surface transit but would need a through hull valve where it pumped water in, that you could close before diving. I doubt the heat exchanging unit & pump would take the ambient water pressure at depth. As said, the Triton Heat exchanger is outside in the water & would ( I'm guessing ) just have fresh water at ambient pressure running through it. I like what Phil said they do, with the ice pads. There are all sorts of spaces you could pack them in. Alan Sent from my iPad On 6/10/2013, at 11:08 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: Here's a 12VDC unit http://www.tropicalmarineairconditioning.com/sheets/2425C.pdf This one is dedicated DC, ..but I think running a similar sized AC unit off an inverter for dual power source options is worth considering. Powering the unit on the surface as I described in an earlier post. I don't propose diving with the unit running, but more so a pre and post mission environmental purge, particularly with the main goal of aggressively dehumidifying the cabin. No space in these boats as you note, this requires upsizing accordingly, but carefully. I once calculated the volume of a sacrificed conning tower could be substituted for 48" and a shortened length for nearly the same weight, I forget the numbers for the moment. These compact AC units can be plumbed as I described earlier, the heat exchanger would have to be purposely designed. The outflow water of these units is pretty damn hot, much much hotter than the surrounding water. I live through Vance's camel torture story for about five minutes every time I climb into my white SUV. If I'm ever to build and have a practical Florida submersible, I've got to be cognizant of these issues and address then carefully. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad ____________________________________ From: Jon Wallace ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 2:32:22 AM In the recreational, personal, sub-world you generally can't have your cake and eat it too. Put two adults in a small sub like the K250 and you sacrifice comfort for occupancy. Freon based AC units whether auto or household are not practical solutions for the traveling submariner, such as convention diving. There was zero space for such an AC unit on board the Boston Whaler used to tow SNOOPY out into the ocean, and the support boat was being tossed in 2-4 foot seas. It simply is not practical unless you are building a support boat specific for your sub diving and trailering it along with your submarine to the dive location. The best solution for the average psubber is to use a small ice chest (six-pack size) stuffed with ice and then circulate cabin air over that ice. Use a small computer fan to force air over the ice if necessary. The first refrigerators were nothing more than ice-chests, low-tech, easy maintenance, not super efficient but adequate to keep things relatively cool. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 11:54:51 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 11:54:51 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psychedelic Sub video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1CFCA2FE-B742-41D0-A8A7-680536928134@yahoo.com> Wow that was awesome Alec, & all while on he train. I'll give a trip report when I've got some time. Alan Sent from my iPad On 7/10/2013, at 11:26 AM, Alec Smyth wrote: > I have called this new video "Psychedelic Sub", maybe because it shows what happens when you do the editing in the middle of the night on a long train trip. I've always dreamed of diving my little sub in clear tropical water, so I attempted to edit for a dream-like ambiance. Enjoy, and crank up the volume. I hope it transports you to another place. > > https://vimeo.com/76340636 > > > > Best, > > Alec > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Mon Oct 7 12:11:33 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2013 12:11:33 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psychedelic Sub video Message-ID: Wow Alec! Almost brought tears to our eyes when Katy and I watched it. A true inspiration to psubers and ocean conservation. Can't wait to do it again!!! Thank you, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneAlec Smyth wrote:I have called this new video "Psychedelic Sub", maybe because it shows what happens when you do the editing in the middle of the night on a long train trip. I've always dreamed of diving my little sub in clear tropical water, so I attempted to edit for a dream-like ambiance. Enjoy, and crank up the volume. I hope it transports you to another place. https://vimeo.com/76340636 Best, Alec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psub101 at indy.rr.com Mon Oct 7 12:55:23 2013 From: psub101 at indy.rr.com (Steve McQueen) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 12:55:23 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psychedelic Sub video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003e01cec37e$03e52e90$0baf8bb0$@indy.rr.com> Too cool : ) Good job, very relaxing. I will share with my class this evening in lecture. I will try discuss the controls/instrumentation of Snoopy and Cliff's R-300 to supplement the course as well as try to drive some subsea interest into these younger engineering students. Steve From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth Sent: Monday, October 07, 2013 11:26 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psychedelic Sub video I have called this new video "Psychedelic Sub", maybe because it shows what happens when you do the editing in the middle of the night on a long train trip. I've always dreamed of diving my little sub in clear tropical water, so I attempted to edit for a dream-like ambiance. Enjoy, and crank up the volume. I hope it transports you to another place. https://vimeo.com/76340636 Best, Alec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Mon Oct 7 13:24:51 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 13:24:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psychedelic Sub video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D0919943CF194C-1D3C-6D21C@webmail-m215.sysops.aol.com> Nice Alec. Worth the long hot tow, I hope. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alec Smyth To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 8:28 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psychedelic Sub video I have called this new video "Psychedelic Sub", maybe because it shows what happens when you do the editing in the middle of the night on a long train trip. I've always dreamed of diving my little sub in clear tropical water, so I attempted to edit for a dream-like ambiance. Enjoy, and crank up the volume. I hope it transports you to another place. https://vimeo.com/76340636 Best, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 14:30:59 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 11:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psychedelic Sub video In-Reply-To: <8D0919943CF194C-1D3C-6D21C@webmail-m215.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1381170659.88550.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Nicely done (adobe premier elements perhaps?)...very artistic.

I'm saddened to see the condition of the reef. I remember the living aquarium days.

We are mucking up the damn planet!

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From groplias2 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 18:43:02 2013 From: groplias2 at yahoo.com (Juergen Guerrero Kommritz) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 23:43:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psychedelic Sub video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1381185782.90692.YahooMailNeo@web133005.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Very nice video. Congratulation. A nice dive. Best wishes Juergen ________________________________ Von: Alec Smyth An: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Gesendet: 10:26 Montag, 7.Oktober 2013 Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psychedelic Sub video I have called this new video "Psychedelic Sub", maybe because it shows what happens when you do the editing in the middle of the night on a long train trip. I've always dreamed of diving my little sub in clear tropical water, so I attempted to edit for a dream-like ambiance. Enjoy, and crank up the volume. I hope it transports you to another place. https://vimeo.com/76340636 Best, Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From edlunddds at comcast.net Mon Oct 7 23:50:07 2013 From: edlunddds at comcast.net (Kyle Edlund) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 22:50:07 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psychedelic Sub video In-Reply-To: <1381185782.90692.YahooMailNeo@web133005.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1381185782.90692.YahooMailNeo@web133005.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48E999CA-BECF-4DF3-A6EB-4FADA0E2580A@comcast.net> Great job ! Wish I could of made it there. Congrats to all on another great convention. Kyle Sent from my iPad On Oct 7, 2013, at 5:43 PM, Juergen Guerrero Kommritz wrote: > Very nice video. Congratulation. A nice dive. > Best wishes > Juergen > > > Von: Alec Smyth > An: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Gesendet: 10:26 Montag, 7.Oktober 2013 > Betreff: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psychedelic Sub video > > I have called this new video "Psychedelic Sub", maybe because it shows what happens when you do the editing in the middle of the night on a long train trip. I've always dreamed of diving my little sub in clear tropical water, so I attempted to edit for a dream-like ambiance. Enjoy, and crank up the volume. I hope it transports you to another place. > > https://vimeo.com/76340636 > > > > Best, > > Alec > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 16:29:17 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 13:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull diameter, and other musings In-Reply-To: <1381152911.60182.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1381067000.33539.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381070199.26505.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381081192.78259.YahooMailNeo@web140904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381152911.60182.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381177757.58939.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Boy I tell you, these little vignettes into life with a PSUB are driving home the realities of compromise. Thanks for the insight Greg. ? The?Nektons have a nice shape for towing and a reasonable and workable?compromise on volume, something to consider for emulation with regard to diameter?limited to say?42".?My problem is that I very much like the configuration of research submersibles with all of their goodies hanging out in the wind,.. so to speak. ? I would want a significant night dive, photography, video, and?light recovery?capability. This does not lend itself readily to streamlining, so I am wondering lately if a quick-release hydrodynamic FRP bow shell should be considered. ? I'm thinking that I could have the environmental issues solved by the inclusion of AC. ? Where do you dive Proteus Greg? Is the name a nod to it's namesake in the 66' film Fantastic Voyage? ? Joe ? ________________________________ From: greg cottrell To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 9:35 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull diameter The hull diameter on Proteus is a comfy 51" and it certainly has its benefits. I've had three people aboard the sub for more than an hour and it was very comfortable. ? But there are also downsides.?First, It does not tow very well at all. Some days?were spent? towing it to get to the dive site for hours and it can use up the whole day towing instead of diving. The other problem is the amount of drought- on more than one occasion I trailered the sub to a new location just to find that the ramp wasn't deep enough to float the sub off and had to pack up and go home. Not a fun day! ? If you go for a large diameter, pay more attention to streamlining and some method of getting it on and off the trailer in shallow water. ? Greg ? ? ? ________________________________ From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Larger diameter for sure. ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 10:36 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef ....and given a choice between lengthening or widening for increased interior volume, (keeping in mind tow-ability and trailer-ability) ? What is the general consensus? ? Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Mon Oct 7 13:42:19 2013 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 10:42:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psychedelic Sub video In-Reply-To: <003e01cec37e$03e52e90$0baf8bb0$@indy.rr.com> References: <003e01cec37e$03e52e90$0baf8bb0$@indy.rr.com> Message-ID: <1381167739.95586.YahooMailNeo@web140904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Stupendous is an adjective that comes to mind. ?To me, this is what it is all about...underwater exploring. ?I could easily spend hours moseying around the bottom looking at sand, rocks, coral, sponges and fish swimming by. ?Nice job editing the raw footage Alec. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Tue Oct 8 08:24:29 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 05:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psychedelic Sub video In-Reply-To: <1381167739.95586.YahooMailNeo@web140904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <003e01cec37e$03e52e90$0baf8bb0$@indy.rr.com> <1381167739.95586.YahooMailNeo@web140904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381235069.79103.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Nice Video Alec, I sure like how your K250 looks, you have taken a simple sub to a new level. Hank From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 11:42:19 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psychedelic Sub video Stupendous is an adjective that comes to mind. ?To me, this is what it is all about...underwater exploring. ?I could easily spend hours moseying around the bottom looking at sand, rocks, coral, sponges and fish swimming by. ?Nice job editing the raw footage Alec. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 8 09:58:10 2013 From: jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com (greg cottrell) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 06:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull diameter, and other musings In-Reply-To: <1381177757.58939.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381067000.33539.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381070199.26505.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381081192.78259.YahooMailNeo@web140904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381152911.60182.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1381177757.58939.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381240690.24352.YahooMailNeo@web121902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Joe, ? Yes, Proteus was named after the sub in the movie Fantastic Voyage. I thought that was the coolest movie ever when I was a kid! ? As far as diving goes, the sub has not been underwater for five years. But from 1994 until 2008 it dived in Virginia (lake Anna many times) Maryland (Chesapeake Bay) and Pennsylvania (Bainbridge quarry and Raystown Lake). After the 2006 Psubs convention I left the sub?in a marina right by the lake for quite a while. I used to leave work on Friday and drive to Raystown, get the sub from the marina, tow it to a lake side campsite, charge the batteries and replace bottles of air, then dive all weekend and go back to work on monday. It was a good time! ? Since then I've been building a new sub but the Proteus is also close to being?done with?a total overhaul and hopefully will be back in action soon. My plan is to eventually dive both subs together with help from a few friends. ? ? Greg ? ? ? ? ? ? ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull diameter, and other musings Boy I tell you, these little vignettes into life with a PSUB are driving home the realities of compromise. Thanks for the insight Greg. ? The?Nektons have a nice shape for towing and a reasonable and workable?compromise on volume, something to consider for emulation with regard to diameter?limited to say?42".?My problem is that I very much like the configuration of research submersibles with all of their goodies hanging out in the wind,.. so to speak. ? I would want a significant night dive, photography, video, and?light recovery?capability. This does not lend itself readily to streamlining, so I am wondering lately if a quick-release hydrodynamic FRP bow shell should be considered. ? I'm thinking that I could have the environmental issues solved by the inclusion of AC. ? Where do you dive Proteus Greg? Is the name a nod to it's namesake in the 66' film Fantastic Voyage? ? Joe ? ________________________________ From: greg cottrell To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 9:35 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hull diameter The hull diameter on Proteus is a comfy 51" and it certainly has its benefits. I've had three people aboard the sub for more than an hour and it was very comfortable. ? But there are also downsides.?First, It does not tow very well at all. Some days?were spent? towing it to get to the dive site for hours and it can use up the whole day towing instead of diving. The other problem is the amount of drought- on more than one occasion I trailered the sub to a new location just to find that the ramp wasn't deep enough to float the sub off and had to pack up and go home. Not a fun day! ? If you go for a large diameter, pay more attention to streamlining and some method of getting it on and off the trailer in shallow water. ? Greg ? ? ? ________________________________ From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Larger diameter for sure. ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 10:36 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef ....and given a choice between lengthening or widening for increased interior volume, (keeping in mind tow-ability and trailer-ability) ? What is the general consensus? ? Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seaquestor at gmail.com Tue Oct 8 11:34:24 2013 From: seaquestor at gmail.com (David Colombo) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 08:34:24 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psychedelic Sub video In-Reply-To: <48E999CA-BECF-4DF3-A6EB-4FADA0E2580A@comcast.net> References: <1381185782.90692.YahooMailNeo@web133005.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <48E999CA-BECF-4DF3-A6EB-4FADA0E2580A@comcast.net> Message-ID: Alec, great video. Thanks for letting Wy and I be a couple of support divers for the Snoopy early in the week. I will send my gopro videos as soon as I can get my head back above water. Thanks also for letting take the helm for my snoopy driving lesson (more like bump and steer ). It was an incredible experience for me and has given me great insight as to how to set up the joystick controls for the SeaQuestor sub. Best Regards, David Colombo On Oct 7, 2013 8:53 PM, "Kyle Edlund" wrote: > Great job ! Wish I could of made it there. Congrats to all on another > great convention. > Kyle > > Sent from my iPad > > On Oct 7, 2013, at 5:43 PM, Juergen Guerrero Kommritz > wrote: > > Very nice video. Congratulation. A nice dive. > Best wishes > Juergen > > > ------------------------------ > *Von:* Alec Smyth > *An:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Gesendet:* 10:26 Montag, 7.Oktober 2013 > *Betreff:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psychedelic Sub video > > I have called this new video "Psychedelic Sub", maybe because it shows > what happens when you do the editing in the middle of the night on a long > train trip. I've always dreamed of diving my little sub in clear tropical > water, so I attempted to edit for a dream-like ambiance. Enjoy, and crank > up the volume. I hope it transports you to another place. > > https://vimeo.com/76340636 > > > > Best, > > Alec > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Tue Oct 8 13:36:31 2013 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 13:36:31 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psychedelic Sub video In-Reply-To: References: <1381185782.90692.YahooMailNeo@web133005.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <48E999CA-BECF-4DF3-A6EB-4FADA0E2580A@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hey, thanks for your help! Also, I have your GoPro footage already, I got a copy while we were there. I just couldn't combine the footage from the gulf and ocean sides in the same video due to the color and visibility being so different. If you want any of my footage, just let me know! Thanks, Alec On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 11:34 AM, David Colombo wrote: > Alec, great video. Thanks for letting Wy and I be a couple of support > divers for the Snoopy early in the week. I will send my gopro videos as > soon as I can get my head back above water. Thanks also for letting take > the helm for my snoopy driving lesson (more like bump and steer ). It was > an incredible experience for me and has given me great insight as to how to > set up the joystick controls for the SeaQuestor sub. > Best Regards, > David Colombo > On Oct 7, 2013 8:53 PM, "Kyle Edlund" wrote: > >> Great job ! Wish I could of made it there. Congrats to all on another >> great convention. >> Kyle >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Oct 7, 2013, at 5:43 PM, Juergen Guerrero Kommritz < >> groplias2 at yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> Very nice video. Congratulation. A nice dive. >> Best wishes >> Juergen >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *Von:* Alec Smyth >> *An:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Gesendet:* 10:26 Montag, 7.Oktober 2013 >> *Betreff:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psychedelic Sub video >> >> I have called this new video "Psychedelic Sub", maybe because it shows >> what happens when you do the editing in the middle of the night on a long >> train trip. I've always dreamed of diving my little sub in clear tropical >> water, so I attempted to edit for a dream-like ambiance. Enjoy, and crank >> up the volume. I hope it transports you to another place. >> >> https://vimeo.com/76340636 >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Wed Oct 9 18:42:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 09 Oct 2013 22:42 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Uppss In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1VU2TF-1p1NJ20@fwd17.t-online.de> http://www.protothema.gr/files/1/2013/10/01/milan/gxbd7ueo.jpg http://www.protothema.gr/files/1/2013/10/01/milan/y4czflp4.jpg :-) vbr Carsten -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Wed Oct 9 19:02:38 2013 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 19:02:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Uppss Message-ID: <56513.75d1df9.3f873a8e@aol.com> Carsten, Some of us were talking about that last week at the Psubs convention, but had not yet seen the pictures. Do you have the narrative that goes with it? Jim In a message dated 10/9/2013 5:43:44 P.M. Central Daylight Time, MerlinSub at t-online.de writes: _ http://www.protothema.gr/files/1/2013/10/01/milan/gxbd7ueo.jpg_ (http://www.protothema.gr/files/1/2013/10/01/milan/gxbd7ueo.jpg) http://www.protothema.gr/files/1/2013/10/01/milan/y4czflp4.jpg :-) vbr Carsten _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Oct 9 20:48:56 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 17:48:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling Message-ID: <1381366136.6519.YahooMailNeo@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I?am trying to understand?George's design intent reference his 1 ATM SCH40 pipe housings and cooling. Where #8 SCH40 O.D. being 8.625" and your typical 2-3 HP DC enclosed fan cooled?motor being roughly 6", was it his intent to have this airspace between the motor and inner wall for air circulation, or is this space simply incidental? I am wondering if these housings can be slimmed down to a?more snug or custom fit with a reliance on conduction for cooling? Perhaps even filling the 1 ATM housing with non-compensated oil for the sole purpose of efficient conduction? I am also noting that the bow thruster industry likes to get the motor out of the props way with a 90 degree drive arrangement. This has interesting implications for?potentially more efficient and?downsized lateral thrusters. Some musings. Joe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Wed Oct 9 21:38:51 2013 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 15:38:51 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the write up and very interesting to hear the things you have encountered! One thing that caught my attention was the fact that it was difficult if not impossible to enter the sub with the 3? chop!. I am building a K-350 on the big Island and we have no lakes to dive in only the ocean so I may have to address that somehow. best wishes Rick Patton From: Paul Kreemer Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2013 9:35 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Thanks Alec, that's a great writeup of your adventure! Paul On Oct 5, 2013 11:05 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Great tale. You should take up writing. Most enjoyable and I could picture the whole thing. Best wishes Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth Sent: Sunday, 6 October 2013 6:18 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In Islamorada for the 2013 PSUBS convention, we tried a few days ago to dive the reefs off the Atlantic side of the island. After towing Snoopy out to the dive site, I had to call off the dive because a three foot chop made it unsafe to board. I made it aboard myself, but water was splashing over the hatch land, and with the weight of a second person it would have been touch and go. When their hatches are open, these little boats are like holes in the water just waiting to be filled up by the next wave. Three foot waves are not large, and they are entirely normal a few miles from shore, but they are just beyond practical conditions for Snoopy. For our second attempt on the reefs we changed tactics, deciding to board at the boat ramp and make the tow under a closed hatch. This would guarantee a dive regardless of wave conditions, but also introduce a new challenge. With a temperature of 89 degrees above the surface and 86 degrees below it, the problem was now how to avoid getting cooked during the tow. There was hardly a cloud in the sky, and Snoopy?s big acrylic dome hatch transforms her cabin into a greenhouse. The pilot, with his head in the middle of the dome, feels that he is under a giant magnifying glass. Hot air rises. Steve McQueen and I boarded at Harry Harris state park at 12:30, after having spent the morning at the local school giving four hundred local children a tour of the sub. Snoopy?s payload can be maximized by adding buoyancy spheres. We installed every available one, and used their buoyancy to load twenty pounds of ice inside the cabin. Our support diver, Scott Waters, attached a white hotel towel over the dome with bungee cord, and then tied off the tow line. We set out, towed by Doug Suhr in his whaler, an ideal surface support vessel. He had fashioned a custom wooden frame that allowed towing from a point just aft of midships. That is where tugs and trawlers attach their tow lines, and it allowed the whaler to retain good control, whereas in the past I had found Snoopy often turned around the towboat when towed from the transom. The tow was unexpectedly interesting, because of the bottom rushing by and constantly changing scenery. Most of the time it would be sand and sea grass, but there were always changes and it would at times become more rocky, or turn to pure sand, and drop away or rise up to just a couple of feet from us. We rushed past or right through clouds of jellies. As Steve put it, it felt like an arcade game. I have no idea how hot it was inside the sub, but it was surely an outrageous number. Prior to departure we had applied detergent to the viewports to prevent them from fogging. That succeeded on the forward viewport, but with that single exception every other surface in the boat streamed water profusely. Every ten minutes or so I would pick up a rapidly dwindling bag of ice and give it a hug, rest it on the back of my neck, or wear it as a hat. I went through five bottles of drinking water. Between the rolling of the boat, and the heat and humidity, I found myself getting a bit woozy. It was not sea sickness so much as a feeling of light-headedness, so we tried increasing the oxygen concentration in the cabin to counteract it. Between us we had been consuming ? liters of oxygen per minute, with the analyzer readings hovering around 19 percent and a fraction. We bumped up the flow to 4 liters per minute until the oxygen concentration reached 23 percent, a limit above which the cabin atmosphere would have become a fire hazard. That is only two percent above normal, but it made us both feel perceptibly better. We arrived at the dive site two hours after closing the hatch, and rather incredibly only four minutes after our target time of low tide. The twenty pounds of ice had all melted. Our normal tow speed is three knots, and the distance was only four miles, but some ?hatch closed? time was spent getting underway, some was spent on a stop to re-position the towel when it was displaced by waves washing over the dome, and some was spent on the final locating of the site. Doug anchored the whaler and Scott swam over to remove our towel sunshade, and to attach a video camera to the sub. In the previous few days the heat and humidity had already led to the failure of a depth sounder and a compass, so I had decided not to risk the good camera inside the sub. In tropical climates at least, the cabin is a very dangerous place for electronics. We initiated our dive and tested communications as soon as the transducer went under water. The gear worked, yet the communications were very faint. Snoopy?s transducers are mounted above the hull and immediately behind the conning tower. Being just beneath the surface and pointed in the direction of the whaler, the transducer?s line of sight to the boat was blocked by the conning tower. Once at depth the communications were loud and clear. The reef was unfortunately not healthy, as all reefs in this part of the world, yet it was absolutely fantastic compared to the lakes Snoopy normally dives in. There were large sponges, fish, and interesting terrain. In particular, we found ?streets? of sand running between raised mounds of coral on either side, reminiscent of scenes in the movie 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Visibility was about fifty feet. In Snoopy, almost all the viewing underwater is done through the bow viewport. Through the dome it is very hard to see the bottom unless diving alongside a wall or quite high terrain, and even in that scenario optical distortion causes features to appear very small and far off. Nonetheless, while I could hardly see the bottom through the dome, I did see a column of bubbles rising in the distance and steered Snoopy in their direction. It was Scott, who had found a lost anchor. He tied it to Snoopy?s pickup arm, and we blew some air into the ballast tanks and delivered it to the boat. We continued wandering the bottom, sometimes letting the current waft us along sideways and other times using the stern thruster to follow the ?sand roads?. These gradually led into deeper water, and we followed them hoping for the continental shelf drop-off that is only a short distance from Pickles reef. We started at thirty feet, and followed these paths down to a little over fifty feet, but unfortunately did not make it as far as the drop-off. Snoopy was ballasted ever so slightly buoyant, perhaps just a pound or two. One side thruster was locked in a straight down position, the other slightly inclined to counter the rotation induced by the props. Indeed the props only needed to turn very slowly to maintain depth, as if turned by hand instead of by a motor. To slowly rise I would shut them off, or I would speed them up to descend. The side thruster throttle acted as a ?depth knob?, allowing depth to be controlled with an accuracy of a couple of inches. Laying prone and looking out of the forward viewport, Steve had a good view of upcoming terrain. He acted as observer, calling out details about what lay ahead and asking for port or starboard headings and altitude adjustments. One tries to stay close to the bottom in order to see it better, but not touch anything in order to avoid damaging the reef. He took a turn at the controls as well, which in Snoopy does not mean that we changed places, but rather that we passed the remote controller between us. At one point we lost communications with the surface. We were to learn later that the whaler had re-positioned to follow us, and in doing so ran over its transducer cable, severing it and losing the transducer. The whaler could have tracked us by our acoustic pinger, but instead simply followed the bubbles of our support divers, who were following us by sight in the clear water. After an hour and a half of contented wandering, we suddenly sensed that the stern thruster had lost power. A moment later we both noticed a smell of burning. I turned off power to the stern thruster speed control, looked up to ensure we were not under the whaler, and immediately initiated a ballast blow, which gives a much faster rate of ascent than the thrusters. We could have continued maneuvering on side thrusters only, but it seemed prudent to call the dive. Afterwards I would discover that a little piece of fan coral had been sucked in by the stern thruster, and wedged between the propeller and its shroud. It was very tough material, and it locked up the thruster causing its speed controller to burn out. Although the speed controllers are supposed to have over-current protection, I will be adding breakers in the near future. One more surprise awaited us during the tow back to shore. After about an hour of towing, we had reached a spot at which the waves were lower, and we were on the radio to the whaler planning to pause the tow and transfer to her. But just then there was suddenly a very loud pop in the cabin, and my immediate thought was of a ruptured high pressure line. It was followed a second later by another equally loud pop. I was puzzled by the fact my ears were not registering any increase in cabin pressure, when I saw Steve?s life preserver inflating. These life preservers are of the type that resembles suspenders, inflated by a CO2 cartridge which Steve?s movement had accidentally triggered. For a moment it looked like his PFD might strangle him in the tight space, but he managed to wriggle out of it. I?ll be looking at some way to secure the rip cord on these PFDs, to make accidental deployment a little less likely. There is precious little space in Snoopy under normal conditions, but with an inflated PFD the lack of space becomes almost comical. Finally we came aboard the whaler. Being in the tower, I stowed my seat, climbed out, and closed the hatch quickly behind me. This allowed Steve to reposition himself into the tower without fear of being swamped while doing so. The hatch opened again, Steve jumped out, and we were both on deck. It had been five hours since we closed the hatch. It was only once back on the whaler I saw Steve was quite hungry. It was six in the evening, and he had avoided eating anything all day, anticipating that it would be a long dive and knowing that Snoopy has no head. Now that is dedication! Cheers, Alec __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8880 (20131005) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8880 (20131005) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Wed Oct 9 22:11:55 2013 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 16:11:55 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psychedelic Sub video In-Reply-To: <1381235069.79103.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <003e01cec37e$03e52e90$0baf8bb0$@indy.rr.com> <1381167739.95586.YahooMailNeo@web140904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381235069.79103.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7BE71B18E0C745079FD1AAF1CD8698BD@LandNSeaPC> Real nice Video and is an inspiration for me go get off my butt and keep going! I would of loved to make the convention but that is a long way from Hawaii. Hey, why don?t you all have the next one here...... Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 2:24 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psychedelic Sub video Nice Video Alec, I sure like how your K250 looks, you have taken a simple sub to a new level. Hank From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 11:42:19 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psychedelic Sub video Stupendous is an adjective that comes to mind. To me, this is what it is all about...underwater exploring. I could easily spend hours moseying around the bottom looking at sand, rocks, coral, sponges and fish swimming by. Nice job editing the raw footage Alec. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Wed Oct 9 22:13:08 2013 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 19:13:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Uppss In-Reply-To: <56513.75d1df9.3f873a8e@aol.com> Message-ID: <1381371188.59178.YahooMailBasic@web140901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> It's an advertising campaign but I don't know what product or company commissioned it. Very clever though. I guess alligators and crocs aren't the only things you can find in the sewers of big city's. -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 10/9/13, JimToddPsub at aol.com wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Uppss To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Date: Wednesday, October 9, 2013, 7:02 PM Carsten, Some of us were talking about that last week at the Psubs convention, but had not yet seen the pictures.? Do you have the narrative that goes with it? Jim ? In a message dated 10/9/2013 5:43:44 P.M. Central Daylight Time, MerlinSub at t-online.de writes: http://www.protothema.gr/files/1/2013/10/01/milan/gxbd7ueo.jpg http://www.protothema.gr/files/1/2013/10/01/milan/y4czflp4.jpg :-)?? vbr Carsten _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From alecsmyth at gmail.com Wed Oct 9 22:13:22 2013 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 22:13:22 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Rick, Well at least a 350 will be more resistant to it than a 250, since you have a taller coning tower. You may want to consider an Emile-style clear acrylic fairing around the coning tower to go even higher. Not sure if you are just catching up with email, but there's also this video: https://vimeo.com/76340636 Best, Alec On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 9:38 PM, Land N Sea wrote: > Thanks for the write up and very interesting to hear the things you > have encountered! One thing that caught my attention was the fact that it > was difficult if not impossible to enter the sub with the 3? chop!. I am > building a K-350 on the big Island and we have no lakes to dive in only the > ocean so I may have to address that somehow. > > best wishes > > Rick Patton > > *From:* Paul Kreemer > *Sent:* Sunday, October 06, 2013 9:35 AM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef > > > Thanks Alec, that's a great writeup of your adventure! > > Paul > On Oct 5, 2013 11:05 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: > >> Great tale. You should take up writing. Most enjoyable and I could >> picture the whole thing.**** >> >> Best wishes Hugh**** >> >> **** >> >> **** >> >> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Alec Smyth >> *Sent:* Sunday, 6 October 2013 6:18 p.m. >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef**** >> >> **** >> >> In Islamorada for the 2013 PSUBS convention, we tried a few days ago to >> dive the reefs off the Atlantic side of the island. After towing Snoopy out >> to the dive site, I had to call off the dive because a three foot chop made >> it unsafe to board. I made it aboard myself, but water was splashing over >> the hatch land, and with the weight of a second person it would have been >> touch and go. When their hatches are open, these little boats are like >> holes in the water just waiting to be filled up by the next wave. Three >> foot waves are not large, and they are entirely normal a few miles from >> shore, but they are just beyond practical conditions for Snoopy.**** >> >> For our second attempt on the reefs we changed tactics, deciding to board >> at the boat ramp and make the tow under a closed hatch. This would >> guarantee a dive regardless of wave conditions, but also introduce a new >> challenge. With a temperature of 89 degrees above the surface and 86 >> degrees below it, the problem was now how to avoid getting cooked during >> the tow. There was hardly a cloud in the sky, and Snoopy?s big acrylic dome >> hatch transforms her cabin into a greenhouse. The pilot, with his head in >> the middle of the dome, feels that he is under a giant magnifying glass. >> Hot air rises.**** >> >> Steve McQueen and I boarded at Harry Harris state park at 12:30, after >> having spent the morning at the local school giving four hundred local >> children a tour of the sub. Snoopy?s payload can be maximized by adding >> buoyancy spheres. We installed every available one, and used their buoyancy >> to load twenty pounds of ice inside the cabin. Our support diver, Scott >> Waters, attached a white hotel towel over the dome with bungee cord, and >> then tied off the tow line. We set out, towed by Doug Suhr in his whaler, >> an ideal surface support vessel. He had fashioned a custom wooden frame >> that allowed towing from a point just aft of midships. That is where tugs >> and trawlers attach their tow lines, and it allowed the whaler to retain >> good control, whereas in the past I had found Snoopy often turned around >> the towboat when towed from the transom.**** >> >> The tow was unexpectedly interesting, because of the bottom rushing by >> and constantly changing scenery. Most of the time it would be sand and sea >> grass, but there were always changes and it would at times become more >> rocky, or turn to pure sand, and drop away or rise up to just a couple of >> feet from us. We rushed past or right through clouds of jellies. As Steve >> put it, it felt like an arcade game.**** >> >> I have no idea how hot it was inside the sub, but it was surely an >> outrageous number. Prior to departure we had applied detergent to the >> viewports to prevent them from fogging. That succeeded on the forward >> viewport, but with that single exception every other surface in the boat >> streamed water profusely. Every ten minutes or so I would pick up a rapidly >> dwindling bag of ice and give it a hug, rest it on the back of my neck, or >> wear it as a hat. I went through five bottles of drinking water.**** >> >> Between the rolling of the boat, and the heat and humidity, I found >> myself getting a bit woozy. It was not sea sickness so much as a feeling of >> light-headedness, so we tried increasing the oxygen concentration in the >> cabin to counteract it. Between us we had been consuming ? liters of oxygen >> per minute, with the analyzer readings hovering around 19 percent and a >> fraction. We bumped up the flow to 4 liters per minute until the oxygen >> concentration reached 23 percent, a limit above which the cabin atmosphere >> would have become a fire hazard. That is only two percent above normal, but >> it made us both feel perceptibly better.**** >> >> We arrived at the dive site two hours after closing the hatch, and rather >> incredibly only four minutes after our target time of low tide. The twenty >> pounds of ice had all melted. Our normal tow speed is three knots, and the >> distance was only four miles, but some ?hatch closed? time was spent >> getting underway, some was spent on a stop to re-position the towel when it >> was displaced by waves washing over the dome, and some was spent on the >> final locating of the site. **** >> >> Doug anchored the whaler and Scott swam over to remove our towel >> sunshade, and to attach a video camera to the sub. In the previous few days >> the heat and humidity had already led to the failure of a depth sounder and >> a compass, so I had decided not to risk the good camera inside the sub. In >> tropical climates at least, the cabin is a very dangerous place for >> electronics.**** >> >> We initiated our dive and tested communications as soon as the transducer >> went under water. The gear worked, yet the communications were very faint. >> Snoopy?s transducers are mounted above the hull and immediately behind the >> conning tower. Being just beneath the surface and pointed in the direction >> of the whaler, the transducer?s line of sight to the boat was blocked by >> the conning tower. Once at depth the communications were loud and clear.* >> *** >> >> The reef was unfortunately not healthy, as all reefs in this part of the >> world, yet it was absolutely fantastic compared to the lakes Snoopy >> normally dives in. There were large sponges, fish, and interesting terrain. >> In particular, we found ?streets? of sand running between raised mounds of >> coral on either side, reminiscent of scenes in the movie 20,000 Leagues >> Under the Sea. Visibility was about fifty feet.**** >> >> In Snoopy, almost all the viewing underwater is done through the bow >> viewport. Through the dome it is very hard to see the bottom unless diving >> alongside a wall or quite high terrain, and even in that scenario optical >> distortion causes features to appear very small and far off. Nonetheless, >> while I could hardly see the bottom through the dome, I did see a column of >> bubbles rising in the distance and steered Snoopy in their direction. It >> was Scott, who had found a lost anchor. He tied it to Snoopy?s pickup arm, >> and we blew some air into the ballast tanks and delivered it to the boat. >> **** >> >> We continued wandering the bottom, sometimes letting the current waft us >> along sideways and other times using the stern thruster to follow the ?sand >> roads?. These gradually led into deeper water, and we followed them hoping >> for the continental shelf drop-off that is only a short distance from >> Pickles reef. We started at thirty feet, and followed these paths down to a >> little over fifty feet, but unfortunately did not make it as far as the >> drop-off.**** >> >> Snoopy was ballasted ever so slightly buoyant, perhaps just a pound or >> two. One side thruster was locked in a straight down position, the other >> slightly inclined to counter the rotation induced by the props. Indeed the >> props only needed to turn very slowly to maintain depth, as if turned by >> hand instead of by a motor. To slowly rise I would shut them off, or I >> would speed them up to descend. The side thruster throttle acted as a >> ?depth knob?, allowing depth to be controlled with an accuracy of a couple >> of inches.**** >> >> Laying prone and looking out of the forward viewport, Steve had a good >> view of upcoming terrain. He acted as observer, calling out details about >> what lay ahead and asking for port or starboard headings and altitude >> adjustments. One tries to stay close to the bottom in order to see it >> better, but not touch anything in order to avoid damaging the reef. He took >> a turn at the controls as well, which in Snoopy does not mean that we >> changed places, but rather that we passed the remote controller between us. >> **** >> >> At one point we lost communications with the surface. We were to learn >> later that the whaler had re-positioned to follow us, and in doing so ran >> over its transducer cable, severing it and losing the transducer. The >> whaler could have tracked us by our acoustic pinger, but instead simply >> followed the bubbles of our support divers, who were following us by sight >> in the clear water.**** >> >> After an hour and a half of contented wandering, we suddenly sensed that >> the stern thruster had lost power. A moment later we both noticed a smell >> of burning. I turned off power to the stern thruster speed control, looked >> up to ensure we were not under the whaler, and immediately initiated a >> ballast blow, which gives a much faster rate of ascent than the thrusters. >> We could have continued maneuvering on side thrusters only, but it seemed >> prudent to call the dive. Afterwards I would discover that a little piece >> of fan coral had been sucked in by the stern thruster, and wedged between >> the propeller and its shroud. It was very tough material, and it locked up >> the thruster causing its speed controller to burn out. Although the speed >> controllers are supposed to have over-current protection, I will be adding >> breakers in the near future.**** >> >> One more surprise awaited us during the tow back to shore. After about an >> hour of towing, we had reached a spot at which the waves were lower, and we >> were on the radio to the whaler planning to pause the tow and transfer to >> her. But just then there was suddenly a very loud pop in the cabin, and my >> immediate thought was of a ruptured high pressure line. It was followed a >> second later by another equally loud pop. I was puzzled by the fact my ears >> were not registering any increase in cabin pressure, when I saw Steve?s >> life preserver inflating. These life preservers are of the type that >> resembles suspenders, inflated by a CO2 cartridge which Steve?s movement >> had accidentally triggered. For a moment it looked like his PFD might >> strangle him in the tight space, but he managed to wriggle out of it. I?ll >> be looking at some way to secure the rip cord on these PFDs, to make >> accidental deployment a little less likely. There is precious little space >> in Snoopy under normal conditions, but with an inflated PFD the lack of >> space becomes almost comical.**** >> >> Finally we came aboard the whaler. Being in the tower, I stowed my seat, >> climbed out, and closed the hatch quickly behind me. This allowed Steve to >> reposition himself into the tower without fear of being swamped while doing >> so. The hatch opened again, Steve jumped out, and we were both on deck. It >> had been five hours since we closed the hatch.**** >> >> It was only once back on the whaler I saw Steve was quite hungry. It was >> six in the evening, and he had avoided eating anything all day, >> anticipating that it would be a long dive and knowing that Snoopy has no >> head. Now that is dedication!**** >> >> **** >> >> **** >> >> Cheers,**** >> >> >> Alec**** >> >> **** >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 8880 (20131005) __________**** >> >> **** >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.**** >> >> **** >> >> http://www.eset.com**** >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 8880 (20131005) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Wed Oct 9 22:57:43 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 22:57:43 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling In-Reply-To: <1381366136.6519.YahooMailNeo@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381366136.6519.YahooMailNeo@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <525617A7.20305@psubs.org> Never inquired about it with George. My guess is it had as much to do with the overall design as anything else. He used dog-ears at the open end to hold the motor which required a certain amount of material to support the 1/4 inch attachment bolts. I suspect the can size was based upon convenience. On 10/9/2013 8:48 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > I am trying to understand George's design intent reference his 1 ATM > SCH40 pipe housings and cooling. > Where #8 SCH40 O.D. being 8.625" and your typical 2-3 HP DC enclosed > fan cooled motor being roughly 6", was it his intent to have this > airspace between the motor and inner wall for air circulation, or is > this space simply incidental? > I am wondering if these housings can be slimmed down to a more snug or > custom fit with a reliance on conduction for cooling? Perhaps even > filling the 1 ATM housing with non-compensated oil for the sole > purpose of efficient conduction? > I am also noting that the bow thruster industry likes to get the motor > out of the props way with a 90 degree drive arrangement. This has > interesting implications for potentially more efficient and downsized > lateral thrusters. > Some musings. > Joe > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Thu Oct 10 02:45:49 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 23:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling In-Reply-To: <525617A7.20305@psubs.org> References: <1381366136.6519.YahooMailNeo@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <525617A7.20305@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1381387549.51438.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Jon, ? I was intigued by the condition of the motors on the K-600 after thier long entombment.? ? So as a result, I'm currently studying?his design as well as off-the-shelf examples?while?looking at ways to incorporate homebuilding with more modern materials and components. ? Joe On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 10:59 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: Never inquired about it with George.? My guess is it had as much to do with the overall design as anything else.? He used dog-ears at the open end to hold the motor which required a certain amount of material to support the 1/4 inch attachment bolts.? I suspect the can size was based upon convenience. On 10/9/2013 8:48 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: I?am trying to understand?George's design intent reference his 1 ATM SCH40 pipe housings and cooling. > >Where #8 SCH40 O.D. being 8.625" and your typical 2-3 HP DC enclosed fan cooled?motor being roughly 6", was it his intent to have this airspace between the motor and inner wall for air circulation, or is this space simply incidental? > >I am wondering if these housings can be slimmed down to a?more snug or custom fit with a reliance on conduction for cooling? Perhaps even filling the 1 ATM housing with non-compensated oil for the sole purpose of efficient conduction? > >I am also noting that the bow thruster industry likes to get the motor out of the props way with a 90 degree drive arrangement. This has interesting implications for?potentially more efficient and?downsized lateral thrusters. > >Some musings. > >Joe >? > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Oct 10 08:26:55 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 08:26:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling In-Reply-To: <1381366136.6519.YahooMailNeo@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381366136.6519.YahooMailNeo@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D093CB23F54A38-25C0-B012@webmail-d207.sysops.aol.com> Joe, We once machined a 3/4 hp 120 volt thruster motor and a piece of steel pipe to matching OD and ID. The idea was to make the unit smaller and perhaps help it run cooler. It ran hotter! The loss of air circulation in there was apparently more important than what would appear to be an improved heat sink. When I say hotter, I mean hotter than you could touch (even in the water). Hot enough, we decided, to fry the motor under heavy usage, which meant that it didn't work at all as far as we were concerned. The JSLs were the best example of on/off thrusters (no motor controls, only relays) I can think of, as they were used for main propulsion as well as for maneuvering. 1 1/4 hp/28 volt. The shaft end base plate of the motor was replaced with a machined aluminum section that serves as the bearing case on the motor side and as the housing for the planetary reduction gear on the prop side, and also as the mid-body of the thruster. The units are all aluminum (5000 series?). The motors fit fairly close in there, but with a distinctive air space. All the pieces were o-ring sealed (no welding) and held together with spring loaded flip clamps. >From front to back you get the forward end plate with bulkhead connector, the motor sleeve, then the gear case, followed by the sand cast back bullet that contains a flex-shaft coupling, bearings, and the shaft seal, then the prop and nozzle. The props were/are 14/14 inch square tipped four blades running in a machined syntactic foam nozzle and maybe, I say again, maybe, put out a hundred pounds of thrust. Not small, and probably not very efficient by modern standards, but they were to all intents and purposes bulletproof, save the occasional shaft seal failure. Cooling was never a problem with these things. They were designed and built in-house, and we carried a spare or two offshore. Each sub had eight of them (4 horizontal aft, 2 lateral fore and aft, and 2 vertical fore and aft). Not lightweight, but serviceable and (certainly by modern standards) cheap. George and I talked a good bit about the thrusters we used offshore and the ones he built. His were built from available stock material and, except for the custom order extended shafts, were off-the-shelf. In his view, they worked fine. He didn't care for trolling motors. Not enough torque. Something that Alex proved once again in the Keys by choking one down with a piece of soft coral. Something to keep in mind. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Wed, Oct 9, 2013 5:49 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling I am trying to understand George's design intent reference his 1 ATM SCH40 pipe housings and cooling. Where #8 SCH40 O.D. being 8.625" and your typical 2-3 HP DC enclosed fan cooled motor being roughly 6", was it his intent to have this airspace between the motor and inner wall for air circulation, or is this space simply incidental? I am wondering if these housings can be slimmed down to a more snug or custom fit with a reliance on conduction for cooling? Perhaps even filling the 1 ATM housing with non-compensated oil for the sole purpose of efficient conduction? I am also noting that the bow thruster industry likes to get the motor out of the props way with a 90 degree drive arrangement. This has interesting implications for potentially more efficient and downsized lateral thrusters. Some musings. Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Thu Oct 10 10:07:25 2013 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 07:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling In-Reply-To: <1381387549.51438.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381414045.38458.YahooMailBasic@web140905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> My foremost advice would be not to use the "spin-on" design that George came up with for the propeller end of the can. I had a hell of a time getting them off after extended non-use, lots of penetrating oil and a three foot crowbar. I think a better design is the one that LakeDiver uses which pulls the two halves together via three equidistant bolts. See http://www.psubs.org/convention/2003/pics.cgi?pics/k350-2/PDR_0073.JPG -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/10/13, Joe Perkel wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Thursday, October 10, 2013, 2:45 AM Jon,?I was intigued by the condition of the motors on the K-600 after thier long entombment.? ?So as a result, I'm currently studying?his design as well as off-the-shelf examples?while?looking at ways to incorporate homebuilding with more modern materials and components.?Joe From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Oct 10 10:44:57 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 10:44:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling In-Reply-To: <1381414045.38458.YahooMailBasic@web140905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381414045.38458.YahooMailBasic@web140905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D093DE6CD690C7-27EC-C68A@webmail-m257.sysops.aol.com> Truthfully, Jon, I wouldn't use the caps at all. I'd be more prone to ask Cliff or somebody to figure a no-deflection flat disc for that diameter at test depth and machine a better o-ring arrangement into them for whatever cylinder length is required. Weld the front one, and use the back one as the closure end AND mounting plate for the motor., with the seal tube welded outboard. I'm betting you would cut the housing weight down substantially, and make the thing much easier to service. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Oct 10, 2013 7:08 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling My foremost advice would be not to use the "spin-on" design that George came up with for the propeller end of the can. I had a hell of a time getting them off after extended non-use, lots of penetrating oil and a three foot crowbar. I think a better design is the one that LakeDiver uses which pulls the two halves together via three equidistant bolts. See http://www.psubs.org/convention/2003/pics.cgi?pics/k350-2/PDR_0073.JPG -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/10/13, Joe Perkel wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Thursday, October 10, 2013, 2:45 AM Jon, I was intigued by the condition of the motors on the K-600 after thier long entombment. So as a result, I'm currently studying his design as well as off-the-shelf examples while looking at ways to incorporate homebuilding with more modern materials and components. Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Thu Oct 10 10:52:23 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 09:52:23 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling Message-ID: <7x5ilp0ckekoy5jb81a3k1fm.1381416706483@email.android.com> I would agree with Jon. The spin on design isn't very good. -Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneJon Wallace wrote: My foremost advice would be not to use the "spin-on" design that George came up with for the propeller end of the can.? I had a hell of a time getting them off after extended non-use, lots of penetrating oil and a three foot crowbar.? I think a better design is the one that LakeDiver uses which pulls the two halves together via three equidistant bolts.? See http://www.psubs.org/convention/2003/pics.cgi?pics/k350-2/PDR_0073.JPG -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/10/13, Joe Perkel wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Thursday, October 10, 2013, 2:45 AM Jon,?I was intigued by the condition of the motors on the K-600 after thier long entombment.? ?So as a result, I'm currently studying?his design as well as off-the-shelf examples?while?looking at ways to incorporate homebuilding with more modern materials and components.?Joe ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Thu Oct 10 12:19:40 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 09:19:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling In-Reply-To: <8D093CB23F54A38-25C0-B012@webmail-d207.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1381421980.58366.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Vance,

I recognized immediately that very "off-the-shelf" utility. Still, it's an area of unfamiliarity so that's why the wary eye on seemingly innocuous details like that air gap. With that in mind and an interest in exploiting advantages of any potential modern improvements, the question then becomes,..What are the big dogs doing to get into those tall weeds?

http://www.tecnadyne.com/cms/index.php/products/products-overview/thruster

In looking at the tech specs for this product line the first question to come to my mind is why the stupendous range of voltages? (up to 330 vdc).

The next several observations of interest then being:

The use of high rpm low inertia motors coupled to high ratio planetary reduction drives
The use of 6061 T6 AL housings
The exclusive use of magnetic couplings
The option to oil compensate the same dry units used in shallower depths
The use of beautifully designed and fabricated Kort nozzles

So in my letter to Santa for the stocking stuffer, ...this one @ 48 vdc,....
http://www.tecnadyne.com/cms/images/products/pdf/Model%202020%20Brochure.pdf

The question then becomes, what can a home builder using off the shelf components and T-Rex fabrication techniques realistically hope to take from the big dogs?

Joe




Thanks for the detailed response which I've saved accordingly.

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Oct 10 12:33:53 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 12:33:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling In-Reply-To: <1381421980.58366.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381421980.58366.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D093EDA2EC76E4-804-D4A9@webmail-d232.sysops.aol.com> I was perusing the new Nuytco pages and casting a wishful eye on the new thrusters (which are NOT called Nuyt-Screws, at least not out loud. It's a biggish unit--47# air weight with a 12" prop, and you get out what you put in. Down at 200 volts, you get 1 hp. At 400 you get over 4. And they are magnetically coupled. No compensation, so easy to maintain. No rotary seals, so no chance of leaking with reasonable care on the casing o-rings. Very cool stuff. Maybe we could look into adapting someone's magnetic coupling. I know how they work, but how do you attach a propeller, for instance? Simple as pie, Phil might say. I will remind you that is the same Phil who cooked up super-intuitive foot controls and articulated hands and rotary joints for hard suits. It seems to me that the simpler they are to use, the harder they are to create. That said, mag couplings aren't magic, but do require more than just fiddling together junk box and ebay stuff. Someone with more engineering know-how than I know how would have to design the things. Not to mention the new housings. And the cost, etc. Technadyne quoted about $10K/unit for thrusters at UI last year. A set of those babies would cost pretty much what a K-style boat would cost all up. Yikes. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Thu, Oct 10, 2013 9:20 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling Vance, I recognized immediately that very "off-the-shelf" utility. Still, it's an area of unfamiliarity so that's why the wary eye on seemingly innocuous details like that air gap. With that in mind and an interest in exploiting advantages of any potential modern improvements, the question then becomes,..What are the big dogs doing to get into those tall weeds? http://www.tecnadyne.com/cms/index.php/products/products-overview/thruster In looking at the tech specs for this product line the first question to come to my mind is why the stupendous range of voltages? (up to 330 vdc). The next several observations of interest then being: The use of high rpm low inertia motors coupled to high ratio planetary reduction drives The use of 6061 T6 AL housings The exclusive use of magnetic couplings The option to oil compensate the same dry units used in shallower depths The use of beautifully designed and fabricated Kort nozzles So in my letter to Santa for the stocking stuffer, ...this one @ 48 vdc,.... The question then becomes, what can a home builder using off the shelf components and T-Rex fabrication techniques realistically hope to take from the big dogs? Joe Thanks for the detailed response which I've saved accordingly. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: vbra676539 at aol.com ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling Sent: Thu, Oct 10, 2013 12:26:55 PM Joe, We once machined a 3/4 hp 120 volt thruster motor and a piece of steel pipe to matching OD and ID. The idea was to make the unit smaller and perhaps help it run cooler. It ran hotter! The loss of air circulation in there was apparently more important than what would appear to be an improved heat sink. When I say hotter, I mean hotter than you could touch (even in the water). Hot enough, we decided, to fry the motor under heavy usage, which meant that it didn't work at all as far as we were concerned. The JSLs were the best example of on/off thrusters (no motor controls, only relays) I can think of, as they were used for main propulsion as well as for maneuvering. 1 1/4 hp/28 volt. The shaft end base plate of the motor was replaced with a machined aluminum section that serves as the bearing case on the motor side and as the housing for the planetary reduction gear on the prop side, and also as the mid-body of the thruster. The units are all aluminum (5000 series?). The motors fit fairly close in there, but with a distinctive air space. All the pieces were o-ring sealed (no welding) and held together with spring loaded flip clamps. >From front to back you get the forward end plate with bulkhead connector, the motor sleeve, then the gear case, followed by the sand cast back bullet that contains a flex-shaft coupling, bearings, and the shaft seal, then the prop and nozzle. The props were/are 14/14 inch square tipped four blades running in a machined syntactic foam nozzle and maybe, I say again, maybe, put out a hundred pounds of thrust. Not small, and probably not very efficient by modern standards, but they were to all intents and purposes bulletproof, save the occasional shaft seal failure. Cooling was never a problem with these things. They were designed and built in-house, and we carried a spare or two offshore. Each sub had eight of them (4 horizontal aft, 2 lateral fore and aft, and 2 vertical fore and aft). Not lightweight, but serviceable and (certainly by modern standards) cheap. George and I talked a good bit about the thrusters we used offshore and the ones he built. His were built from available stock material and, except for the custom order extended shafts, were off-the-shelf. In his view, they worked fine. He didn't care for trolling motors. Not enough torque. Something that Alex proved once again in the Keys by choking one down with a piece of soft coral. Something to keep in mind. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Wed, Oct 9, 2013 5:49 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling I am trying to understand George's design intent reference his 1 ATM SCH40 pipe housings and cooling. Where #8 SCH40 O.D. being 8.625" and your typical 2-3 HP DC enclosed fan cooled motor being roughly 6", was it his intent to have this airspace between the motor and inner wall for air circulation, or is this space simply incidental? I am wondering if these housings can be slimmed down to a more snug or custom fit with a reliance on conduction for cooling? Perhaps even filling the 1 ATM housing with non-compensated oil for the sole purpose of efficient conduction? I am also noting that the bow thruster industry likes to get the motor out of the props way with a 90 degree drive arrangement. This has interesting implications for potentially more efficient and downsized lateral thrusters. Some musings. Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Thu Oct 10 12:52:49 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 11:52:49 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling Message-ID: Joe, How much does one of those tecnadyne motors cost? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneJoe Perkel wrote:Vance, I recognized immediately that very "off-the-shelf" utility. Still, it's an area of unfamiliarity so that's why the wary eye on seemingly innocuous details like that air gap. With that in mind and an interest in exploiting advantages of any potential modern improvements, the question then becomes,..What are the big dogs doing to get into those tall weeds? http://www.tecnadyne.com/cms/index.php/products/products-overview/thruster In looking at the tech specs for this product line the first question to come to my mind is why the stupendous range of voltages? (up to 330 vdc). The next several observations of interest then being: The use of high rpm low inertia motors coupled to high ratio planetary reduction drives The use of 6061 T6 AL housings The exclusive use of magnetic couplings The option to oil compensate the same dry units used in shallower depths The use of beautifully designed and fabricated Kort nozzles So in my letter to Santa for the stocking stuffer, ...this one @ 48 vdc,.... http://www.tecnadyne.com/cms/images/products/pdf/Model%202020%20Brochure.pdf The question then becomes, what can a home builder using off the shelf components and T-Rex fabrication techniques realistically hope to take from the big dogs? Joe Thanks for the detailed response which I've saved accordingly. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: vbra676539 at aol.com ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling Sent: Thu, Oct 10, 2013 12:26:55 PM Joe, ? We once machined a 3/4 hp 120 volt thruster motor and a piece of steel?pipe to matching OD and ID. The idea was to make the unit smaller and perhaps help it run cooler. It ran hotter! The loss of air circulation in there was apparently more important than what would appear to be an improved heat sink. When I say hotter, I mean hotter than you could touch (even in the water). Hot enough, we decided,?to fry the motor under heavy usage, which meant that it didn't work at all as far as we were concerned. ? The JSLs were the best example of on/off thrusters (no motor controls, only relays) I can think of, as they were used for main propulsion as well as for maneuvering. 1 1/4 hp/28 volt. The shaft end base plate?of the motor was replaced with a machined aluminum section that serves as the bearing case on the motor side and as the housing for the planetary reduction gear on the prop side, and also as the mid-body of the thruster. The units are all aluminum (5000 series?). The motors fit fairly close in there, but with a distinctive air space. All the pieces were o-ring sealed (no welding) and held together with spring loaded flip clamps. ? From front to back you get the forward end plate with bulkhead connector, the?motor sleeve, then the gear case, followed by the sand cast back bullet that contains a flex-shaft coupling, bearings,?and the shaft seal, then the prop and nozzle. The props were/are 14/14 inch square tipped four blades running in a machined syntactic foam nozzle and maybe, I say again, maybe, put out a hundred pounds of thrust. Not small, and probably not very efficient by modern standards, but they were to all intents and purposes bulletproof, save the occasional shaft seal failure. ? Cooling was never a problem with these things. They were designed and built in-house, and we carried a spare or two offshore. Each sub had eight of them (4 horizontal aft, 2 lateral fore and aft, and 2 vertical fore and aft). Not lightweight, but serviceable and (certainly by modern?standards) cheap. ? George and I talked a good bit about the thrusters we used offshore and the ones he built. His were built from available stock material and, except for the custom order extended shafts, were off-the-shelf. In his view, they worked fine. He didn't care for trolling motors. Not enough torque. Something that Alex proved once again in the Keys by choking one down with a piece of soft coral. Something to keep in mind. ? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Wed, Oct 9, 2013 5:49 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling I?am trying to understand?George's design intent reference his 1 ATM SCH40 pipe housings and cooling. ? Where #8 SCH40 O.D. being 8.625" and your typical 2-3 HP DC enclosed fan cooled?motor being roughly 6", was it his intent to have this airspace between the motor and inner wall for air circulation, or is this space simply incidental? ? I am wondering if these housings can be slimmed down to a?more snug or custom fit with a reliance on conduction for cooling? Perhaps even filling the 1 ATM housing with non-compensated oil for the sole purpose of efficient conduction? ? I am also noting that the bow thruster industry likes to get the motor out of the props way with a 90 degree drive arrangement. This has interesting implications for?potentially more efficient and?downsized lateral thrusters. ? Some musings. ? Joe ? ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Thu Oct 10 13:30:05 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 10:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling In-Reply-To: <8D093EDA2EC76E4-804-D4A9@webmail-d232.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1381426205.17029.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I hear you. I've always had a talent for duplication but lack in original thinking or innovation. That's the difference between working men and captains of industry.

I'm also on the same head scratching page for the prop / coupling interface but, I'm on the trail nose to the ground. I'm thinking the key is in the prop hub, making it integral to the coupling while taking note of torque, slip, specs, etc, I just need a clear example to emulate, the really smart guys have already called out the specs otherwise. The danger is in missing something like that circulation gap for example.

Thanks for the input Vance!

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Thu Oct 10 13:33:14 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 10:33:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1381426394.93987.YahooMailIosMobile@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Scott,

Like Vance says north of 10k.

Quite frankly I'm more concerned about the price and availability of appropriately sized mag couplers in small lots.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Thu Oct 10 13:45:02 2013 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 07:45:02 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesn?t have the dome so I hopefully won?t have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome but I was thinking about Emile?s clear acrylic fairing as an option when I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as Florida so I will probably be trying Phil?s idea of the frozen pouches vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my scrubber blowing against it. We have a heck of a fetch here in the middle of the pacific for the wind/waves to build and a three foot wave is considered the norm but I think the good news is that the tops of the waves may be further apart here giving a better window to get in and out quickly. Thanks Rick From: Alec Smyth Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 4:13 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Hi Rick, Well at least a 350 will be more resistant to it than a 250, since you have a taller coning tower. You may want to consider an Emile-style clear acrylic fairing around the coning tower to go even higher. Not sure if you are just catching up with email, but there's also this video: https://vimeo.com/76340636 Best, Alec On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 9:38 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Thanks for the write up and very interesting to hear the things you have encountered! One thing that caught my attention was the fact that it was difficult if not impossible to enter the sub with the 3? chop!. I am building a K-350 on the big Island and we have no lakes to dive in only the ocean so I may have to address that somehow. best wishes Rick Patton From: Paul Kreemer Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2013 9:35 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Thanks Alec, that's a great writeup of your adventure! Paul On Oct 5, 2013 11:05 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Great tale. You should take up writing. Most enjoyable and I could picture the whole thing. Best wishes Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth Sent: Sunday, 6 October 2013 6:18 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In Islamorada for the 2013 PSUBS convention, we tried a few days ago to dive the reefs off the Atlantic side of the island. After towing Snoopy out to the dive site, I had to call off the dive because a three foot chop made it unsafe to board. I made it aboard myself, but water was splashing over the hatch land, and with the weight of a second person it would have been touch and go. When their hatches are open, these little boats are like holes in the water just waiting to be filled up by the next wave. Three foot waves are not large, and they are entirely normal a few miles from shore, but they are just beyond practical conditions for Snoopy. For our second attempt on the reefs we changed tactics, deciding to board at the boat ramp and make the tow under a closed hatch. This would guarantee a dive regardless of wave conditions, but also introduce a new challenge. With a temperature of 89 degrees above the surface and 86 degrees below it, the problem was now how to avoid getting cooked during the tow. There was hardly a cloud in the sky, and Snoopy?s big acrylic dome hatch transforms her cabin into a greenhouse. The pilot, with his head in the middle of the dome, feels that he is under a giant magnifying glass. Hot air rises. Steve McQueen and I boarded at Harry Harris state park at 12:30, after having spent the morning at the local school giving four hundred local children a tour of the sub. Snoopy?s payload can be maximized by adding buoyancy spheres. We installed every available one, and used their buoyancy to load twenty pounds of ice inside the cabin. Our support diver, Scott Waters, attached a white hotel towel over the dome with bungee cord, and then tied off the tow line. We set out, towed by Doug Suhr in his whaler, an ideal surface support vessel. He had fashioned a custom wooden frame that allowed towing from a point just aft of midships. That is where tugs and trawlers attach their tow lines, and it allowed the whaler to retain good control, whereas in the past I had found Snoopy often turned around the towboat when towed from the transom. The tow was unexpectedly interesting, because of the bottom rushing by and constantly changing scenery. Most of the time it would be sand and sea grass, but there were always changes and it would at times become more rocky, or turn to pure sand, and drop away or rise up to just a couple of feet from us. We rushed past or right through clouds of jellies. As Steve put it, it felt like an arcade game. I have no idea how hot it was inside the sub, but it was surely an outrageous number. Prior to departure we had applied detergent to the viewports to prevent them from fogging. That succeeded on the forward viewport, but with that single exception every other surface in the boat streamed water profusely. Every ten minutes or so I would pick up a rapidly dwindling bag of ice and give it a hug, rest it on the back of my neck, or wear it as a hat. I went through five bottles of drinking water. Between the rolling of the boat, and the heat and humidity, I found myself getting a bit woozy. It was not sea sickness so much as a feeling of light-headedness, so we tried increasing the oxygen concentration in the cabin to counteract it. Between us we had been consuming ? liters of oxygen per minute, with the analyzer readings hovering around 19 percent and a fraction. We bumped up the flow to 4 liters per minute until the oxygen concentration reached 23 percent, a limit above which the cabin atmosphere would have become a fire hazard. That is only two percent above normal, but it made us both feel perceptibly better. We arrived at the dive site two hours after closing the hatch, and rather incredibly only four minutes after our target time of low tide. The twenty pounds of ice had all melted. Our normal tow speed is three knots, and the distance was only four miles, but some ?hatch closed? time was spent getting underway, some was spent on a stop to re-position the towel when it was displaced by waves washing over the dome, and some was spent on the final locating of the site. Doug anchored the whaler and Scott swam over to remove our towel sunshade, and to attach a video camera to the sub. In the previous few days the heat and humidity had already led to the failure of a depth sounder and a compass, so I had decided not to risk the good camera inside the sub. In tropical climates at least, the cabin is a very dangerous place for electronics. We initiated our dive and tested communications as soon as the transducer went under water. The gear worked, yet the communications were very faint. Snoopy?s transducers are mounted above the hull and immediately behind the conning tower. Being just beneath the surface and pointed in the direction of the whaler, the transducer?s line of sight to the boat was blocked by the conning tower. Once at depth the communications were loud and clear. The reef was unfortunately not healthy, as all reefs in this part of the world, yet it was absolutely fantastic compared to the lakes Snoopy normally dives in. There were large sponges, fish, and interesting terrain. In particular, we found ?streets? of sand running between raised mounds of coral on either side, reminiscent of scenes in the movie 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Visibility was about fifty feet. In Snoopy, almost all the viewing underwater is done through the bow viewport. Through the dome it is very hard to see the bottom unless diving alongside a wall or quite high terrain, and even in that scenario optical distortion causes features to appear very small and far off. Nonetheless, while I could hardly see the bottom through the dome, I did see a column of bubbles rising in the distance and steered Snoopy in their direction. It was Scott, who had found a lost anchor. He tied it to Snoopy?s pickup arm, and we blew some air into the ballast tanks and delivered it to the boat. We continued wandering the bottom, sometimes letting the current waft us along sideways and other times using the stern thruster to follow the ?sand roads?. These gradually led into deeper water, and we followed them hoping for the continental shelf drop-off that is only a short distance from Pickles reef. We started at thirty feet, and followed these paths down to a little over fifty feet, but unfortunately did not make it as far as the drop-off. Snoopy was ballasted ever so slightly buoyant, perhaps just a pound or two. One side thruster was locked in a straight down position, the other slightly inclined to counter the rotation induced by the props. Indeed the props only needed to turn very slowly to maintain depth, as if turned by hand instead of by a motor. To slowly rise I would shut them off, or I would speed them up to descend. The side thruster throttle acted as a ?depth knob?, allowing depth to be controlled with an accuracy of a couple of inches. Laying prone and looking out of the forward viewport, Steve had a good view of upcoming terrain. He acted as observer, calling out details about what lay ahead and asking for port or starboard headings and altitude adjustments. One tries to stay close to the bottom in order to see it better, but not touch anything in order to avoid damaging the reef. He took a turn at the controls as well, which in Snoopy does not mean that we changed places, but rather that we passed the remote controller between us. At one point we lost communications with the surface. We were to learn later that the whaler had re-positioned to follow us, and in doing so ran over its transducer cable, severing it and losing the transducer. The whaler could have tracked us by our acoustic pinger, but instead simply followed the bubbles of our support divers, who were following us by sight in the clear water. After an hour and a half of contented wandering, we suddenly sensed that the stern thruster had lost power. A moment later we both noticed a smell of burning. I turned off power to the stern thruster speed control, looked up to ensure we were not under the whaler, and immediately initiated a ballast blow, which gives a much faster rate of ascent than the thrusters. We could have continued maneuvering on side thrusters only, but it seemed prudent to call the dive. Afterwards I would discover that a little piece of fan coral had been sucked in by the stern thruster, and wedged between the propeller and its shroud. It was very tough material, and it locked up the thruster causing its speed controller to burn out. Although the speed controllers are supposed to have over-current protection, I will be adding breakers in the near future. One more surprise awaited us during the tow back to shore. After about an hour of towing, we had reached a spot at which the waves were lower, and we were on the radio to the whaler planning to pause the tow and transfer to her. But just then there was suddenly a very loud pop in the cabin, and my immediate thought was of a ruptured high pressure line. It was followed a second later by another equally loud pop. I was puzzled by the fact my ears were not registering any increase in cabin pressure, when I saw Steve?s life preserver inflating. These life preservers are of the type that resembles suspenders, inflated by a CO2 cartridge which Steve?s movement had accidentally triggered. For a moment it looked like his PFD might strangle him in the tight space, but he managed to wriggle out of it. I?ll be looking at some way to secure the rip cord on these PFDs, to make accidental deployment a little less likely. There is precious little space in Snoopy under normal conditions, but with an inflated PFD the lack of space becomes almost comical. Finally we came aboard the whaler. Being in the tower, I stowed my seat, climbed out, and closed the hatch quickly behind me. This allowed Steve to reposition himself into the tower without fear of being swamped while doing so. The hatch opened again, Steve jumped out, and we were both on deck. It had been five hours since we closed the hatch. It was only once back on the whaler I saw Steve was quite hungry. It was six in the evening, and he had avoided eating anything all day, anticipating that it would be a long dive and knowing that Snoopy has no head. Now that is dedication! Cheers, Alec __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8880 (20131005) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8880 (20131005) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Thu Oct 10 13:57:59 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 12:57:59 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling Message-ID: Wow. Gotta love commercial submarine parts prices. Now, if it made margaritas while pushing the sub, it would be worth it! Haha Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneJoe Perkel wrote:Scott, Like Vance says north of 10k. Quite frankly I'm more concerned about the price and availability of appropriately sized mag couplers in small lots. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: swaters ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling Sent: Thu, Oct 10, 2013 4:52:49 PM Joe, How much does one of those tecnadyne motors cost? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Joe Perkel wrote: Vance, I recognized immediately that very "off-the-shelf" utility. Still, it's an area of unfamiliarity so that's why the wary eye on seemingly innocuous details like that air gap. With that in mind and an interest in exploiting advantages of any potential modern improvements, the question then becomes,..What are the big dogs doing to get into those tall weeds? http://www.tecnadyne.com/cms/index.php/products/products-overview/thruster In looking at the tech specs for this product line the first question to come to my mind is why the stupendous range of voltages? (up to 330 vdc). The next several observations of interest then being: The use of high rpm low inertia motors coupled to high ratio planetary reduction drives The use of 6061 T6 AL housings The exclusive use of magnetic couplings The option to oil compensate the same dry units used in shallower depths The use of beautifully designed and fabricated Kort nozzles So in my letter to Santa for the stocking stuffer, ...this one @ 48 vdc,.... http://www.tecnadyne.com/cms/images/products/pdf/Model%202020%20Brochure.pdf The question then becomes, what can a home builder using off the shelf components and T-Rex fabrication techniques realistically hope to take from the big dogs? Joe Thanks for the detailed response which I've saved accordingly. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: vbra676539 at aol.com ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling Sent: Thu, Oct 10, 2013 12:26:55 PM Joe, ? We once machined a 3/4 hp 120 volt thruster motor and a piece of steel?pipe to matching OD and ID. The idea was to make the unit smaller and perhaps help it run cooler. It ran hotter! The loss of air circulation in there was apparently more important than what would appear to be an improved heat sink. When I say hotter, I mean hotter than you could touch (even in the water). Hot enough, we decided,?to fry the motor under heavy usage, which meant that it didn't work at all as far as we were concerned. ? The JSLs were the best example of on/off thrusters (no motor controls, only relays) I can think of, as they were used for main propulsion as well as for maneuvering. 1 1/4 hp/28 volt. The shaft end base plate?of the motor was replaced with a machined aluminum section that serves as the bearing case on the motor side and as the housing for the planetary reduction gear on the prop side, and also as the mid-body of the thruster. The units are all aluminum (5000 series?). The motors fit fairly close in there, but with a distinctive air space. All the pieces were o-ring sealed (no welding) and held together with spring loaded flip clamps. ? From front to back you get the forward end plate with bulkhead connector, the?motor sleeve, then the gear case, followed by the sand cast back bullet that contains a flex-shaft coupling, bearings,?and the shaft seal, then the prop and nozzle. The props were/are 14/14 inch square tipped four blades running in a machined syntactic foam nozzle and maybe, I say again, maybe, put out a hundred pounds of thrust. Not small, and probably not very efficient by modern standards, but they were to all intents and purposes bulletproof, save the occasional shaft seal failure. ? Cooling was never a problem with these things. They were designed and built in-house, and we carried a spare or two offshore. Each sub had eight of them (4 horizontal aft, 2 lateral fore and aft, and 2 vertical fore and aft). Not lightweight, but serviceable and (certainly by modern?standards) cheap. ? George and I talked a good bit about the thrusters we used offshore and the ones he built. His were built from available stock material and, except for the custom order extended shafts, were off-the-shelf. In his view, they worked fine. He didn't care for trolling motors. Not enough torque. Something that Alex proved once again in the Keys by choking one down with a piece of soft coral. Something to keep in mind. ? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Wed, Oct 9, 2013 5:49 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling I?am trying to understand?George's design intent reference his 1 ATM SCH40 pipe housings and cooling. ? Where #8 SCH40 O.D. being 8.625" and your typical 2-3 HP DC enclosed fan cooled?motor being roughly 6", was it his intent to have this airspace between the motor and inner wall for air circulation, or is this space simply incidental? ? I am wondering if these housings can be slimmed down to a?more snug or custom fit with a reliance on conduction for cooling? Perhaps even filling the 1 ATM housing with non-compensated oil for the sole purpose of efficient conduction? ? I am also noting that the bow thruster industry likes to get the motor out of the props way with a 90 degree drive arrangement. This has interesting implications for?potentially more efficient and?downsized lateral thrusters. ? Some musings. ? Joe ? ? ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Thu Oct 10 14:11:12 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 11:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1381428672.45616.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> That's the beauty of home building for the hobbiest, aviation or marine.

That 3hp T-Rex can (as ugly as it is), starts looking quite sexy after a closer look!

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Thu Oct 10 14:19:36 2013 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 08:19:36 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling In-Reply-To: <7x5ilp0ckekoy5jb81a3k1fm.1381416706483@email.android.com> References: <7x5ilp0ckekoy5jb81a3k1fm.1381416706483@email.android.com> Message-ID: Agreed, salt water and threads don?t like each other. Rick From: swaters Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 4:52 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling I would agree with Jon. The spin on design isn't very good. -Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Jon Wallace wrote: My foremost advice would be not to use the "spin-on" design that George came up with for the propeller end of the can. I had a hell of a time getting them off after extended non-use, lots of penetrating oil and a three foot crowbar. I think a better design is the one that LakeDiver uses which pulls the two halves together via three equidistant bolts. See http://www.psubs.org/convention/2003/pics.cgi?pics/k350-2/PDR_0073.JPG -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/10/13, Joe Perkel wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Thursday, October 10, 2013, 2:45 AM Jon, I was intigued by the condition of the motors on the K-600 after thier long entombment. So as a result, I'm currently studying his design as well as off-the-shelf examples while looking at ways to incorporate homebuilding with more modern materials and components. Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Oct 10 16:37:52 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 16:37:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D0940FB984FC0B-D4C-101BA@Webmail-m109.sysops.aol.com> Scott, I believe with a bit of bracket work, we could modify a Nuyt-Screw to be the blender for a margarita mixer. A BIG margarita pitcher. Then we charge a hundred bucks apiece for drinks and pay for the thruster in...oh, a year or two. Vance -----Original Message----- From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Oct 10, 2013 10:58 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling Wow. Gotta love commercial submarine parts prices. Now, if it made margaritas while pushing the sub, it would be worth it! Haha Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Joe Perkel wrote: Scott, Like Vance says north of 10k. Quite frankly I'm more concerned about the price and availability of appropriately sized mag couplers in small lots. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: swaters ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling Sent: Thu, Oct 10, 2013 4:52:49 PM Joe, How much does one of those tecnadyne motors cost? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Joe Perkel wrote: Vance, I recognized immediately that very "off-the-shelf" utility. Still, it's an area of unfamiliarity so that's why the wary eye on seemingly innocuous details like that air gap. With that in mind and an interest in exploiting advantages of any potential modern improvements, the question then becomes,..What are the big dogs doing to get into those tall weeds? http://www.tecnadyne.com/cms/index.php/products/products-overview/thruster In looking at the tech specs for this product line the first question to come to my mind is why the stupendous range of voltages? (up to 330 vdc). The next several observations of interest then being: The use of high rpm low inertia motors coupled to high ratio planetary reduction drives The use of 6061 T6 AL housings The exclusive use of magnetic couplings The option to oil compensate the same dry units used in shallower depths The use of beautifully designed and fabricated Kort nozzles So in my letter to Santa for the stocking stuffer, ...this one @ 48 vdc,.... http://www.tecnadyne.com/cms/images/products/pdf/Model%202020%20Brochure.pdf The question then becomes, what can a home builder using off the shelf components and T-Rex fabrication techniques realistically hope to take from the big dogs? Joe Thanks for the detailed response which I've saved accordingly. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: vbra676539 at aol.com ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling Sent: Thu, Oct 10, 2013 12:26:55 PM Joe, We once machined a 3/4 hp 120 volt thruster motor and a piece of steel pipe to matching OD and ID. The idea was to make the unit smaller and perhaps help it run cooler. It ran hotter! The loss of air circulation in there was apparently more important than what would appear to be an improved heat sink. When I say hotter, I mean hotter than you could touch (even in the water). Hot enough, we decided, to fry the motor under heavy usage, which meant that it didn't work at all as far as we were concerned. The JSLs were the best example of on/off thrusters (no motor controls, only relays) I can think of, as they were used for main propulsion as well as for maneuvering. 1 1/4 hp/28 volt. The shaft end base plate of the motor was replaced with a machined aluminum section that serves as the bearing case on the motor side and as the housing for the planetary reduction gear on the prop side, and also as the mid-body of the thruster. The units are all aluminum (5000 series?). The motors fit fairly close in there, but with a distinctive air space. All the pieces were o-ring sealed (no welding) and held together with spring loaded flip clamps. >From front to back you get the forward end plate with bulkhead connector, the motor sleeve, then the gear case, followed by the sand cast back bullet that contains a flex-shaft coupling, bearings, and the shaft seal, then the prop and nozzle. The props were/are 14/14 inch square tipped four blades running in a machined syntactic foam nozzle and maybe, I say again, maybe, put out a hundred pounds of thrust. Not small, and probably not very efficient by modern standards, but they were to all intents and purposes bulletproof, save the occasional shaft seal failure. Cooling was never a problem with these things. They were designed and built in-house, and we carried a spare or two offshore. Each sub had eight of them (4 horizontal aft, 2 lateral fore and aft, and 2 vertical fore and aft). Not lightweight, but serviceable and (certainly by modern standards) cheap. George and I talked a good bit about the thrusters we used offshore and the ones he built. His were built from available stock material and, except for the custom order extended shafts, were off-the-shelf. In his view, they worked fine. He didn't care for trolling motors. Not enough torque. Something that Alex proved once again in the Keys by choking one down with a piece of soft coral. Something to keep in mind. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Wed, Oct 9, 2013 5:49 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling I am trying to understand George's design intent reference his 1 ATM SCH40 pipe housings and cooling. Where #8 SCH40 O.D. being 8.625" and your typical 2-3 HP DC enclosed fan cooled motor being roughly 6", was it his intent to have this airspace between the motor and inner wall for air circulation, or is this space simply incidental? I am wondering if these housings can be slimmed down to a more snug or custom fit with a reliance on conduction for cooling? Perhaps even filling the 1 ATM housing with non-compensated oil for the sole purpose of efficient conduction? I am also noting that the bow thruster industry likes to get the motor out of the props way with a 90 degree drive arrangement. This has interesting implications for potentially more efficient and downsized lateral thrusters. Some musings. Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Oct 10 16:38:40 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 16:38:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling In-Reply-To: <1381428672.45616.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381428672.45616.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0940FD68C5C35-D4C-101CE@Webmail-m109.sysops.aol.com> Got one in the shed. It ain't bad, all things considered. Especially the paid for part. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Thu, Oct 10, 2013 11:12 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling That's the beauty of home building for the hobbiest, aviation or marine. That 3hp T-Rex can (as ugly as it is), starts looking quite sexy after a closer look! Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: swaters ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling Sent: Thu, Oct 10, 2013 5:57:59 PM Wow. Gotta love commercial submarine parts prices. Now, if it made margaritas while pushing the sub, it would be worth it! Haha Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Joe Perkel wrote: Scott, Like Vance says north of 10k. Quite frankly I'm more concerned about the price and availability of appropriately sized mag couplers in small lots. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: swaters ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling Sent: Thu, Oct 10, 2013 4:52:49 PM Joe, How much does one of those tecnadyne motors cost? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Joe Perkel wrote: Vance, I recognized immediately that very "off-the-shelf" utility. Still, it's an area of unfamiliarity so that's why the wary eye on seemingly innocuous details like that air gap. With that in mind and an interest in exploiting advantages of any potential modern improvements, the question then becomes,..What are the big dogs doing to get into those tall weeds? http://www.tecnadyne.com/cms/index.php/products/products-overview/thruster In looking at the tech specs for this product line the first question to come to my mind is why the stupendous range of voltages? (up to 330 vdc). The next several observations of interest then being: The use of high rpm low inertia motors coupled to high ratio planetary reduction drives The use of 6061 T6 AL housings The exclusive use of magnetic couplings The option to oil compensate the same dry units used in shallower depths The use of beautifully designed and fabricated Kort nozzles So in my letter to Santa for the stocking stuffer, ...this one @ 48 vdc,.... http://www.tecnadyne.com/cms/images/products/pdf/Model%202020%20Brochure.pdf The question then becomes, what can a home builder using off the shelf components and T-Rex fabrication techniques realistically hope to take from the big dogs? Joe Thanks for the detailed response which I've saved accordingly. Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: vbra676539 at aol.com ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling Sent: Thu, Oct 10, 2013 12:26:55 PM Joe, We once machined a 3/4 hp 120 volt thruster motor and a piece of steel pipe to matching OD and ID. The idea was to make the unit smaller and perhaps help it run cooler. It ran hotter! The loss of air circulation in there was apparently more important than what would appear to be an improved heat sink. When I say hotter, I mean hotter than you could touch (even in the water). Hot enough, we decided, to fry the motor under heavy usage, which meant that it didn't work at all as far as we were concerned. The JSLs were the best example of on/off thrusters (no motor controls, only relays) I can think of, as they were used for main propulsion as well as for maneuvering. 1 1/4 hp/28 volt. The shaft end base plate of the motor was replaced with a machined aluminum section that serves as the bearing case on the motor side and as the housing for the planetary reduction gear on the prop side, and also as the mid-body of the thruster. The units are all aluminum (5000 series?). The motors fit fairly close in there, but with a distinctive air space. All the pieces were o-ring sealed (no welding) and held together with spring loaded flip clamps. >From front to back you get the forward end plate with bulkhead connector, the motor sleeve, then the gear case, followed by the sand cast back bullet that contains a flex-shaft coupling, bearings, and the shaft seal, then the prop and nozzle. The props were/are 14/14 inch square tipped four blades running in a machined syntactic foam nozzle and maybe, I say again, maybe, put out a hundred pounds of thrust. Not small, and probably not very efficient by modern standards, but they were to all intents and purposes bulletproof, save the occasional shaft seal failure. Cooling was never a problem with these things. They were designed and built in-house, and we carried a spare or two offshore. Each sub had eight of them (4 horizontal aft, 2 lateral fore and aft, and 2 vertical fore and aft). Not lightweight, but serviceable and (certainly by modern standards) cheap. George and I talked a good bit about the thrusters we used offshore and the ones he built. His were built from available stock material and, except for the custom order extended shafts, were off-the-shelf. In his view, they worked fine. He didn't care for trolling motors. Not enough torque. Something that Alex proved once again in the Keys by choking one down with a piece of soft coral. Something to keep in mind. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Wed, Oct 9, 2013 5:49 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling I am trying to understand George's design intent reference his 1 ATM SCH40 pipe housings and cooling. Where #8 SCH40 O.D. being 8.625" and your typical 2-3 HP DC enclosed fan cooled motor being roughly 6", was it his intent to have this airspace between the motor and inner wall for air circulation, or is this space simply incidental? I am wondering if these housings can be slimmed down to a more snug or custom fit with a reliance on conduction for cooling? Perhaps even filling the 1 ATM housing with non-compensated oil for the sole purpose of efficient conduction? I am also noting that the bow thruster industry likes to get the motor out of the props way with a 90 degree drive arrangement. This has interesting implications for potentially more efficient and downsized lateral thrusters. Some musings. Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Thu Oct 10 16:49:57 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 13:49:57 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] T-Rex Thrusters & Cooling Message-ID: <20131010134957.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.74cba23da9.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Thu Oct 10 21:34:49 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 15:34:49 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> Message-ID: <524000C1-3F4F-4DE7-A36F-EC80D5E6F380@yahoo.com> Rick, I'm emailing from Starbucks on Waikiki beach. You did say to come over for a conference. Florida is pretty close in temperature. I'm here for 6 days if you happen to be coming to this Island. Alan Sent from my iPad On 10/10/2013, at 7:45 AM, "Land N Sea" wrote: > I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesn?t have the dome so I hopefully won?t have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome but I was thinking about Emile?s clear acrylic fairing as an option when I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. > It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as Florida so I will probably be trying Phil?s idea of the frozen pouches vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my scrubber blowing against it. > We have a heck of a fetch here in the middle of the pacific for the wind/waves to build and a three foot wave is considered the norm but I think the good news is that the tops of the waves may be further apart here giving a better window to get in and out quickly. > Thanks > > Rick > > From: Alec Smyth > Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 4:13 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef > > Hi Rick, > > Well at least a 350 will be more resistant to it than a 250, since you have a taller coning tower. You may want to consider an Emile-style clear acrylic fairing around the coning tower to go even higher. Not sure if you are just catching up with email, but there's also this video: https://vimeo.com/76340636 > > > Best, > > Alec > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 9:38 PM, Land N Sea wrote: >> Thanks for the write up and very interesting to hear the things you have encountered! One thing that caught my attention was the fact that it was difficult if not impossible to enter the sub with the 3? chop!. I am building a K-350 on the big Island and we have no lakes to dive in only the ocean so I may have to address that somehow. >> >> best wishes >> >> Rick Patton >> >> From: Paul Kreemer >> Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2013 9:35 AM >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef >> >> Thanks Alec, that's a great writeup of your adventure! >> >> Paul >> >> On Oct 5, 2013 11:05 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: >>> Great tale. You should take up writing. Most enjoyable and I could picture the whole thing. >>> >>> Best wishes Hugh >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth >>> Sent: Sunday, 6 October 2013 6:18 p.m. >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef >>> >>> >>> >>> In Islamorada for the 2013 PSUBS convention, we tried a few days ago to dive the reefs off the Atlantic side of the island. After towing Snoopy out to the dive site, I had to call off the dive because a three foot chop made it unsafe to board. I made it aboard myself, but water was splashing over the hatch land, and with the weight of a second person it would have been touch and go. When their hatches are open, these little boats are like holes in the water just waiting to be filled up by the next wave. Three foot waves are not large, and they are entirely normal a few miles from shore, but they are just beyond practical conditions for Snoopy. >>> >>> For our second attempt on the reefs we changed tactics, deciding to board at the boat ramp and make the tow under a closed hatch. This would guarantee a dive regardless of wave conditions, but also introduce a new challenge. With a temperature of 89 degrees above the surface and 86 degrees below it, the problem was now how to avoid getting cooked during the tow. There was hardly a cloud in the sky, and Snoopy?s big acrylic dome hatch transforms her cabin into a greenhouse. The pilot, with his head in the middle of the dome, feels that he is under a giant magnifying glass. Hot air rises. >>> >>> Steve McQueen and I boarded at Harry Harris state park at 12:30, after having spent the morning at the local school giving four hundred local children a tour of the sub. Snoopy?s payload can be maximized by adding buoyancy spheres. We installed every available one, and used their buoyancy to load twenty pounds of ice inside the cabin. Our support diver, Scott Waters, attached a white hotel towel over the dome with bungee cord, and then tied off the tow line. We set out, towed by Doug Suhr in his whaler, an ideal surface support vessel. He had fashioned a custom wooden frame that allowed towing from a point just aft of midships. That is where tugs and trawlers attach their tow lines, and it allowed the whaler to retain good control, whereas in the past I had found Snoopy often turned around the towboat when towed from the transom. >>> >>> The tow was unexpectedly interesting, because of the bottom rushing by and constantly changing scenery. Most of the time it would be sand and sea grass, but there were always changes and it would at times become more rocky, or turn to pure sand, and drop away or rise up to just a couple of feet from us. We rushed past or right through clouds of jellies. As Steve put it, it felt like an arcade game. >>> >>> I have no idea how hot it was inside the sub, but it was surely an outrageous number. Prior to departure we had applied detergent to the viewports to prevent them from fogging. That succeeded on the forward viewport, but with that single exception every other surface in the boat streamed water profusely. Every ten minutes or so I would pick up a rapidly dwindling bag of ice and give it a hug, rest it on the back of my neck, or wear it as a hat. I went through five bottles of drinking water. >>> >>> Between the rolling of the boat, and the heat and humidity, I found myself getting a bit woozy. It was not sea sickness so much as a feeling of light-headedness, so we tried increasing the oxygen concentration in the cabin to counteract it. Between us we had been consuming ? liters of oxygen per minute, with the analyzer readings hovering around 19 percent and a fraction. We bumped up the flow to 4 liters per minute until the oxygen concentration reached 23 percent, a limit above which the cabin atmosphere would have become a fire hazard. That is only two percent above normal, but it made us both feel perceptibly better. >>> >>> We arrived at the dive site two hours after closing the hatch, and rather incredibly only four minutes after our target time of low tide. The twenty pounds of ice had all melted. Our normal tow speed is three knots, and the distance was only four miles, but some ?hatch closed? time was spent getting underway, some was spent on a stop to re-position the towel when it was displaced by waves washing over the dome, and some was spent on the final locating of the site. >>> >>> Doug anchored the whaler and Scott swam over to remove our towel sunshade, and to attach a video camera to the sub. In the previous few days the heat and humidity had already led to the failure of a depth sounder and a compass, so I had decided not to risk the good camera inside the sub. In tropical climates at least, the cabin is a very dangerous place for electronics. >>> >>> We initiated our dive and tested communications as soon as the transducer went under water. The gear worked, yet the communications were very faint. Snoopy?s transducers are mounted above the hull and immediately behind the conning tower. Being just beneath the surface and pointed in the direction of the whaler, the transducer?s line of sight to the boat was blocked by the conning tower. Once at depth the communications were loud and clear. >>> >>> The reef was unfortunately not healthy, as all reefs in this part of the world, yet it was absolutely fantastic compared to the lakes Snoopy normally dives in. There were large sponges, fish, and interesting terrain. In particular, we found ?streets? of sand running between raised mounds of coral on either side, reminiscent of scenes in the movie 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Visibility was about fifty feet. >>> >>> In Snoopy, almost all the viewing underwater is done through the bow viewport. Through the dome it is very hard to see the bottom unless diving alongside a wall or quite high terrain, and even in that scenario optical distortion causes features to appear very small and far off. Nonetheless, while I could hardly see the bottom through the dome, I did see a column of bubbles rising in the distance and steered Snoopy in their direction. It was Scott, who had found a lost anchor. He tied it to Snoopy?s pickup arm, and we blew some air into the ballast tanks and delivered it to the boat. >>> >>> We continued wandering the bottom, sometimes letting the current waft us along sideways and other times using the stern thruster to follow the ?sand roads?. These gradually led into deeper water, and we followed them hoping for the continental shelf drop-off that is only a short distance from Pickles reef. We started at thirty feet, and followed these paths down to a little over fifty feet, but unfortunately did not make it as far as the drop-off. >>> >>> Snoopy was ballasted ever so slightly buoyant, perhaps just a pound or two. One side thruster was locked in a straight down position, the other slightly inclined to counter the rotation induced by the props. Indeed the props only needed to turn very slowly to maintain depth, as if turned by hand instead of by a motor. To slowly rise I would shut them off, or I would speed them up to descend. The side thruster throttle acted as a ?depth knob?, allowing depth to be controlled with an accuracy of a couple of inches. >>> >>> Laying prone and looking out of the forward viewport, Steve had a good view of upcoming terrain. He acted as observer, calling out details about what lay ahead and asking for port or starboard headings and altitude adjustments. One tries to stay close to the bottom in order to see it better, but not touch anything in order to avoid damaging the reef. He took a turn at the controls as well, which in Snoopy does not mean that we changed places, but rather that we passed the remote controller between us. >>> >>> At one point we lost communications with the surface. We were to learn later that the whaler had re-positioned to follow us, and in doing so ran over its transducer cable, severing it and losing the transducer. The whaler could have tracked us by our acoustic pinger, but instead simply followed the bubbles of our support divers, who were following us by sight in the clear water. >>> >>> After an hour and a half of contented wandering, we suddenly sensed that the stern thruster had lost power. A moment later we both noticed a smell of burning. I turned off power to the stern thruster speed control, looked up to ensure we were not under the whaler, and immediately initiated a ballast blow, which gives a much faster rate of ascent than the thrusters. We could have continued maneuvering on side thrusters only, but it seemed prudent to call the dive. Afterwards I would discover that a little piece of fan coral had been sucked in by the stern thruster, and wedged between the propeller and its shroud. It was very tough material, and it locked up the thruster causing its speed controller to burn out. Although the speed controllers are supposed to have over-current protection, I will be adding breakers in the near future. >>> >>> One more surprise awaited us during the tow back to shore. After about an hour of towing, we had reached a spot at which the waves were lower, and we were on the radio to the whaler planning to pause the tow and transfer to her. But just then there was suddenly a very loud pop in the cabin, and my immediate thought was of a ruptured high pressure line. It was followed a second later by another equally loud pop. I was puzzled by the fact my ears were not registering any increase in cabin pressure, when I saw Steve?s life preserver inflating. These life preservers are of the type that resembles suspenders, inflated by a CO2 cartridge which Steve?s movement had accidentally triggered. For a moment it looked like his PFD might strangle him in the tight space, but he managed to wriggle out of it. I?ll be looking at some way to secure the rip cord on these PFDs, to make accidental deployment a little less likely. There is precious little space in Snoopy under normal conditions, but with an inflated PFD the lack of space becomes almost comical. >>> >>> Finally we came aboard the whaler. Being in the tower, I stowed my seat, climbed out, and closed the hatch quickly behind me. This allowed Steve to reposition himself into the tower without fear of being swamped while doing so. The hatch opened again, Steve jumped out, and we were both on deck. It had been five hours since we closed the hatch. >>> >>> It was only once back on the whaler I saw Steve was quite hungry. It was six in the evening, and he had avoided eating anything all day, anticipating that it would be a long dive and knowing that Snoopy has no head. Now that is dedication! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8880 (20131005) __________ >>> >>> >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8880 (20131005) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piolenc at archivale.com Thu Oct 10 22:15:44 2013 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 10:15:44 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> Message-ID: <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't have a sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of thought. My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, the power penalty would be minimal. Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. Marc de Piolenc On 10/11/2013 1:45 AM, Land N Sea wrote: > I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat > and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I > did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little > taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesn?t have the dome so I > hopefully won?t have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome > but I was thinking about Emile?s clear acrylic fairing as an option when > I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. > It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as > Florida so I will probably be trying Phil?s idea of the frozen pouches > vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my > scrubber blowing against it. -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Thu Oct 10 23:20:33 2013 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 20:20:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1381461633.31436.YahooMailBasic@web140905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Marc, I don't understand how renewal of the ambient tropic air will help with environmental comfort to the point of not requiring some kind of air conditioning. Jon -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/10/13, Marc de Piolenc wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Date: Thursday, October 10, 2013, 10:15 PM I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't have a sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of thought. My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, the power penalty would be minimal. Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. Marc de Piolenc From piolenc at archivale.com Thu Oct 10 23:40:23 2013 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 11:40:23 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <1381461633.31436.YahooMailBasic@web140905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381461633.31436.YahooMailBasic@web140905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52577327.60507@archivale.com> I can tolerate the air temperature outside - I've lived here fifteen years. A confined space, on the other hand, tends to reach higher temperatures. Constant air exchange with the outside essentially maintains outside conditions - which I can tolerate - inside. Good enough for me. For a visitor newly arrived from Alaska it might not do. If the air conditioning on my van is on the fritz, I just open a couple of windows. God help me if BOTH the window winder mechanisms AND the aircon are broken! Marc On 10/11/2013 11:20 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > Hi Marc, > > I don't understand how renewal of the ambient tropic air will help with environmental comfort to the point of not requiring some kind of air conditioning. > > Jon > > > -------------------------------------------- > On Thu, 10/10/13, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Date: Thursday, October 10, 2013, 10:15 PM > > I've been following this discussion > with great interest. I don't have a sub yet, but I do live > in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current handy to > where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near > air temperature. As you might expect, I've given this > problem a lot of thought. > > My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will > have to make it more autonomous than is the rule on this > list. Specifically, it will need a combustion engine to > ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, and to maintain > comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while > doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an > air conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, > but then I realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into > the cabin, and have the diesel draw air from the cabin, I > get continuous renewal of the air in the cabin without the > cost, power burden and safety problems of running a Rankine > cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that I've > retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure > means of preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into > the snorkel (I can't quite understand how naval submarines > manage to combine both functions in one mast), but that > might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust flush with > the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming > in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and > the snort would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch > to be kept closed, the power penalty would be minimal. > > Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked > out. Naval submarines have very complex arrangements for > this, and that complexity must be tolerated for a good > reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do it that still > protects the fuel from contamination and me from > asphyxiation. > > Marc de Piolenc > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 08:03:51 2013 From: jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com (greg cottrell) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 05:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust In-Reply-To: <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1381493031.12104.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Captain Kittredge built a couple of diesel subs that worked very well. In his design, exhaust went straight down into the water at the bottom of the hull. The exhaust exit was directly behind what looked like a "v" shaped steel skeg that created a low pressure area when the sub was moving forward. The low pressure area reduced back pressure on the exhaust. ? Incidentally, one of George's customers bought a diesel sub from him but took it down one time without closing the exhaust valve. Water entered one of the cylinders in the diesel and bent either the crank or the rods when he tried to start the engine. ? Greg ? ? ? ________________________________ From: Marc de Piolenc To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't have a sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of thought. My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, the power penalty would be minimal. Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. Marc de Piolenc On 10/11/2013 1:45 AM, Land N Sea wrote: > I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat > and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I > did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little > taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesn?t have the dome so I > hopefully won?t have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome > but I was thinking about Emile?s clear acrylic fairing as an option when > I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. > It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as > Florida so I will probably be trying Phil?s idea of the frozen pouches > vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my > scrubber blowing against it. -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Fri Oct 11 09:07:28 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 14:07:28 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust In-Reply-To: <1381493031.12104.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381493031.12104.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Greg\All, Does anyone have any more info on Georges diesel subs? I have his book and i dont recall any mention of them, though i could be mistaken, its a while since i read it. I'd just be interested to see more info. Were they K type designs? Or something else? Thanks james On 11 October 2013 13:03, greg cottrell wrote: > Captain Kittredge built a couple of diesel subs that worked very well. > In his design, exhaust went straight down into the water at the bottom of > the hull. The exhaust exit was directly behind what looked like a "v" > shaped steel skeg that created a low pressure area when the sub was > moving forward. The low pressure area reduced back pressure on the exhaust. > > Incidentally, one of George's customers bought a diesel sub from him but > took it down one time without closing the exhaust valve. Water entered one > of the cylinders in the diesel and bent either the crank or the rods when > he tried to start the engine. > > Greg > > > > *From:* Marc de Piolenc > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Thursday, October 10, 2013 10:15 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef > > I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't > have a > sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold > current > handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air > temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of > thought. > > My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make > it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will > need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, > and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while > doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air > conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I > realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have > the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air > in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of > running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution > that > I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means > of > preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't > > quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions > in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust > flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming > in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort > would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, > the power penalty would be minimal. > > Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval > submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity > must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do > it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from > asphyxiation. > > Marc de Piolenc > > On 10/11/2013 1:45 AM, Land N Sea wrote: > > I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat > > and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I > > did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little > > taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesn?t have the dome so I > > hopefully won?t have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome > > but I was thinking about Emile?s clear acrylic fairing as an option when > > I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. > > It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as > > Florida so I will probably be trying Phil?s idea of the frozen pouches > > vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my > > scrubber blowing against it. > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Fri Oct 11 11:39:20 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 11:39:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust In-Reply-To: References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381493031.12104.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D094AF2E61A2BB-2174-15B6C@webmail-m175.sysops.aol.com> James, I think the diesel subs were mentioned in passing in George's autobiography, rather than in detail. They were K-subs, one 500-foot capable that went to Alaska for a recently retired super tanker Captain. He had another one (the third?) unfinished sitting in the weeds by the shop when I was last there which I half remember was a K-250. All I really remember about that one is that the aft elliptical head was flanged and bolted to the hull cylinder for access to the diesel, and had the underwater exhaust like a WW II sub and a snorkel for the engine. That was going to be the Skipper's next personal sub, but he got sidetracked when he reacquired the K-600. He never finished the diesel sub that I know of, and I don't have any idea what happened to it in any case. I do know that the family house and archives were donated to the Owl's Head township or the county historical society or somebody like that, and that something or other is on display up there. No idea where, but you might call the South Thomaston library, which is open part time and just down the street from the Kittredge house. They might know something about what went where, or provide a clue you could follow. I don't know what they ended up doing with the house itself, either. Maybe it's a museum now, too. There is also a very nice transportation museum just up the road from George's house. (it might, in fact, be called the Owl's Head Transportation Museum, or something similar). Who knows? That little sub might have been painted up and put on display as a reminder of one of South Thomaston's most interesting and productive characters. Be a shame if it wasn't. And if the diesel sub modifications could be unearthed, I'm sure they would be a welcome addition to the psubbers archives. There will be prints, somewhere. George did a lot of them himself, but surely they were saved, and having been saved, might be rescued from obscurity. If it costs a bit, let me know. I'll chip in just for general interest, and perhaps others would, too. Also, Jon had some of the last dealings up there, and might have an idea or two about how you (or we) could track things down. Vance -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 6:10 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust Hi Greg\All, Does anyone have any more info on Georges diesel subs? I have his book and i dont recall any mention of them, though i could be mistaken, its a while since i read it. I'd just be interested to see more info. Were they K type designs? Or something else? Thanks james On 11 October 2013 13:03, greg cottrell wrote: Captain Kittredge built a couple of diesel subs that worked very well. In his design, exhaust went straight down into the water at the bottom of the hull. The exhaust exit was directly behind what looked like a "v" shaped steel skeg that created a low pressure area when the sub was moving forward. The low pressure area reduced back pressure on the exhaust. Incidentally, one of George's customers bought a diesel sub from him but took it down one time without closing the exhaust valve. Water entered one of the cylinders in the diesel and bent either the crank or the rods when he tried to start the engine. Greg From: Marc de Piolenc To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't have a sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of thought. My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, the power penalty would be minimal. Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. Marc de Piolenc On 10/11/2013 1:45 AM, Land N Sea wrote: > I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat > and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I > did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little > taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesn?t have the dome so I > hopefully won?t have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome > but I was thinking about Emile?s clear acrylic fairing as an option when > I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. > It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as > Florida so I will probably be trying Phil?s idea of the frozen pouches > vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my > scrubber blowing against it. -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Oct 11 12:58:00 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 09:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1381510680.87759.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Marc, I would think you will need an ac unit on your engine because the engine will generate some heat even with a water cooled manifold.? If you run the exhaust stack inside the air stack it will pre heat the air coming into the engine.? Pre heated air is good in northern latitudes but bad in the tropics.? The heated air will kill your fuel efficiency.? I also would not suck the combustion air through the hull, the exhaust will find its way in.? I would do a short air stack and a tall folding exhaust stack.???A diesel engine in a psub is a great idea. Hank ? From: Marc de Piolenc To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 8:15:44 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't have a sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of thought. My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, the power penalty would be minimal. Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. Marc de Piolenc On 10/11/2013 1:45 AM, Land N Sea wrote: > I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat > and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I > did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little > taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesn?t have the dome so I > hopefully won?t have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome > but I was thinking about Emile?s clear acrylic fairing as an option when > I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. > It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as > Florida so I will probably be trying Phil?s idea of the frozen pouches > vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my > scrubber blowing against it. -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Fri Oct 11 13:32:04 2013 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 07:32:04 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <524000C1-3F4F-4DE7-A36F-EC80D5E6F380@yahoo.com> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <524000C1-3F4F-4DE7-A36F-EC80D5E6F380@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hey Alan, I am on the Big Island (southern most) and do get over there from time to time to look at jobs but won?t be over there in the near future. Inter Island air fair has gone off the charts cuz they have you by the you know what. If you would feel like swinging by to see this Island on your way back, would love to meet you and show you my project. That offer extends to anyone in the group. We have a spare guest room and could probably talk the wife into anyone staying a few days but longer than that you might have to get a room somewhere as she is a little weird about that, unlike myself. Got to keep the wife happy..... Have a nice time in Waikiki. Aloha Rick From: Alan Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 3:34 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Rick, I'm emailing from Starbucks on Waikiki beach. You did say to come over for a conference. Florida is pretty close in temperature. I'm here for 6 days if you happen to be coming to this Island. Alan Sent from my iPad On 10/10/2013, at 7:45 AM, "Land N Sea" wrote: I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesn?t have the dome so I hopefully won?t have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome but I was thinking about Emile?s clear acrylic fairing as an option when I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as Florida so I will probably be trying Phil?s idea of the frozen pouches vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my scrubber blowing against it. We have a heck of a fetch here in the middle of the pacific for the wind/waves to build and a three foot wave is considered the norm but I think the good news is that the tops of the waves may be further apart here giving a better window to get in and out quickly. Thanks Rick From: Alec Smyth Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 4:13 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Hi Rick, Well at least a 350 will be more resistant to it than a 250, since you have a taller coning tower. You may want to consider an Emile-style clear acrylic fairing around the coning tower to go even higher. Not sure if you are just catching up with email, but there's also this video: https://vimeo.com/76340636 Best, Alec On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 9:38 PM, Land N Sea wrote: Thanks for the write up and very interesting to hear the things you have encountered! One thing that caught my attention was the fact that it was difficult if not impossible to enter the sub with the 3? chop!. I am building a K-350 on the big Island and we have no lakes to dive in only the ocean so I may have to address that somehow. best wishes Rick Patton From: Paul Kreemer Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2013 9:35 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Thanks Alec, that's a great writeup of your adventure! Paul On Oct 5, 2013 11:05 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Great tale. You should take up writing. Most enjoyable and I could picture the whole thing. Best wishes Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth Sent: Sunday, 6 October 2013 6:18 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In Islamorada for the 2013 PSUBS convention, we tried a few days ago to dive the reefs off the Atlantic side of the island. After towing Snoopy out to the dive site, I had to call off the dive because a three foot chop made it unsafe to board. I made it aboard myself, but water was splashing over the hatch land, and with the weight of a second person it would have been touch and go. When their hatches are open, these little boats are like holes in the water just waiting to be filled up by the next wave. Three foot waves are not large, and they are entirely normal a few miles from shore, but they are just beyond practical conditions for Snoopy. For our second attempt on the reefs we changed tactics, deciding to board at the boat ramp and make the tow under a closed hatch. This would guarantee a dive regardless of wave conditions, but also introduce a new challenge. With a temperature of 89 degrees above the surface and 86 degrees below it, the problem was now how to avoid getting cooked during the tow. There was hardly a cloud in the sky, and Snoopy?s big acrylic dome hatch transforms her cabin into a greenhouse. The pilot, with his head in the middle of the dome, feels that he is under a giant magnifying glass. Hot air rises. Steve McQueen and I boarded at Harry Harris state park at 12:30, after having spent the morning at the local school giving four hundred local children a tour of the sub. Snoopy?s payload can be maximized by adding buoyancy spheres. We installed every available one, and used their buoyancy to load twenty pounds of ice inside the cabin. Our support diver, Scott Waters, attached a white hotel towel over the dome with bungee cord, and then tied off the tow line. We set out, towed by Doug Suhr in his whaler, an ideal surface support vessel. He had fashioned a custom wooden frame that allowed towing from a point just aft of midships. That is where tugs and trawlers attach their tow lines, and it allowed the whaler to retain good control, whereas in the past I had found Snoopy often turned around the towboat when towed from the transom. The tow was unexpectedly interesting, because of the bottom rushing by and constantly changing scenery. Most of the time it would be sand and sea grass, but there were always changes and it would at times become more rocky, or turn to pure sand, and drop away or rise up to just a couple of feet from us. We rushed past or right through clouds of jellies. As Steve put it, it felt like an arcade game. I have no idea how hot it was inside the sub, but it was surely an outrageous number. Prior to departure we had applied detergent to the viewports to prevent them from fogging. That succeeded on the forward viewport, but with that single exception every other surface in the boat streamed water profusely. Every ten minutes or so I would pick up a rapidly dwindling bag of ice and give it a hug, rest it on the back of my neck, or wear it as a hat. I went through five bottles of drinking water. Between the rolling of the boat, and the heat and humidity, I found myself getting a bit woozy. It was not sea sickness so much as a feeling of light-headedness, so we tried increasing the oxygen concentration in the cabin to counteract it. Between us we had been consuming ? liters of oxygen per minute, with the analyzer readings hovering around 19 percent and a fraction. We bumped up the flow to 4 liters per minute until the oxygen concentration reached 23 percent, a limit above which the cabin atmosphere would have become a fire hazard. That is only two percent above normal, but it made us both feel perceptibly better. We arrived at the dive site two hours after closing the hatch, and rather incredibly only four minutes after our target time of low tide. The twenty pounds of ice had all melted. Our normal tow speed is three knots, and the distance was only four miles, but some ?hatch closed? time was spent getting underway, some was spent on a stop to re-position the towel when it was displaced by waves washing over the dome, and some was spent on the final locating of the site. Doug anchored the whaler and Scott swam over to remove our towel sunshade, and to attach a video camera to the sub. In the previous few days the heat and humidity had already led to the failure of a depth sounder and a compass, so I had decided not to risk the good camera inside the sub. In tropical climates at least, the cabin is a very dangerous place for electronics. We initiated our dive and tested communications as soon as the transducer went under water. The gear worked, yet the communications were very faint. Snoopy?s transducers are mounted above the hull and immediately behind the conning tower. Being just beneath the surface and pointed in the direction of the whaler, the transducer?s line of sight to the boat was blocked by the conning tower. Once at depth the communications were loud and clear. The reef was unfortunately not healthy, as all reefs in this part of the world, yet it was absolutely fantastic compared to the lakes Snoopy normally dives in. There were large sponges, fish, and interesting terrain. In particular, we found ?streets? of sand running between raised mounds of coral on either side, reminiscent of scenes in the movie 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Visibility was about fifty feet. In Snoopy, almost all the viewing underwater is done through the bow viewport. Through the dome it is very hard to see the bottom unless diving alongside a wall or quite high terrain, and even in that scenario optical distortion causes features to appear very small and far off. Nonetheless, while I could hardly see the bottom through the dome, I did see a column of bubbles rising in the distance and steered Snoopy in their direction. It was Scott, who had found a lost anchor. He tied it to Snoopy?s pickup arm, and we blew some air into the ballast tanks and delivered it to the boat. We continued wandering the bottom, sometimes letting the current waft us along sideways and other times using the stern thruster to follow the ?sand roads?. These gradually led into deeper water, and we followed them hoping for the continental shelf drop-off that is only a short distance from Pickles reef. We started at thirty feet, and followed these paths down to a little over fifty feet, but unfortunately did not make it as far as the drop-off. Snoopy was ballasted ever so slightly buoyant, perhaps just a pound or two. One side thruster was locked in a straight down position, the other slightly inclined to counter the rotation induced by the props. Indeed the props only needed to turn very slowly to maintain depth, as if turned by hand instead of by a motor. To slowly rise I would shut them off, or I would speed them up to descend. The side thruster throttle acted as a ?depth knob?, allowing depth to be controlled with an accuracy of a couple of inches. Laying prone and looking out of the forward viewport, Steve had a good view of upcoming terrain. He acted as observer, calling out details about what lay ahead and asking for port or starboard headings and altitude adjustments. One tries to stay close to the bottom in order to see it better, but not touch anything in order to avoid damaging the reef. He took a turn at the controls as well, which in Snoopy does not mean that we changed places, but rather that we passed the remote controller between us. At one point we lost communications with the surface. We were to learn later that the whaler had re-positioned to follow us, and in doing so ran over its transducer cable, severing it and losing the transducer. The whaler could have tracked us by our acoustic pinger, but instead simply followed the bubbles of our support divers, who were following us by sight in the clear water. After an hour and a half of contented wandering, we suddenly sensed that the stern thruster had lost power. A moment later we both noticed a smell of burning. I turned off power to the stern thruster speed control, looked up to ensure we were not under the whaler, and immediately initiated a ballast blow, which gives a much faster rate of ascent than the thrusters. We could have continued maneuvering on side thrusters only, but it seemed prudent to call the dive. Afterwards I would discover that a little piece of fan coral had been sucked in by the stern thruster, and wedged between the propeller and its shroud. It was very tough material, and it locked up the thruster causing its speed controller to burn out. Although the speed controllers are supposed to have over-current protection, I will be adding breakers in the near future. One more surprise awaited us during the tow back to shore. After about an hour of towing, we had reached a spot at which the waves were lower, and we were on the radio to the whaler planning to pause the tow and transfer to her. But just then there was suddenly a very loud pop in the cabin, and my immediate thought was of a ruptured high pressure line. It was followed a second later by another equally loud pop. I was puzzled by the fact my ears were not registering any increase in cabin pressure, when I saw Steve?s life preserver inflating. These life preservers are of the type that resembles suspenders, inflated by a CO2 cartridge which Steve?s movement had accidentally triggered. For a moment it looked like his PFD might strangle him in the tight space, but he managed to wriggle out of it. I?ll be looking at some way to secure the rip cord on these PFDs, to make accidental deployment a little less likely. There is precious little space in Snoopy under normal conditions, but with an inflated PFD the lack of space becomes almost comical. Finally we came aboard the whaler. Being in the tower, I stowed my seat, climbed out, and closed the hatch quickly behind me. This allowed Steve to reposition himself into the tower without fear of being swamped while doing so. The hatch opened again, Steve jumped out, and we were both on deck. It had been five hours since we closed the hatch. It was only once back on the whaler I saw Steve was quite hungry. It was six in the evening, and he had avoided eating anything all day, anticipating that it would be a long dive and knowing that Snoopy has no head. Now that is dedication! Cheers, Alec __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8880 (20131005) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8880 (20131005) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Fri Oct 11 13:33:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 11 Oct 2013 17:33 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust In-Reply-To: <1381493031.12104.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381493031.12104.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1VUgbd-1B4KkS0@fwd10.t-online.de> Hi Marc, before I response in detail, which size should the sub have? And which range? And which kind of wave high, wave length and weather you want to survife on the surface? Any concept sketch? Do you like to snorckel with the sub? Euronaut has more problems with the short medium high wave in the baltic than with the high but long waves in the north sea. Bad weather in the north sea lift the hole boat before the wave reach the sail, but in the Baltic the waves are shorter and did mot lift the boat so much - as result the sail goes very wet. Like in the movie "Das Boot" Short wave in the baltic: http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/operational/IMG_8705.jpg Here the over waterline exhaust of Euronaut in operation. The funny sound comes from a wave flap close to the end of the exhaust which goes up and down at idlle speed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT7i05s92ak Cooling is also something you should have in mind. And noise.. And.. vbr Carsten From: Marc de Piolenc To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't have a sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of thought. My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, the power penalty would be minimal. Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. Marc de Piolenc -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Fri Oct 11 13:56:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 11 Oct 2013 17:56 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <1381510680.87759.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381510680.87759.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1VUgxh-3vjvkm0@fwd14.t-online.de> Breathing air for the diesel engine from inside the cabin is very common to clean the cabin air. Air goes in the cabin via the open hatch. It also remove the little leaks from the exhaust and the oil dust. And works very well on the surface. In Euronaut the diesel air inlet is from the battery bilge compartment to vent also the battery gases during charing them on the surface run. The problem in real is more : If you stop the diesel for diving and close the hatch to dive and run electric. The inside goes pretty hot and dusty because you have some big block of hot metal (engine, gear , compressor etc) in you engine chamber.. Nice here in norther europe during the winter period.. Will not imagine what it means in the caribiean during summer. vbr Carsten DSO (- Diesel Submarine Operator- ) "hank pronk" schrieb: Marc, I would think you will need an ac unit on your engine because the engine will generate some heat even with a water cooled manifold. If you run the exhaust stack inside the air stack it will pre heat the air coming into the engine. Pre heated air is good in northern latitudes but bad in the tropics. The heated air will kill your fuel efficiency. I also would not suck the combustion air through the hull, the exhaust will find its way in. I would do a short air stack and a tall folding exhaust stack. A diesel engine in a psub is a great idea. Hank From: Marc de Piolenc To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 8:15:44 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't have a sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of thought. My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, the power penalty would be minimal. Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. Marc de Piolenc On 10/11/2013 1:45 AM, Land N Sea wrote: > I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat > and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I > did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little > taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesnt have the dome so I > hopefully wont have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome > but I was thinking about Emiles clear acrylic fairing as an option when > I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. > It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as > Florida so I will probably be trying Phils idea of the frozen pouches > vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my > scrubber blowing against it. -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Oct 11 14:31:52 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 11:31:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <1VUgxh-3vjvkm0@fwd14.t-online.de> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381510680.87759.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VUgxh-3vjvkm0@fwd14.t-online.de> Message-ID: <1381516312.78114.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Carsten, I would imagine if you are running down wind and the wind is faster than the boat, the exhaust may get sucked into the sub.? I guess if a coarse correction is an option that would solve the problem.? I think a small psub might not out run the wind. Hank From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 11:56:00 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Breathing air for the diesel engine from inside?the cabin is?very common to clean?the cabin air. Air goes in the cabin via the open hatch. It also remove the little leaks from the exhaust and the oil dust. And works very well on the surface.?? In Euronaut the diesel air inlet is from the battery bilge compartment to vent also the battery gases during charing them on the surface run. The problem in real is more : If you stop the diesel for diving and close the hatch to dive and run electric. The inside goes pretty hot and dusty because you have some?big block of hot metal (engine, gear , compressor etc)? in you engine chamber..? Nice here in norther europe during the winter period..? Will not imagine what it means in the caribiean during summer. vbr Carsten DSO? (- Diesel Submarine Operator-?) "hank pronk" schrieb: Marc, >I would think you will need an ac unit on your engine because the engine will generate some heat even with a water cooled manifold.? If you run the exhaust stack inside the air stack it will pre heat the air coming into the engine.? Pre heated air is good in northern latitudes but bad in the tropics.? The heated air will kill your fuel efficiency.? I also would not suck the combustion air through the hull, the exhaust will find its way in.? I would do a short air stack and a tall folding exhaust stack.???A diesel engine in a psub is a great idea. >Hank >? > > >From: Marc de Piolenc >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 8:15:44 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef > > >I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't have a >sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current >handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air >temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of thought. > >My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make >it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will >need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, >and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while >doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air >conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I >realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have >the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air >in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of >running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that >I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of >preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't >quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions >in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust >flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming >in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort >would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, >the power penalty would be minimal. > >Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval >submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity >must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do >it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. > >Marc de Piolenc > >On 10/11/2013 1:45 AM, Land N Sea wrote: >> I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat >> and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I >> did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little >> taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesnt have the dome so I >> hopefully wont have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome >> but I was thinking about Emiles clear acrylic fairing as an option when >> I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. >> It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as >> Florida so I will probably be trying Phils idea of the frozen pouches >> vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my >> scrubber blowing against it. >-- >Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >? -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Fri Oct 11 14:51:54 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 14:51:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <1381516312.78114.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381510680.87759.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VUgxh-3vjvkm0@fwd14.t-online.de> <1381516312.78114.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D094CA168E8B40-1840-185C1@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> There isn't enough freeboard to do this with a k--thus the snorkel. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 11:32 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Carsten, I would imagine if you are running down wind and the wind is faster than the boat, the exhaust may get sucked into the sub. I guess if a coarse correction is an option that would solve the problem. I think a small psub might not out run the wind. Hank From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 11:56:00 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Breathing air for the diesel engine from inside the cabin is very common to clean the cabin air. Air goes in the cabin via the open hatch. It also remove the little leaks from the exhaust and the oil dust. And works very well on the surface. In Euronaut the diesel air inlet is from the battery bilge compartment to vent also the battery gases during charing them on the surface run. The problem in real is more : If you stop the diesel for diving and close the hatch to dive and run electric. The inside goes pretty hot and dusty because you have some big block of hot metal (engine, gear , compressor etc) in you engine chamber.. Nice here in norther europe during the winter period.. Will not imagine what it means in the caribiean during summer. vbr Carsten DSO (- Diesel Submarine Operator- ) "hank pronk" schrieb: Marc, I would think you will need an ac unit on your engine because the engine will generate some heat even with a water cooled manifold. If you run the exhaust stack inside the air stack it will pre heat the air coming into the engine. Pre heated air is good in northern latitudes but bad in the tropics. The heated air will kill your fuel efficiency. I also would not suck the combustion air through the hull, the exhaust will find its way in. I would do a short air stack and a tall folding exhaust stack. A diesel engine in a psub is a great idea. Hank From: Marc de Piolenc To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 8:15:44 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't have a sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of thought. My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, the power penalty would be minimal. Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. Marc de Piolenc On 10/11/2013 1:45 AM, Land N Sea wrote: > I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat > and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I > did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little > taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesnt have the dome so I > hopefully wont have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome > but I was thinking about Emiles clear acrylic fairing as an option when > I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. > It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as > Florida so I will probably be trying Phils idea of the frozen pouches > vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my > scrubber blowing against it. -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Oct 11 15:03:09 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 12:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <8D094CA168E8B40-1840-185C1@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381510680.87759.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VUgxh-3vjvkm0@fwd14.t-online.de> <1381516312.78114.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D094CA168E8B40-1840-185C1@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1381518189.98605.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, I just permanently ?installed the first ?component back into Gamma, it is one of the 200amp fuses all polished up.? :-) Hank From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 12:51:54 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef There isn't enough freeboard to do this with a k--thus the snorkel. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 11:32 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Carsten, I would imagine if you are running down wind and the wind is faster than the boat, the exhaust may get sucked into the sub.? I guess if a coarse correction is an option that would solve the problem.? I think a small psub might not out run the wind. Hank From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 11:56:00 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Breathing air for the diesel engine from inside?the cabin is?very common to clean?the cabin air. Air goes in the cabin via the open hatch. It also remove the little leaks from the exhaust and the oil dust. And works very well on the surface.?? In Euronaut the diesel air inlet is from the battery bilge compartment to vent also the battery gases during charing them on the surface run. The problem in real is more : If you stop the diesel for diving and close the hatch to dive and run electric. The inside goes pretty hot and dusty because you have some?big block of hot metal (engine, gear , compressor etc)? in you engine chamber..? Nice here in norther europe during the winter period..? Will not imagine what it means in the caribiean during summer. vbr Carsten DSO? (- Diesel Submarine Operator-?) "hank pronk" schrieb: Marc, >I would think you will need an ac unit on your engine because the engine will generate some heat even with a water cooled manifold.? If you run the exhaust stack inside the air stack it will pre heat the air coming into the engine.? Pre heated air is good in northern latitudes but bad in the tropics.? The heated air will kill your fuel efficiency.? I also would not suck the combustion air through the hull, the exhaust will find its way in.? I would do a short air stack and a tall folding exhaust stack.???A diesel engine in a psub is a great idea. >Hank >? > > >From: Marc de Piolenc >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 8:15:44 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef > > >I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't have a >sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current >handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air >temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of thought. > >My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make >it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will >need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, >and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while >doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air >conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I >realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have >the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air >in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of >running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that >I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of >preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't >quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions >in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust >flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming >in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort >would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, >the power penalty would be minimal. > >Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval >submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity >must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do >it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. > >Marc de Piolenc > >On 10/11/2013 1:45 AM, Land N Sea wrote: >> I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat >> and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I >> did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little >> taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesnt have the dome so I >> hopefully wont have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome >> but I was thinking about Emiles clear acrylic fairing as an option when >> I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. >> It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as >> Florida so I will probably be trying Phils idea of the frozen pouches >> vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my >> scrubber blowing against it. >-- >Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >? -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 http://www.euronaut.org/ Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Fri Oct 11 15:07:39 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 15:07:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <1381518189.98605.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381510680.87759.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VUgxh-3vjvkm0@fwd14.t-online.de> <1381516312.78114.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D094CA168E8B40-1840-185C1@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> <1381518189.98605.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D094CC49E090E0-1840-187B4@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> Hank, Congratulations are definitely in order. Great progress. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 12:03 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Vance, I just permanently installed the first component back into Gamma, it is one of the 200amp fuses all polished up. :-) Hank From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 12:51:54 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef There isn't enough freeboard to do this with a k--thus the snorkel. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 11:32 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Carsten, I would imagine if you are running down wind and the wind is faster than the boat, the exhaust may get sucked into the sub. I guess if a coarse correction is an option that would solve the problem. I think a small psub might not out run the wind. Hank From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 11:56:00 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Breathing air for the diesel engine from inside the cabin is very common to clean the cabin air. Air goes in the cabin via the open hatch. It also remove the little leaks from the exhaust and the oil dust. And works very well on the surface. In Euronaut the diesel air inlet is from the battery bilge compartment to vent also the battery gases during charing them on the surface run. The problem in real is more : If you stop the diesel for diving and close the hatch to dive and run electric. The inside goes pretty hot and dusty because you have some big block of hot metal (engine, gear , compressor etc) in you engine chamber.. Nice here in norther europe during the winter period.. Will not imagine what it means in the caribiean during summer. vbr Carsten DSO (- Diesel Submarine Operator- ) "hank pronk" schrieb: Marc, I would think you will need an ac unit on your engine because the engine will generate some heat even with a water cooled manifold. If you run the exhaust stack inside the air stack it will pre heat the air coming into the engine. Pre heated air is good in northern latitudes but bad in the tropics. The heated air will kill your fuel efficiency. I also would not suck the combustion air through the hull, the exhaust will find its way in. I would do a short air stack and a tall folding exhaust stack. A diesel engine in a psub is a great idea. Hank From: Marc de Piolenc To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 8:15:44 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't have a sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of thought. My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, the power penalty would be minimal. Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. Marc de Piolenc On 10/11/2013 1:45 AM, Land N Sea wrote: > I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat > and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I > did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little > taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesnt have the dome so I > hopefully wont have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome > but I was thinking about Emiles clear acrylic fairing as an option when > I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. > It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as > Florida so I will probably be trying Phils idea of the frozen pouches > vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my > scrubber blowing against it. -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 http://www.euronaut.org/ Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Fri Oct 11 15:12:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 11 Oct 2013 19:12 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <1381516312.78114.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381510680.87759.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VUgxh-3vjvkm0@fwd14.t-online.de> <1381516312.78114.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1VUi9d-4J4c3U0@fwd10.t-online.de> We have this problem sometimes in the harbour during warm up the engine. But never outside. Aspirin helps.. "hank pronk" schrieb: Carsten, I would imagine if you are running down wind and the wind is faster than the boat, the exhaust may get sucked into the sub. I guess if a coarse correction is an option that would solve the problem. I think a small psub might not out run the wind. Hank From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 11:56:00 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Breathing air for the diesel engine from inside the cabin is very common to clean the cabin air. Air goes in the cabin via the open hatch. It also remove the little leaks from the exhaust and the oil dust. And works very well on the surface. In Euronaut the diesel air inlet is from the battery bilge compartment to vent also the battery gases during charing them on the surface run. The problem in real is more : If you stop the diesel for diving and close the hatch to dive and run electric. The inside goes pretty hot and dusty because you have some big block of hot metal (engine, gear , compressor etc) in you engine chamber.. Nice here in norther europe during the winter period.. Will not imagine what it means in the caribiean during summer. vbr Carsten DSO (- Diesel Submarine Operator- ) "hank pronk" schrieb: Marc, I would think you will need an ac unit on your engine because the engine will generate some heat even with a water cooled manifold. If you run the exhaust stack inside the air stack it will pre heat the air coming into the engine. Pre heated air is good in northern latitudes but bad in the tropics. The heated air will kill your fuel efficiency. I also would not suck the combustion air through the hull, the exhaust will find its way in. I would do a short air stack and a tall folding exhaust stack. A diesel engine in a psub is a great idea. Hank From: Marc de Piolenc To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 8:15:44 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't have a sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of thought. My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, the power penalty would be minimal. Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. Marc de Piolenc On 10/11/2013 1:45 AM, Land N Sea wrote: > I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat > and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I > did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little > taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesnt have the dome so I > hopefully wont have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome > but I was thinking about Emiles clear acrylic fairing as an option when > I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. > It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as > Florida so I will probably be trying Phils idea of the frozen pouches > vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my > scrubber blowing against it. -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 15:13:47 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 09:13:47 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <524000C1-3F4F-4DE7-A36F-EC80D5E6F380@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <03A7E517-DB55-4296-8153-F3FE9D122826@yahoo.com> Hi Rick, Thanks I pre-paid 6 days in the Hotel, so I'm stuck here. This Island is big enough. Sent from my iPad On 11/10/2013, at 7:32 AM, "Land N Sea" wrote: > Hey Alan, > > I am on the Big Island (southern most) and do get over there from time to time to look at jobs but won?t be over there in the near future. Inter Island air fair has gone off the charts cuz they have you by the you know what. If you would feel like swinging by to see this Island on your way back, would love to meet you and show you my project. > That offer extends to anyone in the group. We have a spare guest room and could probably talk the wife into anyone staying a few days but longer than that you might have to get a room somewhere as she is a little weird about that, unlike myself. Got to keep the wife happy..... > Have a nice time in Waikiki. > > Aloha > > Rick > > > From: Alan > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 3:34 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef > > Rick, > I'm emailing from Starbucks on Waikiki beach. > You did say to come over for a conference. > Florida is pretty close in temperature. > I'm here for 6 days if you happen to be coming to this Island. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 10/10/2013, at 7:45 AM, "Land N Sea" wrote: > >> I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesn?t have the dome so I hopefully won?t have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome but I was thinking about Emile?s clear acrylic fairing as an option when I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. >> It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as Florida so I will probably be trying Phil?s idea of the frozen pouches vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my scrubber blowing against it. >> We have a heck of a fetch here in the middle of the pacific for the wind/waves to build and a three foot wave is considered the norm but I think the good news is that the tops of the waves may be further apart here giving a better window to get in and out quickly. >> Thanks >> >> Rick >> >> From: Alec Smyth >> Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 4:13 PM >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef >> >> Hi Rick, >> >> Well at least a 350 will be more resistant to it than a 250, since you have a taller coning tower. You may want to consider an Emile-style clear acrylic fairing around the coning tower to go even higher. Not sure if you are just catching up with email, but there's also this video: https://vimeo.com/76340636 >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 9:38 PM, Land N Sea wrote: >>> Thanks for the write up and very interesting to hear the things you have encountered! One thing that caught my attention was the fact that it was difficult if not impossible to enter the sub with the 3? chop!. I am building a K-350 on the big Island and we have no lakes to dive in only the ocean so I may have to address that somehow. >>> >>> best wishes >>> >>> Rick Patton >>> >>> From: Paul Kreemer >>> Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2013 9:35 AM >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef >>> >>> Thanks Alec, that's a great writeup of your adventure! >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> On Oct 5, 2013 11:05 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: >>>> Great tale. You should take up writing. Most enjoyable and I could picture the whole thing. >>>> >>>> Best wishes Hugh >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth >>>> Sent: Sunday, 6 October 2013 6:18 p.m. >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In Islamorada for the 2013 PSUBS convention, we tried a few days ago to dive the reefs off the Atlantic side of the island. After towing Snoopy out to the dive site, I had to call off the dive because a three foot chop made it unsafe to board. I made it aboard myself, but water was splashing over the hatch land, and with the weight of a second person it would have been touch and go. When their hatches are open, these little boats are like holes in the water just waiting to be filled up by the next wave. Three foot waves are not large, and they are entirely normal a few miles from shore, but they are just beyond practical conditions for Snoopy. >>>> >>>> For our second attempt on the reefs we changed tactics, deciding to board at the boat ramp and make the tow under a closed hatch. This would guarantee a dive regardless of wave conditions, but also introduce a new challenge. With a temperature of 89 degrees above the surface and 86 degrees below it, the problem was now how to avoid getting cooked during the tow. There was hardly a cloud in the sky, and Snoopy?s big acrylic dome hatch transforms her cabin into a greenhouse. The pilot, with his head in the middle of the dome, feels that he is under a giant magnifying glass. Hot air rises. >>>> >>>> Steve McQueen and I boarded at Harry Harris state park at 12:30, after having spent the morning at the local school giving four hundred local children a tour of the sub. Snoopy?s payload can be maximized by adding buoyancy spheres. We installed every available one, and used their buoyancy to load twenty pounds of ice inside the cabin. Our support diver, Scott Waters, attached a white hotel towel over the dome with bungee cord, and then tied off the tow line. We set out, towed by Doug Suhr in his whaler, an ideal surface support vessel. He had fashioned a custom wooden frame that allowed towing from a point just aft of midships. That is where tugs and trawlers attach their tow lines, and it allowed the whaler to retain good control, whereas in the past I had found Snoopy often turned around the towboat when towed from the transom. >>>> >>>> The tow was unexpectedly interesting, because of the bottom rushing by and constantly changing scenery. Most of the time it would be sand and sea grass, but there were always changes and it would at times become more rocky, or turn to pure sand, and drop away or rise up to just a couple of feet from us. We rushed past or right through clouds of jellies. As Steve put it, it felt like an arcade game. >>>> >>>> I have no idea how hot it was inside the sub, but it was surely an outrageous number. Prior to departure we had applied detergent to the viewports to prevent them from fogging. That succeeded on the forward viewport, but with that single exception every other surface in the boat streamed water profusely. Every ten minutes or so I would pick up a rapidly dwindling bag of ice and give it a hug, rest it on the back of my neck, or wear it as a hat. I went through five bottles of drinking water. >>>> >>>> Between the rolling of the boat, and the heat and humidity, I found myself getting a bit woozy. It was not sea sickness so much as a feeling of light-headedness, so we tried increasing the oxygen concentration in the cabin to counteract it. Between us we had been consuming ? liters of oxygen per minute, with the analyzer readings hovering around 19 percent and a fraction. We bumped up the flow to 4 liters per minute until the oxygen concentration reached 23 percent, a limit above which the cabin atmosphere would have become a fire hazard. That is only two percent above normal, but it made us both feel perceptibly better. >>>> >>>> We arrived at the dive site two hours after closing the hatch, and rather incredibly only four minutes after our target time of low tide. The twenty pounds of ice had all melted. Our normal tow speed is three knots, and the distance was only four miles, but some ?hatch closed? time was spent getting underway, some was spent on a stop to re-position the towel when it was displaced by waves washing over the dome, and some was spent on the final locating of the site. >>>> >>>> Doug anchored the whaler and Scott swam over to remove our towel sunshade, and to attach a video camera to the sub. In the previous few days the heat and humidity had already led to the failure of a depth sounder and a compass, so I had decided not to risk the good camera inside the sub. In tropical climates at least, the cabin is a very dangerous place for electronics. >>>> >>>> We initiated our dive and tested communications as soon as the transducer went under water. The gear worked, yet the communications were very faint. Snoopy?s transducers are mounted above the hull and immediately behind the conning tower. Being just beneath the surface and pointed in the direction of the whaler, the transducer?s line of sight to the boat was blocked by the conning tower. Once at depth the communications were loud and clear. >>>> >>>> The reef was unfortunately not healthy, as all reefs in this part of the world, yet it was absolutely fantastic compared to the lakes Snoopy normally dives in. There were large sponges, fish, and interesting terrain. In particular, we found ?streets? of sand running between raised mounds of coral on either side, reminiscent of scenes in the movie 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Visibility was about fifty feet. >>>> >>>> In Snoopy, almost all the viewing underwater is done through the bow viewport. Through the dome it is very hard to see the bottom unless diving alongside a wall or quite high terrain, and even in that scenario optical distortion causes features to appear very small and far off. Nonetheless, while I could hardly see the bottom through the dome, I did see a column of bubbles rising in the distance and steered Snoopy in their direction. It was Scott, who had found a lost anchor. He tied it to Snoopy?s pickup arm, and we blew some air into the ballast tanks and delivered it to the boat. >>>> >>>> We continued wandering the bottom, sometimes letting the current waft us along sideways and other times using the stern thruster to follow the ?sand roads?. These gradually led into deeper water, and we followed them hoping for the continental shelf drop-off that is only a short distance from Pickles reef. We started at thirty feet, and followed these paths down to a little over fifty feet, but unfortunately did not make it as far as the drop-off. >>>> >>>> Snoopy was ballasted ever so slightly buoyant, perhaps just a pound or two. One side thruster was locked in a straight down position, the other slightly inclined to counter the rotation induced by the props. Indeed the props only needed to turn very slowly to maintain depth, as if turned by hand instead of by a motor. To slowly rise I would shut them off, or I would speed them up to descend. The side thruster throttle acted as a ?depth knob?, allowing depth to be controlled with an accuracy of a couple of inches. >>>> >>>> Laying prone and looking out of the forward viewport, Steve had a good view of upcoming terrain. He acted as observer, calling out details about what lay ahead and asking for port or starboard headings and altitude adjustments. One tries to stay close to the bottom in order to see it better, but not touch anything in order to avoid damaging the reef. He took a turn at the controls as well, which in Snoopy does not mean that we changed places, but rather that we passed the remote controller between us. >>>> >>>> At one point we lost communications with the surface. We were to learn later that the whaler had re-positioned to follow us, and in doing so ran over its transducer cable, severing it and losing the transducer. The whaler could have tracked us by our acoustic pinger, but instead simply followed the bubbles of our support divers, who were following us by sight in the clear water. >>>> >>>> After an hour and a half of contented wandering, we suddenly sensed that the stern thruster had lost power. A moment later we both noticed a smell of burning. I turned off power to the stern thruster speed control, looked up to ensure we were not under the whaler, and immediately initiated a ballast blow, which gives a much faster rate of ascent than the thrusters. We could have continued maneuvering on side thrusters only, but it seemed prudent to call the dive. Afterwards I would discover that a little piece of fan coral had been sucked in by the stern thruster, and wedged between the propeller and its shroud. It was very tough material, and it locked up the thruster causing its speed controller to burn out. Although the speed controllers are supposed to have over-current protection, I will be adding breakers in the near future. >>>> >>>> One more surprise awaited us during the tow back to shore. After about an hour of towing, we had reached a spot at which the waves were lower, and we were on the radio to the whaler planning to pause the tow and transfer to her. But just then there was suddenly a very loud pop in the cabin, and my immediate thought was of a ruptured high pressure line. It was followed a second later by another equally loud pop. I was puzzled by the fact my ears were not registering any increase in cabin pressure, when I saw Steve?s life preserver inflating. These life preservers are of the type that resembles suspenders, inflated by a CO2 cartridge which Steve?s movement had accidentally triggered. For a moment it looked like his PFD might strangle him in the tight space, but he managed to wriggle out of it. I?ll be looking at some way to secure the rip cord on these PFDs, to make accidental deployment a little less likely. There is precious little space in Snoopy under normal conditions, but with an inflated PFD the lack of space becomes almost comical. >>>> >>>> Finally we came aboard the whaler. Being in the tower, I stowed my seat, climbed out, and closed the hatch quickly behind me. This allowed Steve to reposition himself into the tower without fear of being swamped while doing so. The hatch opened again, Steve jumped out, and we were both on deck. It had been five hours since we closed the hatch. >>>> >>>> It was only once back on the whaler I saw Steve was quite hungry. It was six in the evening, and he had avoided eating anything all day, anticipating that it would be a long dive and knowing that Snoopy has no head. Now that is dedication! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8880 (20131005) __________ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8880 (20131005) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Fri Oct 11 15:16:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 11 Oct 2013 19:16 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <8D094CA168E8B40-1840-185C1@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381510680.87759.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VUgxh-3vjvkm0@fwd14.t-online.de> <1381516312.78114.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D094CA168E8B40-1840-185C1@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1VUiDj-1YtGQi0@fwd17.t-online.de> They solve that on the Biber class, the exhaust is the pipe just behind the sail. Comes from the hull and ends in a watertrap. http://shop.vth.de/media/catalog/product/3/2/3216358.GIF vbr Carsten schrieb: There isn't enough freeboard to do this with a k--thus the snorkel. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 11:32 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Carsten, I would imagine if you are running down wind and the wind is faster than the boat, the exhaust may get sucked into the sub. I guess if a coarse correction is an option that would solve the problem. I think a small psub might not out run the wind. Hank From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 11:56:00 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Breathing air for the diesel engine from inside the cabin is very common to clean the cabin air. Air goes in the cabin via the open hatch. It also remove the little leaks from the exhaust and the oil dust. And works very well on the surface. In Euronaut the diesel air inlet is from the battery bilge compartment to vent also the battery gases during charing them on the surface run. The problem in real is more : If you stop the diesel for diving and close the hatch to dive and run electric. The inside goes pretty hot and dusty because you have some big block of hot metal (engine, gear , compressor etc) in you engine chamber.. Nice here in norther europe during the winter period.. Will not imagine what it means in the caribiean during summer. vbr Carsten DSO (- Diesel Submarine Operator- ) "hank pronk" schrieb: Marc, I would think you will need an ac unit on your engine because the engine will generate some heat even with a water cooled manifold. If you run the exhaust stack inside the air stack it will pre heat the air coming into the engine. Pre heated air is good in northern latitudes but bad in the tropics. The heated air will kill your fuel efficiency. I also would not suck the combustion air through the hull, the exhaust will find its way in. I would do a short air stack and a tall folding exhaust stack. A diesel engine in a psub is a great idea. Hank From: Marc de Piolenc To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 8:15:44 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't have a sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of thought. My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, the power penalty would be minimal. Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. Marc de Piolenc On 10/11/2013 1:45 AM, Land N Sea wrote: > I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat > and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I > did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little > taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesnt have the dome so I > hopefully wont have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome > but I was thinking about Emiles clear acrylic fairing as an option when > I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. > It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as > Florida so I will probably be trying Phils idea of the frozen pouches > vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my > scrubber blowing against it. -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 15:20:02 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 09:20:02 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <03A7E517-DB55-4296-8153-F3FE9D122826@yahoo.com> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <524000C1-3F4F-4DE7-A36F-EC80D5E6F380@yahoo.com> <03A7E517-DB55-4296-8153-F3FE9D122826@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <38EBC9BF-2225-4F39-8B8C-7E61E59670B3@yahoo.com> Sorry that last email got sent off prematurely. This Ipad is too small, or my fingers are too big. Yes was married once. Don't think I'd have had a show of getting to the Psub conference if I were still married. Lovely water here & deep drop offs. I'm sure you will be posting some awesome videos when the sub is finished. Alan Sent from my iPad On 11/10/2013, at 9:14 AM, Alan wrote: > Hi Rick, > Thanks I pre-paid 6 days in the Hotel, so I'm stuck here. This Island is big enough. > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 11/10/2013, at 7:32 AM, "Land N Sea" wrote: > >> Hey Alan, >> >> I am on the Big Island (southern most) and do get over there from time to time to look at jobs but won?t be over there in the near future. Inter Island air fair has gone off the charts cuz they have you by the you know what. If you would feel like swinging by to see this Island on your way back, would love to meet you and show you my project. >> That offer extends to anyone in the group. We have a spare guest room and could probably talk the wife into anyone staying a few days but longer than that you might have to get a room somewhere as she is a little weird about that, unlike myself. Got to keep the wife happy..... >> Have a nice time in Waikiki. >> >> Aloha >> >> Rick >> >> >> From: Alan >> Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 3:34 PM >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef >> >> Rick, >> I'm emailing from Starbucks on Waikiki beach. >> You did say to come over for a conference. >> Florida is pretty close in temperature. >> I'm here for 6 days if you happen to be coming to this Island. >> Alan >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 10/10/2013, at 7:45 AM, "Land N Sea" wrote: >> >>> I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesn?t have the dome so I hopefully won?t have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome but I was thinking about Emile?s clear acrylic fairing as an option when I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. >>> It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as Florida so I will probably be trying Phil?s idea of the frozen pouches vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my scrubber blowing against it. >>> We have a heck of a fetch here in the middle of the pacific for the wind/waves to build and a three foot wave is considered the norm but I think the good news is that the tops of the waves may be further apart here giving a better window to get in and out quickly. >>> Thanks >>> >>> Rick >>> >>> From: Alec Smyth >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 4:13 PM >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef >>> >>> Hi Rick, >>> >>> Well at least a 350 will be more resistant to it than a 250, since you have a taller coning tower. You may want to consider an Emile-style clear acrylic fairing around the coning tower to go even higher. Not sure if you are just catching up with email, but there's also this video: https://vimeo.com/76340636 >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 9:38 PM, Land N Sea wrote: >>>> Thanks for the write up and very interesting to hear the things you have encountered! One thing that caught my attention was the fact that it was difficult if not impossible to enter the sub with the 3? chop!. I am building a K-350 on the big Island and we have no lakes to dive in only the ocean so I may have to address that somehow. >>>> >>>> best wishes >>>> >>>> Rick Patton >>>> >>>> From: Paul Kreemer >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2013 9:35 AM >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef >>>> >>>> Thanks Alec, that's a great writeup of your adventure! >>>> >>>> Paul >>>> >>>> On Oct 5, 2013 11:05 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: >>>>> Great tale. You should take up writing. Most enjoyable and I could picture the whole thing. >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes Hugh >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth >>>>> Sent: Sunday, 6 October 2013 6:18 p.m. >>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In Islamorada for the 2013 PSUBS convention, we tried a few days ago to dive the reefs off the Atlantic side of the island. After towing Snoopy out to the dive site, I had to call off the dive because a three foot chop made it unsafe to board. I made it aboard myself, but water was splashing over the hatch land, and with the weight of a second person it would have been touch and go. When their hatches are open, these little boats are like holes in the water just waiting to be filled up by the next wave. Three foot waves are not large, and they are entirely normal a few miles from shore, but they are just beyond practical conditions for Snoopy. >>>>> >>>>> For our second attempt on the reefs we changed tactics, deciding to board at the boat ramp and make the tow under a closed hatch. This would guarantee a dive regardless of wave conditions, but also introduce a new challenge. With a temperature of 89 degrees above the surface and 86 degrees below it, the problem was now how to avoid getting cooked during the tow. There was hardly a cloud in the sky, and Snoopy?s big acrylic dome hatch transforms her cabin into a greenhouse. The pilot, with his head in the middle of the dome, feels that he is under a giant magnifying glass. Hot air rises. >>>>> >>>>> Steve McQueen and I boarded at Harry Harris state park at 12:30, after having spent the morning at the local school giving four hundred local children a tour of the sub. Snoopy?s payload can be maximized by adding buoyancy spheres. We installed every available one, and used their buoyancy to load twenty pounds of ice inside the cabin. Our support diver, Scott Waters, attached a white hotel towel over the dome with bungee cord, and then tied off the tow line. We set out, towed by Doug Suhr in his whaler, an ideal surface support vessel. He had fashioned a custom wooden frame that allowed towing from a point just aft of midships. That is where tugs and trawlers attach their tow lines, and it allowed the whaler to retain good control, whereas in the past I had found Snoopy often turned around the towboat when towed from the transom. >>>>> >>>>> The tow was unexpectedly interesting, because of the bottom rushing by and constantly changing scenery. Most of the time it would be sand and sea grass, but there were always changes and it would at times become more rocky, or turn to pure sand, and drop away or rise up to just a couple of feet from us. We rushed past or right through clouds of jellies. As Steve put it, it felt like an arcade game. >>>>> >>>>> I have no idea how hot it was inside the sub, but it was surely an outrageous number. Prior to departure we had applied detergent to the viewports to prevent them from fogging. That succeeded on the forward viewport, but with that single exception every other surface in the boat streamed water profusely. Every ten minutes or so I would pick up a rapidly dwindling bag of ice and give it a hug, rest it on the back of my neck, or wear it as a hat. I went through five bottles of drinking water. >>>>> >>>>> Between the rolling of the boat, and the heat and humidity, I found myself getting a bit woozy. It was not sea sickness so much as a feeling of light-headedness, so we tried increasing the oxygen concentration in the cabin to counteract it. Between us we had been consuming ? liters of oxygen per minute, with the analyzer readings hovering around 19 percent and a fraction. We bumped up the flow to 4 liters per minute until the oxygen concentration reached 23 percent, a limit above which the cabin atmosphere would have become a fire hazard. That is only two percent above normal, but it made us both feel perceptibly better. >>>>> >>>>> We arrived at the dive site two hours after closing the hatch, and rather incredibly only four minutes after our target time of low tide. The twenty pounds of ice had all melted. Our normal tow speed is three knots, and the distance was only four miles, but some ?hatch closed? time was spent getting underway, some was spent on a stop to re-position the towel when it was displaced by waves washing over the dome, and some was spent on the final locating of the site. >>>>> >>>>> Doug anchored the whaler and Scott swam over to remove our towel sunshade, and to attach a video camera to the sub. In the previous few days the heat and humidity had already led to the failure of a depth sounder and a compass, so I had decided not to risk the good camera inside the sub. In tropical climates at least, the cabin is a very dangerous place for electronics. >>>>> >>>>> We initiated our dive and tested communications as soon as the transducer went under water. The gear worked, yet the communications were very faint. Snoopy?s transducers are mounted above the hull and immediately behind the conning tower. Being just beneath the surface and pointed in the direction of the whaler, the transducer?s line of sight to the boat was blocked by the conning tower. Once at depth the communications were loud and clear. >>>>> >>>>> The reef was unfortunately not healthy, as all reefs in this part of the world, yet it was absolutely fantastic compared to the lakes Snoopy normally dives in. There were large sponges, fish, and interesting terrain. In particular, we found ?streets? of sand running between raised mounds of coral on either side, reminiscent of scenes in the movie 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Visibility was about fifty feet. >>>>> >>>>> In Snoopy, almost all the viewing underwater is done through the bow viewport. Through the dome it is very hard to see the bottom unless diving alongside a wall or quite high terrain, and even in that scenario optical distortion causes features to appear very small and far off. Nonetheless, while I could hardly see the bottom through the dome, I did see a column of bubbles rising in the distance and steered Snoopy in their direction. It was Scott, who had found a lost anchor. He tied it to Snoopy?s pickup arm, and we blew some air into the ballast tanks and delivered it to the boat. >>>>> >>>>> We continued wandering the bottom, sometimes letting the current waft us along sideways and other times using the stern thruster to follow the ?sand roads?. These gradually led into deeper water, and we followed them hoping for the continental shelf drop-off that is only a short distance from Pickles reef. We started at thirty feet, and followed these paths down to a little over fifty feet, but unfortunately did not make it as far as the drop-off. >>>>> >>>>> Snoopy was ballasted ever so slightly buoyant, perhaps just a pound or two. One side thruster was locked in a straight down position, the other slightly inclined to counter the rotation induced by the props. Indeed the props only needed to turn very slowly to maintain depth, as if turned by hand instead of by a motor. To slowly rise I would shut them off, or I would speed them up to descend. The side thruster throttle acted as a ?depth knob?, allowing depth to be controlled with an accuracy of a couple of inches. >>>>> >>>>> Laying prone and looking out of the forward viewport, Steve had a good view of upcoming terrain. He acted as observer, calling out details about what lay ahead and asking for port or starboard headings and altitude adjustments. One tries to stay close to the bottom in order to see it better, but not touch anything in order to avoid damaging the reef. He took a turn at the controls as well, which in Snoopy does not mean that we changed places, but rather that we passed the remote controller between us. >>>>> >>>>> At one point we lost communications with the surface. We were to learn later that the whaler had re-positioned to follow us, and in doing so ran over its transducer cable, severing it and losing the transducer. The whaler could have tracked us by our acoustic pinger, but instead simply followed the bubbles of our support divers, who were following us by sight in the clear water. >>>>> >>>>> After an hour and a half of contented wandering, we suddenly sensed that the stern thruster had lost power. A moment later we both noticed a smell of burning. I turned off power to the stern thruster speed control, looked up to ensure we were not under the whaler, and immediately initiated a ballast blow, which gives a much faster rate of ascent than the thrusters. We could have continued maneuvering on side thrusters only, but it seemed prudent to call the dive. Afterwards I would discover that a little piece of fan coral had been sucked in by the stern thruster, and wedged between the propeller and its shroud. It was very tough material, and it locked up the thruster causing its speed controller to burn out. Although the speed controllers are supposed to have over-current protection, I will be adding breakers in the near future. >>>>> >>>>> One more surprise awaited us during the tow back to shore. After about an hour of towing, we had reached a spot at which the waves were lower, and we were on the radio to the whaler planning to pause the tow and transfer to her. But just then there was suddenly a very loud pop in the cabin, and my immediate thought was of a ruptured high pressure line. It was followed a second later by another equally loud pop. I was puzzled by the fact my ears were not registering any increase in cabin pressure, when I saw Steve?s life preserver inflating. These life preservers are of the type that resembles suspenders, inflated by a CO2 cartridge which Steve?s movement had accidentally triggered. For a moment it looked like his PFD might strangle him in the tight space, but he managed to wriggle out of it. I?ll be looking at some way to secure the rip cord on these PFDs, to make accidental deployment a little less likely. There is precious little space in Snoopy under normal conditions, but with an inflated PFD the lack of space becomes almost comical. >>>>> >>>>> Finally we came aboard the whaler. Being in the tower, I stowed my seat, climbed out, and closed the hatch quickly behind me. This allowed Steve to reposition himself into the tower without fear of being swamped while doing so. The hatch opened again, Steve jumped out, and we were both on deck. It had been five hours since we closed the hatch. >>>>> >>>>> It was only once back on the whaler I saw Steve was quite hungry. It was six in the evening, and he had avoided eating anything all day, anticipating that it would be a long dive and knowing that Snoopy has no head. Now that is dedication! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8880 (20131005) __________ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8880 (20131005) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Oct 11 16:02:35 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 13:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <8D094CC49E090E0-1840-187B4@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381510680.87759.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VUgxh-3vjvkm0@fwd14.t-online.de> <1381516312.78114.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D094CA168E8B40-1840-185C1@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> <1381518189.98605.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D094CC49E090E0-1840-187B4@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1381521755.34442.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, thank's? it is going very good.? I just washed the battery selector switch with an sos pad in my wife's new kitchen sink,,,I got the LOOK! so I may wait till she is gone to wash the next part :-)? the switch looks great lol Hank From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 1:07:39 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Hank, Congratulations are definitely in order. Great progress. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 12:03 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Vance, I just permanently ?installed the first ?component back into Gamma, it is one of the 200amp fuses all polished up.? :-) Hank From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 12:51:54 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef There isn't enough freeboard to do this with a k--thus the snorkel. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 11:32 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Carsten, I would imagine if you are running down wind and the wind is faster than the boat, the exhaust may get sucked into the sub.? I guess if a coarse correction is an option that would solve the problem.? I think a small psub might not out run the wind. Hank From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 11:56:00 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Breathing air for the diesel engine from inside?the cabin is?very common to clean?the cabin air. Air goes in the cabin via the open hatch. It also remove the little leaks from the exhaust and the oil dust. And works very well on the surface.?? In Euronaut the diesel air inlet is from the battery bilge compartment to vent also the battery gases during charing them on the surface run. The problem in real is more : If you stop the diesel for diving and close the hatch to dive and run electric. The inside goes pretty hot and dusty because you have some?big block of hot metal (engine, gear , compressor etc)? in you engine chamber..? Nice here in norther europe during the winter period..? Will not imagine what it means in the caribiean during summer. vbr Carsten DSO? (- Diesel Submarine Operator-?) "hank pronk" schrieb: Marc, >I would think you will need an ac unit on your engine because the engine will generate some heat even with a water cooled manifold.? If you run the exhaust stack inside the air stack it will pre heat the air coming into the engine.? Pre heated air is good in northern latitudes but bad in the tropics.? The heated air will kill your fuel efficiency.? I also would not suck the combustion air through the hull, the exhaust will find its way in.? I would do a short air stack and a tall folding exhaust stack.???A diesel engine in a psub is a great idea. >Hank >? > > >From: Marc de Piolenc >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 8:15:44 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef > > >I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't have a >sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current >handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air >temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of thought. > >My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make >it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will >need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, >and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while >doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air >conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I >realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have >the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air >in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of >running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that >I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of >preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't >quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions >in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust >flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming >in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort >would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, >the power penalty would be minimal. > >Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval >submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity >must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do >it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. > >Marc de Piolenc > >On 10/11/2013 1:45 AM, Land N Sea wrote: >> I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat >> and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I >> did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little >> taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesnt have the dome so I >> hopefully wont have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome >> but I was thinking about Emiles clear acrylic fairing as an option when >> I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. >> It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as >> Florida so I will probably be trying Phils idea of the frozen pouches >> vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my >> scrubber blowing against it. >-- >Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >? -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 http://www.euronaut.org/ Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Fri Oct 11 16:06:30 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 16:06:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <1381521755.34442.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381510680.87759.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VUgxh-3vjvkm0@fwd14.t-online.de> <1381516312.78114.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D094CA168E8B40-1840-185C1@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> <1381518189.98605.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D094CC49E090E0-1840-187B4@webmail-d294.sysops.aol.com> <1381521755.34442.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D094D482365EC8-2358-1998D@webmail-m217.sysops.aol.com> Let's see...new kitchen sink, new sub...um...seems perfectly logical to me. -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 1:03 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Vance, thank's it is going very good. I just washed the battery selector switch with an sos pad in my wife's new kitchen sink,,,I got the LOOK! so I may wait till she is gone to wash the next part :-) the switch looks great lol Hank From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 1:07:39 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Hank, Congratulations are definitely in order. Great progress. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 12:03 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Vance, I just permanently installed the first component back into Gamma, it is one of the 200amp fuses all polished up. :-) Hank From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 12:51:54 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef There isn't enough freeboard to do this with a k--thus the snorkel. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 11:32 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Carsten, I would imagine if you are running down wind and the wind is faster than the boat, the exhaust may get sucked into the sub. I guess if a coarse correction is an option that would solve the problem. I think a small psub might not out run the wind. Hank From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 11:56:00 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef Breathing air for the diesel engine from inside the cabin is very common to clean the cabin air. Air goes in the cabin via the open hatch. It also remove the little leaks from the exhaust and the oil dust. And works very well on the surface. In Euronaut the diesel air inlet is from the battery bilge compartment to vent also the battery gases during charing them on the surface run. The problem in real is more : If you stop the diesel for diving and close the hatch to dive and run electric. The inside goes pretty hot and dusty because you have some big block of hot metal (engine, gear , compressor etc) in you engine chamber.. Nice here in norther europe during the winter period.. Will not imagine what it means in the caribiean during summer. vbr Carsten DSO (- Diesel Submarine Operator- ) "hank pronk" schrieb: Marc, I would think you will need an ac unit on your engine because the engine will generate some heat even with a water cooled manifold. If you run the exhaust stack inside the air stack it will pre heat the air coming into the engine. Pre heated air is good in northern latitudes but bad in the tropics. The heated air will kill your fuel efficiency. I also would not suck the combustion air through the hull, the exhaust will find its way in. I would do a short air stack and a tall folding exhaust stack. A diesel engine in a psub is a great idea. Hank From: Marc de Piolenc To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 8:15:44 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't have a sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of thought. My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, the power penalty would be minimal. Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. Marc de Piolenc On 10/11/2013 1:45 AM, Land N Sea wrote: > I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat > and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I > did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little > taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesnt have the dome so I > hopefully wont have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome > but I was thinking about Emiles clear acrylic fairing as an option when > I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. > It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as > Florida so I will probably be trying Phils idea of the frozen pouches > vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my > scrubber blowing against it. -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 http://www.euronaut.org/ Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hc.fulton at gmail.com Fri Oct 11 16:28:41 2013 From: hc.fulton at gmail.com (Hugh Fulton) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 09:28:41 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust In-Reply-To: <1VUgbd-1B4KkS0@fwd10.t-online.de> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381493031.12104.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VUgbd-1B4KkS0@fwd10.t-online.de> Message-ID: <52585f72.a700420a.3855.643d@mx.google.com> Hi Marc, I am in the final throes of finishing twin engine driven 2 man and I have opted for the following: 2 x 2? Snorkels with plastic float valves leading into the cabin through 2 x 2? combination valves being manual ball valves coupled to air actuated shuttle valves and fitted with non return valves. This means that the non return valves will vent overpressure situation on the surface and blow out through the snorkel float valves. The snorkels are located inside an airbox leading into the boat part which has about 4 cubic meters of air volume so that if I go through a wave the float valve does not get to close and the air is drawn from the ?air box? volume for a brief period. The air is then drawn from the cabin again through 2 x combination valves into the engine pressure chambers. The exhaust which also takes a large portion of the engine cooling water goes through a raised exhaust line above the water level then down through an air operated shuttle valve and a non return valve exiting underwater through the center of the propeller as per an outboard motor or stern leg. According to the rules you should have 2 valves on the exhaust. I am relying on the air drawn through the cabin for cooling and as most of the cabin is protected by fiberglass I am hoping that it wont get too much direct heating from the sun apart from through the domes. When the air operated shuttle valves are closed ready for diving the engines will pull a vacuum of approx 1-2 psi before shutting down. IF no vacuum maintained then no dive and the engines keep running. All untested yet but hoping I am only about 8 weeks away. Carsten?s system is all tested and proven. Regards, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Sent: Saturday, 12 October 2013 6:33 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust Hi Marc, before I response in detail, which size should the sub have? And which range? And which kind of wave high, wave length and weather you want to survife on the surface? Any concept sketch? Do you like to snorckel with the sub? Euronaut has more problems with the short medium high wave in the baltic than with the high but long waves in the north sea. Bad weather in the north sea lift the hole boat before the wave reach the sail, but in the Baltic the waves are shorter and did mot lift the boat so much - as result the sail goes very wet. Like in the movie "Das Boot" Short wave in the baltic: http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/operational/IMG_8705.jpg Here the over waterline exhaust of Euronaut in operation. The funny sound comes from a wave flap close to the end of the exhaust which goes up and down at idlle speed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT7i05s92ak Cooling is also something you should have in mind. And noise.. And.. vbr Carsten From: Marc de Piolenc To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't have a sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of thought. My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, the power penalty would be minimal. Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. Marc de Piolenc -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8903 (20131010) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Fri Oct 11 16:38:55 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 13:38:55 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?utf-8?q?anyone_heard_this_story=3F?= Message-ID: <20131011133855.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.2e82ce430d.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Fri Oct 11 16:57:12 2013 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 16:57:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] anyone heard this story? Message-ID: <927ce.150e87b0.3f89c028@aol.com> Scott, We had a thread on it a couple of months or so ago. When I first read about it, it scared the heck out of me. Then I read that the float that supports his snorkel has enough buoyancy (on purpose) that his sub can't pull it under and thereby limits his depth. Since his air supply is from the surface instead of being on board, I would assume the fan-driven ventilation loop therefore exhausts his exhaled air. Frankly it still seems a bit scary, just not as much as at first. One of the articles make a passing reference to it having several safety systems, and I think his dad is an engineer, so hopefully none of the future articles will be in the obit section. Jim In a message dated 10/11/2013 3:39:42 P.M. Central Daylight Time, swaters at waters-ks.com writes: Has anyone heard this story on CNN? Looks like a death trap to me. http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/29/tech/innovation/teenager-justin-beckerman-buil ds-working-submarine/index.html Thanks, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Oct 11 17:15:45 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 14:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] anyone heard this story? In-Reply-To: <20131011133855.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.2e82ce430d.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20131011133855.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.2e82ce430d.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: <1381526145.96464.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I give the kid credit, sure it's not what I would build but he has already been deeper than most of the subs here on psubs.? Now that includes the subs on paper of coarse.? Even the million dollar subs.? And he is what 18 or so.? ? Hank From: "swaters at waters-ks.com" To: psubs Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 2:38:55 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] anyone heard this story? Has anyone heard this story on CNN? Looks like a death trap to me. http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/29/tech/innovation/teenager-justin-beckerman-builds-working-submarine/index.html Thanks, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 17:22:03 2013 From: jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com (greg cottrell) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 14:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust In-Reply-To: <8D094AF2E61A2BB-2174-15B6C@webmail-m175.sysops.aol.com> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381493031.12104.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D094AF2E61A2BB-2174-15B6C@webmail-m175.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1381526523.71058.YahooMailNeo@web121906.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, ? I can confirm that the sub that George intended to be diesel powered was cleaned and painted through the efforts of his friend Ian and local business and put on display as a memorial to George. ? Greg ? ? ? ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust James, I think the diesel subs were mentioned in passing in George's autobiography, rather than in detail. They were K-subs, one 500-foot capable that went to Alaska for a recently retired super tanker Captain. He had another one (the third?) unfinished?sitting in the weeds by the shop when I was last there which I half remember was a K-250. ? All I really remember about that one?is that the aft elliptical?head was flanged and bolted to the hull cylinder?for access to the diesel, and had the underwater exhaust like a WW II sub and a snorkel for the engine.?That was going to be?the Skipper's?next personal sub, but he got sidetracked when?he reacquired the K-600. He never finished the diesel sub that I know of, and I don't have any idea what happened to it in any case. ? I do know that the family house and archives were donated to the Owl's Head township or the county historical society?or somebody like that,?and that something or other is on display up there. No idea where, but you might call the South Thomaston library, which is open part time and just down the street from the Kittredge house. They might know something about what went where, or provide a clue you could follow. I don't know what they ended up doing with the house itself, either. Maybe it's a museum now, too. ? There is also a very nice transportation museum just up the road from George's house. (it might, in fact, be called the Owl's Head Transportation Museum, or something similar).?Who knows? That little sub might have been painted up and put on display as a reminder of one of South Thomaston's most interesting and productive characters.?Be a shame if it wasn't. ? And if the diesel sub modifications could be unearthed, I'm sure they would be a welcome addition to the psubbers archives.?There will be prints, somewhere. George did a lot of them himself, but surely they were saved, and having been saved, might be rescued from obscurity. If it costs a bit, let me know. I'll chip in just for general interest, and perhaps others would, too. Also, Jon had some of the last dealings up there, and might have an idea or two about how you (or we) could track things down. ? Vance -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 6:10 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust Hi Greg\All, Does anyone have any more info on Georges diesel subs?? I have his book and i dont recall any mention of them, though i could be mistaken, its a while since i read it.? I'd just be interested to see more info.? Were they K type designs?? Or something else? Thanks james On 11 October 2013 13:03, greg cottrell wrote: Captain Kittredge built a couple of diesel subs that worked very well. In his design, exhaust went straight down into the water at the bottom of the hull. The exhaust exit was directly behind what looked like a "v" shaped steel skeg that created a low pressure area when the sub was moving forward. The low pressure area reduced back pressure on the exhaust. > >Incidentally, one of George's customers bought a diesel sub from him but took it down one time without closing the exhaust valve. Water entered one of the cylinders in the diesel and bent either the crank or the rods when he tried to start the engine. > >Greg > > > >From: Marc de Piolenc >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 10:15 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef > > >I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't have a >sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current >handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air >temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of thought. > >My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make >it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will >need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, >and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while >doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air >conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I >realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have >the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air >in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of >running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that >I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of >preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't >quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions >in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust >flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming >in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort >would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, >the power penalty would be minimal. > >Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval >submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity >must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do >it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. > >Marc de Piolenc > >On 10/11/2013 1:45 AM, Land N Sea wrote: >> I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat >> and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I >> did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little >> taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesn?t have the dome so I >> hopefully won?t have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome >> but I was thinking about Emile?s clear acrylic fairing as an option when >> I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. >> It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as >> Florida so I will probably be trying Phil?s idea of the frozen pouches >> vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my >> scrubber blowing against it. >-- >Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Fri Oct 11 17:26:01 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 16:26:01 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] anyone heard this story? Message-ID: Defenetly a great acomplishment. I e-mailed him and asked him to join psubs. The part that scares me the most is the dome made from a old skylight. A catastrosphic failure even at 30 feet can kill. Maybe he will join and we can help him. Thanks Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphonehank pronk wrote:I give the kid credit, sure it's not what I would build but he has already been deeper than most of the subs here on psubs.? Now that includes the subs on paper of coarse.? Even the million dollar subs.? And he is what 18 or so.? ? Hank From: "swaters at waters-ks.com" To: psubs Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 2:38:55 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] anyone heard this story? Has anyone heard this story on CNN? Looks like a death trap to me. ? http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/29/tech/innovation/teenager-justin-beckerman-builds-working-submarine/index.html ? Thanks, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Fri Oct 11 17:35:05 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 14:35:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] anyone heard this story? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1381527305.11911.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Scott, Great idea, I am glad you reached out to him.? I watched a video of him testing it and when things were going wrong I was pretty freaked out.? He stayed very calm and I was very impressed with that.? I think the kid is great and would make a nice addition to psubs. Hank From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 3:26:01 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] anyone heard this story? Defenetly a great acomplishment. I e-mailed him and asked him to join psubs. The part that scares me the most is the dome made from a old skylight. A catastrosphic failure even at 30 feet can kill. Maybe he will join and we can help him. Thanks Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: I give the kid credit, sure it's not what I would build but he has already been deeper than most of the subs here on psubs.? Now that includes the subs on paper of coarse.? Even the million dollar subs.? And he is what 18 or so.? ? Hank From: "swaters at waters-ks.com" To: psubs Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 2:38:55 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] anyone heard this story? Has anyone heard this story on CNN? Looks like a death trap to me. http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/29/tech/innovation/teenager-justin-beckerman-builds-working-submarine/index.html Thanks, Scott Waters _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 17:35:35 2013 From: jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com (greg cottrell) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 14:35:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kittredge memorial In-Reply-To: <1381526523.71058.YahooMailNeo@web121906.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381493031.12104.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D094AF2E61A2BB-2174-15B6C@webmail-m175.sysops.aol.com> <1381526523.71058.YahooMailNeo@web121906.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381527335.88094.YahooMailNeo@web121901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> You can see the Kittredge memorial sub on this link: ? http://progress-is-fine.blogspot.com/2012/09/personal-submarines.html ? Greg ? ? ? ? ________________________________ From: greg cottrell To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 5:22 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust Vance, I can confirm that the sub that George intended to be diesel powered was cleaned and painted through the efforts of his friend Ian and local business and put on display as a memorial to George. Greg ? ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust James, I think the diesel subs were mentioned in passing in George's autobiography, rather than in detail. They were K-subs, one 500-foot capable that went to Alaska for a recently retired super tanker Captain. He had another one (the third?) unfinished?sitting in the weeds by the shop when I was last there which I half remember was a K-250. ? All I really remember about that one?is that the aft elliptical?head was flanged and bolted to the hull cylinder?for access to the diesel, and had the underwater exhaust like a WW II sub and a snorkel for the engine.?That was going to be?the Skipper's?next personal sub, but he got sidetracked when?he reacquired the K-600. He never finished the diesel sub that I know of, and I don't have any idea what happened to it in any case. ? I do know that the family house and archives were donated to the Owl's Head township or the county historical society?or somebody like that,?and that something or other is on display up there. No idea where, but you might call the South Thomaston library, which is open part time and just down the street from the Kittredge house. They might know something about what went where, or provide a clue you could follow. I don't know what they ended up doing with the house itself, either. Maybe it's a museum now, too. ? There is also a very nice transportation museum just up the road from George's house. (it might, in fact, be called the Owl's Head Transportation Museum, or something similar).?Who knows? That little sub might have been painted up and put on display as a reminder of one of South Thomaston's most interesting and productive characters.?Be a shame if it wasn't. ? And if the diesel sub modifications could be unearthed, I'm sure they would be a welcome addition to the psubbers archives.?There will be prints, somewhere. George did a lot of them himself, but surely they were saved, and having been saved, might be rescued from obscurity. If it costs a bit, let me know. I'll chip in just for general interest, and perhaps others would, too. Also, Jon had some of the last dealings up there, and might have an idea or two about how you (or we) could track things down. ? Vance -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 6:10 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust Hi Greg\All, Does anyone have any more info on Georges diesel subs?? I have his book and i dont recall any mention of them, though i could be mistaken, its a while since i read it.? I'd just be interested to see more info.? Were they K type designs?? Or something else? Thanks james On 11 October 2013 13:03, greg cottrell wrote: Captain Kittredge built a couple of diesel subs that worked very well. In his design, exhaust went straight down into the water at the bottom of the hull. The exhaust exit was directly behind what looked like a "v" shaped steel skeg that created a low pressure area when the sub was moving forward. The low pressure area reduced back pressure on the exhaust. > >Incidentally, one of George's customers bought a diesel sub from him but took it down one time without closing the exhaust valve. Water entered one of the cylinders in the diesel and bent either the crank or the rods when he tried to start the engine. > >Greg > > > >From: Marc de Piolenc >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 10:15 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef > > >I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't have a >sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current >handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air >temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of thought. > >My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make >it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will >need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, >and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while >doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air >conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I >realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have >the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air >in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of >running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that >I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of >preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't >quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions >in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust >flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming >in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort >would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, >the power penalty would be minimal. > >Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval >submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity >must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do >it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. > >Marc de Piolenc > >On 10/11/2013 1:45 AM, Land N Sea wrote: >> I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat >> and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I >> did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little >> taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesn?t have the dome so I >> hopefully won?t have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome >> but I was thinking about Emile?s clear acrylic fairing as an option when >> I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. >> It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as >> Florida so I will probably be trying Phil?s idea of the frozen pouches >> vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my >> scrubber blowing against it. >-- >Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Fri Oct 11 18:50:04 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 18:50:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust In-Reply-To: <1381526523.71058.YahooMailNeo@web121906.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381493031.12104.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D094AF2E61A2BB-2174-15B6C@webmail-m175.sysops.aol.com> <1381526523.71058.YahooMailNeo@web121906.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D094EB5BB4B92A-9F4-1B355@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> That makes it the last survivor up there. I wonder if we can track the kid and see if there was anything left of the drawings and whatnot. Vance -----Original Message----- From: greg cottrell To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 2:22 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust Vance, I can confirm that the sub that George intended to be diesel powered was cleaned and painted through the efforts of his friend Ian and local business and put on display as a memorial to George. Greg From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust James, I think the diesel subs were mentioned in passing in George's autobiography, rather than in detail. They were K-subs, one 500-foot capable that went to Alaska for a recently retired super tanker Captain. He had another one (the third?) unfinished sitting in the weeds by the shop when I was last there which I half remember was a K-250. All I really remember about that one is that the aft elliptical head was flanged and bolted to the hull cylinder for access to the diesel, and had the underwater exhaust like a WW II sub and a snorkel for the engine. That was going to be the Skipper's next personal sub, but he got sidetracked when he reacquired the K-600. He never finished the diesel sub that I know of, and I don't have any idea what happened to it in any case. I do know that the family house and archives were donated to the Owl's Head township or the county historical society or somebody like that, and that something or other is on display up there. No idea where, but you might call the South Thomaston library, which is open part time and just down the street from the Kittredge house. They might know something about what went where, or provide a clue you could follow. I don't know what they ended up doing with the house itself, either. Maybe it's a museum now, too. There is also a very nice transportation museum just up the road from George's house. (it might, in fact, be called the Owl's Head Transportation Museum, or something similar). Who knows? That little sub might have been painted up and put on display as a reminder of one of South Thomaston's most interesting and productive characters. Be a shame if it wasn't. And if the diesel sub modifications could be unearthed, I'm sure they would be a welcome addition to the psubbers archives. There will be prints, somewhere. George did a lot of them himself, but surely they were saved, and having been saved, might be rescued from obscurity. If it costs a bit, let me know. I'll chip in just for general interest, and perhaps others would, too. Also, Jon had some of the last dealings up there, and might have an idea or two about how you (or we) could track things down. Vance -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 6:10 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust Hi Greg\All, Does anyone have any more info on Georges diesel subs? I have his book and i dont recall any mention of them, though i could be mistaken, its a while since i read it. I'd just be interested to see more info. Were they K type designs? Or something else? Thanks james On 11 October 2013 13:03, greg cottrell wrote: Captain Kittredge built a couple of diesel subs that worked very well. In his design, exhaust went straight down into the water at the bottom of the hull. The exhaust exit was directly behind what looked like a "v" shaped steel skeg that created a low pressure area when the sub was moving forward. The low pressure area reduced back pressure on the exhaust. Incidentally, one of George's customers bought a diesel sub from him but took it down one time without closing the exhaust valve. Water entered one of the cylinders in the diesel and bent either the crank or the rods when he tried to start the engine. Greg From: Marc de Piolenc To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't have a sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of thought. My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, the power penalty would be minimal. Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. Marc de Piolenc On 10/11/2013 1:45 AM, Land N Sea wrote: > I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat > and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I > did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little > taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesn?t have the dome so I > hopefully won?t have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome > but I was thinking about Emile?s clear acrylic fairing as an option when > I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. > It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as > Florida so I will probably be trying Phil?s idea of the frozen pouches > vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my > scrubber blowing against it. -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Fri Oct 11 18:52:53 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 18:52:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kittredge memorial In-Reply-To: <1381527335.88094.YahooMailNeo@web121901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381493031.12104.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D094AF2E61A2BB-2174-15B6C@webmail-m175.sysops.aol.com> <1381526523.71058.YahooMailNeo@web121906.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1381527335.88094.YahooMailNeo@web121901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D094EBC0D39740-9F4-1B38F@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> That looks to be across the road from the little store with the great lobster rolls and the nautical art place. For the uninitiated, the church in the background is the one Mrs. Captain Kittredge attended, and just over the forward main ballast tank is George's old shop. If you look carefully, you can see the marine railway. Vance -----Original Message----- From: greg cottrell To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 2:36 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kittredge memorial You can see the Kittredge memorial sub on this link: http://progress-is-fine.blogspot.com/2012/09/personal-submarines.html Greg From: greg cottrell To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 5:22 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust Vance, I can confirm that the sub that George intended to be diesel powered was cleaned and painted through the efforts of his friend Ian and local business and put on display as a memorial to George. Greg From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust James, I think the diesel subs were mentioned in passing in George's autobiography, rather than in detail. They were K-subs, one 500-foot capable that went to Alaska for a recently retired super tanker Captain. He had another one (the third?) unfinished sitting in the weeds by the shop when I was last there which I half remember was a K-250. All I really remember about that one is that the aft elliptical head was flanged and bolted to the hull cylinder for access to the diesel, and had the underwater exhaust like a WW II sub and a snorkel for the engine. That was going to be the Skipper's next personal sub, but he got sidetracked when he reacquired the K-600. He never finished the diesel sub that I know of, and I don't have any idea what happened to it in any case. I do know that the family house and archives were donated to the Owl's Head township or the county historical society or somebody like that, and that something or other is on display up there. No idea where, but you might call the South Thomaston library, which is open part time and just down the street from the Kittredge house. They might know something about what went where, or provide a clue you could follow. I don't know what they ended up doing with the house itself, either. Maybe it's a museum now, too. There is also a very nice transportation museum just up the road from George's house. (it might, in fact, be called the Owl's Head Transportation Museum, or something similar). Who knows? That little sub might have been painted up and put on display as a reminder of one of South Thomaston's most interesting and productive characters. Be a shame if it wasn't. And if the diesel sub modifications could be unearthed, I'm sure they would be a welcome addition to the psubbers archives. There will be prints, somewhere. George did a lot of them himself, but surely they were saved, and having been saved, might be rescued from obscurity. If it costs a bit, let me know. I'll chip in just for general interest, and perhaps others would, too. Also, Jon had some of the last dealings up there, and might have an idea or two about how you (or we) could track things down. Vance -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 6:10 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust Hi Greg\All, Does anyone have any more info on Georges diesel subs? I have his book and i dont recall any mention of them, though i could be mistaken, its a while since i read it. I'd just be interested to see more info. Were they K type designs? Or something else? Thanks james On 11 October 2013 13:03, greg cottrell wrote: Captain Kittredge built a couple of diesel subs that worked very well. In his design, exhaust went straight down into the water at the bottom of the hull. The exhaust exit was directly behind what looked like a "v" shaped steel skeg that created a low pressure area when the sub was moving forward. The low pressure area reduced back pressure on the exhaust. Incidentally, one of George's customers bought a diesel sub from him but took it down one time without closing the exhaust valve. Water entered one of the cylinders in the diesel and bent either the crank or the rods when he tried to start the engine. Greg From: Marc de Piolenc To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't have a sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of thought. My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, the power penalty would be minimal. Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. Marc de Piolenc On 10/11/2013 1:45 AM, Land N Sea wrote: > I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat > and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I > did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little > taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesn?t have the dome so I > hopefully won?t have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome > but I was thinking about Emile?s clear acrylic fairing as an option when > I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. > It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as > Florida so I will probably be trying Phil?s idea of the frozen pouches > vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my > scrubber blowing against it. -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 20:12:28 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 17:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <38EBC9BF-2225-4F39-8B8C-7E61E59670B3@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381536748.42011.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Although it would be nice to blame my wife entirely, Family obligations are the reason I didn't attend.

What I envy about you Alan, is your apparent ability to trek the globe as easy as I walk down the hall.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 20:34:04 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 17:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kittredge memorial In-Reply-To: <8D094EBC0D39740-9F4-1B38F@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1381538044.45211.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Like a postcard, the shop and rail reminds me of commodore Monroe's home "The Barnacle" here in Miami... what a place!

The hull looks like it has an extra section, and either those pods are slimmer or the hull is wider.

Joe



Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Fri Oct 11 20:47:58 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 20:47:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kittredge memorial In-Reply-To: <1381538044.45211.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381538044.45211.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D094FBD4931184-DBC-1B4F5@webmail-d291.sysops.aol.com> The pods are full of concrete. Batteries inside. That extra section is the bolt-up flange to break her down for access to the motor. Earlier versions had a direct drive prop for surface work. Maybe this one was just going to be a generator to run the motors on the surface and charge batteries at the same time? The top hatch was probably stuck on in place of the original acrylic hemi, which was most likely trashed by the weather. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 5:34 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kittredge memorial Like a postcard, the shop and rail reminds me of commodore Monroe's home "The Barnacle" here in Miami... what a place! The hull looks like it has an extra section, and either those pods are slimmer or the hull is wider. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: vbra676539 at aol.com ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kittredge memorial Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 10:52:53 PM That looks to be across the road from the little store with the great lobster rolls and the nautical art place. For the uninitiated, the church in the background is the one Mrs. Captain Kittredge attended, and just over the forward main ballast tank is George's old shop. If you look carefully, you can see the marine railway. Vance -----Original Message----- From: greg cottrell To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 2:36 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kittredge memorial You can see the Kittredge memorial sub on this link: http://progress-is-fine.blogspot.com/2012/09/personal-submarines.html Greg From: greg cottrell To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 5:22 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust Vance, I can confirm that the sub that George intended to be diesel powered was cleaned and painted through the efforts of his friend Ian and local business and put on display as a memorial to George. Greg From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust James, I think the diesel subs were mentioned in passing in George's autobiography, rather than in detail. They were K-subs, one 500-foot capable that went to Alaska for a recently retired super tanker Captain. He had another one (the third?) unfinished sitting in the weeds by the shop when I was last there which I half remember was a K-250. All I really remember about that one is that the aft elliptical head was flanged and bolted to the hull cylinder for access to the diesel, and had the underwater exhaust like a WW II sub and a snorkel for the engine. That was going to be the Skipper's next personal sub, but he got sidetracked when he reacquired the K-600. He never finished the diesel sub that I know of, and I don't have any idea what happened to it in any case. I do know that the family house and archives were donated to the Owl's Head township or the county historical society or somebody like that, and that something or other is on display up there. No idea where, but you might call the South Thomaston library, which is open part time and just down the street from the Kittredge house. They might know something about what went where, or provide a clue you could follow. I don't know what they ended up doing with the house itself, either. Maybe it's a museum now, too. There is also a very nice transportation museum just up the road from George's house. (it might, in fact, be called the Owl's Head Transportation Museum, or something similar). Who knows? That little sub might have been painted up and put on display as a reminder of one of South Thomaston's most interesting and productive characters. Be a shame if it wasn't. And if the diesel sub modifications could be unearthed, I'm sure they would be a welcome addition to the psubbers archives. There will be prints, somewhere. George did a lot of them himself, but surely they were saved, and having been saved, might be rescued from obscurity. If it costs a bit, let me know. I'll chip in just for general interest, and perhaps others would, too. Also, Jon had some of the last dealings up there, and might have an idea or two about how you (or we) could track things down. Vance -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 6:10 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust Hi Greg\All, Does anyone have any more info on Georges diesel subs? I have his book and i dont recall any mention of them, though i could be mistaken, its a while since i read it. I'd just be interested to see more info. Were they K type designs? Or something else? Thanks james On 11 October 2013 13:03, greg cottrell wrote: Captain Kittredge built a couple of diesel subs that worked very well. In his design, exhaust went straight down into the water at the bottom of the hull. The exhaust exit was directly behind what looked like a "v" shaped steel skeg that created a low pressure area when the sub was moving forward. The low pressure area reduced back pressure on the exhaust. Incidentally, one of George's customers bought a diesel sub from him but took it down one time without closing the exhaust valve. Water entered one of the cylinders in the diesel and bent either the crank or the rods when he tried to start the engine. Greg From: Marc de Piolenc To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't have a sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of thought. My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, the power penalty would be minimal. Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. Marc de Piolenc On 10/11/2013 1:45 AM, Land N Sea wrote: > I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat > and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I > did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little > taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesn?t have the dome so I > hopefully won?t have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome > but I was thinking about Emile?s clear acrylic fairing as an option when > I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. > It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as > Florida so I will probably be trying Phil?s idea of the frozen pouches > vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my > scrubber blowing against it. -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 22:00:31 2013 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 19:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust In-Reply-To: <8D094EB5BB4B92A-9F4-1B355@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1381543231.682.YahooMailBasic@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> The only documentation I know of is in the following publication (see page 10). http://www.psubs.org/reference/publications/kittredgesubmarines.pdf Kittredge controlled snorkel, exhaust, and cooling manually with valves. When I picked up the K600 there was little left of the estate. All the captain's tools and equipment had been removed and the house had been sold. The buyers of the house were not "kittredge-aware" and wanted the yard cleaned up quickly, and the executor was in a hurry to do just that. Transfer of the house to the new owners was occurring the next day and anything that wasn't picked up by myself or the neighbors went to the dump. There were a couple of old K250 ballast tanks laying around and a couple of fiberglass hemispheres (24 inch diameter) which I assumed were used as prototypes until Kittredge got his acrylic domes. I found the form Kittredge used for the K350 ballast tank and brought that home as well. I do not believe there was any diesel documentation but can't say for sure. I don't think George ever perfected diesel in the K-boats to his own satisfaction and he likely would not have created plans until he was satisfied with the prototyping. -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 10/11/13, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Date: Friday, October 11, 2013, 6:50 PM That makes it the last survivor up there. I wonder if we can track the kid and see if there was anything left of the drawings and whatnot. Vance From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 22:12:07 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 16:12:07 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <1381536748.42011.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381536748.42011.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Well Joe, I'll be grounding myself for a few years or I'll end up like one of these veteran surfy hippies they have in Hawaii; living on the Street. Couldn't resist taking a dive in the Atlantis tourist submarine this morning. Amazing control for such a large sub, there can't have been much current. There are two operating off Waikiki & one dives every hour. The area they dive Isn't that interesting apart from some ships & a plane they sunk, and another couple of artificial reefs. Alan Sent from my iPad On 11/10/2013, at 2:12 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > Although it would be nice to blame my wife entirely, Family obligations are the reason I didn't attend. > > What I envy about you Alan, is your apparent ability to trek the globe as easy as I walk down the hall. > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > From: Alan ; > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef > Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 7:20:02 PM > > Sorry that last email got sent off prematurely. > This Ipad is too small, or my fingers are too big. > Yes was married once. Don't think I'd have had a show of getting to the > Psub conference if I were still married. > Lovely water here & deep drop offs. I'm sure you will be posting some > awesome videos when the sub is finished. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 11/10/2013, at 9:14 AM, Alan wrote: > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Sat Oct 12 00:02:33 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 23:02:33 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Germany!!! Message-ID: Carsten, Looks like Katy and I are going to Germany in the end of September. Do you think there is a chance we could all meet up? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 00:38:06 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 18:38:06 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conference Message-ID: Hi Psubbers, Many thanks to everyone that made the conference such a great experience. Alec who I went down on the Auto train with from Washington ( & snoopy) & who transported me around quite a bit. Scott, Katy & Jon for the planning & organisation, & our interesting speakers. Doug & his family who showed amazing hospitality. One anonymous Psubber said if it were my wife she would have kicked us out after a day. A number of us arrived a couple of days early & camped at their holiday home. What an ideal submarine base. All those cranes for launching, a 30 ft deep canal to play in, garaging for working on the subs, boats to tow us out to sea, a great cook who served us lobster for lunch etc.etc. Alec & I felt we could have gone home feeling fulfilled, before the conference had started. It was great to catch up with people I had got to know on line for the last 4 or 5 years. I endorse what someone said earlier about how important it is to attend if you are going to build or in the process. Seeing the subs, riding in them & being involved in the towing was such a good learning experience. There were a few technical glitches that were a good insight at the expense of the sub owners. Emails can take me ages so it was great to yack & get through a lot of stuff in a short time. I've come back with some pretty significant ideas that I'll look in to. If you are going to build a sub that may cost $20,000 or upward, the investment in travelling to conference to gain some experience & to net work, is money well spent. It didn't end at conference for me as I was treated to a tour round San Francisco, & a meal, by David & Wy when there. Very beautiful city. ( when the fog rolls away) Had a great time, thanks everyone. Alan Sent from my iPad From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 01:26:39 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 19:26:39 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic Casting Message-ID: While in San Francisco I looked up Bruce Beasley's contact details. He is one of Americas pre- eminent sculptures & a pioneer in casting thick sectioned acrylic. I thought I was heading to his gallery but it ended up being his home & studio. For those who are unfamiliar with the story, Bruce was attracted to acrylic as a sculpting medium but no one had cast it more than two inches thick. He managed to cast a 4" thick model of a proposed 13ft x 4ft art work that he submitted for a competition for a State of California public sculpture. The judges awarded him the prize & finance to built it. Unbeknown to them the technology to make it didn't exist. Du Pont the acrylic manufacturer told Bruce they couldn't offer him technical assistance as he had already exceeded what their chemists could achieve, but would supply him the raw product free. He observed the formation of bubbles in the polymerising acrylic through windows in an autoclave & discovered how to eliminate them & the cracking, that were the Achilles heel of the process. 2 castings later he created The 13ft x 4ft casting. He said if he hadn't have made it he could have been sued. It was at that point that Jerry Stachiw from the U.S. navy approached him to make thick acrylic spheres for deep diving submersibles. There were several failures before success & the price tag on these failures was the equivalent of a new VW. Anyway he ushered me in to his living room & chatted away. I have a background in art so we related well, & he ended up giving me a book which was a retrospective of his sculpture, including the story of his acrylic sculpture. I think he was quite impressed that someone from N.Z. knew his story & had tracked him down. He still has the secrets to manufacturing large castings if anyone wants to purchase the technology. So again I've been totally spoilt. Alan Sent from my iPad From MerlinSub at t-online.de Sat Oct 12 07:07:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 12 Oct 2013 11:07 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Germany!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1VUx3t-2ITX6G0@fwd00.t-online.de> End of September.. - 2014? End of October 2013 I will be here - vbr Carsten "swaters" schrieb: Carsten, Looks like Katy and I are going to Germany in the end of September. Do you think there is a chance we could all meet up? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piolenc at archivale.com Sat Oct 12 07:34:37 2013 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 19:34:37 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust In-Reply-To: <1VUgbd-1B4KkS0@fwd10.t-online.de> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381493031.12104.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VUgbd-1B4KkS0@fwd10.t-online.de> Message-ID: <525933CD.1070809@archivale.com> My thought was to employ the snorkel only on the surface, and only to prevent waves from swamping a lower air intake trunk. That would also keep back-pressure on the diesel exhaust from becoming an issue. Basically, I would never deliberately undertake operations in anything but fine weather, but for the unforeseen would specify Sea State 3. Best, Marc On 10/12/2013 1:33 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote: > Hi Marc, > > before I response in detail, which size should the sub have? And which > range? > > And which kind of wave high, wave length and weather you want to survife > on the surface? > Any concept sketch? Do you like to snorckel with the sub? > > Euronaut has more problems with the short medium high wave in the baltic > than with the high but long waves in the north sea. > > Bad weather in the north sea lift the hole boat before the wave reach > the sail, but in the Baltic the waves are > shorter and did mot lift the boat so much - as result the sail goes very > wet. Like in the movie "Das Boot" > > Short wave in the baltic: > http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/operational/IMG_8705.jpg > > Here the over waterline exhaust of Euronaut in operation. > The funny sound comes from a wave flap close to the end of the exhaust > which goes up and down at idlle speed. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT7i05s92ak > > Cooling is also something you should have in mind. > > And noise.. > > And.. > > vbr Carsten > > > *From:* Marc de Piolenc > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Thursday, October 10, 2013 10:15 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef > > I've been following this discussion with great interest. I > don't have a > sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold > current > handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air > temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot > of thought. > > My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make > it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will > need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, > and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving > while > doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air > conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I > realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have > the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air > in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of > running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the > solution that > I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure > means of > preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I > can't > quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions > in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust > flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming > in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort > would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, > the power penalty would be minimal. > > Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval > submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity > must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way > to do > it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from > asphyxiation. > > Marc de Piolenc > > -- > > Carsten Standfu? > Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik > Heinrich Reck Str.12A > 18211 Admannshagen > > 0172 8464 420 > WWW.Euronaut.org > Carsten at euronaut.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From piolenc at archivale.com Sat Oct 12 07:40:29 2013 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 19:40:29 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <1VUgxh-3vjvkm0@fwd14.t-online.de> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381510680.87759.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VUgxh-3vjvkm0@fwd14.t-online.de> Message-ID: <5259352D.7030409@archivale.com> My thinking exactly in planning air intake into the cabin, drawn by and into the engine. Good point about residual heat when diving. My only "solution" to this would be to provide a thermosiphon loop that would continue cooling the engine's heat exchanger while diving, but that would of course mean that the whole heat exchanger system would have to be built to withstand full dive depth. Not very satisfactory. I suppose one could either close off the engine compartment while diving or just spend some time on the surface prior to diving to allow the heat to dissipate. Marc On 10/12/2013 1:56 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote: > Breathing air for the diesel engine from inside the cabin is very common > to clean the cabin air. Air goes in the cabin via the open hatch. > > It also remove the little leaks from the exhaust and the oil dust. And > works very well on the surface. > In Euronaut the diesel air inlet is from the battery bilge compartment > to vent also the battery gases during charing them on the surface run. -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From piolenc at archivale.com Sat Oct 12 07:46:26 2013 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 19:46:26 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust In-Reply-To: <52585f72.a700420a.3855.643d@mx.google.com> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381493031.12104.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VUgbd-1B4KkS0@fwd10.t-online.de> <52585f72.a700420a.3855.643d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <52593692.3090202@archivale.com> Now THAT is a thoroughly thought-out solution. One for the archive... Thanks for taking the time to explain this. Best, Marc On 10/12/2013 4:28 AM, Hugh Fulton wrote: > Hi Marc, > > I am in the final throes of finishing twin engine driven 2 man and I > have opted for the following: > > 2 x 2? Snorkels with plastic float valves leading into the cabin through > 2 x 2? combination valves being manual ball valves coupled to air > actuated shuttle valves and fitted with non return valves. > > This means that the non return valves will vent overpressure situation > on the surface and blow out through the snorkel float valves. > > The snorkels are located inside an airbox leading into the boat part > which has about 4 cubic meters of air volume so that if I go through a > wave the float valve does not get to close and the air is drawn from the > ?air box? volume for a brief period. > > The air is then drawn from the cabin again through 2 x combination > valves into the engine pressure chambers. The exhaust which also takes > a large portion of the engine cooling water goes through a raised > exhaust line above the water level then down through an air operated > shuttle valve and a non return valve exiting underwater through the > center of the propeller as per an outboard motor or stern leg. > According to the rules you should have 2 valves on the exhaust. I am > relying on the air drawn through the cabin for cooling and as most of > the cabin is protected by fiberglass I am hoping that it wont get too > much direct heating from the sun apart from through the domes. When the > air operated shuttle valves are closed ready for diving the engines will > pull a vacuum of approx 1-2 psi before shutting down. IF no vacuum > maintained then no dive and the engines keep running. All untested yet > but hoping I am only about 8 weeks away. Carsten?s system is all tested > and proven. Regards, Hugh > > *From:*Personal_Submersibles > [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of * > *Sent:* Saturday, 12 October 2013 6:33 a.m. > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust > > Hi Marc, > > before I response in detail, which size should the sub have? And which > range? > > And which kind of wave high, wave length and weather you want to survife > on the surface? > Any concept sketch? Do you like to snorckel with the sub? > > Euronaut has more problems with the short medium high wave in the baltic > than with the high but long waves in the north sea. > > Bad weather in the north sea lift the hole boat before the wave reach > the sail, but in the Baltic the waves are > shorter and did mot lift the boat so much - as result the sail goes very > wet. Like in the movie "Das Boot" > > Short wave in the baltic: > http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/operational/IMG_8705.jpg > > Here the over waterline exhaust of Euronaut in operation. > The funny sound comes from a wave flap close to the end of the exhaust > which goes up and down at idlle speed. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT7i05s92ak > > Cooling is also something you should have in mind. > > And noise.. > > And.. > > vbr Carsten > > *From:*Marc de Piolenc > > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > *Sent:* Thursday, October 10, 2013 10:15 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef > > > I've been following this discussion with great interest. I > don't have a > sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current > handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air > temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of > thought. > > My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make > it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will > need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, > and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while > doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air > conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I > realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have > the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air > in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of > running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that > I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of > preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't > quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions > in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust > flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming > in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort > would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, > the power penalty would be minimal. > > Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval > submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity > must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do > it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. > > Marc de Piolenc > > -- > > Carsten Standfu? > Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik > Heinrich Reck Str.12A > 18211 Admannshagen > > 0172 8464 420 > WWW.Euronaut.org > Carsten at euronaut.org > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 8903 (20131010) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 8903 (20131010) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 08:59:43 2013 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 05:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic Casting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1381582783.52726.YahooMailBasic@web140904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Nice job Alan. I always wondered where he was, he seemed to disappear after his work with Stachiw ended. We should see if he's interested in being a guest speaker for a future conference. -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 10/12/13, Alan wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic Casting To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Saturday, October 12, 2013, 1:26 AM While in San Francisco I looked up Bruce Beasley's contact details. He is one of Americas pre- eminent sculptures & a pioneer in casting thick sectioned acrylic. I thought I was heading to his gallery but it ended up being his home & studio. For those who are unfamiliar with the story, Bruce was attracted to acrylic as a sculpting medium but no one had cast it more than two inches thick. He managed to cast a 4" thick model of a proposed 13ft x 4ft art work that he submitted for a competition for a State of California public sculpture. The judges awarded him the prize & finance to built it. Unbeknown to them the technology to make it didn't exist. Du Pont the acrylic manufacturer told Bruce they couldn't offer him technical assistance as he had already exceeded what their chemists could achieve, but would supply him the raw product free. He observed the formation of bubbles in the polymerising acrylic through windows in an autoclave & discovered how to eliminate them & the cracking, that were the Achilles heel of the process. 2 castings later he created The 13ft x 4ft casting. He said if he hadn't have made it he could have been sued. It was at that point that Jerry Stachiw from the U.S. navy approached him to make thick acrylic spheres for deep diving submersibles. There were several failures before success & the price tag on these failures was the equivalent of a new VW. ???Anyway he ushered me in to his living room & chatted away. I have a background in art so we related well, & he ended up giving me a book which was a retrospective of his sculpture, including the story of his acrylic sculpture. I think he was quite impressed that someone from N.Z. knew his story & had tracked him down. He still has the secrets to manufacturing large castings if anyone wants to purchase the technology. So again I've been totally spoilt. Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From JimToddPsub at aol.com Sat Oct 12 09:08:48 2013 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 09:08:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic Casting Message-ID: <1039e6.26fe4e84.3f8aa3e0@aol.com> See Wikipedia for more on Bruce Beasley. Excerpt below: 1970s Fascinated by the esthetics of transparency, Beasley worked in cast acrylic for the next ten years. In 1974, members of the undersea research community approached Beasley to see if he could adapt his technique to cast transparent bathyspheres for undersea exploration. He succeeded in creating the bathyspheres for _Johnson Sea Link_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_Sea_Link) submersibles for _Harbor Branch Oceanographic Institute_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbor_Branch_Oceanographic_Institute) ._[6]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Beasley#cite_note-6) It was these submersibles that were deployed to locate the crew compartment on the bottom of the ocean after the Space Shuttle _Challenger_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Challenger) disintegrated upon liftoff in 1986. Beasley continued to make transparent sculpture for the next ten years. His transparent sculptures were exhibited widely both in the US and abroad including solo exhibitions in 1972 at the _DeYoung Museum_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeYoung_Museum) in San Francisco, the _Santa Barbara Museum of Art_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Barbara_Museum_of_Art) , the _San Diego Museum of Art_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Diego_Museum_of_Art) , and group shows including the _Salon de Mai_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salon_de_Mai) in Paris and at _Expo 70_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expo_70) in _Osaka_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka) , _Japan_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan) . In a message dated 10/12/2013 8:00:18 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jon.wallace at yahoo.com writes: Nice job Alan. I always wondered where he was, he seemed to disappear after his work with Stachiw ended. We should see if he's interested in being a guest speaker for a future conference. -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 10/12/13, Alan wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic Casting To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Saturday, October 12, 2013, 1:26 AM While in San Francisco I looked up Bruce Beasley's contact details. He is one of Americas pre- eminent sculptures & a pioneer in casting thick sectioned acrylic. I thought I was heading to his gallery but it ended up being his home & studio. For those who are unfamiliar with the story, Bruce was attracted to acrylic as a sculpting medium but no one had cast it more than two inches thick. He managed to cast a 4" thick model of a proposed 13ft x 4ft art work that he submitted for a competition for a State of California public sculpture. The judges awarded him the prize & finance to built it. Unbeknown to them the technology to make it didn't exist. Du Pont the acrylic manufacturer told Bruce they couldn't offer him technical assistance as he had already exceeded what their chemists could achieve, but would supply him the raw product free. He observed the formation of bubbles in the polymerising acrylic through windows in an autoclave & discovered how to eliminate them & the cracking, that were the Achilles heel of the process. 2 castings later he created The 13ft x 4ft casting. He said if he hadn't have made it he could have been sued. It was at that point that Jerry Stachiw from the U.S. navy approached him to make thick acrylic spheres for deep diving submersibles. There were several failures before success & the price tag on these failures was the equivalent of a new VW. Anyway he ushered me in to his living room & chatted away. I have a background in art so we related well, & he ended up giving me a book which was a retrospective of his sculpture, including the story of his acrylic sculpture. I think he was quite impressed that someone from N.Z. knew his story & had tracked him down. He still has the secrets to manufacturing large castings if anyone wants to purchase the technology. So again I've been totally spoilt. Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Oct 12 09:12:14 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 06:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic Casting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1381583534.56858.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, When you were on you awesome world tour, did you see a Biber Class submarine. Hank From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 11:26:39 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic Casting While in San Francisco I looked up Bruce Beasley's contact details. He is one of Americas pre- eminent sculptures & a pioneer in casting thick sectioned acrylic. I thought I was heading to his gallery but it ended up being his home & studio. For those who are unfamiliar with the story, Bruce was attracted to acrylic as a sculpting medium but no one had cast it more than two inches thick. He managed to cast a 4" thick model of a proposed 13ft x 4ft art work that he submitted for a competition for a State of California public sculpture. The judges awarded him the prize & finance to built it. Unbeknown to them the technology to make it didn't exist. Du Pont the acrylic manufacturer told Bruce they couldn't offer him technical assistance as he had already exceeded what their chemists could achieve, but would supply him the raw product free. He observed the formation of bubbles in the polymerising acrylic through windows in an autoclave & discovered how to eliminate them & the cracking, that were the Achilles heel of the process. 2 castings later he created The 13ft x 4ft casting. He said if he hadn't have made it he could have been sued. It was at that point that Jerry Stachiw from the U.S. navy approached him to make thick acrylic spheres for deep diving submersibles. There were several failures before success & the price tag on these failures was the equivalent of a new VW. ? Anyway he ushered me in to his living room & chatted away. I have a background in art so we related well, & he ended up giving me a book which was a retrospective of his sculpture, including the story of his acrylic sculpture. I think he was quite impressed that someone from N.Z. knew his story & had tracked him down. He still has the secrets to manufacturing large castings if anyone wants to purchase the technology. So again I've been totally spoilt. Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 10:13:45 2013 From: jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com (greg cottrell) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 07:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kittredge memorial In-Reply-To: <8D094EBC0D39740-9F4-1B38F@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381493031.12104.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D094AF2E61A2BB-2174-15B6C@webmail-m175.sysops.aol.com> <1381526523.71058.YahooMailNeo@web121906.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1381527335.88094.YahooMailNeo@web121901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D094EBC0D39740-9F4-1B38F@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1381587225.9584.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> It was meant to be direct drive. George had an 8 horse yanmar diesel set aside for it. Dan Lance and I helped him fix a throttle problem he had with the engine one time when we paid him a visit. George had a transmission for the engine as well because he said "you need reverse". ? The sub had an 24" x 12" tall x 1.5" thick?acrylic cylinder for viewing (made by "spec plastics" many years before). I believe Jon ended up with the cylinder. George also had a brand new 24" dome (made by yours truly) in case he decided not to go with the cylinder. I believe that Ian ended up with the pedal powered sub and the new dome (which I was glad to see because Ian was a great friend to George). ? In one of my last conversations with George, I asked him?how he was going to use the diesel sub when it was finished. His reply was simple- ? ?"Have you ever seen how scallops jump off the bottom when you disturb them? We'll, I was thinking that if I built a submarine with a hatch in the bottom, they might just jump in the submarine as I drive over top of them. So, I think I'll finish the diesel sub with a hatch in the bottom and drive over a bed of scallops to see if they jump inside". ? With a little more time I think he would have done it. ? Greg On Friday, October 11, 2013 6:52 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: That looks to be across the road from the little store with the great lobster rolls and the nautical art place. For the uninitiated, the church in the background is the one Mrs. Captain Kittredge attended, and just over the forward main ballast tank is George's old shop. If you look carefully, you can see the marine railway. Vance -----Original Message----- From: greg cottrell To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 2:36 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kittredge memorial You can see the Kittredge memorial sub on this link: http://progress-is-fine.blogspot.com/2012/09/personal-submarines.html Greg ________________________________ From: greg cottrell To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 5:22 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust Vance, I can confirm that the sub that George intended to be diesel powered was cleaned and painted through the efforts of his friend Ian and local business and put on display as a memorial to George. Greg ? ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust James, I think the diesel subs were mentioned in passing in George's autobiography, rather than in detail. They were K-subs, one 500-foot capable that went to Alaska for a recently retired super tanker Captain. He had another one (the third?) unfinished?sitting in the weeds by the shop when I was last there which I half remember was a K-250. ? All I really remember about that one?is that the aft elliptical?head was flanged and bolted to the hull cylinder?for access to the diesel, and had the underwater exhaust like a WW II sub and a snorkel for the engine.?That was going to be?the Skipper's?next personal sub, but he got sidetracked when?he reacquired the K-600. He never finished the diesel sub that I know of, and I don't have any idea what happened to it in any case. ? I do know that the family house and archives were donated to the Owl's Head township or the county historical society?or somebody like that,?and that something or other is on display up there. No idea where, but you might call the South Thomaston library, which is open part time and just down the street from the Kittredge house. They might know something about what went where, or provide a clue you could follow. I don't know what they ended up doing with the house itself, either. Maybe it's a museum now, too. ? There is also a very nice transportation museum just up the road from George's house. (it might, in fact, be called the Owl's Head Transportation Museum, or something similar).?Who knows? That little sub might have been painted up and put on display as a reminder of one of South Thomaston's most interesting and productive characters.?Be a shame if it wasn't. ? And if the diesel sub modifications could be unearthed, I'm sure they would be a welcome addition to the psubbers archives.?There will be prints, somewhere. George did a lot of them himself, but surely they were saved, and having been saved, might be rescued from obscurity. If it costs a bit, let me know. I'll chip in just for general interest, and perhaps others would, too. Also, Jon had some of the last dealings up there, and might have an idea or two about how you (or we) could track things down. ? Vance -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 6:10 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust Hi Greg\All, Does anyone have any more info on Georges diesel subs?? I have his book and i dont recall any mention of them, though i could be mistaken, its a while since i read it.? I'd just be interested to see more info.? Were they K type designs?? Or something else? Thanks james On 11 October 2013 13:03, greg cottrell wrote: >Captain Kittredge built a couple of diesel subs that worked very well. In his design, exhaust went straight down into the water at the bottom of the hull. The exhaust exit was directly behind what looked like a "v" shaped steel skeg that created a low pressure area when the sub was moving forward. The low pressure area reduced back pressure on the exhaust. > >Incidentally, one of George's customers bought a diesel sub from him but took it down one time without closing the exhaust valve. Water entered one of the cylinders in the diesel and bent either the crank or the rods when he tried to start the engine. > >Greg > > > > From: Marc de Piolenc >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 10:15 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef > > >I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't have a >sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current >handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air >temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of thought. > >My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make >it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will >need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, >and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while >doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air >conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I >realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have >the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air >in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of >running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that >I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of >preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't >quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions >in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust >flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming >in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort >would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, >the power penalty would be minimal. > >Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval >submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity >must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do >it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. > >Marc de Piolenc > >On 10/11/2013 1:45 AM, Land N Sea wrote: >> I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat >> and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I >> did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little >> taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesn?t have the dome so I >> hopefully won?t have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome >> but I was thinking about Emile?s clear acrylic fairing as an option when >> I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. >> It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as >> Florida so I will probably be trying Phil?s idea of the frozen pouches >> vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my >> scrubber blowing against it. >-- >Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 12:11:24 2013 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 09:11:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kittredge memorial In-Reply-To: <1381587225.9584.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381594284.88186.YahooMailBasic@web140905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I forgot about the acrylic cylinder. It was headed to the dump because they didn't know what it was. I told the executor that I'd see if anyone in the group wanted to purchase it. Kyle Edlund owns it now. -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 10/12/13, greg cottrell wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kittredge memorial To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Saturday, October 12, 2013, 10:13 AM It was meant to be direct drive. George had an 8 horse yanmar diesel set aside for it. Dan Lance and I helped him fix a throttle problem he had with the engine one time when we paid him a visit. George had a transmission for the engine as well because he said "you need reverse".?The sub had an 24" x 12" tall x 1.5" thick?acrylic cylinder for viewing (made by "spec plastics" many years before). I believe Jon ended up with the cylinder. George also had a brand new 24" dome (made by yours truly) in case he decided not to go with the cylinder. I believe that Ian ended up with the pedal powered sub and the new dome (which I was glad to see because Ian was a great friend to George).?In one of my last conversations with George, I asked him?how he was going to use the diesel sub when it was finished. His reply was simple- ??"Have you ever seen how scallops jump off the bottom when you disturb them? We'll, I was thinking that if I built a submarine with a hatch in the bottom, they might just jump in the submarine as I drive over top of them. So, I think I'll finish the diesel sub with a hatch in the bottom and drive over a bed of scallops to see if they jump inside".?With a little more time I think he would have done it.?Greg On Friday, October 11, 2013 6:52 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: That looks to be across the road from the little store with the great lobster rolls and the nautical art place. For the uninitiated, the church in the background is the one Mrs. Captain Kittredge attended, and just over the forward main ballast tank is George's old shop. If you look carefully, you can see the marine railway. Vance -----Original Message----- From: greg cottrell To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 2:36 pm Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kittredge memorial You can see the Kittredge memorial sub on this link: ? http://progress-is-fine.blogspot.com/2012/09/personal-submarines.html ? Greg ? ? ? ? From: greg cottrell To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 5:22 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust Vance, ? I can confirm that the sub that George intended to be diesel powered was cleaned and painted through the efforts of his friend Ian and local business and put on display as a memorial to George. ? Greg ? ? ? From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 11, 2013 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust James, ? I think the diesel subs were mentioned in passing in George's autobiography, rather than in detail. They were K-subs, one 500-foot capable that went to Alaska for a recently retired super tanker Captain. He had another one (the third?) unfinished?sitting in the weeds by the shop when I was last there which I half remember was a K-250. ? All I really remember about that one?is that the aft elliptical?head was flanged and bolted to the hull cylinder?for access to the diesel, and had the underwater exhaust like a WW II sub and a snorkel for the engine.?That was going to be?the Skipper's?next personal sub, but he got sidetracked when?he reacquired the K-600. He never finished the diesel sub that I know of, and I don't have any idea what happened to it in any case. ? I do know that the family house and archives were donated to the Owl's Head township or the county historical society?or somebody like that,?and that something or other is on display up there. No idea where, but you might call the South Thomaston library, which is open part time and just down the street from the Kittredge house. They might know something about what went where, or provide a clue you could follow. I don't know what they ended up doing with the house itself, either. Maybe it's a museum now, too. ? There is also a very nice transportation museum just up the road from George's house. (it might, in fact, be called the Owl's Head Transportation Museum, or something similar).?Who knows? That little sub might have been painted up and put on display as a reminder of one of South Thomaston's most interesting and productive characters.?Be a shame if it wasn't. ? And if the diesel sub modifications could be unearthed, I'm sure they would be a welcome addition to the psubbers archives.?There will be prints, somewhere. George did a lot of them himself, but surely they were saved, and having been saved, might be rescued from obscurity. If it costs a bit, let me know. I'll chip in just for general interest, and perhaps others would, too. Also, Jon had some of the last dealings up there, and might have an idea or two about how you (or we) could track things down. ? Vance -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Oct 11, 2013 6:10 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Exhaust Hi Greg\All, ? Does anyone have any more info on Georges diesel subs?? I have his book and i dont recall any mention of them, though i could be mistaken, its a while since i read it.? I'd just be interested to see more info.? Were they K type designs?? Or something else? Thanks james On 11 October 2013 13:03, greg cottrell wrote: Captain Kittredge built a couple of diesel subs that worked very well. In his design, exhaust went straight down into the water at the bottom of the hull. The exhaust exit was directly behind what looked like a "v" shaped steel skeg that created a low pressure area when the sub was moving forward. The low pressure area reduced back pressure on the exhaust. ? Incidentally, one of George's customers bought a diesel sub from him but took it down one time without closing the exhaust valve. Water entered one of the cylinders in the diesel and bent either the crank or the rods when he tried to start the engine. ? Greg ? ? ? From: Marc de Piolenc To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef I've been following this discussion with great interest. I don't have a sub yet, but I do live in the Tropics, and as there's no cold current handy to where I live any subbing I do will be in water pretty near air temperature. As you might expect, I've given this problem a lot of thought. My tentative conclusion is that, if I build a sub, I will have to make it more autonomous than is the rule on this list. Specifically, it will need a combustion engine to ferry itself on the surface to dive sites, and to maintain comfort and keep the battery topped off for diving while doing so. I started with the assumption that I would need an air conditioning unit running off a small industrial diesel, but then I realized that, if I use a snorkel exhausting into the cabin, and have the diesel draw air from the cabin, I get continuous renewal of the air in the cabin without the cost, power burden and safety problems of running a Rankine cycle refrigeration system. That's the solution that I've retained for the moment. Of course I also need a secure means of preventing exhaust gas from being aspirated into the snorkel (I can't quite understand how naval submarines manage to combine both functions in one mast), but that might be as simple as having the diesel exhaust flush with the hull, with some arrangement to prevent water from coming in. Since the diesel would only be used on the surface, and the snort would only be there to allow a low-freeboard hatch to be kept closed, the power penalty would be minimal. Fuel storage, fuel feed and the like still have to be worked out. Naval submarines have very complex arrangements for this, and that complexity must be tolerated for a good reason. Even so, I need a simpler way to do it that still protects the fuel from contamination and me from asphyxiation. Marc de Piolenc On 10/11/2013 1:45 AM, Land N Sea wrote: > I have been out of the loop for 5 weeks on the mainland on my sailboat > and I should of read all the emails before responding when I got back. I > did view the great footage and noticed that my tower looked a little > taller (good for water ingress) and of course doesn?t have the dome so I > hopefully won?t have quite as bad of a heat problem as one with the dome > but I was thinking about Emile?s clear acrylic fairing as an option when > I heard about the water egress problems with a three foot chop. > It does get pretty hot here and we are about the same latitude as > Florida so I will probably be trying Phil?s idea of the frozen pouches > vest and or the gallon of frozen water and have the air coming out of my > scrubber blowing against it. -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From MerlinSub at t-online.de Sat Oct 12 12:35:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 12 Oct 2013 16:35 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Psubs In-Reply-To: <5259352D.7030409@archivale.com> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381510680.87759.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VUgxh-3vjvkm0@fwd14.t-online.de> <5259352D.7030409@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1VV2Aw-4WJR2m0@fwd13.t-online.de> Marc exact that.. - Close the door of the engine compartment helps. - stay a time on the surface before diving helps also -but not so much. On a close enviroment like a submarine the machinery is still hand warm on the next day.. - The pressure tight cooling system is exact what I did. But for other reasons. A normal boats diesel cooling has a internal freshwater cecurit with a pump on the engine for the freshwater. than a heat exchanger between the interank freshwater and the external seawater and a seawater pump for the external seawater cecurit. For saftey reason I go for a single loop. Means only the freshwater sytem but running to the outside pipes and pressure tight. Caleld "keel cooling system" here. Many fishing vessel here have aht simple system. Only one pump, no heat exchanger and no vales to close before diving on the cooling system. Of course there are two valves - but just for emergency closing if the outside pipe system is damage - very unusual by angle bar pipes made of one inch strong steel. In general the system can be use to cool the engine block down. But my freswater pump is direct driven by the diesel via a belt and will not operate underwater. And I think it is wrong to cool the diesel down that way - maybe you need his force short after surfacing. On a psub size sub it makes sence to run the diesel just as electric powergenerator in his own sound box. Purchase of the shelf ready with all auxillariy systems. On a bigger sub like Euronaut it may mmakes more sences for a direct diesel driven propeller gear with a auxillery generator to load the batteries and drive the baot underwater. vbr Carsten "Marc de Piolenc" schrieb: > My thinking exactly in planning air intake into the cabin, drawn by and > into the engine. > > Good point about residual heat when diving. My only "solution" to this > would be to provide a thermosiphon loop that would continue cooling the > engine's heat exchanger while diving, but that would of course mean that > the whole heat exchanger system would have to be built to withstand full > dive depth. Not very satisfactory. I suppose one could either close off > the engine compartment while diving or just spend some time on the > surface prior to diving to allow the heat to dissipate. > > Marc > > On 10/12/2013 1:56 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote: > > Breathing air for the diesel engine from inside the cabin is very common > > to clean the cabin air. Air goes in the cabin via the open hatch. > > > > It also remove the little leaks from the exhaust and the oil dust. And > > works very well on the surface. > > In Euronaut the diesel air inlet is from the battery bilge compartment > > to vent also the battery gases during charing them on the surface run. > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Oct 12 14:06:47 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 11:06:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Psubs In-Reply-To: <1VV2Aw-4WJR2m0@fwd13.t-online.de> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381510680.87759.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VUgxh-3vjvkm0@fwd14.t-online.de> <5259352D.7030409@archivale.com> <1VV2Aw-4WJR2m0@fwd13.t-online.de> Message-ID: <1381601207.65166.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I have been toying with the idea of a small air cooled engine that I can remove from an air tight compartment inside the sub.? I would place it on the deck outside the sub and it could charge batteries on the fly.? Not good in rough water, but it could extend the range of the sub.? I think a 6hp motor could drive a 24v 70a alternator and it would fit through the hatch easily. I used to charge the batteries in my orange sub that way because the sub was moored full time. Hank From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 10:35:00 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Psubs Marc exact that.. - Close the door of the engine compartment helps. - stay a time on the surface before diving helps also -but not so much.? ??? On a close enviroment like a submarine the machinery is still hand warm on the next day.. - The pressure tight cooling system is exact what I did. But for other reasons. ? A normal boats diesel cooling has a internal freshwater cecurit with a pump on the engine for the freshwater. ? than a heat exchanger between the interank freshwater and the external seawater and a seawater pump for the external seawater cecurit.? ?For saftey reason I?go for a single loop. Means only the freshwater sytem but running to the outside pipes and pressure tight. Caleld "keel cooling system" here.?Many fishing vessel here have aht simple system.?Only one pump, no heat exchanger and no vales to close before diving on the cooling system. Of course there are two valves -?but?just for emergency closing if the outside pipe system is damage - very unusual by angle bar pipes made of one inch strong steel.? ?In general the system can be use to cool the engine block down. But my freswater pump is direct driven by the diesel via a? belt and will not operate underwater. And I think it is wrong to cool the diesel down that way - maybe you need his force short after surfacing. On a psub size sub it makes sence to run the diesel just as electric powergenerator in his own sound box. Purchase of the shelf ready with all auxillariy systems. On a bigger sub like Euronaut it may mmakes more sences for a direct diesel driven propeller gear with a auxillery generator to load the batteries and drive the baot underwater. vbr Carsten "Marc de Piolenc" schrieb: > My thinking exactly in planning air intake into the cabin, drawn by and > into the engine. > > Good point about residual heat when diving. My only "solution" to this > would be to provide a thermosiphon loop that would continue cooling the > engine's heat exchanger while diving, but that would of course mean that > the whole heat exchanger system would have to be built to withstand full > dive depth. Not very satisfactory. I suppose one could either close off > the engine compartment while diving or just spend some time on the > surface prior to diving to allow the heat to dissipate. > > Marc > > On 10/12/2013 1:56 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote: > > Breathing air for the diesel engine from inside the cabin is very common > > to clean the cabin air. Air goes in the cabin via the open hatch. > > > > It also remove the little leaks from the exhaust and the oil dust. And > > works very well on the surface. > > In Euronaut the diesel air inlet is from the battery bilge compartment > > to vent also the battery gases during charing them on the surface run. > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ? -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 15:56:55 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 09:56:55 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic Casting In-Reply-To: <1381582783.52726.YahooMailBasic@web140904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381582783.52726.YahooMailBasic@web140904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Jon & Hank, Firstly Hank, no I didn't come across any Biber class submarines. Regarding Bruce; After his success with acrylic he started an acrylic business, however his partner got out of it & set up his own company. He was a bit hard done by. At some point he chose to pursue art rather than a business career. He is a good friend of Phil Nuytten. They both have a strong interest in Native American art. If we had a conference on the West coast you might be able to talk him in to speaking. It certainly is an interesting story. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/10/2013, at 2:59 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > Nice job Alan. I always wondered where he was, he seemed to disappear after his work with Stachiw ended. We should see if he's interested in being a guest speaker for a future conference. > > -------------------------------------------- > On Sat, 10/12/13, Alan wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic Casting > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > Date: Saturday, October 12, 2013, 1:26 AM > > While in San Francisco I looked up > Bruce Beasley's contact details. > He is one of Americas pre- eminent sculptures & a > pioneer in casting thick sectioned acrylic. > I thought I was heading to his gallery but it ended up being > his home & studio. > For those who are unfamiliar with the story, Bruce was > attracted to acrylic as a sculpting > medium but no one had cast it more than two inches thick. He > managed to cast a 4" thick > model of a proposed 13ft x 4ft art work that he submitted > for a competition for a State of California public > sculpture. The judges awarded him the prize & finance to > built it. Unbeknown > to them the technology to make it didn't exist. > Du Pont the acrylic manufacturer told Bruce they couldn't > offer him technical assistance as he had already exceeded > what their chemists could achieve, but would supply him the > raw product free. > He observed the formation of bubbles in the polymerising > acrylic through windows in an autoclave & discovered how > to eliminate them & the cracking, that were the Achilles > heel of the process. 2 castings later he created The 13ft x > 4ft casting. He said if he hadn't have made it he could have > been sued. > It was at that point that Jerry Stachiw from the U.S. navy > approached him to make thick acrylic spheres for deep diving > submersibles. There were several failures before success > & the price tag on these failures was the equivalent of > a new VW. > Anyway he ushered me in to his living room > & chatted away. I have a background in art > so we related well, & he ended up giving me a book which > was a retrospective of his sculpture, > including the story of his acrylic sculpture. I think he was > quite impressed that someone from N.Z. > knew his story & had tracked him down. > He still has the secrets to manufacturing large castings if > anyone wants to purchase the technology. > So again I've been totally spoilt. > Alan > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From piolenc at archivale.com Sat Oct 12 19:43:48 2013 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 07:43:48 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Psubs In-Reply-To: <1VV2Aw-4WJR2m0@fwd13.t-online.de> References: <5250fd5c.c48e420a.2392.ffffb961@mx.google.com> <06A3B653D8EC427D845AEA96F2DFDEA2@LandNSeaPC> <52575F50.70905@archivale.com> <1381510680.87759.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1VUgxh-3vjvkm0@fwd14.t-online.de> <5259352D.7030409@archivale.com> <1VV2Aw-4WJR2m0@fwd13.t-online.de> Message-ID: <5259DEB4.9000401@archivale.com> This makes sense. Another one for the archives. Marc On 10/13/2013 12:35 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de wrote: > Marc exact that.. > > - Close the door of the engine compartment helps. > > - stay a time on the surface before diving helps also -but not so much. > On a close enviroment like a submarine the machinery is still hand > warm on the next day.. > > - The pressure tight cooling system is exact what I did. But for other > reasons. > > A normal boats diesel cooling has a internal freshwater cecurit with > a pump on the engine for the freshwater. > than a heat exchanger between the interank freshwater and the > external seawater and a seawater pump for the external seawater cecurit. > > For saftey reason I go for a single loop. Means only the freshwater > sytem but running to the outside pipes and pressure tight. Caleld "keel > cooling system" here. Many fishing vessel here have aht simple > system. Only one pump, no heat exchanger and no vales to close before > diving on the cooling system. Of course there are two valves - but just > for emergency closing if the outside pipe system is damage - very > unusual by angle bar pipes made of one inch strong steel. > > In general the system can be use to cool the engine block down. But my > freswater pump is direct driven by the diesel via a belt and will not > operate underwater. And I think it is wrong to cool the diesel down that > way - maybe you need his force short after surfacing. > > On a psub size sub it makes sence to run the diesel just as electric > powergenerator in his own sound box. > Purchase of the shelf ready with all auxillariy systems. On a bigger sub > like Euronaut it may mmakes more sences for a direct diesel driven > propeller gear with a auxillery generator to load the batteries and > drive the baot underwater. > > vbr Carsten > > "Marc de Piolenc" > > schrieb: > > My thinking exactly in planning air intake into the cabin, drawn by and > > into the engine. > > > > Good point about residual heat when diving. My only "solution" to this > > would be to provide a thermosiphon loop that would continue cooling the > > engine's heat exchanger while diving, but that would of course mean that > > the whole heat exchanger system would have to be built to withstand full > > dive depth. Not very satisfactory. I suppose one could either close off > > the engine compartment while diving or just spend some time on the > > surface prior to diving to allow the heat to dissipate. > > > > Marc > > > > On 10/12/2013 1:56 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de > wrote: > > > Breathing air for the diesel engine from inside the cabin is very > common > > > to clean the cabin air. Air goes in the cabin via the open hatch. > > > > > > It also remove the little leaks from the exhaust and the oil dust. And > > > works very well on the surface. > > > In Euronaut the diesel air inlet is from the battery bilge compartment > > > to vent also the battery gases during charing them on the surface run. > > -- > > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -- > > Carsten Standfu? > Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik > Heinrich Reck Str.12A > 18211 Admannshagen > > 0172 8464 420 > WWW.Euronaut.org > Carsten at euronaut.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 20:17:20 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 17:17:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Message-ID: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Some?quick questions / observations / musing come to mind?as I sit here editing videos. ? It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like?yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? ? If DC motors must be used,?in my view?then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. ? Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. ? Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions)? http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf? Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! ? So the question of the day is,... ? Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida?/ Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From freepetesub at yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 20:56:45 2013 From: freepetesub at yahoo.com (Pete Niedermayr) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 17:56:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381625805.66382.YahooMailNeo@web140502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Where do you keep the fuel ? ? Pete ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 7:17 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Some?quick questions / observations / musing come to mind?as I sit here editing videos. It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like?yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? If DC motors must be used,?in my view?then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions)? http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf? Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! So the question of the day is,... Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida?/ Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 21:10:33 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 18:10:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <1381625805.66382.YahooMailNeo@web140502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381626633.87135.YahooMailIosMobile@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> A collapsible bladder outside under a fairing would have the disadvantage of increased penetrations and the advantages of self compensation and externalizing spillage, etc.

An internal tank has the disadvantages that come with changing w&b issues and fumes, etc.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Sat Oct 12 21:28:44 2013 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Private) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 21:28:44 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <1381625805.66382.YahooMailNeo@web140502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381625805.66382.YahooMailNeo@web140502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Interesting, because for my part I'm heading in the exact opposite direction. My next sub aims to be the ultimate in simplicity, and will make Snoopy look really complex by comparison. As for the heat, I don't want the complexity of A/C and would be content if I could simply open the hatch, hence freeboard is a priority. I could augment that by simply adding a blower for ventilation on the surface. The thrusters will be fixed, no linkages and actuators like Snoopy. No VBT. Thrusters and speed controllers will be four identical units, and will be replaceable in a few minutes (thrusters are emergency-droppable, so to replace you just drop them). The goal is to have a sub so simple that I can ship it to a remote location and know it will have no technical glitches whatsoever and that I will have spares on hand at all times for it's few moving parts. It will have 12 batteries in the main banks, and when you add to that the rate at which battery density is improving, I think there'll be enough juice to render a diesel unnecessary. I once went as far as buying a tiny diesel to evaluate it for use in a sub, but after tests I resold it on eBay. Too much noise, heat, and complexity for me. Just my two pennies... The more I dive the simpler my ideal sub gets. Best, Alec > On Oct 12, 2013, at 8:56 PM, Pete Niedermayr wrote: > > Where do you keep the fuel ? > > Pete > > From: Joe Perkel > To: Psubbers Mailist > Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 7:17 PM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings > > Some quick questions / observations / musing come to mind as I sit here editing videos. > > It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? > > If DC motors must be used, in my view then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. > > Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. > > Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions) http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf > Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! > > So the question of the day is,... > > Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida / Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From freepetesub at yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 21:42:41 2013 From: freepetesub at yahoo.com (Pete Niedermayr) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 18:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: References: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381625805.66382.YahooMailNeo@web140502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381628561.77338.YahooMailNeo@web140506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Anybody ever thought about putting a small out board motor on to get out to the dive sight and then handing it over to the tender for diving. Pete ________________________________ From: Private To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Interesting, because for my part I'm heading in the exact opposite direction. My next sub aims to be the ultimate in simplicity, and will make Snoopy look really complex by comparison. As for the heat, I don't want the complexity of A/C and would be content if I could simply open the hatch, hence freeboard is a priority. I could augment that by simply adding a blower for ventilation on the surface. The thrusters will be fixed, no linkages and actuators like Snoopy. No VBT. Thrusters and speed controllers will be four identical units, and will be replaceable in a few minutes (thrusters are emergency-droppable, so to replace you just drop them). The goal is to have a sub so simple that I can ship it to a remote location and know it will have no technical glitches whatsoever and that I will have spares on hand at all times for it's few moving parts.? It will have 12 batteries in the main banks, and when you add to that the rate at which battery density is improving, I think there'll be enough juice to render a diesel unnecessary. I once went as far as buying a tiny diesel to evaluate it for use in a sub, but after tests I resold it on eBay. Too much noise, heat, and complexity for me. Just my two pennies... The more I dive the simpler my ideal sub gets. Best, Alec On Oct 12, 2013, at 8:56 PM, Pete Niedermayr wrote: Where do you keep the fuel ? >? >Pete > > > >________________________________ > From: Joe Perkel >To: Psubbers Mailist >Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 7:17 PM >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings > > > >Some?quick questions / observations / musing come to mind?as I sit here editing videos. > >It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like?yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? > >If DC motors must be used,?in my view?then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. > >Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. > >Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions)? http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf? >Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! > >So the question of the day is,... > >Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida?/ Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phil at philnuytten.com Sat Oct 5 21:59:08 2013 From: phil at philnuytten.com (Phil Nuytten) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 18:59:08 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic Casting In-Reply-To: References: <1381582783.52726.YahooMailBasic@web140904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Can't say enough good stuff about Bruce Beasley - he really is is an amazing friend. His former company, Polymer Engineering, made the acrylic hemis for our 'Deep Rover' about 30 years ago. Bruce and I discovered quite accidentally that we both had a passion for northwest coast first nations art and knew many native artists who were our mutual friends. Bruce is an artist who got into acrylics because of his art. I got into the underwater biz for a similar reason - I apprenticed with a master totem carver during the summers in the 50's and that led to diving . . .a long story. You can find it in my book "The Totem Carvers" - now out of print but usually available -used-, from Amazon - stupid prices sometimes, though! BTW, our crew just got back from Normandy - filming the sunken 'D' -day troop carriers and tanks off SWORD, JUNEAU, and OMAHA beaches for a one hour special due to air next year for the 70th anniversary of the D-Day invasion. Even took a 92 year old survivor down in 'Aquarius' to see his troop transporter, we used AQ and DeepWorker. AQ is off filming deep glass-sponge reefs next week, for a conservation group called C-Paws - google the name and you'll get the skinny. Phil -----Original Message----- From: Alan Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 12:56 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic Casting Hi Jon & Hank, Firstly Hank, no I didn't come across any Biber class submarines. Regarding Bruce; After his success with acrylic he started an acrylic business, however his partner got out of it & set up his own company. He was a bit hard done by. At some point he chose to pursue art rather than a business career. He is a good friend of Phil Nuytten. They both have a strong interest in Native American art. If we had a conference on the West coast you might be able to talk him in to speaking. It certainly is an interesting story. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/10/2013, at 2:59 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > Nice job Alan. I always wondered where he was, he seemed to disappear > after his work with Stachiw ended. We should see if he's interested in > being a guest speaker for a future conference. > > -------------------------------------------- > On Sat, 10/12/13, Alan wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic Casting > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > Date: Saturday, October 12, 2013, 1:26 AM > > While in San Francisco I looked up > Bruce Beasley's contact details. > He is one of Americas pre- eminent sculptures & a > pioneer in casting thick sectioned acrylic. > I thought I was heading to his gallery but it ended up being > his home & studio. > For those who are unfamiliar with the story, Bruce was > attracted to acrylic as a sculpting > medium but no one had cast it more than two inches thick. He > managed to cast a 4" thick > model of a proposed 13ft x 4ft art work that he submitted > for a competition for a State of California public > sculpture. The judges awarded him the prize & finance to > built it. Unbeknown > to them the technology to make it didn't exist. > Du Pont the acrylic manufacturer told Bruce they couldn't > offer him technical assistance as he had already exceeded > what their chemists could achieve, but would supply him the > raw product free. > He observed the formation of bubbles in the polymerising > acrylic through windows in an autoclave & discovered how > to eliminate them & the cracking, that were the Achilles > heel of the process. 2 castings later he created The 13ft x > 4ft casting. He said if he hadn't have made it he could have > been sued. > It was at that point that Jerry Stachiw from the U.S. navy > approached him to make thick acrylic spheres for deep diving > submersibles. There were several failures before success > & the price tag on these failures was the equivalent of > a new VW. > Anyway he ushered me in to his living room > & chatted away. I have a background in art > so we related well, & he ended up giving me a book which > was a retrospective of his sculpture, > including the story of his acrylic sculpture. I think he was > quite impressed that someone from N.Z. > knew his story & had tracked him down. > He still has the secrets to manufacturing large castings if > anyone wants to purchase the technology. > So again I've been totally spoilt. > Alan > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From piolenc at archivale.com Sat Oct 12 21:55:49 2013 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 09:55:49 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <1381628561.77338.YahooMailNeo@web140506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381625805.66382.YahooMailNeo@web140502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381628561.77338.YahooMailNeo@web140506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5259FDA5.50908@archivale.com> In my case at least, there will be no tender, so that option does not exist. Everything needed from departure to return will be in the sub when it leaves the dock or the ramp. Marc On 10/13/2013 9:42 AM, Pete Niedermayr wrote: > Anybody ever thought about putting a small out board motor on to get out > to the dive sight and then handing it over to the tender for diving. -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Oct 12 22:37:10 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 19:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381631830.60984.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, I am a lover of hydraulic anything.? I am sure you can go hyd all around with no trouble.? Problem is efficiency, they will rob 25%.? If you want range, then its no good.? If you launch from a ship and look around then it would not matter maybe.? With seals the way they are now and magnetic couplers, electric still wins. I was looking on e bay and there is a magnetic coupler for a water pump that could be modified for our purposes.? I like the idea but I have no real need to improve a sub that is perfect :-)?? Also my budget is hurtin bad. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 6:17:20 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Some?quick questions / observations / musing come to mind?as I sit here editing videos. It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like?yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? If DC motors must be used,?in my view?then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions)? http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf? Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! So the question of the day is,... Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida?/ Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Oct 12 22:39:20 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 19:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: References: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381625805.66382.YahooMailNeo@web140502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381631960.86596.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Good point Alec, better to add volume for batteries and make it stream lined. Hank From: Private To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 7:28:44 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Interesting, because for my part I'm heading in the exact opposite direction. My next sub aims to be the ultimate in simplicity, and will make Snoopy look really complex by comparison. As for the heat, I don't want the complexity of A/C and would be content if I could simply open the hatch, hence freeboard is a priority. I could augment that by simply adding a blower for ventilation on the surface. The thrusters will be fixed, no linkages and actuators like Snoopy. No VBT. Thrusters and speed controllers will be four identical units, and will be replaceable in a few minutes (thrusters are emergency-droppable, so to replace you just drop them). The goal is to have a sub so simple that I can ship it to a remote location and know it will have no technical glitches whatsoever and that I will have spares on hand at all times for it's few moving parts.? It will have 12 batteries in the main banks, and when you add to that the rate at which battery density is improving, I think there'll be enough juice to render a diesel unnecessary. I once went as far as buying a tiny diesel to evaluate it for use in a sub, but after tests I resold it on eBay. Too much noise, heat, and complexity for me. Just my two pennies... The more I dive the simpler my ideal sub gets. Best, Alec On Oct 12, 2013, at 8:56 PM, Pete Niedermayr wrote: Where do you keep the fuel ? >? >Pete > > >From: Joe Perkel >To: Psubbers Mailist >Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 7:17 PM >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings > > > >Some?quick questions / observations / musing come to mind?as I sit here editing videos. > >It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like?yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? > >If DC motors must be used,?in my view?then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. > >Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. > >Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions)? http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf? >Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! > >So the question of the day is,... > >Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida?/ Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Sat Oct 12 22:44:44 2013 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 02:44:44 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic Casting Message-ID: <201310121944921.SM01500@[66.162.33.185]> It's kind of like a collision of Art and Science !? BTW Phil have you guys made any progress on that bionic hand that you were working on? Brian Cox -----Original Message----- From: "Phil Nuytten" Sent 10/5/2013 6:59:08 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic CastingCan't say enough good stuff about Bruce Beasley - he really is is an amazing friend. His former company, Polymer Engineering, made the acrylic hemis for our 'Deep Rover' about 30 years ago. Bruce and I discovered quite accidentally that we both had a passion for northwest coast first nations art and knew many native artists who were our mutual friends. Bruce is an artist who got into acrylics because of his art. I got into the underwater biz for a similar reason - I apprenticed with a master totem carver during the summers in the 50's and that led to diving . . .a long story. You can find it in my book "The Totem Carvers" - now out of print but usually available -used-, from Amazon - stupid prices sometimes, though! BTW, our crew just got back from Normandy - filming the sunken 'D' -day troop carriers and tanks off SWORD, JUNEAU, and OMAHA beaches for a one hour special due to air next year for the 70th anniversary of the D-Day invasion. Even took a 92 year old survivor down in 'Aquarius' to see his troop transporter, we used AQ and DeepWorker. AQ is off filming deep glass-sponge reefs next week, for a conservation group called C-Paws - google the name and you'll get the skinny. Phil -----Original Message----- From: Alan Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 12:56 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic Casting Hi Jon & Hank, Firstly Hank, no I didn't come across any Biber class submarines. Regarding Bruce; After his success with acrylic he started an acrylic business, however his partner got out of it & set up his own company. He was a bit hard done by. At some point he chose to pursue art rather than a business career. He is a good friend of Phil Nuytten. They both have a strong interest in Native American art. If we had a conference on the West coast you might be able to talk him in to speaking. It certainly is an interesting story. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/10/2013, at 2:59 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > Nice job Alan. I always wondered where he was, he seemed to disappear > after his work with Stachiw ended. We should see if he's interested in > being a guest speaker for a future conference. > > -------------------------------------------- > On Sat, 10/12/13, Alan wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic Casting > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > Date: Saturday, October 12, 2013, 1:26 AM > > While in San Francisco I looked up > Bruce Beasley's contact details. > He is one of Americas pre- eminent sculptures & a > pioneer in casting thick sectioned acrylic. > I thought I was heading to his gallery but it ended up being > his home & studio. > For those who are unfamiliar with the story, Bruce was > attracted to acrylic as a sculpting > medium but no one had cast it more than two inches thick. He > managed to cast a 4" thick > model of a proposed 13ft x 4ft art work that he submitted > for a competition for a State of California public > sculpture. The judges awarded him the prize & finance to > built it. Unbeknown > to them the technology to make it didn't exist. > Du Pont the acrylic manufacturer told Bruce they couldn't > offer him technical assistance as he had already exceeded > what their chemists could achieve, but would supply him the > raw product free. > He observed the formation of bubbles in the polymerising > acrylic through windows in an autoclave & discovered how > to eliminate them & the cracking, that were the Achilles > heel of the process. 2 castings later he created The 13ft x > 4ft casting. He said if he hadn't have made it he could have > been sued. > It was at that point that Jerry Stachiw from the U.S. navy > approached him to make thick acrylic spheres for deep diving > submersibles. There were several failures before success > & the price tag on these failures was the equivalent of > a new VW. > Anyway he ushered me in to his living room > & chatted away. I have a background in art > so we related well, & he ended up giving me a book which > was a retrospective of his sculpture, > including the story of his acrylic sculpture. I think he was > quite impressed that someone from N.Z. > knew his story & had tracked him down. > He still has the secrets to manufacturing large castings if > anyone wants to purchase the technology. > So again I've been totally spoilt. > Alan > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?????????? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sat Oct 12 23:21:32 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 20:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <1381631830.60984.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381634492.48660.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hank,

Is that 25% of input energy for the same output?

Where is the loss, this is not my area.

Just mentioning it because of the choice of Alvin's systems.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From freepetesub at yahoo.com Sun Oct 13 00:18:12 2013 From: freepetesub at yahoo.com (Pete Niedermayr) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 21:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?iso-8859-1?q?Modell-U-Boot-Freunde_K=F6ln?= Message-ID: <1381637892.7262.YahooMailNeo@web140502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Check this out ? http://modellubootfreundekoeln.wordpress.com/about/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phil at philnuytten.com Sun Oct 6 01:52:25 2013 From: phil at philnuytten.com (Phil Nuytten) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2013 22:52:25 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic Casting In-Reply-To: <201310121944921.SM01500@[66.162.33.185]> References: <201310121944921.SM01500@[66.162.33.185]> Message-ID: Hi, Brian Re the ?Prehensor? ? yes, we completed a mechanical version that works quite well (check it out on the Nuytco website) We?ve also done some design work on an electronically controlled ?Prehensor? that has some very good potential to be the one we wind up using. We?re currently doing some studies on a lightweight shallower version of the ?Exosuit? that could use the much lighter electronic version. Never a dull moment! Phil From: brian Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 7:44 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic Casting It's kind of like a collision of Art and Science ! BTW Phil have you guys made any progress on that bionic hand that you were working on? Brian Cox -----Original Message----- From: "Phil Nuytten" Sent 10/5/2013 6:59:08 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic Casting Can't say enough good stuff about Bruce Beasley - he really is is an amazing friend. His former company, Polymer Engineering, made the acrylic hemis for our 'Deep Rover' about 30 years ago. Bruce and I discovered quite accidentally that we both had a passion for northwest coast first nations art and knew many native artists who were our mutual friends. Bruce is an artist who got into acrylics because of his art. I got into the underwater biz for a similar reason - I apprenticed with a master totem carver during the summers in the 50's and that led to diving . . .a long story. You can find it in my book "The Totem Carvers" - now out of print but usually available -used-, from Amazon - stupid prices sometimes, though! BTW, our crew just got back from Normandy - filming the sunken 'D' -day troop carriers and tanks off SWORD, JUNEAU, and OMAHA beaches for a one hour special due to air next year for the 70th anniversary of the D-Day invasion. Even took a 92 year old survivor down in 'Aquarius' to see his troop transporter, we used AQ and DeepWorker. AQ is off filming deep glass-sponge reefs next week, for a conservation group called C-Paws - google the name and you'll get the skinny. Phil -----Original Message----- From: Alan Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 12:56 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic Casting Hi Jon & Hank, Firstly Hank, no I didn't come across any Biber class submarines. Regarding Bruce; After his success with acrylic he started an acrylic business, however his partner got out of it & set up his own company. He was a bit hard done by. At some point he chose to pursue art rather than a business career. He is a good friend of Phil Nuytten. They both have a strong interest in Native American art. If we had a conference on the West coast you might be able to talk him in to speaking. It certainly is an interesting story. Alan Sent from my iPad On 12/10/2013, at 2:59 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > Nice job Alan. I always wondered where he was, he seemed to disappear > after his work with Stachiw ended. We should see if he's interested in > being a guest speaker for a future conference. > > -------------------------------------------- > On Sat, 10/12/13, Alan wrote: > > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic Casting > To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > Date: Saturday, October 12, 2013, 1:26 AM > > While in San Francisco I looked up > Bruce Beasley's contact details. > He is one of Americas pre- eminent sculptures & a > pioneer in casting thick sectioned acrylic. > I thought I was heading to his gallery but it ended up being > his home & studio. > For those who are unfamiliar with the story, Bruce was > attracted to acrylic as a sculpting > medium but no one had cast it more than two inches thick. He > managed to cast a 4" thick > model of a proposed 13ft x 4ft art work that he submitted > for a competition for a State of California public > sculpture. The judges awarded him the prize & finance to > built it. Unbeknown > to them the technology to make it didn't exist. > Du Pont the acrylic manufacturer told Bruce they couldn't > offer him technical assistance as he had already exceeded > what their chemists could achieve, but would supply him the > raw product free. > He observed the formation of bubbles in the polymerising > acrylic through windows in an autoclave & discovered how > to eliminate them & the cracking, that were the Achilles > heel of the process. 2 castings later he created The 13ft x > 4ft casting. He said if he hadn't have made it he could have > been sued. > It was at that point that Jerry Stachiw from the U.S. navy > approached him to make thick acrylic spheres for deep diving > submersibles. There were several failures before success > & the price tag on these failures was the equivalent of > a new VW. > Anyway he ushered me in to his living room > & chatted away. I have a background in art > so we related well, & he ended up giving me a book which > was a retrospective of his sculpture, > including the story of his acrylic sculpture. I think he was > quite impressed that someone from N.Z. > knew his story & had tracked him down. > He still has the secrets to manufacturing large castings if > anyone wants to purchase the technology. > So again I've been totally spoilt. > Alan > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?????????? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Sun Oct 13 02:38:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 13 Oct 2013 06:38 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: References: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381625805.66382.YahooMailNeo@web140502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1VVFKl-0dG8vY0@fwd14.t-online.de> Some figures: Euronaut with Diesel : abt. 300 sm range with the lead batteries : abt. 30 sm range with Lithium batteries : est. 120 sm range with diesel and auxilleries build out and lithium batteries instead : est . 150 sm range The Nordic Sub type will have aroub 50 sm with lithiun batteries 18 sm the spot, 18 sm back, 14 as reserve. On small K subs I would go with batteries only. vbr Carsten "Private" schrieb: Interesting, because for my part I'm heading in the exact opposite direction. My next sub aims to be the ultimate in simplicity, and will make Snoopy look really complex by comparison. As for the heat, I don't want the complexity of A/C and would be content if I could simply open the hatch, hence freeboard is a priority. I could augment that by simply adding a blower for ventilation on the surface. The thrusters will be fixed, no linkages and actuators like Snoopy. No VBT. Thrusters and speed controllers will be four identical units, and will be replaceable in a few minutes (thrusters are emergency-droppable, so to replace you just drop them). The goal is to have a sub so simple that I can ship it to a remote location and know it will have no technical glitches whatsoever and that I will have spares on hand at all times for it's few moving parts. It will have 12 batteries in the main banks, and when you add to that the rate at which battery density is improving, I think there'll be enough juice to render a diesel unnecessary. I once went as far as buying a tiny diesel to evaluate it for use in a sub, but after tests I resold it on eBay. Too much noise, heat, and complexity for me. Just my two pennies... The more I dive the simpler my ideal sub gets. Best, Alec On Oct 12, 2013, at 8:56 PM, Pete Niedermayr wrote: Where do you keep the fuel ? Pete From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 7:17 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Some quick questions / observations / musing come to mind as I sit here editing videos. It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? If DC motors must be used, in my view then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions) http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! So the question of the day is,... Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida / Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Sun Oct 13 02:43:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 13 Oct 2013 06:43 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <1381628561.77338.YahooMailNeo@web140506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381625805.66382.YahooMailNeo@web140502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381628561.77338.YahooMailNeo@web140506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1VVFQD-28lJzc0@fwd08.t-online.de> If you have a tender for towing the sub - you need not the outboard.. You can put the outboard in a bag or compartment on the sub and make it ambient with a scuba gear anda airbottle. vbr Carsten "Pete Niedermayr" schrieb: Anybody ever thought about putting a small out board motor on to get out to the dive sight and then handing it over to the tender for diving. Pete From: Private To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Interesting, because for my part I'm heading in the exact opposite direction. My next sub aims to be the ultimate in simplicity, and will make Snoopy look really complex by comparison. As for the heat, I don't want the complexity of A/C and would be content if I could simply open the hatch, hence freeboard is a priority. I could augment that by simply adding a blower for ventilation on the surface. The thrusters will be fixed, no linkages and actuators like Snoopy. No VBT. Thrusters and speed controllers will be four identical units, and will be replaceable in a few minutes (thrusters are emergency-droppable, so to replace you just drop them). The goal is to have a sub so simple that I can ship it to a remote location and know it will have no technical glitches whatsoever and that I will have spares on hand at all times for it's few moving parts. It will have 12 batteries in the main banks, and when you add to that the rate at which battery density is improving, I think there'll be enough juice to render a diesel unnecessary. I once went as far as buying a tiny diesel to evaluate it for use in a sub, but after tests I resold it on eBay. Too much noise, heat, and complexity for me. Just my two pennies... The more I dive the simpler my ideal sub gets. Best, Alec On Oct 12, 2013, at 8:56 PM, Pete Niedermayr wrote: Where do you keep the fuel ? Pete From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 7:17 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Some quick questions / observations / musing come to mind as I sit here editing videos. It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? If DC motors must be used, in my view then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions) http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! So the question of the day is,... Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida / Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Sun Oct 13 03:01:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 13 Oct 2013 07:01 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <1VVFKl-0dG8vY0@fwd14.t-online.de> References: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381625805.66382.YahooMailNeo@web140502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VVFKl-0dG8vY0@fwd14.t-online.de> Message-ID: <1VVFh8-0iFlzs0@fwd18.t-online.de> The good think on a diesel sub is that nobody can steal it without having the checklist. The checklist - ready fo for see - has 36 points and just 17 are relate to the diesel system. The bad think on a bigger one are the coast. 4 liter per seameile or around 24 Liters an Hours. Means 45 USD an hour or 2300 USD for 150 sm and backjust for the fuel. (1 liter is around 1,4 Euro or 1,9 USD) vbr Carsten " " schrieb: Some figures: Euronaut with Diesel : abt. 300 sm range with the lead batteries : abt. 30 sm range with Lithium batteries : est. 120 sm range with diesel and auxilleries build out and lithium batteries instead : est . 150 sm range The Nordic Sub type will have aroub 50 sm with lithiun batteries 18 sm the spot, 18 sm back, 14 as reserve. On small K subs I would go with batteries only. vbr Carsten "Private" schrieb: Interesting, because for my part I'm heading in the exact opposite direction. My next sub aims to be the ultimate in simplicity, and will make Snoopy look really complex by comparison. As for the heat, I don't want the complexity of A/C and would be content if I could simply open the hatch, hence freeboard is a priority. I could augment that by simply adding a blower for ventilation on the surface. The thrusters will be fixed, no linkages and actuators like Snoopy. No VBT. Thrusters and speed controllers will be four identical units, and will be replaceable in a few minutes (thrusters are emergency-droppable, so to replace you just drop them). The goal is to have a sub so simple that I can ship it to a remote location and know it will have no technical glitches whatsoever and that I will have spares on hand at all times for it's few moving parts. It will have 12 batteries in the main banks, and when you add to that the rate at which battery density is improving, I think there'll be enough juice to render a diesel unnecessary. I once went as far as buying a tiny diesel to evaluate it for use in a sub, but after tests I resold it on eBay. Too much noise, heat, and complexity for me. Just my two pennies... The more I dive the simpler my ideal sub gets. Best, Alec On Oct 12, 2013, at 8:56 PM, Pete Niedermayr wrote: Where do you keep the fuel ? Pete From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 7:17 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Some quick questions / observations / musing come to mind as I sit here editing videos. It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? If DC motors must be used, in my view then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions) http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! So the question of the day is,... Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida / Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Oct 13 09:49:41 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 06:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <1381634492.48660.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381631830.60984.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1381634492.48660.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381672181.7569.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, Yes, if you put in 10hp then count on 7.5 out.? There are better pumps but lots more money.? Remember, your pumping the oil then diverting it in a valve, sending it through oil lines then forcing through a motor.? Lots of areas for loss.? Alvin?must be using hydraulic for deep sealing reasons perhaps.? I am not saying hydraulic is bad, just the opposite, I love hydraulics.? Just to hard on battery power for me. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 9:21:32 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Hank, Is that 25% of input energy for the same output? Where is the loss, this is not my area. Just mentioning it because of the choice of Alvin's systems. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Sent: Sun, Oct 13, 2013 2:37:10 AM Joe, I am a lover of hydraulic anything.? I am sure you can go hyd all around with no trouble.? Problem is efficiency, they will rob 25%.? If you want range, then its no good.? If you launch from a ship and look around then it would not matter maybe.? With seals the way they are now and magnetic couplers, electric still wins. I was looking on e bay and there is a magnetic coupler for a water pump that could be modified for our purposes.? I like the idea but I have no real need to improve a sub that is perfect :-)?? Also my budget is hurtin bad. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 6:17:20 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Some?quick questions / observations / musing come to mind?as I sit here editing videos. It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like?yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? If DC motors must be used,?in my view?then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions)? http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf? Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! So the question of the day is,... Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida?/ Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 10:19:41 2013 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 10:19:41 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?iso-8859-1?q?Modell-U-Boot-Freunde_K=F6ln?= In-Reply-To: <1381637892.7262.YahooMailNeo@web140502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381637892.7262.YahooMailNeo@web140502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Utterly amazing. In many ways the models look harder to make than the real thing. Alec On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 12:18 AM, Pete Niedermayr wrote: > Check this out > > http://modellubootfreundekoeln.wordpress.com/about/ > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Oct 13 10:30:33 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 07:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <1381672181.7569.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381674633.22387.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hank,

I've been pricing DC motors to fit in those spam cans. So, Ive been interested in how best to mitigate the risk go salt water intrusion.

To that end mag couplings seem to be the best solution for DC. Now to find appropriate matching hardware, (this is where published tech specs come in real handy) and figuring out the details.

Hydraulic on its face looks attractive for the same reason, to the detriment of complexity in associated systems.

AC is a must for me, that little unit is the bees knees. But, I don't want this thing spiraling out of hand either so some sacrifices / compromises are a must.

I want to find out how to mag couple George's spam cans.

Joe




Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Oct 13 10:31:29 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 07:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?iso-8859-1?q?Modell-U-Boot-Freunde_K=F6ln?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1381674689.71168.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I really liked Star III and Mermaid!

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sun Oct 13 10:38:35 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 10:38:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] =?utf-8?q?Modell-U-Boot-Freunde_K=C3=B6ln?= In-Reply-To: <1381674689.71168.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381674689.71168.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D096390802565B-1D8C-25075@webmail-m284.sysops.aol.com> And I'll take the 12-boat, of course! Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sun, Oct 13, 2013 10:31 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Modell-U-Boot-Freunde K?ln I really liked Star III and Mermaid! Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Alec Smyth ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Modell-U-Boot-Freunde K?ln Sent: Sun, Oct 13, 2013 2:19:41 PM Utterly amazing. In many ways the models look harder to make than the real thing. Alec On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 12:18 AM, Pete Niedermayr wrote: Check this out http://modellubootfreundekoeln.wordpress.com/about/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sun Oct 13 13:00:41 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 10:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <1381674633.22387.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381672181.7569.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1381674633.22387.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381683641.50703.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, I see no reason that a K thruster can not be converted to mag drive.? The? can would need to be longer and the tail section re worked. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 8:30:33 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Hank, I've been pricing DC motors to fit in those spam cans. So, Ive been interested in how best to mitigate the risk go salt water intrusion. To that end mag couplings seem to be the best solution for DC. Now to find appropriate matching hardware, (this is where published tech specs come in real handy) and figuring out the details. Hydraulic on its face looks attractive for the same reason, to the detriment of complexity in associated systems. AC is a must for me, that little unit is the bees knees. But, I don't want this thing spiraling out of hand either so some sacrifices / compromises are a must. I want to find out how to mag couple George's spam cans. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Sent: Sun, Oct 13, 2013 1:49:41 PM Joe, Yes, if you put in 10hp then count on 7.5 out.? There are better pumps but lots more money.? Remember, your pumping the oil then diverting it in a valve, sending it through oil lines then forcing through a motor.? Lots of areas for loss.? Alvin?must be using hydraulic for deep sealing reasons perhaps.? I am not saying hydraulic is bad, just the opposite, I love hydraulics.? Just to hard on battery power for me. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 9:21:32 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Hank, Is that 25% of input energy for the same output? Where is the loss, this is not my area. Just mentioning it because of the choice of Alvin's systems. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Sent: Sun, Oct 13, 2013 2:37:10 AM Joe, I am a lover of hydraulic anything.? I am sure you can go hyd all around with no trouble.? Problem is efficiency, they will rob 25%.? If you want range, then its no good.? If you launch from a ship and look around then it would not matter maybe.? With seals the way they are now and magnetic couplers, electric still wins. I was looking on e bay and there is a magnetic coupler for a water pump that could be modified for our purposes.? I like the idea but I have no real need to improve a sub that is perfect :-)?? Also my budget is hurtin bad. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 6:17:20 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Some?quick questions / observations / musing come to mind?as I sit here editing videos. It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like?yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? If DC motors must be used,?in my view?then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions)? http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf? Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! So the question of the day is,... Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida?/ Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Oct 13 19:03:18 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 13:03:18 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic Casting In-Reply-To: References: <1381582783.52726.YahooMailBasic@web140904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8DCB1947-AAA3-4C95-A37D-F68824A0858C@yahoo.com> Thanks Phil, will have a look for the book, it sounds my type of read. Was in Cherbourg, Normandy a couple of weeks back. Saw the submarine museum, but didn't get to the Normandy landing site. Alan Sent from my iPad On 5/10/2013, at 3:59 PM, "Phil Nuytten" wrote: > Can't say enough good stuff about Bruce Beasley - he really is is an amazing friend. His former company, Polymer Engineering, made the acrylic hemis for our 'Deep Rover' about 30 years ago. Bruce and I discovered quite accidentally that we both had a passion for northwest coast first nations art and knew many native artists who were our mutual friends. Bruce is an artist who got into acrylics because of his art. I got into the underwater biz for a similar reason - I apprenticed with a master totem carver during the summers in the 50's and that led to diving . . .a long story. You can find it in my book "The Totem Carvers" - now out of print but usually available -used-, from Amazon - stupid prices sometimes, though! > BTW, our crew just got back from Normandy - filming the sunken 'D' -day troop carriers and tanks off SWORD, JUNEAU, and OMAHA beaches for a one hour special due to air next year for the 70th anniversary of the D-Day invasion. Even took a 92 year old survivor down in 'Aquarius' to see his troop transporter, we used AQ and DeepWorker. AQ is off filming deep glass-sponge reefs next week, for a conservation group called C-Paws - google the name and you'll get the skinny. > Phil > > -----Original Message----- From: Alan > Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 12:56 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic Casting > > Hi Jon & Hank, > Firstly Hank, no I didn't come across any Biber class submarines. > Regarding Bruce; After his success with acrylic he started an acrylic business, however his partner got out of it & set up his own company. He was a bit hard done by. At some point he > chose to pursue art rather than a business career. He is a good friend of Phil Nuytten. They both > have a strong interest in Native American art. > If we had a conference on the West coast you might be able to talk him in to speaking. > It certainly is an interesting story. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 12/10/2013, at 2:59 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > >> Nice job Alan. I always wondered where he was, he seemed to disappear after his work with Stachiw ended. We should see if he's interested in being a guest speaker for a future conference. >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Sat, 10/12/13, Alan wrote: >> >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Bruce Beasley Acrylic Casting >> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> Date: Saturday, October 12, 2013, 1:26 AM >> >> While in San Francisco I looked up >> Bruce Beasley's contact details. >> He is one of Americas pre- eminent sculptures & a >> pioneer in casting thick sectioned acrylic. >> I thought I was heading to his gallery but it ended up being >> his home & studio. >> For those who are unfamiliar with the story, Bruce was >> attracted to acrylic as a sculpting >> medium but no one had cast it more than two inches thick. He >> managed to cast a 4" thick >> model of a proposed 13ft x 4ft art work that he submitted >> for a competition for a State of California public >> sculpture. The judges awarded him the prize & finance to >> built it. Unbeknown >> to them the technology to make it didn't exist. >> Du Pont the acrylic manufacturer told Bruce they couldn't >> offer him technical assistance as he had already exceeded >> what their chemists could achieve, but would supply him the >> raw product free. >> He observed the formation of bubbles in the polymerising >> acrylic through windows in an autoclave & discovered how >> to eliminate them & the cracking, that were the Achilles >> heel of the process. 2 castings later he created The 13ft x >> 4ft casting. He said if he hadn't have made it he could have >> been sued. >> It was at that point that Jerry Stachiw from the U.S. navy >> approached him to make thick acrylic spheres for deep diving >> submersibles. There were several failures before success >> & the price tag on these failures was the equivalent of >> a new VW. >> Anyway he ushered me in to his living room >> & chatted away. I have a background in art >> so we related well, & he ended up giving me a book which >> was a retrospective of his sculpture, >> including the story of his acrylic sculpture. I think he was >> quite impressed that someone from N.Z. >> knew his story & had tracked him down. >> He still has the secrets to manufacturing large castings if >> anyone wants to purchase the technology. >> So again I've been totally spoilt. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Oct 13 20:08:51 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 17:08:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <1381683641.50703.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381709331.53248.YahooMailIosMobile@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I'm slipping, possibly because of the long hiatus I took from the PSUB community. Below is an excerpt from Woods Hole on Alvin's propulsion.


Propulsion System
Maneuvering of the submersible is accomplished with six electric thrusters. Three thrusters on the stern provide forward/reverse motion, two thrusters mounted amidships provide vertical motion and a final thruster mounted athwartships in the stern turns the submersible about an axis just aft of the sphere center line. Two of the aft-mounted thrusters can be rotated downward to provide additional vertical thrust at the expense of fore/aft thrust and some pitching. Each thruster provides up to 150 pounds of thrust. The battery power consumed by the propulsion system is a strong function of the submersible?s speed; the greatest range and endurance (bottom time) will be achieved by moving slowly (1.5 km/hr (0.8 kts) or less).

The pilot has various means to control the thrusters, the most commonly used being a joystick to effect fore/aft, vertical and turning motions. The submersible has only a limited ability to move sideways without turning. A ?heading hold? autopilot is available to maintain a fixed heading under the control of Alvin?s gyrocompass.

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Oct 13 23:25:20 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 17:25:20 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <1381631830.60984.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381631830.60984.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <688C9F8C-10EE-414E-ABEF-24D4D921B7DA@yahoo.com> Hi Hank, With regard to the off the shelf, water pump, magnetic coupler. I wonder if the thrust bearings would be a problem in our application. On a water pump you would have maybe a belt driven pulley on the shaft of the coupler & no need for thrust bearings. Whereas in our application with the propeller exerting force down the shaft they are needed, & if used would be exposed to fresh or sea water unless you used some sort of seal. And sealing it would defeat the purpose for it's application in the first place, wouldn't it? Alan Sent from my iPad Defeats On 12/10/2013, at 4:37 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Joe, > I am a lover of hydraulic anything. I am sure you can go hyd all around with no trouble. Problem is efficiency, they will rob 25%. If you want range, then its no good. If you launch from a ship and look around then it would not matter maybe. With seals the way they are now and magnetic couplers, electric still wins. > I was looking on e bay and there is a magnetic coupler for a water pump that could be modified for our purposes. I like the idea but I have no real need to improve a sub that is perfect :-) Also my budget is hurtin bad. > Hank > > From: Joe Perkel > To: Psubbers Mailist > Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 6:17:20 PM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings > > Some quick questions / observations / musing come to mind as I sit here editing videos. > > It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? > > If DC motors must be used, in my view then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. > > Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. > > Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions) http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf > Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! > > So the question of the day is,... > > Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida / Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Sun Oct 13 23:37:34 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 22:37:34 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Glue Message-ID: If you want to glue a metal canister shut and it be water tight, but still want the ability to take it apart on rare occasions what would you use? I tried silicone and it failed. Any ideas? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Oct 13 23:47:51 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 20:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Glue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1381722471.71145.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Scott,

I've never come across such a thing. To my knowledge the surface structure of metals is not conducive to adhesive bonds.

Then again, I grew up with the Flintstones and the Jetsons!

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Mon Oct 14 02:02:45 2013 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 06:02:45 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Glue Message-ID: <20131013230268.SM06296@[66.162.33.185]> weld it -----Original Message----- From: "swaters" Sent 10/13/2013 8:37:34 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] GlueIf you want to glue a metal canister shut and it be water tight, but still want the ability to take it apart on rare occasions what would you use? I tried silicone and it failed. Any ideas?Thanks,Scott WatersSent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hc.fulton at gmail.com Mon Oct 14 02:19:17 2013 From: hc.fulton at gmail.com (Hugh Fulton) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 19:19:17 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <688C9F8C-10EE-414E-ABEF-24D4D921B7DA@yahoo.com> References: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381631830.60984.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <688C9F8C-10EE-414E-ABEF-24D4D921B7DA@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <525b8ce8.a1de440a.5e7b.ffffeaea@mx.google.com> Hi All, Does anyone know where to get a magnetic coupling similar to the ones being used by Tecnadyne. Regards, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan Sent: Monday, 14 October 2013 4:25 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Hi Hank, With regard to the off the shelf, water pump, magnetic coupler. I wonder if the thrust bearings would be a problem in our application. On a water pump you would have maybe a belt driven pulley on the shaft of the coupler & no need for thrust bearings. Whereas in our application with the propeller exerting force down the shaft they are needed, & if used would be exposed to fresh or sea water unless you used some sort of seal. And sealing it would defeat the purpose for it's application in the first place, wouldn't it? Alan Sent from my iPad Defeats On 12/10/2013, at 4:37 PM, hank pronk wrote: Joe, I am a lover of hydraulic anything. I am sure you can go hyd all around with no trouble. Problem is efficiency, they will rob 25%. If you want range, then its no good. If you launch from a ship and look around then it would not matter maybe. With seals the way they are now and magnetic couplers, electric still wins. I was looking on e bay and there is a magnetic coupler for a water pump that could be modified for our purposes. I like the idea but I have no real need to improve a sub that is perfect :-) Also my budget is hurtin bad. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 6:17:20 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Some quick questions / observations / musing come to mind as I sit here editing videos. It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? If DC motors must be used, in my view then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions) http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! So the question of the day is,... Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida / Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8912 (20131013) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Oct 14 03:29:15 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 21:29:15 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <525b8ce8.a1de440a.5e7b.ffffeaea@mx.google.com> References: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381631830.60984.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <688C9F8C-10EE-414E-ABEF-24D4D921B7DA@yahoo.com> <525b8ce8.a1de440a.5e7b.ffffeaea@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <65026B04-F40F-4C18-AAAB-6C96443E858C@yahoo.com> This Indonesian site looks interesting. For example, 500 watt DC brushless thruster with magnetic coupling for $2500. Love these sites that have prices listed. http://robomarine.com/thrusters.html Alan Sent from my iPad On 13/10/2013, at 8:19 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: > Hi All, > Does anyone know where to get a magnetic coupling similar to the ones being used by Tecnadyne. > Regards, Hugh > > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan > Sent: Monday, 14 October 2013 4:25 p.m. > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings > > Hi Hank, > With regard to the off the shelf, water pump, magnetic coupler. > I wonder if the thrust bearings would be a problem in our application. > On a water pump you would have maybe a belt driven pulley on the shaft > of the coupler & no need for thrust bearings. Whereas in our application with the propeller > exerting force down the shaft they are needed, & if used would be exposed to fresh or sea water unless you used some sort of seal. And sealing it would defeat the purpose for it's application in the first place, wouldn't it? > Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > Defeats > On 12/10/2013, at 4:37 PM, hank pronk wrote: > > Joe, > I am a lover of hydraulic anything. I am sure you can go hyd all around with no trouble. Problem is efficiency, they will rob 25%. If you want range, then its no good. If you launch from a ship and look around then it would not matter maybe. With seals the way they are now and magnetic couplers, electric still wins. > I was looking on e bay and there is a magnetic coupler for a water pump that could be modified for our purposes. I like the idea but I have no real need to improve a sub that is perfect :-) Also my budget is hurtin bad. > Hank > > From: Joe Perkel > To: Psubbers Mailist > Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 6:17:20 PM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings > > Some quick questions / observations / musing come to mind as I sit here editing videos. > > It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? > > If DC motors must be used, in my view then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. > > Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. > > Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions) http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf > Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! > > So the question of the day is,... > > Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida / Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8912 (20131013) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8912 (20131013) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Oct 14 06:09:36 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 06:09:36 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <525b8ce8.a1de440a.5e7b.ffffeaea@mx.google.com> References: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381631830.60984.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <688C9F8C-10EE-414E-ABEF-24D4D921B7DA@yahoo.com> <525b8ce8.a1de440a.5e7b.ffffeaea@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <3134A0A4-6B75-4C79-AE01-2D673D1581D4@yahoo.com> Hugh I'm out at the moment but a google search turned up several manufacturers, with distribution networks. There are several types of couplings and a varied array of specs, some too tiny, some are monsters. Joe Sent from my overpriced iPhone On Oct 14, 2013, at 2:19 AM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: > Hi All, > Does anyone know where to get a magnetic coupling similar to the ones being used by Tecnadyne. > Regards, Hugh > > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan > Sent: Monday, 14 October 2013 4:25 p.m. > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings > > Hi Hank, > With regard to the off the shelf, water pump, magnetic coupler. > I wonder if the thrust bearings would be a problem in our application. > On a water pump you would have maybe a belt driven pulley on the shaft > of the coupler & no need for thrust bearings. Whereas in our application with the propeller > exerting force down the shaft they are needed, & if used would be exposed to fresh or sea water unless you used some sort of seal. And sealing it would defeat the purpose for it's application in the first place, wouldn't it? > Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > Defeats > On 12/10/2013, at 4:37 PM, hank pronk wrote: > > Joe, > I am a lover of hydraulic anything. I am sure you can go hyd all around with no trouble. Problem is efficiency, they will rob 25%. If you want range, then its no good. If you launch from a ship and look around then it would not matter maybe. With seals the way they are now and magnetic couplers, electric still wins. > I was looking on e bay and there is a magnetic coupler for a water pump that could be modified for our purposes. I like the idea but I have no real need to improve a sub that is perfect :-) Also my budget is hurtin bad. > Hank > > From: Joe Perkel > To: Psubbers Mailist > Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 6:17:20 PM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings > > Some quick questions / observations / musing come to mind as I sit here editing videos. > > It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? > > If DC motors must be used, in my view then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. > > Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. > > Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions) http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf > Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! > > So the question of the day is,... > > Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida / Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8912 (20131013) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8912 (20131013) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Oct 14 07:05:19 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 04:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <688C9F8C-10EE-414E-ABEF-24D4D921B7DA@yahoo.com> References: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381631830.60984.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <688C9F8C-10EE-414E-ABEF-24D4D921B7DA@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381748719.7553.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, The water pump I am talking about is a direct drive configuration so to speak.? No belts, but yes you would need to provide a thrust bearing of sorts.? It is really the magnetic coupler your utilizing, the rest gets scrapped or reworked. Hank From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 9:25:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Hi Hank, With regard to the off the shelf, water pump, magnetic coupler. I wonder if the thrust bearings would be a problem in our application. On a water pump you would have maybe a belt driven pulley on the shaft? of the coupler & no need for thrust bearings. Whereas in our application with the propeller exerting force down the shaft?they are needed, & if used would be exposed to fresh or sea water unless you used?some sort of seal. And sealing it would defeat the purpose for it's application in the first place, wouldn't it? Alan Sent from my iPad Defeats On 12/10/2013, at 4:37 PM, hank pronk wrote: Joe, >I am a lover of hydraulic anything.? I am sure you can go hyd all around with no trouble.? Problem is efficiency, they will rob 25%.? If you want range, then its no good.? If you launch from a ship and look around then it would not matter maybe.? With seals the way they are now and magnetic couplers, electric still wins. >I was looking on e bay and there is a magnetic coupler for a water pump that could be modified for our purposes.? I like the idea but I have no real need to improve a sub that is perfect :-)?? Also my budget is hurtin bad. >Hank > > >From: Joe Perkel >To: Psubbers Mailist >Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 6:17:20 PM >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings > > > >Some?quick questions / observations / musing come to mind?as I sit here editing videos. > >It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like?yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? > >If DC motors must be used,?in my view?then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. > >Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. > >Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions)? http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf? >Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! > >So the question of the day is,... > >Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida?/ Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Oct 14 07:06:42 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 04:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Glue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1381748802.50386.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Scott, You can use JB weld, we all have some in our tool box.? It will come apart if you hear it up.? I use it all the time for just this sort of thing. Hank From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 9:37:34 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Glue If you want to glue a metal canister shut and it be water tight, but still want the ability to take it apart on rare occasions what would you use? I tried silicone and it failed. Any ideas? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Oct 14 07:18:14 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 04:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Glue In-Reply-To: <1381748802.50386.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1381748802.50386.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381749494.18893.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Scott, I meant heat it up :-) ? From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 5:06:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Glue Scott, You can use JB weld, we all have some in our tool box.? It will come apart if you hear it up.? I use it all the time for just this sort of thing. Hank From: swaters To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 9:37:34 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Glue If you want to glue a metal canister shut and it be water tight, but still want the ability to take it apart on rare occasions what would you use? I tried silicone and it failed. Any ideas? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Oct 14 07:21:47 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 04:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <65026B04-F40F-4C18-AAAB-6C96443E858C@yahoo.com> References: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381631830.60984.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <688C9F8C-10EE-414E-ABEF-24D4D921B7DA@yahoo.com> <525b8ce8.a1de440a.5e7b.ffffeaea@mx.google.com> <65026B04-F40F-4C18-AAAB-6C96443E858C@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381749707.75869.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, If you look on ebay? under water pump magnetic coupled?,? you will see several examples even some 24v pumps.? Your right, nice thrusters! and the price is not bad. Hank From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 1:29:15 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings This Indonesian site looks interesting. For example, 500 watt DC brushless thruster with magnetic coupling for $2500.? Love these sites that have prices listed. http://robomarine.com/thrusters.html Alan Sent from my iPad On 13/10/2013, at 8:19 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Hi All,? >Does anyone know where to get a magnetic coupling similar to the ones being used by Tecnadyne. >Regards,? Hugh >? >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan >Sent: Monday, 14 October 2013 4:25 p.m. >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings >? >Hi Hank, >With regard to the off the shelf, water pump, magnetic coupler. >I wonder if the thrust bearings would be a problem in our application. >On a water pump you would have maybe a belt driven pulley on the shaft? >of the coupler & no need for thrust bearings. Whereas in our application with the propeller >exerting force down the shaft?they are needed, & if used would be exposed to fresh or sea water unless you used?some sort of seal. And sealing it would defeat the purpose for it's application in the first place, wouldn't it? >Alan >? > > >Sent from my iPad >Defeats >On 12/10/2013, at 4:37 PM, hank pronk wrote: >Joe, >>I am a lover of hydraulic anything.? I am sure you can go hyd all around with no trouble.? Problem is efficiency, they will rob 25%.? If you want range, then its no good.? If you launch from a ship and look around then it would not matter maybe.? With seals the way they are now and magnetic couplers, electric still wins. >>I was looking on e bay and there is a magnetic coupler for a water pump that could be modified for our purposes.? I like the idea but I have no real need to improve a sub that is perfect :-)?? Also my budget is hurtin bad. >>Hank >>? >>From:Joe Perkel >>To: Psubbers Mailist >>Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 6:17:20 PM >>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings >>? >>Some?quick questions / observations / musing come to mind?as I sit here editing videos. >>? >>It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like?yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? >>? >>If DC motors must be used,?in my view?then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. >>? >>Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. >>? >>Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions)? http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf? >>Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! >>? >>So the question of the day is,... >>? >>Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida?/ Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? >>? >>? >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8912 (20131013) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8912 (20131013) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Mon Oct 14 09:25:49 2013 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 09:25:49 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Glue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Duct tape? On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 11:37 PM, swaters wrote: > > If you want to glue a metal canister shut and it be water tight, but still > want the ability to take it apart on rare occasions what would you use? I > tried silicone and it failed. Any ideas? > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Mon Oct 14 10:44:26 2013 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 10:44:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel and UC3 Nautilus Message-ID: <14b58.1cbe7c1c.3f8d5d4a@aol.com> The article below has some information on the diesel in Peter Madsen's UC3 in Denmark: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UC3_Nautilus There are also lots of videos on Youtube if you search UC3 Nautilus. As a side note, Peter has also found another use for his sub: _http://on.aol.com/video/nonprofit-program-building-homemade-rocketship-5179 68056?hp=1&playlist=127155&icid=maing-grid7%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl3%7Csec1_ln k3%26pLid%3D390146_ (http://on.aol.com/video/nonprofit-program-building-homemade-rocketship-517968056?hp=1&playlist=127155&icid=maing-grid7|htmlws-main- bb|dl3|sec1_lnk3&pLid=390146) Jim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Mon Oct 14 11:26:47 2013 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 08:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1381764407.69559.YahooMailBasic@web140904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Just returned home from the keys and want to thank everyone that made the convention a success. Shout-outs for Scott Waters whom did the bulk of the event planning, Suhr family for their terrific support, and Alec Smyth / Cliff Redus for making the long trek with their subs. I have received multiple "thank-you" notes from Plantation Keys School whom are very grateful for our sharing the submarines with their students. The comradery resulting from meeting and socializing in person cannot be overstated, and I join the others whom have recommended attending a future convention if you are able to. It fills the gap left by the impersonal internet tools we usually use for communicating and solidifies friendships made online. The visual memories of SNOOPY diving in the blue waters off the coast of Islamorada and a crowd of people enjoying each others company while sharing a meal at an open-air restaurant and talking "subs" will satisfy me until the next convention. Thanks to all my psubber friends for a great time. Jon From psub101 at indy.rr.com Mon Oct 14 12:03:53 2013 From: psub101 at indy.rr.com (Steve McQueen) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 12:03:53 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Glue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001601cec8f6$faba81c0$f02f8540$@indy.rr.com> There is also a product we used in the Navy. It is a self-vulcanizing tape. It might be a slight step above duct tape for this application. We used it to weather proof cable connectors but I have never tried it for total submersion applications. Steve http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdg_izrJK08 From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 9:26 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Glue Duct tape? On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 11:37 PM, swaters wrote: If you want to glue a metal canister shut and it be water tight, but still want the ability to take it apart on rare occasions what would you use? I tried silicone and it failed. Any ideas? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. CellularC Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Oct 14 14:18:26 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 08:18:26 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <1381749707.75869.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381631830.60984.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <688C9F8C-10EE-414E-ABEF-24D4D921B7DA@yahoo.com> <525b8ce8.a1de440a.5e7b.ffffeaea@mx.google.com> <65026B04-F40F-4C18-AAAB-6C96443E858C@yahoo.com> <1381749707.75869.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Hank, I only looked at these couplings yesterday, but it seemed that the bearings would be exposed to water. I could be wrong. On the Technadyne site it mentions that the magnetic coupling assembly dismantles easily to change the bearings, so I'm wondering if these are a weak point in the system. Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/10/2013, at 1:21 AM, hank pronk wrote: > Alan, > If you look on ebay under water pump magnetic coupled , you will see several examples even some 24v pumps. > Your right, nice thrusters! and the price is not bad. > Hank > > From: Alan > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 1:29:15 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings > > This Indonesian site looks interesting. For example, > 500 watt DC brushless thruster with magnetic coupling for $2500. > Love these sites that have prices listed. > http://robomarine.com/thrusters.html > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 13/10/2013, at 8:19 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: > >> Hi All, >> Does anyone know where to get a magnetic coupling similar to the ones being used by Tecnadyne. >> Regards, Hugh >> >> >> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan >> Sent: Monday, 14 October 2013 4:25 p.m. >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings >> >> Hi Hank, >> With regard to the off the shelf, water pump, magnetic coupler. >> I wonder if the thrust bearings would be a problem in our application. >> On a water pump you would have maybe a belt driven pulley on the shaft >> of the coupler & no need for thrust bearings. Whereas in our application with the propeller >> exerting force down the shaft they are needed, & if used would be exposed to fresh or sea water unless you used some sort of seal. And sealing it would defeat the purpose for it's application in the first place, wouldn't it? >> Alan >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> Defeats >> On 12/10/2013, at 4:37 PM, hank pronk wrote: >> Joe, >> I am a lover of hydraulic anything. I am sure you can go hyd all around with no trouble. Problem is efficiency, they will rob 25%. If you want range, then its no good. If you launch from a ship and look around then it would not matter maybe. With seals the way they are now and magnetic couplers, electric still wins. >> I was looking on e bay and there is a magnetic coupler for a water pump that could be modified for our purposes. I like the idea but I have no real need to improve a sub that is perfect :-) Also my budget is hurtin bad. >> Hank >> >> From: Joe Perkel >> To: Psubbers Mailist >> Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 6:17:20 PM >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings >> >> Some quick questions / observations / musing come to mind as I sit here editing videos. >> >> It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? >> >> If DC motors must be used, in my view then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. >> >> Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. >> >> Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions) http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf >> Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! >> >> So the question of the day is,... >> >> Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida / Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8912 (20131013) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com/ >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8912 (20131013) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Oct 14 15:49:05 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 12:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: References: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381631830.60984.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <688C9F8C-10EE-414E-ABEF-24D4D921B7DA@yahoo.com> <525b8ce8.a1de440a.5e7b.ffffeaea@mx.google.com> <65026B04-F40F-4C18-AAAB-6C96443E858C@yahoo.com> <1381749707.75869.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381780145.65763.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Alan, The impeller that is submerged in water is fixed to a shaft that is supported by a bearing on each side.? I would use the?original ?bearings and put a thrust washer of appropriate material on the shaft shoulder.? One could simply remove the impeller and drill through the pump housing right through the bearing.? Then ?replace the original shaft with a longer shaft machined with a shoulders.? The protruding shaft can be machined to accommodate the appropriate propeller.? Or you could machine a nice nose cone to replace the outer pump body and use the original bearing.? ? Hank From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 12:18:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Thanks Hank, I only looked at these couplings yesterday, but it seemed that the bearings would be exposed to water. I could be wrong. On the Technadyne site it mentions that the magnetic coupling assembly dismantles easily to change the bearings, so I'm wondering if these are a weak point in the system. Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/10/2013, at 1:21 AM, hank pronk wrote: Alan, >If you look on ebay? under water pump magnetic coupled?,? you will see several examples even some 24v pumps.? >Your right, nice thrusters! and the price is not bad. >Hank > > >From: Alan >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 1:29:15 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings > > > >This Indonesian site looks interesting. For example, >500 watt DC brushless thruster with magnetic coupling for $2500.? >Love these sites that have prices listed. >http://robomarine.com/thrusters.html >Alan > > >Sent from my iPad > >On 13/10/2013, at 8:19 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: > > >Hi All,? >>Does anyone know where to get a magnetic coupling similar to the ones being used by Tecnadyne. >>Regards,? Hugh >>? >>? >>From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan >>Sent: Monday, 14 October 2013 4:25 p.m. >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings >> >>Hi Hank, >>With regard to the off the shelf, water pump, magnetic coupler. >>I wonder if the thrust bearings would be a problem in our application. >>On a water pump you would have maybe a belt driven pulley on the shaft? >>of the coupler & no need for thrust bearings. Whereas in our application with the propeller >>exerting force down the shaft?they are needed, & if used would be exposed to fresh or sea water unless you used?some sort of seal. And sealing it would defeat the purpose for it's application in the first place, wouldn't it? >>Alan >> >> >> >> >>Sent from my iPad >>Defeats >>On 12/10/2013, at 4:37 PM, hank pronk wrote: >>Joe, >>>I am a lover of hydraulic anything.? I am sure you can go hyd all around with no trouble.? Problem is efficiency, they will rob 25%.? If you want range, then its no good.? If you launch from a ship and look around then it would not matter maybe.? With seals the way they are now and magnetic couplers, electric still wins. >>>I was looking on e bay and there is a magnetic coupler for a water pump that could be modified for our purposes.? I like the idea but I have no real need to improve a sub that is perfect :-)?? Also my budget is hurtin bad. >>>Hank >>>? >>>From:Joe Perkel >>>To: Psubbers Mailist >>>Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 6:17:20 PM >>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings >>>? >>>Some?quick questions / observations / musing come to mind?as I sit here editing videos. >>>? >>>It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like?yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? >>>? >>>If DC motors must be used,?in my view?then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. >>>? >>>Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. >>>? >>>Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions)? http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf? >>>Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! >>>? >>>So the question of the day is,... >>>? >>>Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida?/ Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? >>>? >>>? >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8912 (20131013) __________ >> >>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >>http://www.eset.com/ >> >>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8912 (20131013) __________ >> >>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >>http://www.eset.com/ >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Oct 14 17:31:48 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 11:31:48 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <1381780145.65763.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381631830.60984.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <688C9F8C-10EE-414E-ABEF-24D4D921B7DA@yahoo.com> <525b8ce8.a1de440a.5e7b.ffffeaea@mx.google.com> <65026B04-F40F-4C18-AAAB-6C96443E858C@yahoo.com> <1381749707.75869.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1381780145.65763.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <90598130-A299-406C-9C6F-87903D2CDA08@yahoo.com> Hi Hank, I'm still not convinced. You would also have to have some sort of bearing for reverse. Are you talking about a washer as your main thrust bearing? I know the Minnkotas don't have more than a washer as a thrust bearing for reverse. Are the original bearings that you are talking about using OK for sea water? Technadyne talks about using a water lubricated bearing on their thrusters. Obviously it works for them & their units are used on some expensive subs & ROVs, but they have modified the technology for their application & the price tag for a thruster is huge. Look forward to your experimentation in this field. Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/10/2013, at 9:49 AM, hank pronk wrote: > Hi Alan, > The impeller that is submerged in water is fixed to a shaft that is supported by a bearing on each side. I would use the original bearings and put a thrust washer of appropriate material on the shaft shoulder. One could simply remove the impeller and drill through the pump housing right through the bearing. Then replace the original shaft with a longer shaft machined with a shoulders. The protruding shaft can be machined to accommodate the appropriate propeller. Or you could machine a nice nose cone to replace the outer pump body and use the original bearing. > > Hank > > From: Alan > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 12:18:26 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings > > Thanks Hank, > I only looked at these couplings yesterday, but it seemed that the bearings would be exposed > to water. I could be wrong. > On the Technadyne site it mentions that the magnetic coupling assembly dismantles easily > to change the bearings, so I'm wondering if these are a weak point in the system. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/10/2013, at 1:21 AM, hank pronk wrote: > >> Alan, >> If you look on ebay under water pump magnetic coupled , you will see several examples even some 24v pumps. >> Your right, nice thrusters! and the price is not bad. >> Hank >> >> From: Alan >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 1:29:15 AM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings >> >> This Indonesian site looks interesting. For example, >> 500 watt DC brushless thruster with magnetic coupling for $2500. >> Love these sites that have prices listed. >> http://robomarine.com/thrusters.html >> Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 13/10/2013, at 8:19 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> Does anyone know where to get a magnetic coupling similar to the ones being used by Tecnadyne. >>> Regards, Hugh >>> >>> >>> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan >>> Sent: Monday, 14 October 2013 4:25 p.m. >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings >>> >>> Hi Hank, >>> With regard to the off the shelf, water pump, magnetic coupler. >>> I wonder if the thrust bearings would be a problem in our application. >>> On a water pump you would have maybe a belt driven pulley on the shaft >>> of the coupler & no need for thrust bearings. Whereas in our application with the propeller >>> exerting force down the shaft they are needed, & if used would be exposed to fresh or sea water unless you used some sort of seal. And sealing it would defeat the purpose for it's application in the first place, wouldn't it? >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> Defeats >>> On 12/10/2013, at 4:37 PM, hank pronk wrote: >>> Joe, >>> I am a lover of hydraulic anything. I am sure you can go hyd all around with no trouble. Problem is efficiency, they will rob 25%. If you want range, then its no good. If you launch from a ship and look around then it would not matter maybe. With seals the way they are now and magnetic couplers, electric still wins. >>> I was looking on e bay and there is a magnetic coupler for a water pump that could be modified for our purposes. I like the idea but I have no real need to improve a sub that is perfect :-) Also my budget is hurtin bad. >>> Hank >>> >>> From: Joe Perkel >>> To: Psubbers Mailist >>> Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 6:17:20 PM >>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings >>> >>> Some quick questions / observations / musing come to mind as I sit here editing videos. >>> >>> It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? >>> >>> If DC motors must be used, in my view then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. >>> >>> Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. >>> >>> Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions) http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf >>> Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! >>> >>> So the question of the day is,... >>> >>> Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida / Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8912 (20131013) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com/ >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8912 (20131013) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Oct 14 17:57:31 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <90598130-A299-406C-9C6F-87903D2CDA08@yahoo.com> References: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381631830.60984.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <688C9F8C-10EE-414E-ABEF-24D4D921B7DA@yahoo.com> <525b8ce8.a1de440a.5e7b.ffffeaea@mx.google.com> <65026B04-F40F-4C18-AAAB-6C96443E858C@yahoo.com> <1381749707.75869.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1381780145.65763.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90598130-A299-406C-9C6F-87903D2CDA08@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381787851.26577.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, The new shaft would have a shoulder for both directions.? Gamma has a water lubricated bearing that would also be a thrust bearing.? Very simple.? I am not planning at this time to experiment because I don't need it.? I was thinking about doing though just for fun. Hank From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 3:31:48 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Hi Hank, I'm still not convinced. You would also have to have some sort of bearing for reverse. Are you talking about a washer as your main thrust bearing? I know the Minnkotas don't have more than a washer as a thrust bearing for reverse. Are the original bearings that you are talking about using OK for sea water?? Technadyne talks about using a water lubricated bearing on their thrusters. Obviously it works for them & their units are used on some expensive subs & ROVs, but they have modified the technology for their application & the price tag for a thruster is huge. Look forward to your experimentation in this field. Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/10/2013, at 9:49 AM, hank pronk wrote: Hi Alan, >The impeller that is submerged in water is fixed to a shaft that is supported by a bearing on each side.? I would use the?original ?bearings and put a thrust washer of appropriate material on the shaft shoulder.? One could simply remove the impeller and drill through the pump housing right through the bearing.? Then ?replace the original shaft with a longer shaft machined with a shoulders.? The protruding shaft can be machined to accommodate the appropriate propeller.? Or you could machine a nice nose cone to replace the outer pump body and use the original bearing.? >? >Hank > > >From: Alan >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 12:18:26 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings > > > >Thanks Hank, >I only looked at these couplings yesterday, but it seemed that the bearings would be exposed >to water. I could be wrong. >On the Technadyne site it mentions that the magnetic coupling assembly dismantles easily >to change the bearings, so I'm wondering if these are a weak point in the system. >Alan > > >Sent from my iPad > >On 14/10/2013, at 1:21 AM, hank pronk wrote: > > >Alan, >>If you look on ebay? under water pump magnetic coupled?,? you will see several examples even some 24v pumps.? >>Your right, nice thrusters! and the price is not bad. >>Hank >> >> >>From: Alan >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 1:29:15 AM >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings >> >> >> >>This Indonesian site looks interesting. For example, >>500 watt DC brushless thruster with magnetic coupling for $2500.? >>Love these sites that have prices listed. >>http://robomarine.com/thrusters.html >>Alan >> >> >>Sent from my iPad >> >>On 13/10/2013, at 8:19 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: >> >> >>Hi All,? >>>Does anyone know where to get a magnetic coupling similar to the ones being used by Tecnadyne. >>>Regards,? Hugh >>>? >>>? >>>From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan >>>Sent: Monday, 14 October 2013 4:25 p.m. >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings >>> >>>Hi Hank, >>>With regard to the off the shelf, water pump, magnetic coupler. >>>I wonder if the thrust bearings would be a problem in our application. >>>On a water pump you would have maybe a belt driven pulley on the shaft? >>>of the coupler & no need for thrust bearings. Whereas in our application with the propeller >>>exerting force down the shaft?they are needed, & if used would be exposed to fresh or sea water unless you used?some sort of seal. And sealing it would defeat the purpose for it's application in the first place, wouldn't it? >>>Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Sent from my iPad >>>Defeats >>>On 12/10/2013, at 4:37 PM, hank pronk wrote: >>>Joe, >>>>I am a lover of hydraulic anything.? I am sure you can go hyd all around with no trouble.? Problem is efficiency, they will rob 25%.? If you want range, then its no good.? If you launch from a ship and look around then it would not matter maybe.? With seals the way they are now and magnetic couplers, electric still wins. >>>>I was looking on e bay and there is a magnetic coupler for a water pump that could be modified for our purposes.? I like the idea but I have no real need to improve a sub that is perfect :-)?? Also my budget is hurtin bad. >>>>Hank >>>>? >>>>From:Joe Perkel >>>>To: Psubbers Mailist >>>>Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 6:17:20 PM >>>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings >>>>? >>>>Some?quick questions / observations / musing come to mind?as I sit here editing videos. >>>>? >>>>It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like?yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? >>>>? >>>>If DC motors must be used,?in my view?then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. >>>>? >>>>Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. >>>>? >>>>Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions)? http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf? >>>>Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! >>>>? >>>>So the question of the day is,... >>>>? >>>>Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida?/ Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? >>>>? >>>>? >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8912 (20131013) __________ >>> >>>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>>http://www.eset.com/ >>> >>>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8912 (20131013) __________ >>> >>>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>>http://www.eset.com/ >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Oct 14 18:13:52 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 15:13:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <1381787851.26577.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381631830.60984.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <688C9F8C-10EE-414E-ABEF-24D4D921B7DA@yahoo.com> <525b8ce8.a1de440a.5e7b.ffffeaea@mx.google.com> <65026B04-F40F-4C18-AAAB-6C96443E858C@yahoo.com> <1381749707.75869.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1381780145.65763.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90598130-A299-406C-9C6F-87903D2CDA08@yahoo.com> <1381787851.26577.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381788832.680.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, What are your sub plans now.? I am sure you have lots of ideas after your big tour. Hank From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 3:57:31 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Alan, The new shaft would have a shoulder for both directions.? Gamma has a water lubricated bearing that would also be a thrust bearing.? Very simple.? I am not planning at this time to experiment because I don't need it.? I was thinking about doing though just for fun. Hank From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 3:31:48 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Hi Hank, I'm still not convinced. You would also have to have some sort of bearing for reverse. Are you talking about a washer as your main thrust bearing? I know the Minnkotas don't have more than a washer as a thrust bearing for reverse. Are the original bearings that you are talking about using OK for sea water?? Technadyne talks about using a water lubricated bearing on their thrusters. Obviously it works for them & their units are used on some expensive subs & ROVs, but they have modified the technology for their application & the price tag for a thruster is huge. Look forward to your experimentation in this field. Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/10/2013, at 9:49 AM, hank pronk wrote: Hi Alan, >The impeller that is submerged in water is fixed to a shaft that is supported by a bearing on each side.? I would use the?original ?bearings and put a thrust washer of appropriate material on the shaft shoulder.? One could simply remove the impeller and drill through the pump housing right through the bearing.? Then ?replace the original shaft with a longer shaft machined with a shoulders.? The protruding shaft can be machined to accommodate the appropriate propeller.? Or you could machine a nice nose cone to replace the outer pump body and use the original bearing.? >? >Hank > > >From: Alan >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 12:18:26 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings > > > >Thanks Hank, >I only looked at these couplings yesterday, but it seemed that the bearings would be exposed >to water. I could be wrong. >On the Technadyne site it mentions that the magnetic coupling assembly dismantles easily >to change the bearings, so I'm wondering if these are a weak point in the system. >Alan > > >Sent from my iPad > >On 14/10/2013, at 1:21 AM, hank pronk wrote: > > >Alan, >>If you look on ebay? under water pump magnetic coupled?,? you will see several examples even some 24v pumps.? >>Your right, nice thrusters! and the price is not bad. >>Hank >> >> >>From: Alan >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 1:29:15 AM >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings >> >> >> >>This Indonesian site looks interesting. For example, >>500 watt DC brushless thruster with magnetic coupling for $2500.? >>Love these sites that have prices listed. >>http://robomarine.com/thrusters.html >>Alan >> >> >>Sent from my iPad >> >>On 13/10/2013, at 8:19 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: >> >> >>Hi All,? >>>Does anyone know where to get a magnetic coupling similar to the ones being used by Tecnadyne. >>>Regards,? Hugh >>>? >>>? >>>From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan >>>Sent: Monday, 14 October 2013 4:25 p.m. >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings >>> >>>Hi Hank, >>>With regard to the off the shelf, water pump, magnetic coupler. >>>I wonder if the thrust bearings would be a problem in our application. >>>On a water pump you would have maybe a belt driven pulley on the shaft? >>>of the coupler & no need for thrust bearings. Whereas in our application with the propeller >>>exerting force down the shaft?they are needed, & if used would be exposed to fresh or sea water unless you used?some sort of seal. And sealing it would defeat the purpose for it's application in the first place, wouldn't it? >>>Alan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Sent from my iPad >>>Defeats >>>On 12/10/2013, at 4:37 PM, hank pronk wrote: >>>Joe, >>>>I am a lover of hydraulic anything.? I am sure you can go hyd all around with no trouble.? Problem is efficiency, they will rob 25%.? If you want range, then its no good.? If you launch from a ship and look around then it would not matter maybe.? With seals the way they are now and magnetic couplers, electric still wins. >>>>I was looking on e bay and there is a magnetic coupler for a water pump that could be modified for our purposes.? I like the idea but I have no real need to improve a sub that is perfect :-)?? Also my budget is hurtin bad. >>>>Hank >>>>? >>>>From:Joe Perkel >>>>To: Psubbers Mailist >>>>Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 6:17:20 PM >>>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings >>>>? >>>>Some?quick questions / observations / musing come to mind?as I sit here editing videos. >>>>? >>>>It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like?yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? >>>>? >>>>If DC motors must be used,?in my view?then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. >>>>? >>>>Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. >>>>? >>>>Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions)? http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf? >>>>Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! >>>>? >>>>So the question of the day is,... >>>>? >>>>Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida?/ Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? >>>>? >>>>? >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8912 (20131013) __________ >>> >>>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>>http://www.eset.com/ >>> >>>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8912 (20131013) __________ >>> >>>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>>http://www.eset.com/ >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Oct 14 18:49:20 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 15:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <1381788832.680.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381790960.54296.YahooMailIosMobile@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I can't speak for Alan of course, but with his free spirit of adventure I'd be eyeing the Puerto Rican trench to recover the lost billion dollar booty of The "Nuestra Se?ora De La Mama Mia" on the very fist dive! :)

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Oct 14 19:05:24 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 16:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <1381790960.54296.YahooMailIosMobile@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381788832.680.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1381790960.54296.YahooMailIosMobile@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381791924.91014.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, count me in, have sub will travel Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 4:49:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings I can't speak for Alan of course, but with his free spirit of adventure I'd be eyeing the Puerto Rican trench to recover the lost billion dollar booty of The "Nuestra Se?ora De La Mama Mia" on the very fist dive! :) Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Sent: Mon, Oct 14, 2013 10:13:52 PM Alan, What are your sub plans now.? I am sure you have lots of ideas after your big tour. Hank From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 3:57:31 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Alan, The new shaft would have a shoulder for both directions.? Gamma has a water lubricated bearing that would also be a thrust bearing.? Very simple.? I am not planning at this time to experiment because I don't need it.? I was thinking about doing though just for fun. Hank From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 3:31:48 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Hi Hank, I'm still not convinced. You would also have to have some sort of bearing for reverse. Are you talking about a washer as your main thrust bearing? I know the Minnkotas don't have more than a washer as a thrust bearing for reverse. Are the original bearings that you are talking about using OK for sea water?? Technadyne talks about using a water lubricated bearing on their thrusters. Obviously it works for them & their units are used on some expensive subs & ROVs, but they have modified the technology for their application & the price tag for a thruster is huge. Look forward to your experimentation in this field. Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/10/2013, at 9:49 AM, hank pronk wrote: Hi Alan, >The impeller that is submerged in water is fixed to a shaft that is supported by a bearing on each side.? I would use the?original ?bearings and put a thrust washer of appropriate material on the shaft shoulder.? One could simply remove the impeller and drill through the pump housing right through the bearing.? Then ?replace the original shaft with a longer shaft machined with a shoulders.? The protruding shaft can be machined to accommodate the appropriate propeller.? Or you could machine a nice nose cone to replace the outer pump body and use the original bearing.? >? >Hank >From: Alan >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 12:18:26 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings > >Thanks Hank, >I only looked at these couplings yesterday, but it seemed that the bearings would be exposed >to water. I could be wrong. >On the Technadyne site it mentions that the magnetic coupling assembly dismantles easily >to change the bearings, so I'm wondering if these are a weak point in the system. >Alan >Sent from my iPad >On 14/10/2013, at 1:21 AM, hank pronk wrote: >Alan, >>If you look on ebay? under water pump magnetic coupled?,? you will see several examples even some 24v pumps.? >>Your right, nice thrusters! and the price is not bad. >>Hank >>From: Alan >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 1:29:15 AM >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings >> >>This Indonesian site looks interesting. For example, >>500 watt DC brushless thruster with magnetic coupling for $2500.? >>Love these sites that have prices listed. >>http://robomarine.com/thrusters.html >>Alan >>Sent from my iPad >>On 13/10/2013, at 8:19 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: >>Hi All,? >>>Does anyone know where to get a magnetic coupling similar to the ones being used by Tecnadyne. >>>Regards,? Hugh >>>? >>>? >>>From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan >>>Sent: Monday, 14 October 2013 4:25 p.m. >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings >>> >>>Hi Hank, >>>With regard to the off the shelf, water pump, magnetic coupler. >>>I wonder if the thrust bearings would be a problem in our application. >>>On a water pump you would have maybe a belt driven pulley on the shaft? >>>of the coupler & no need for thrust bearings. Whereas in our application with the propeller >>>exerting force down the shaft?they are needed, & if used would be exposed to fresh or sea water unless you used?some sort of seal. And sealing it would defeat the purpose for it's application in the first place, wouldn't it? >>>Alan >>> >>> >>>Sent from my iPad >>>DefeatsOn 12/10/2013, at 4:37 PM, hank pronk wrote: >>>Joe, >>>>I am a lover of hydraulic anything.? I am sure you can go hyd all around with no trouble.? Problem is efficiency, they will rob 25%.? If you want range, then its no good.? If you launch from a ship and look around then it would not matter maybe.? With seals the way they are now and magnetic couplers, electric still wins. >>>>I was looking on e bay and there is a magnetic coupler for a water pump that could be modified for our purposes.? I like the idea but I have no real need to improve a sub that is perfect :-)?? Also my budget is hurtin bad. >>>>Hank >>>>? >>>>From:Joe Perkel >>>>To: Psubbers Mailist >>>>Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 6:17:20 PM >>>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings >>>>? >>>>Some?quick questions / observations / musing come to mind?as I sit here editing videos. >>>>? >>>>It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like?yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? >>>>? >>>>If DC motors must be used,?in my view?then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. >>>>? >>>>Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. >>>>? >>>>Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions)? http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf? >>>>Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! >>>>? >>>>So the question of the day is,... >>>>? >>>>Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida?/ Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? >>>>? >>>>? >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8912 (20131013) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8912 (20131013) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ >>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Mon Oct 14 21:49:35 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 20:49:35 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Glue Message-ID: Ok. Thanks guys! Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneSteve McQueen wrote:There is also a product we used in the Navy.? It is a self-vulcanizing tape. It might be a slight step above duct tape for this application.? We used it to weather proof cable connectors but I have never tried it for total submersion applications. Steve ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdg_izrJK08 ? ? ? From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alec Smyth Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 9:26 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Glue ? Duct tape? ? On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 11:37 PM, swaters wrote: ? If you want to glue a metal canister shut and it be water tight, but still want the ability to take it apart on rare occasions what would you use? I tried silicone and it failed. Any ideas? Thanks, Scott Waters ? ? ? ? Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Tue Oct 15 11:59:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 15 Oct 2013 15:59 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <1381791924.91014.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1381788832.680.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1381790960.54296.YahooMailIosMobile@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381791924.91014.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1VW72b-1wFb1c0@fwd12.t-online.de> Sure that it is still there? :-o "hank pronk" schrieb: Joe, count me in, have sub will travel Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 4:49:20 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings I can't speak for Alan of course, but with his free spirit of adventure I'd be eyeing the Puerto Rican trench to recover the lost billion dollar booty of The "Nuestra Se?ora De La Mama Mia" on the very fist dive! :) Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Sent: Mon, Oct 14, 2013 10:13:52 PM Alan, What are your sub plans now. I am sure you have lots of ideas after your big tour. Hank From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 3:57:31 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Alan, The new shaft would have a shoulder for both directions. Gamma has a water lubricated bearing that would also be a thrust bearing. Very simple. I am not planning at this time to experiment because I don't need it. I was thinking about doing though just for fun. Hank From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 3:31:48 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Hi Hank, I'm still not convinced. You would also have to have some sort of bearing for reverse. Are you talking about a washer as your main thrust bearing? I know the Minnkotas don't have more than a washer as a thrust bearing for reverse. Are the original bearings that you are talking about using OK for sea water? Technadyne talks about using a water lubricated bearing on their thrusters. Obviously it works for them & their units are used on some expensive subs & ROVs, but they have modified the technology for their application & the price tag for a thruster is huge. Look forward to your experimentation in this field. Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/10/2013, at 9:49 AM, hank pronk wrote: Hi Alan, The impeller that is submerged in water is fixed to a shaft that is supported by a bearing on each side. I would use the original bearings and put a thrust washer of appropriate material on the shaft shoulder. One could simply remove the impeller and drill through the pump housing right through the bearing. Then replace the original shaft with a longer shaft machined with a shoulders. The protruding shaft can be machined to accommodate the appropriate propeller. Or you could machine a nice nose cone to replace the outer pump body and use the original bearing. Hank From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 12:18:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Thanks Hank, I only looked at these couplings yesterday, but it seemed that the bearings would be exposed to water. I could be wrong. On the Technadyne site it mentions that the magnetic coupling assembly dismantles easily to change the bearings, so I'm wondering if these are a weak point in the system. Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/10/2013, at 1:21 AM, hank pronk wrote: Alan, If you look on ebay under water pump magnetic coupled , you will see several examples even some 24v pumps. Your right, nice thrusters! and the price is not bad. Hank From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 1:29:15 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings This Indonesian site looks interesting. For example, 500 watt DC brushless thruster with magnetic coupling for $2500. Love these sites that have prices listed. http://robomarine.com/thrusters.html Alan Sent from my iPad On 13/10/2013, at 8:19 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Hi All, Does anyone know where to get a magnetic coupling similar to the ones being used by Tecnadyne. Regards, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan Sent: Monday, 14 October 2013 4:25 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Hi Hank, With regard to the off the shelf, water pump, magnetic coupler. I wonder if the thrust bearings would be a problem in our application. On a water pump you would have maybe a belt driven pulley on the shaft of the coupler & no need for thrust bearings. Whereas in our application with the propeller exerting force down the shaft they are needed, & if used would be exposed to fresh or sea water unless you used some sort of seal. And sealing it would defeat the purpose for it's application in the first place, wouldn't it? Alan Sent from my iPad DefeatsOn 12/10/2013, at 4:37 PM, hank pronk wrote: Joe, I am a lover of hydraulic anything. I am sure you can go hyd all around with no trouble. Problem is efficiency, they will rob 25%. If you want range, then its no good. If you launch from a ship and look around then it would not matter maybe. With seals the way they are now and magnetic couplers, electric still wins. I was looking on e bay and there is a magnetic coupler for a water pump that could be modified for our purposes. I like the idea but I have no real need to improve a sub that is perfect :-) Also my budget is hurtin bad. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 6:17:20 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings Some quick questions / observations / musing come to mind as I sit here editing videos. It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? If DC motors must be used, in my view then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions) http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! So the question of the day is,... Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida / Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8912 (20131013) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8912 (20131013) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 13:12:00 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 07:12:00 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings In-Reply-To: <1381788832.680.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1381623440.3075.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1381631830.60984.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <688C9F8C-10EE-414E-ABEF-24D4D921B7DA@yahoo.com> <525b8ce8.a1de440a.5e7b.ffffeaea@mx.google.com> <65026B04-F40F-4C18-AAAB-6C96443E858C@yahoo.com> <1381749707.75869.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1381780145.65763.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90598130-A299-406C-9C6F-87903D2CDA08@yahoo.com> <1381787851.26577.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1381788832.680.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2F0A7F1F-70E9-4EDF-945A-26A0C060C832@yahoo.com> Hi Hank, I don't have any changes to my general design, but there are some major Changes to how I go about fabricating the hull. I just need to do a lot of research on it. I have a lot more information to work with for all the finer points. As for Joe's "free spirit" comment. It's no wife & kids left home. And to tell you the truth I'm in no hurry to get in to a relationship before my next subs finished. Alan Sent from my iPad On 14/10/2013, at 12:13 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Alan, > What are your sub plans now. I am sure you have lots of ideas after your big tour. > Hank > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 3:57:31 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings > > Alan, > The new shaft would have a shoulder for both directions. Gamma has a water lubricated bearing that would also be a thrust bearing. Very simple. I am not planning at this time to experiment because I don't need it. I was thinking about doing though just for fun. > Hank > > From: Alan > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 3:31:48 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings > > Hi Hank, > I'm still not convinced. You would also have to have some sort of bearing for reverse. > Are you talking about a washer as your main thrust bearing? I know the Minnkotas don't have more than a washer as a thrust bearing for reverse. > Are the original bearings that you are talking about using OK for sea water? > Technadyne talks about using a water lubricated bearing on their thrusters. > Obviously it works for them & their units are used on some expensive subs & ROVs, but > they have modified the technology for their application & the price tag for a thruster is huge. > Look forward to your experimentation in this field. > Alan > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 14/10/2013, at 9:49 AM, hank pronk wrote: > >> Hi Alan, >> The impeller that is submerged in water is fixed to a shaft that is supported by a bearing on each side. I would use the original bearings and put a thrust washer of appropriate material on the shaft shoulder. One could simply remove the impeller and drill through the pump housing right through the bearing. Then replace the original shaft with a longer shaft machined with a shoulders. The protruding shaft can be machined to accommodate the appropriate propeller. Or you could machine a nice nose cone to replace the outer pump body and use the original bearing. >> >> Hank >> >> From: Alan >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 12:18:26 PM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings >> >> Thanks Hank, >> I only looked at these couplings yesterday, but it seemed that the bearings would be exposed >> to water. I could be wrong. >> On the Technadyne site it mentions that the magnetic coupling assembly dismantles easily >> to change the bearings, so I'm wondering if these are a weak point in the system. >> Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 14/10/2013, at 1:21 AM, hank pronk wrote: >> >>> Alan, >>> If you look on ebay under water pump magnetic coupled , you will see several examples even some 24v pumps. >>> Your right, nice thrusters! and the price is not bad. >>> Hank >>> >>> From: Alan >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 1:29:15 AM >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings >>> >>> This Indonesian site looks interesting. For example, >>> 500 watt DC brushless thruster with magnetic coupling for $2500. >>> Love these sites that have prices listed. >>> http://robomarine.com/thrusters.html >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 13/10/2013, at 8:19 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: >>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> Does anyone know where to get a magnetic coupling similar to the ones being used by Tecnadyne. >>>> Regards, Hugh >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan >>>> Sent: Monday, 14 October 2013 4:25 p.m. >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings >>>> >>>> Hi Hank, >>>> With regard to the off the shelf, water pump, magnetic coupler. >>>> I wonder if the thrust bearings would be a problem in our application. >>>> On a water pump you would have maybe a belt driven pulley on the shaft >>>> of the coupler & no need for thrust bearings. Whereas in our application with the propeller >>>> exerting force down the shaft they are needed, & if used would be exposed to fresh or sea water unless you used some sort of seal. And sealing it would defeat the purpose for it's application in the first place, wouldn't it? >>>> Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> Defeats >>>> On 12/10/2013, at 4:37 PM, hank pronk wrote: >>>> Joe, >>>> I am a lover of hydraulic anything. I am sure you can go hyd all around with no trouble. Problem is efficiency, they will rob 25%. If you want range, then its no good. If you launch from a ship and look around then it would not matter maybe. With seals the way they are now and magnetic couplers, electric still wins. >>>> I was looking on e bay and there is a magnetic coupler for a water pump that could be modified for our purposes. I like the idea but I have no real need to improve a sub that is perfect :-) Also my budget is hurtin bad. >>>> Hank >>>> >>>> From: Joe Perkel >>>> To: Psubbers Mailist >>>> Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 6:17:20 PM >>>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thrusters, Air & Diesel Musings >>>> >>>> Some quick questions / observations / musing come to mind as I sit here editing videos. >>>> >>>> It looks to me like Alvin's thrusters all have a 90 deg drive arrangement like yacht bow thrusters. Some of these off the shelf units are hydraulic, but way over powered for a Delta / Gamma sized sub. There are however, lots of little hydraulic motors out there, a slew of them. Ive also seen drive components, reductions, etc, that simply were not available to George. How much trouble would it be to go hydraulic all around? >>>> >>>> If DC motors must be used, in my view then the single must have improvement to the T-Rex design is the addition of a mag coupling. >>>> >>>> Alecs experience has me rethinking self sufficiency. It would be nice to charge the batteries and the HP tanks independent of a surface boat, eliminating the need to raft alongside in swells. All this convenience means a "Tours 66" type of arrangement. But Tours 66 weighed in at 10 tons. >>>> >>>> Everything is now downsized like that little AC unit I posted,.. take a look at this marine gen-set (note dimensions) http://www.nextgenerationpower.com/Info/Support/3-5Specs.pdf >>>> Hmm, could this not be enclosed in the hull during a build, or otherwise slung longways down the hatch into a 42" hull? No prop shaft and seals, (you still get towed) but independent re-charge capability for both batteries and HP air with an equally downsized compressor!?! >>>> >>>> So the question of the day is,... >>>> >>>> Is a comfy air conditioned & self sufficient research capable PSUB for sport diving in Florida / Caribbean waters, a realistic goal at around 3.5 tons and $8-$10 lb? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8912 (20131013) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com/ >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8912 (20131013) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com/ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 13:29:28 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 07:29:28 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Emergency Buoy Message-ID: <20FD0002-8E86-47CE-850D-3520A8859698@yahoo.com> I don't think Alec will mind me mentioning this. After Alec & Steve's epic dive, which preceded with them being towed for hours in Snoopy; It was discovered that the cord on the emergency release buoy was tangled & wouldn't have been operational if they had wanted to deploy it. It was probably all the wave motion through towing, hitting the drum & causing it to spool & birds nest. They dived without opening the hatch, so weren't aware of the problem. I am not sure of the release mechanism that Alec uses, but this is another thing that needs to be thought about in design & operation. Alan Sent from my iPad From alecsmyth at gmail.com Tue Oct 15 14:46:40 2013 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 14:46:40 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Emergency Buoy In-Reply-To: <20FD0002-8E86-47CE-850D-3520A8859698@yahoo.com> References: <20FD0002-8E86-47CE-850D-3520A8859698@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yep, it is about a 10 minute improvement that will prevent that. The buoy presses on the reel to prevent the latter from moving until the buoy is released. The press point has to be made slightly more aggressive to hold it fast when there is wave motion under tow. Typical little lesson learned! On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Alan wrote: > I don't think Alec will mind me mentioning this. > After Alec & Steve's epic dive, which preceded with them being towed for > hours in Snoopy; > It was discovered that the cord on the emergency release buoy was tangled > & wouldn't have > been operational if they had wanted to deploy it. > It was probably all the wave motion through towing, hitting the drum & > causing it to spool > & birds nest. > They dived without opening the hatch, so weren't aware of the problem. > I am not sure of the release mechanism that Alec uses, but this is another > thing that needs > to be thought about in design & operation. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 16:38:54 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 13:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Emergency Buoy In-Reply-To: <20FD0002-8E86-47CE-850D-3520A8859698@yahoo.com> References: <20FD0002-8E86-47CE-850D-3520A8859698@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381869534.66347.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Im still trying to wrap my head around two men sealed into a 36" ID steel drum on a sunny day?in Florida! ? Joe ________________________________ From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 1:29 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Emergency Buoy I don't think Alec will mind me mentioning this. After Alec & Steve's epic dive, which preceded with them being towed for hours in Snoopy; It was discovered that the cord on the emergency release buoy was tangled & wouldn't have been? operational if they had wanted to deploy it. It was probably all the wave motion through towing, hitting the drum & causing it to spool & birds nest. They dived without opening the hatch, so weren't aware of the problem. I am not sure of the release mechanism that Alec uses, but this is another thing that needs to be thought about in design & operation. Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Vbra676539 at AOL.com Tue Oct 15 19:05:57 2013 From: Vbra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 19:05:57 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Emergency Buoy In-Reply-To: <1381869534.66347.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <20FD0002-8E86-47CE-850D-3520A8859698@yahoo.com> <1381869534.66347.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: They are MUCH better friends now. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 15, 2013, at 4:38 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Im still trying to wrap my head around two men sealed into a 36" ID steel drum on a sunny day in Florida! > > Joe > > From: Alan > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 1:29 PM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Emergency Buoy > > I don't think Alec will mind me mentioning this. > After Alec & Steve's epic dive, which preceded with them being towed for hours in Snoopy; > It was discovered that the cord on the emergency release buoy was tangled & wouldn't have > been operational if they had wanted to deploy it. > It was probably all the wave motion through towing, hitting the drum & causing it to spool > & birds nest. > They dived without opening the hatch, so weren't aware of the problem. > I am not sure of the release mechanism that Alec uses, but this is another thing that needs > to be thought about in design & operation. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Tue Oct 15 23:02:01 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 20:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Message-ID: <1381892521.89111.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Since my Navy "A" school is some 30+ years ago, I need a little help in trying to understand and?match up something close to Georges motors. What I dont understand is why is there such an array of DC motors in the 1 - 3 hp range with wildly varing input voltages? If you notice those Tecnadyne thrusters have stupendous input voltages up to 330vdc. I dont understand why and need a primer on DC systems for this application. Can anyone point me to one? What I'm trying to do is to slim down the housing, get more bollard?thrust from the prop by adding a real kort nozzle, and use a mag coupling instead of a shaft seal, all else remaining essentially the same. I want to slim down Georges T-Rex cans with similar power specs, but new and improved components, keeping the items conducive to homebuilding, like the housings and mountings, electrical penetrators, shaft seals if I cant do mag couplings. What I've found so far http://www.baldor.com/support/literature_load.asp?LitNumber=FL1210? fractional hp and up to 3 hp @ 1800 rpm but, here again @ 320vdc !? Whats attractive about this one is the dimensions, 6.5" on the mounting?flange would fit quite nicely in the 6 nom SCH40 pipe which is 6.625" But?I dont know what im doing with regard to the input voltage / output power / torque?relationship and how to match this all up correctly. ?All Ive confirmed so far is that Georges motors were TENV (totally enclosed non-ventilated), 36vdc @ 1800 to 3600 rpm for 1/2 and 3 hp respectively. Joe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jumachine at comcast.net Wed Oct 16 09:48:13 2013 From: jumachine at comcast.net (Dan H.) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 09:48:13 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer References: <1381892521.89111.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00d701ceca76$5be2e070$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> Those high voltage DC motors are designed for variable speed drives where the power is first line voltage AC then converted to DC through a motor controller for accurate motor speeds and torque. They aren't practical for a battery powered system. For battery powered systems your probably better off to stick to the lower voltage motors. With an inverter I guess you could convert the battery power to high voltage AC then convert it to DC, but I'm pretty sure you'd find it impractical with the extra equipment. It's hard to beat golf cart controllers for speed regulation and there's tons of them out there. Battery powered floor scrubbers use a variety of DC motors too. Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 11:02 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Since my Navy "A" school is some 30+ years ago, I need a little help in trying to understand and match up something close to Georges motors. What I dont understand is why is there such an array of DC motors in the 1 - 3 hp range with wildly varing input voltages? If you notice those Tecnadyne thrusters have stupendous input voltages up to 330vdc. I dont understand why and need a primer on DC systems for this application. Can anyone point me to one? What I'm trying to do is to slim down the housing, get more bollard thrust from the prop by adding a real kort nozzle, and use a mag coupling instead of a shaft seal, all else remaining essentially the same. I want to slim down Georges T-Rex cans with similar power specs, but new and improved components, keeping the items conducive to homebuilding, like the housings and mountings, electrical penetrators, shaft seals if I cant do mag couplings. What I've found so far http://www.baldor.com/support/literature_load.asp?LitNumber=FL1210 fractional hp and up to 3 hp @ 1800 rpm but, here again @ 320vdc !? Whats attractive about this one is the dimensions, 6.5" on the mounting flange would fit quite nicely in the 6 nom SCH40 pipe which is 6.625" But I dont know what im doing with regard to the input voltage / output power / torque relationship and how to match this all up correctly. All Ive confirmed so far is that Georges motors were TENV (totally enclosed non-ventilated), 36vdc @ 1800 to 3600 rpm for 1/2 and 3 hp respectively. Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 14:08:08 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 11:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer In-Reply-To: <00d701ceca76$5be2e070$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> Message-ID: <1381946888.63772.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Dan,

What I was hoping to find was BLDC motors matching 36v 1800 - 3600 rpm, 1/2 to 2 hp range. They don't seem to be out there.

I have matched up brushed motors with those specs at both Baldor and Leeson with the appropriate face plates. But, then we are back to the same large / heavy motors at least there in the $500 range.

You have the standard motors on Persistence, what are the size and pitch of the respective props?

I'm going to just have to suck it up and draw these up with new Kort nozzles.

Thanks!

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Vbra676539 at AOL.com Wed Oct 16 15:27:28 2013 From: Vbra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:27:28 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer In-Reply-To: <1381946888.63772.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381946888.63772.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <98C58F40-BF4C-4513-9C0B-A0B88245CDC2@AOL.com> Sent from my iPhone On Oct 16, 2013, at 2:08 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Dan, > > What I was hoping to find was BLDC motors matching 36v 1800 - 3600 rpm, 1/2 to 2 hp range. They don't seem to be out there. > > I have matched up brushed motors with those specs at both Baldor and Leeson with the appropriate face plates. But, then we are back to the same large / heavy motors at least there in the $500 range. > > You have the standard motors on Persistence, what are the size and pitch of the respective props? > > I'm going to just have to suck it up and draw these up with new Kort nozzles. > > Thanks! > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > From: Dan H. ; > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer > Sent: Wed, Oct 16, 2013 1:48:13 PM > > Those high voltage DC motors are designed for variable speed drives where the power is first line voltage AC then converted to DC through a motor controller for accurate motor speeds and torque. They aren't practical for a battery powered system. > > For battery powered systems your probably better off to stick to the lower voltage motors. With an inverter I guess you could convert the battery power to high voltage AC then convert it to DC, but I'm pretty sure you'd find it impractical with the extra equipment. > > It's hard to beat golf cart controllers for speed regulation and there's tons of them out there. Battery powered floor scrubbers use a variety of DC motors too. > > Dan H. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joe Perkel > To: Psubbers Mailist > Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 11:02 PM > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer > > Since my Navy "A" school is some 30+ years ago, I need a little help in trying to understand and match up something close to Georges motors. What I dont understand is why is there such an array of DC motors in the 1 - 3 hp range with wildly varing input voltages? > > If you notice those Tecnadyne thrusters have stupendous input voltages up to 330vdc. I dont understand why and need a primer on DC systems for this application. Can anyone point me to one? > > What I'm trying to do is to slim down the housing, get more bollard thrust from the prop by adding a real kort nozzle, and use a mag coupling instead of a shaft seal, all else remaining essentially the same. > > I want to slim down Georges T-Rex cans with similar power specs, but new and improved components, keeping the items conducive to homebuilding, like the housings and mountings, electrical penetrators, shaft seals if I cant do mag couplings. > > What I've found so far http://www.baldor.com/support/literature_load.asp?LitNumber=FL1210 fractional hp and up to 3 hp @ 1800 rpm but, here again @ 320vdc !? > > Whats attractive about this one is the dimensions, 6.5" on the mounting flange would fit quite nicely in the 6 nom SCH40 pipe which is 6.625" > > But I dont know what im doing with regard to the input voltage / output power / torque relationship and how to match this all up correctly. All Ive confirmed so far is that Georges motors were TENV (totally enclosed non-ventilated), 36vdc @ 1800 to 3600 rpm for 1/2 and 3 hp respectively. > > Joe > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jumachine at comcast.net Wed Oct 16 15:26:03 2013 From: jumachine at comcast.net (Dan H.) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:26:03 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer References: <1381946888.63772.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001401cecaa5$8e213a80$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> Joe, I have to plead ignorance on the BLDC motor. I'm guessing it's some kind of permanent magnet field DC motor... Correct? Typically they are smaller in diameter then a wound field type. For my rear thruster I got the last of the three horsepower motors George had. So my rear thruster in pretty much as the plans show. My side thrusters are even a bit larger then the plans since I found two 3/4 HP brush type, 36 volt motors for very cheep in a surplus close out. I built around them but similar to the plans. To get props for them I called Michigan Wheel and gave them my HP and RPMs and a description of my sub. They recommended the props and sold them to me. When I was doing my wet testing, I put a amp meter in the motor power line and found the side thrusters were fine but the rear thruster was drawing a little to many amps. A little hand grinding to reduce the area of the prop blades brought the amperage down to the max rating for the motor. I don't know if that the best way, but it worked for me. Now if your thinking of building a true Kort nozzle your definitely going to have to do some experimenting. Even the prop guards as called out on the plans effect the prop efficiency and so also the motor load. You may be better off to find your motors then figure out what you can attach to them, open prop, shrouded prop or Kort nozzle. Anything will move the sub. I have a total of 4.5 HP and I don't know if I could control any more power as the sub gets squirrelly when trying to travel fast. When submerged, the side thruster are almost all that's needed. Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Dan, What I was hoping to find was BLDC motors matching 36v 1800 - 3600 rpm, 1/2 to 2 hp range. They don't seem to be out there. I have matched up brushed motors with those specs at both Baldor and Leeson with the appropriate face plates. But, then we are back to the same large / heavy motors at least there in the $500 range. You have the standard motors on Persistence, what are the size and pitch of the respective props? I'm going to just have to suck it up and draw these up with new Kort nozzles. Thanks! Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Dan H. ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Sent: Wed, Oct 16, 2013 1:48:13 PM Those high voltage DC motors are designed for variable speed drives where the power is first line voltage AC then converted to DC through a motor controller for accurate motor speeds and torque. They aren't practical for a battery powered system. For battery powered systems your probably better off to stick to the lower voltage motors. With an inverter I guess you could convert the battery power to high voltage AC then convert it to DC, but I'm pretty sure you'd find it impractical with the extra equipment. It's hard to beat golf cart controllers for speed regulation and there's tons of them out there. Battery powered floor scrubbers use a variety of DC motors too. Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 11:02 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Since my Navy "A" school is some 30+ years ago, I need a little help in trying to understand and match up something close to Georges motors. What I dont understand is why is there such an array of DC motors in the 1 - 3 hp range with wildly varing input voltages? If you notice those Tecnadyne thrusters have stupendous input voltages up to 330vdc. I dont understand why and need a primer on DC systems for this application. Can anyone point me to one? What I'm trying to do is to slim down the housing, get more bollard thrust from the prop by adding a real kort nozzle, and use a mag coupling instead of a shaft seal, all else remaining essentially the same. I want to slim down Georges T-Rex cans with similar power specs, but new and improved components, keeping the items conducive to homebuilding, like the housings and mountings, electrical penetrators, shaft seals if I cant do mag couplings. What I've found so far http://www.baldor.com/support/literature_load.asp?LitNumber=FL1210 fractional hp and up to 3 hp @ 1800 rpm but, here again @ 320vdc !? Whats attractive about this one is the dimensions, 6.5" on the mounting flange would fit quite nicely in the 6 nom SCH40 pipe which is 6.625" But I dont know what im doing with regard to the input voltage / output power / torque relationship and how to match this all up correctly. All Ive confirmed so far is that Georges motors were TENV (totally enclosed non-ventilated), 36vdc @ 1800 to 3600 rpm for 1/2 and 3 hp respectively. Joe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 16:49:36 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 13:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer In-Reply-To: <001401cecaa5$8e213a80$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> References: <1381946888.63772.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <001401cecaa5$8e213a80$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> Message-ID: <1381956576.34654.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Dan, ? No expert either, the learning curve is steep here. I do know however?that they are harder to control and more costly than brushed, with the advantages they offer though that seems acceptable. I noted that very "squrrillyness" and your comments on that one video, but?I was also encouraged by the capability of that motor and your side thrusters. The Islamorada convention demonstrates for the most part, my conditions here. The USS Spiegel Grove wreck and others like it for both day and night conditions, is the pinnacle of?what I would strive for as far as capability. A maximum 5 - 7 miles to tow a submersible is reasonable and brings within range more stuff than I could do in a lifetime. It just really can't be anything bigger that a Nekton boat. ? Obviously the K-350 as drawn now is wholly inadequate but, it has really good "bones" to work with here. Think an Alvin or Shinkai type of exoframe covered with FRP panels, and you get the idea of what I'm contemplating. I have a thing for replicas, and this little bugger could be made pretty dam close and be quite functional. ? I'm liking George's thruster design more and more as I dig further. Six interchangeable 1 HP spam cans in Alvin's configuration, just may do the job. I have to see where the weight and size fall to be sure. ? Thanks Dan! ? Joe ? ? ? ? ________________________________ From: Dan H. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Joe, ? I have to plead ignorance on the BLDC motor.? I'm guessing it's some kind of permanent magnet field DC motor... Correct??? Typically they are smaller in diameter then a wound field type.? ? For my rear thruster I got the last of the three horsepower motors George had.? So my rear thruster in pretty much as the plans show.? ? My side thrusters are even a bit larger then the plans since I found two 3/4 HP brush type, 36 volt motors for very cheep in a surplus close out.? I built around them but similar to the plans.? ? To get props for them I called Michigan Wheel and?gave them my HP and RPMs and a description of my sub.? They recommended the props and?sold them to me.? ? When I was doing my wet testing, I put a amp meter in the motor power line and found?the side thrusters were fine but the rear thruster?was drawing a little to many amps.? A little hand grinding to reduce the area of the prop blades?brought the amperage down to the max rating for the motor.? I don't know if that the best way, but it worked for me.? ? Now if your thinking of building a true Kort nozzle your definitely going to have to do some experimenting.? Even the prop guards as called out on the plans effect the prop efficiency and so also the motor load.? ? You may be better off to find your motors then figure out what you can attach to them, open prop, shrouded prop or Kort nozzle.? Anything will move the sub.? I have a total of 4.5 HP and I don't know if I could control any more power as the sub gets squirrelly when trying to travel fast.? When submerged, the side thruster are almost all that's needed. ? Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- >From: Joe Perkel >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 2:08 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer > > >Dan, > >What I was hoping to find was BLDC motors matching 36v 1800 - 3600 rpm, 1/2 to 2 hp range. They don't seem to be out there. > >I have matched up brushed motors with those specs at both Baldor and Leeson with the appropriate face plates. But, then we are back to the same large / heavy motors at least there in the $500 range. > >You have the standard motors on Persistence, what are the size and pitch of the respective props? > >I'm going to just have to suck it up and draw these up with new Kort nozzles. > >Thanks! > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > >________________________________ >From: Dan H. ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Sent: Wed, Oct 16, 2013 1:48:13 PM >Those high voltage DC motors are designed for variable speed drives where the power is first line voltage AC then converted to DC through a motor controller for accurate motor speeds and torque.??They aren't practical for a battery powered system. >? >For battery powered systems your probably better off to stick to the lower voltage motors.? With an inverter I guess you could convert the battery power to high voltage AC then convert it to DC, but I'm pretty sure you'd find it impractical with the extra equipment.? >? >It's hard to beat golf cart controllers for speed regulation and there's tons of them out there.? Battery powered floor scrubbers use a variety of DC motors too. >? >Dan H. >? >----- Original Message ----- >>From: Joe Perkel >>To: Psubbers Mailist >>Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 11:02 PM >>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer >>Since my Navy "A" school is some 30+ years ago, I need a little help in trying to understand and?match up something close to Georges motors. What I dont understand is why is there such an array of DC motors in the 1 - 3 hp range with wildly varing input voltages? >> >>If you notice those Tecnadyne thrusters have stupendous input voltages up to 330vdc. I dont understand why and need a primer on DC systems for this application. Can anyone point me to one? >> >>What I'm trying to do is to slim down the housing, get more bollard?thrust from the prop by adding a real kort nozzle, and use a mag coupling instead of a shaft seal, all else remaining essentially the same. >> >>I want to slim down Georges T-Rex cans with similar power specs, but new and improved components, keeping the items conducive to homebuilding, like the housings and mountings, electrical penetrators, shaft seals if I cant do mag couplings. >> >>What I've found so far http://www.baldor.com/support/literature_load.asp?LitNumber=FL1210? fractional hp and up to 3 hp @ 1800 rpm but, here again @ 320vdc !? >> >>Whats attractive about this one is the dimensions, 6.5" on the mounting?flange would fit quite nicely in the 6 nom SCH40 pipe which is 6.625" >> >>But?I dont know what im doing with regard to the input voltage / output power / torque?relationship and how to match this all up correctly. ?All Ive confirmed so far is that Georges motors were TENV (totally enclosed non-ventilated), 36vdc @ 1800 to 3600 rpm for 1/2 and 3 hp respectively. >> >>Joe >> >> >> >>________________________________ >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >________________________________ >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 16 17:32:21 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 14:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer In-Reply-To: <001401cecaa5$8e213a80$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> References: <1381946888.63772.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <001401cecaa5$8e213a80$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> Message-ID: <1381959141.51999.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Joe, If you build a Nekton style sub, you can just cruise out to the ?wreck with no tender.? I will be searching for lost gold in the spring with Gamma at 400 feet.? I have to cross about a mile of lake to get to the search area.? I plan to do that at depth.? ? This style of sub has a great range due to the shape.? The sub has only 2hp with a kurtis controller, ?so simple and it cruises at 3.5 knots at 70 amps.? I do love your Alvin jr though.?? I also am a huge fan of the K style thruster, indestructible heavy wound motor. Hank? From: Dan H. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 1:26:03 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Joe, ? I have to plead ignorance on the BLDC motor.? I'm guessing it's some kind of permanent magnet field DC motor... Correct??? Typically they are smaller in diameter then a wound field type.? ? For my rear thruster I got the last of the three horsepower motors George had.? So my rear thruster in pretty much as the plans show.? ? My side thrusters are even a bit larger then the plans since I found two 3/4 HP brush type, 36 volt motors for very cheep in a surplus close out.? I built around them but similar to the plans.? ? To get props for them I called Michigan Wheel and?gave them my HP and RPMs and a description of my sub.? They recommended the props and?sold them to me.? ? When I was doing my wet testing, I put a amp meter in the motor power line and found?the side thrusters were fine but the rear thruster?was drawing a little to many amps.? A little hand grinding to reduce the area of the prop blades?brought the amperage down to the max rating for the motor.? I don't know if that the best way, but it worked for me.? ? Now if your thinking of building a true Kort nozzle your definitely going to have to do some experimenting.? Even the prop guards as called out on the plans effect the prop efficiency and so also the motor load.? ? You may be better off to find your motors then figure out what you can attach to them, open prop, shrouded prop or Kort nozzle.? Anything will move the sub.? I have a total of 4.5 HP and I don't know if I could control any more power as the sub gets squirrelly when trying to travel fast.? When submerged, the side thruster are almost all that's needed. ? Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- >From: Joe Perkel >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 2:08 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer > > >Dan, > >What I was hoping to find was BLDC motors matching 36v 1800 - 3600 rpm, 1/2 to 2 hp range. They don't seem to be out there. > >I have matched up brushed motors with those specs at both Baldor and Leeson with the appropriate face plates. But, then we are back to the same large / heavy motors at least there in the $500 range. > >You have the standard motors on Persistence, what are the size and pitch of the respective props? > >I'm going to just have to suck it up and draw these up with new Kort nozzles. > >Thanks! > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >From: Dan H. ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Sent: Wed, Oct 16, 2013 1:48:13 PM >Those high voltage DC motors are designed for variable speed drives where the power is first line voltage AC then converted to DC through a motor controller for accurate motor speeds and torque.??They aren't practical for a battery powered system. >? >For battery powered systems your probably better off to stick to the lower voltage motors.? With an inverter I guess you could convert the battery power to high voltage AC then convert it to DC, but I'm pretty sure you'd find it impractical with the extra equipment.? >? >It's hard to beat golf cart controllers for speed regulation and there's tons of them out there.? Battery powered floor scrubbers use a variety of DC motors too. >? >Dan H. >? >----- Original Message ----- >>From: Joe Perkel >>To: Psubbers Mailist >>Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 11:02 PM >>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer >>Since my Navy "A" school is some 30+ years ago, I need a little help in trying to understand and?match up something close to Georges motors. What I dont understand is why is there such an array of DC motors in the 1 - 3 hp range with wildly varing input voltages? >> >>If you notice those Tecnadyne thrusters have stupendous input voltages up to 330vdc. I dont understand why and need a primer on DC systems for this application. Can anyone point me to one? >> >>What I'm trying to do is to slim down the housing, get more bollard?thrust from the prop by adding a real kort nozzle, and use a mag coupling instead of a shaft seal, all else remaining essentially the same. >> >>I want to slim down Georges T-Rex cans with similar power specs, but new and improved components, keeping the items conducive to homebuilding, like the housings and mountings, electrical penetrators, shaft seals if I cant do mag couplings. >> >>What I've found so far http://www.baldor.com/support/literature_load.asp?LitNumber=FL1210? fractional hp and up to 3 hp @ 1800 rpm but, here again @ 320vdc !? >> >>Whats attractive about this one is the dimensions, 6.5" on the mounting?flange would fit quite nicely in the 6 nom SCH40 pipe which is 6.625" >> >>But?I dont know what im doing with regard to the input voltage / output power / torque?relationship and how to match this all up correctly. ?All Ive confirmed so far is that Georges motors were TENV (totally enclosed non-ventilated), 36vdc @ 1800 to 3600 rpm for 1/2 and 3 hp respectively. >> >>Joe >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Wed Oct 16 17:37:50 2013 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 17:37:50 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer In-Reply-To: <1381956576.34654.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381946888.63772.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <001401cecaa5$8e213a80$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> <1381956576.34654.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Joe, Actually I would say a K-250 might be inadequate, mainly due to the low freeboard and small 12 volt thrusters, but that you might find a 350 quite suitable. A 350 has way better freeboard, big battery pods instead of just three batteries, and about three times the top speed of a 250 (useful in a pinch given the currents you have there). Although there are lots of things that could be modernized, my impression is you would find the K-350 quite seaworthy for Southern Florida. I haven't actually used one there, just my 250, but 350s have operated plenty in open water. Including for instance Harold Maynard operating one in your neighborhood for decades. Best, Alec On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 4:49 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Dan, > > No expert either, the learning curve is steep here. I do know however that > they are harder to control and more costly than brushed, with the > advantages they offer though that seems acceptable. > I noted that very "squrrillyness" and your comments on that one video, > but I was also encouraged by the capability of that motor and your side > thrusters. The Islamorada convention demonstrates for the most part, my > conditions here. The USS Spiegel Grove wreck and others like it for both > day and night conditions, is the pinnacle of what I would strive for as far > as capability. A maximum 5 - 7 miles to tow a submersible is reasonable and > brings within range more stuff than I could do in a lifetime. It just > really can't be anything bigger that a Nekton boat. > > Obviously the K-350 as drawn now is wholly inadequate but, it has really > good "bones" to work with here. Think an Alvin or Shinkai type of exoframecovered with > FRP panels, and you get the idea of what I'm contemplating. I have a > thing for replicas, and this little bugger could be made pretty dam close > and be quite functional. > > I'm liking George's thruster design more and more as I dig further. Six > interchangeable 1 HP spam cans in Alvin's configuration, just may do the > job. I have to see where the weight and size fall to be sure. > > Thanks Dan! > > Joe > > > > > > *From:* Dan H. > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 16, 2013 3:26 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer > ** > Joe, > > I have to plead ignorance on the BLDC motor. I'm guessing it's some kind > of permanent magnet field DC motor... Correct? Typically they are smaller > in diameter then a wound field type. > > For my rear thruster I got the last of the three horsepower motors George > had. So my rear thruster in pretty much as the plans show. > > My side thrusters are even a bit larger then the plans since I found two > 3/4 HP brush type, 36 volt motors for very cheep in a surplus close out. I > built around them but similar to the plans. > > To get props for them I called Michigan Wheel and gave them my HP and RPMsand a description of my sub. They recommended the props and sold them to > me. > > When I was doing my wet testing, I put a amp meter in the motor power line > and found the side thrusters were fine but the rear thruster was drawing a > little to many amps. A little hand grinding to reduce the area of the prop > blades brought the amperage down to the max rating for the motor. I don't > know if that the best way, but it worked for me. > > Now if your thinking of building a true Kort nozzle your definitely going > to have to do some experimenting. Even the prop guards as called out on > the plans effect the prop efficiency and so also the motor load. > > You may be better off to find your motors then figure out what you can > attach to them, open prop, shrouded prop or Kort nozzle. Anything will > move the sub. I have a total of 4.5 HP and I don't know if I could control > any more power as the sub gets squirrelly when trying to travel fast. > When submerged, the side thruster are almost all that's needed. > > Dan H. > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Joe Perkel > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 16, 2013 2:08 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer > > Dan, > > What I was hoping to find was BLDC motors matching 36v 1800 - 3600 rpm, > 1/2 to 2 hp range. They don't seem to be out there. > > I have matched up brushed motors with those specs at both Baldor and > Leeson with the appropriate face plates. But, then we are back to the > same large / heavy motors at least there in the $500 range. > > You have the standard motors on Persistence, what are the size and pitch > of the respective props? > > I'm going to just have to suck it up and draw these up with new Kort > nozzles. > > Thanks! > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > ** > *From: *Dan H. ; ***To: *Personal Submersibles > General Discussion ; ***Subject: *Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer ***Sent: *Wed, Oct 16, 2013 1:48:13 PM * > * > ** > Those high voltage DC motors are designed for variable speed drives > where the power is first line voltage AC then converted to DC through a > motor controller for accurate motor speeds and torque. They aren't > practical for a battery powered system. > > For battery powered systems your probably better off to stick to the lower > voltage motors. With an inverter I guess you could convert the battery > power to high voltage AC then convert it to DC, but I'm pretty sure > you'd find it impractical with the extra equipment. > > It's hard to beat golf cart controllers for speed regulation and > there's tons of them out there. Battery powered floor scrubbers use > a variety of DC motors too. > > Dan H. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Joe Perkel > *To:* Psubbers Mailist > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 15, 2013 11:02 PM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer > ** > Since my Navy "A" school is some 30+ years ago, I need a little help in > trying to understand and match up something close to Georges motors. What I > dont understand is why is there such an array of DC motors in the 1 - 3 > hp range with wildly varing input voltages? > > If you notice those Tecnadyne thrusters have stupendous input voltages up > to 330vdc. I dont understand why and need a primer on DC systems for this > application. Can anyone point me to one? > > What I'm trying to do is to slim down the housing, get more > bollard thrust from the prop by adding a real kort nozzle, and use a mag > coupling instead of a shaft seal, all else remaining essentially the same. > > I want to slim down Georges T-Rex cans with similar power specs, but new > and improved components, keeping the items conducive to homebuilding, > like the housings and mountings, electrical penetrators, shaft seals if I > cant do mag couplings. > > What I've found so far > http://www.baldor.com/support/literature_load.asp?LitNumber=FL1210 > fractional hp and up to 3 hp @ 1800 rpm but, here again @ 320vdc !? > > Whats attractive about this one is the dimensions, 6.5" on the > mounting flange would fit quite nicely in the 6 nom SCH40 pipe which is > 6.625" > > But I dont know what im doing with regard to the input voltage / output > power / torque relationship and how to match this all up correctly. All > Ive confirmed so far is that Georges motors were TENV (totally enclosed > non-ventilated), 36vdc @ 1800 to 3600 rpm for 1/2 and 3 hp respectively. > > Joe > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > **_______________________________________________**Personal_Submersibles > mailing list**Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org** > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles****** > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 17:51:43 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 14:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer In-Reply-To: References: <1381946888.63772.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <001401cecaa5$8e213a80$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> <1381956576.34654.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381960303.27527.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Yeah Alec, I forgot about him. ? I actually saw Lake Diver on that tender once. I passed the rig in Key Largo, it was stopped at a marina on the Intracoastal as I went by on my boat. Or maybe the other way around, (foggy on the detail), but I remember the sub and the pontoon rig. ? Joe ________________________________ From: Alec Smyth To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Hi Joe, Actually I would say a K-250 might be inadequate, mainly due to the low freeboard and small 12 volt thrusters, but that you might find a 350 quite suitable. A 350 has way better freeboard, big battery pods instead of just three batteries, and about three times the top speed of a 250 (useful in a pinch given the currents you have there). Although there are lots of things that could be modernized, my impression is you would find the K-350 quite seaworthy for Southern Florida. I haven't actually used one there, just my 250, but 350s have operated plenty in open water. Including for instance Harold Maynard operating one in your neighborhood for decades. Best, Alec On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 4:49 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: Dan, >? >No expert either, the learning curve is steep here. I do know however?that they are harder to control and more costly than brushed, with the advantages they offer though that seems acceptable. >I noted that very "squrrillyness" and your comments on that one video, but?I was also encouraged by the capability of that motor and your side thrusters. The Islamorada convention demonstrates for the most part, my conditions here. The USS Spiegel Grove wreck and others like it for both day and night conditions, is the pinnacle of?what I would strive for as far as capability. A maximum 5 - 7 miles to tow a submersible is reasonable and brings within range more stuff than I could do in a lifetime. It just really can't be anything bigger that a Nekton boat. >? >Obviously the K-350 as drawn now is wholly inadequate but, it has really good "bones" to work with here. Think an Alvin or Shinkai type of exoframe covered with FRP panels, and you get the idea of what I'm contemplating. I have a thing for replicas, and this little bugger could be made pretty dam close and be quite functional. >? >I'm liking George's thruster design more and more as I dig further. Six interchangeable 1 HP spam cans in Alvin's configuration, just may do the job. I have to see where the weight and size fall to be sure. >? >Thanks Dan! >? >Joe >? >? >? >? > > >From: Dan H. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 3:26 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer >Joe, >? >I have to plead ignorance on the BLDC motor.? I'm guessing it's some kind of permanent magnet field DC motor... Correct??? Typically they are smaller in diameter then a wound field type.? >? >For my rear thruster I got the last of the three horsepower motors George had.? So my rear thruster in pretty much as the plans show.? >? >My side thrusters are even a bit larger then the plans since I found two 3/4 HP brush type, 36 volt motors for very cheep in a surplus close out.? I built around them but similar to the plans.? >? >To get props for them I called Michigan Wheel and?gave them my HP and RPMs and a description of my sub.? They recommended the props and?sold them to me.? >? >When I was doing my wet testing, I put a amp meter in the motor power line and found?the side thrusters were fine but the rear thruster?was drawing a little to many amps.? A little hand grinding to reduce the area of the prop blades?brought the amperage down to the max rating for the motor.? I don't know if that the best way, but it worked for me.? >? >Now if your thinking of building a true Kort nozzle your definitely going to have to do some experimenting.? Even the prop guards as called out on the plans effect the prop efficiency and so also the motor load.? >? >You may be better off to find your motors then figure out what you can attach to them, open prop, shrouded prop or Kort nozzle.? Anything will move the sub.? I have a total of 4.5 HP and I don't know if I could control any more power as the sub gets squirrelly when trying to travel fast.? When submerged, the side thruster are almost all that's needed. >? >Dan H. >----- Original Message ----- >>From: Joe Perkel >>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 2:08 PM >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer >> >> >>Dan, >> >>What I was hoping to find was BLDC motors matching 36v 1800 - 3600 rpm, 1/2 to 2 hp range. They don't seem to be out there. >> >>I have matched up brushed motors with those specs at both Baldor and Leeson with the appropriate face plates. But, then we are back to the same large / heavy motors at least there in the $500 range. >> >>You have the standard motors on Persistence, what are the size and pitch of the respective props? >> >>I'm going to just have to suck it up and draw these up with new Kort nozzles. >> >>Thanks! >> >>Joe >> >>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>From: Dan H. ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Sent: Wed, Oct 16, 2013 1:48:13 PM >>Those high voltage DC motors are designed for variable speed drives where the power is first line voltage AC then converted to DC through a motor controller for accurate motor speeds and torque.??They aren't practical for a battery powered system. >>? >>For battery powered systems your probably better off to stick to the lower voltage motors.? With an inverter I guess you could convert the battery power to high voltage AC then convert it to DC, but I'm pretty sure you'd find it impractical with the extra equipment.? >>? >>It's hard to beat golf cart controllers for speed regulation and there's tons of them out there.? Battery powered floor scrubbers use a variety of DC motors too. >>? >>Dan H. >>? >>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: Joe Perkel >>>To: Psubbers Mailist >>>Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 11:02 PM >>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer >>>Since my Navy "A" school is some 30+ years ago, I need a little help in trying to understand and?match up something close to Georges motors. What I dont understand is why is there such an array of DC motors in the 1 - 3 hp range with wildly varing input voltages? >>> >>>If you notice those Tecnadyne thrusters have stupendous input voltages up to 330vdc. I dont understand why and need a primer on DC systems for this application. Can anyone point me to one? >>> >>>What I'm trying to do is to slim down the housing, get more bollard?thrust from the prop by adding a real kort nozzle, and use a mag coupling instead of a shaft seal, all else remaining essentially the same. >>> >>>I want to slim down Georges T-Rex cans with similar power specs, but new and improved components, keeping the items conducive to homebuilding, like the housings and mountings, electrical penetrators, shaft seals if I cant do mag couplings. >>> >>>What I've found so far http://www.baldor.com/support/literature_load.asp?LitNumber=FL1210? fractional hp and up to 3 hp @ 1800 rpm but, here again @ 320vdc !? >>> >>>Whats attractive about this one is the dimensions, 6.5" on the mounting?flange would fit quite nicely in the 6 nom SCH40 pipe which is 6.625" >>> >>>But?I dont know what im doing with regard to the input voltage / output power / torque?relationship and how to match this all up correctly. ?All Ive confirmed so far is that Georges motors were TENV (totally enclosed non-ventilated), 36vdc @ 1800 to 3600 rpm for 1/2 and 3 hp respectively. >>> >>>Joe >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 18:01:53 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer In-Reply-To: <1381959141.51999.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1381946888.63772.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <001401cecaa5$8e213a80$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> <1381959141.51999.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381960913.32871.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hank, ? With what I want to do, It wouldn't be nearly as clean as Gamma. I would want all manner of crap hanging off of?the front. I'm in a great area for night diving, all manner of critters and colors come out at night.. ? As a kid, I fancied myself first a Marine Biologist, an Astronaut, or a pilot. ? I've done the pilot thing, so a mini research sub well?satisfies that nerdy science?kid still within me. ? Joe ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 5:32 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Hi Joe, If you build a Nekton style sub, you can just cruise out to the ?wreck with no tender.? I will be searching for lost gold in the spring with Gamma at 400 feet.? I have to cross about a mile of lake to get to the search area.? I plan to do that at depth.? ? This style of sub has a great range due to the shape.? The sub has only 2hp with a kurtis controller, ?so simple and it cruises at 3.5 knots at 70 amps.? I do love your Alvin jr though.?? I also am a huge fan of the K style thruster, indestructible heavy wound motor. Hank? ________________________________ From: Dan H. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 1:26:03 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Joe, ? I have to plead ignorance on the BLDC motor.? I'm guessing it's some kind of permanent magnet field DC motor... Correct??? Typically they are smaller in diameter then a wound field type.? ? For my rear thruster I got the last of the three horsepower motors George had.? So my rear thruster in pretty much as the plans show.? ? My side thrusters are even a bit larger then the plans since I found two 3/4 HP brush type, 36 volt motors for very cheep in a surplus close out.? I built around them but similar to the plans.? ? To get props for them I called Michigan Wheel and?gave them my HP and RPMs and a description of my sub.? They recommended the props and?sold them to me.? ? When I was doing my wet testing, I put a amp meter in the motor power line and found?the side thrusters were fine but the rear thruster?was drawing a little to many amps.? A little hand grinding to reduce the area of the prop blades?brought the amperage down to the max rating for the motor.? I don't know if that the best way, but it worked for me.? ? Now if your thinking of building a true Kort nozzle your definitely going to have to do some experimenting.? Even the prop guards as called out on the plans effect the prop efficiency and so also the motor load.? ? You may be better off to find your motors then figure out what you can attach to them, open prop, shrouded prop or Kort nozzle.? Anything will move the sub.? I have a total of 4.5 HP and I don't know if I could control any more power as the sub gets squirrelly when trying to travel fast.? When submerged, the side thruster are almost all that's needed. ? Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- >From: Joe Perkel >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 2:08 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer > > >Dan, > >What I was hoping to find was BLDC motors matching 36v 1800 - 3600 rpm, 1/2 to 2 hp range. They don't seem to be out there. > >I have matched up brushed motors with those specs at both Baldor and Leeson with the appropriate face plates. But, then we are back to the same large / heavy motors at least there in the $500 range. > >You have the standard motors on Persistence, what are the size and pitch of the respective props? > >I'm going to just have to suck it up and draw these up with new Kort nozzles. > >Thanks! > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > >________________________________ >From: Dan H. ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Sent: Wed, Oct 16, 2013 1:48:13 PM >Those high voltage DC motors are designed for variable speed drives where the power is first line voltage AC then converted to DC through a motor controller for accurate motor speeds and torque.??They aren't practical for a battery powered system. >? >For battery powered systems your probably better off to stick to the lower voltage motors.? With an inverter I guess you could convert the battery power to high voltage AC then convert it to DC, but I'm pretty sure you'd find it impractical with the extra equipment.? >? >It's hard to beat golf cart controllers for speed regulation and there's tons of them out there.? Battery powered floor scrubbers use a variety of DC motors too. >? >Dan H. >? >----- Original Message ----- >>From: Joe Perkel >>To: Psubbers Mailist >>Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 11:02 PM >>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer >>Since my Navy "A" school is some 30+ years ago, I need a little help in trying to understand and?match up something close to Georges motors. What I dont understand is why is there such an array of DC motors in the 1 - 3 hp range with wildly varing input voltages? >> >>If you notice those Tecnadyne thrusters have stupendous input voltages up to 330vdc. I dont understand why and need a primer on DC systems for this application. Can anyone point me to one? >> >>What I'm trying to do is to slim down the housing, get more bollard?thrust from the prop by adding a real kort nozzle, and use a mag coupling instead of a shaft seal, all else remaining essentially the same. >> >>I want to slim down Georges T-Rex cans with similar power specs, but new and improved components, keeping the items conducive to homebuilding, like the housings and mountings, electrical penetrators, shaft seals if I cant do mag couplings. >> >>What I've found so far http://www.baldor.com/support/literature_load.asp?LitNumber=FL1210? fractional hp and up to 3 hp @ 1800 rpm but, here again @ 320vdc !? >> >>Whats attractive about this one is the dimensions, 6.5" on the mounting?flange would fit quite nicely in the 6 nom SCH40 pipe which is 6.625" >> >>But?I dont know what im doing with regard to the input voltage / output power / torque?relationship and how to match this all up correctly. ?All Ive confirmed so far is that Georges motors were TENV (totally enclosed non-ventilated), 36vdc @ 1800 to 3600 rpm for 1/2 and 3 hp respectively. >> >>Joe >> >> >> >>________________________________ >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >________________________________ >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 16 18:21:51 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:21:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer In-Reply-To: <1381960913.32871.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381946888.63772.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <001401cecaa5$8e213a80$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> <1381959141.51999.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1381960913.32871.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381962111.45536.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, When I started working on Gamma, I had to do some very major repairs to the ballast tanks.?? I came so close to converting it into your Alvin jr.? My wife talked me out of it and I am glad because I want a totally independent sub.? I need range and that comes from being steam lined.???We all want something a bit different.? I also like the look of all the crap hanging off the sub.? :-) Hank From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 4:01:53 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Hank, ? With what I want to do, It wouldn't be nearly as clean as Gamma. I would want all manner of crap hanging off of?the front. I'm in a great area for night diving, all manner of critters and colors come out at night.. ? As a kid, I fancied myself first a Marine Biologist, an Astronaut, or a pilot. ? I've done the pilot thing, so a mini research sub well?satisfies that nerdy science?kid still within me. ? Joe From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 5:32 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Hi Joe, If you build a Nekton style sub, you can just cruise out to the ?wreck with no tender.? I will be searching for lost gold in the spring with Gamma at 400 feet.? I have to cross about a mile of lake to get to the search area.? I plan to do that at depth.? ? This style of sub has a great range due to the shape.? The sub has only 2hp with a kurtis controller, ?so simple and it cruises at 3.5 knots at 70 amps.? I do love your Alvin jr though.?? I also am a huge fan of the K style thruster, indestructible heavy wound motor. Hank? From: Dan H. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 1:26:03 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Joe, ? I have to plead ignorance on the BLDC motor.? I'm guessing it's some kind of permanent magnet field DC motor... Correct??? Typically they are smaller in diameter then a wound field type.? ? For my rear thruster I got the last of the three horsepower motors George had.? So my rear thruster in pretty much as the plans show.? ? My side thrusters are even a bit larger then the plans since I found two 3/4 HP brush type, 36 volt motors for very cheep in a surplus close out.? I built around them but similar to the plans.? ? To get props for them I called Michigan Wheel and?gave them my HP and RPMs and a description of my sub.? They recommended the props and?sold them to me.? ? When I was doing my wet testing, I put a amp meter in the motor power line and found?the side thrusters were fine but the rear thruster?was drawing a little to many amps.? A little hand grinding to reduce the area of the prop blades?brought the amperage down to the max rating for the motor.? I don't know if that the best way, but it worked for me.? ? Now if your thinking of building a true Kort nozzle your definitely going to have to do some experimenting.? Even the prop guards as called out on the plans effect the prop efficiency and so also the motor load.? ? You may be better off to find your motors then figure out what you can attach to them, open prop, shrouded prop or Kort nozzle.? Anything will move the sub.? I have a total of 4.5 HP and I don't know if I could control any more power as the sub gets squirrelly when trying to travel fast.? When submerged, the side thruster are almost all that's needed. ? Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- >From: Joe Perkel >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 2:08 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer > > >Dan, > >What I was hoping to find was BLDC motors matching 36v 1800 - 3600 rpm, 1/2 to 2 hp range. They don't seem to be out there. > >I have matched up brushed motors with those specs at both Baldor and Leeson with the appropriate face plates. But, then we are back to the same large / heavy motors at least there in the $500 range. > >You have the standard motors on Persistence, what are the size and pitch of the respective props? > >I'm going to just have to suck it up and draw these up with new Kort nozzles. > >Thanks! > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >From: Dan H. ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Sent: Wed, Oct 16, 2013 1:48:13 PM >Those high voltage DC motors are designed for variable speed drives where the power is first line voltage AC then converted to DC through a motor controller for accurate motor speeds and torque.??They aren't practical for a battery powered system. >? >For battery powered systems your probably better off to stick to the lower voltage motors.? With an inverter I guess you could convert the battery power to high voltage AC then convert it to DC, but I'm pretty sure you'd find it impractical with the extra equipment.? >? >It's hard to beat golf cart controllers for speed regulation and there's tons of them out there.? Battery powered floor scrubbers use a variety of DC motors too. >? >Dan H. >? >----- Original Message ----- >>From: Joe Perkel >>To: Psubbers Mailist >>Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 11:02 PM >>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer >>Since my Navy "A" school is some 30+ years ago, I need a little help in trying to understand and?match up something close to Georges motors. What I dont understand is why is there such an array of DC motors in the 1 - 3 hp range with wildly varing input voltages? >> >>If you notice those Tecnadyne thrusters have stupendous input voltages up to 330vdc. I dont understand why and need a primer on DC systems for this application. Can anyone point me to one? >> >>What I'm trying to do is to slim down the housing, get more bollard?thrust from the prop by adding a real kort nozzle, and use a mag coupling instead of a shaft seal, all else remaining essentially the same. >> >>I want to slim down Georges T-Rex cans with similar power specs, but new and improved components, keeping the items conducive to homebuilding, like the housings and mountings, electrical penetrators, shaft seals if I cant do mag couplings. >> >>What I've found so far http://www.baldor.com/support/literature_load.asp?LitNumber=FL1210? fractional hp and up to 3 hp @ 1800 rpm but, here again @ 320vdc !? >> >>Whats attractive about this one is the dimensions, 6.5" on the mounting?flange would fit quite nicely in the 6 nom SCH40 pipe which is 6.625" >> >>But?I dont know what im doing with regard to the input voltage / output power / torque?relationship and how to match this all up correctly. ?All Ive confirmed so far is that Georges motors were TENV (totally enclosed non-ventilated), 36vdc @ 1800 to 3600 rpm for 1/2 and 3 hp respectively. >> >>Joe >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 18:50:45 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer In-Reply-To: <1381962111.45536.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381963845.92966.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Gee Hank, that's really too bad. I would have really liked to have seen that!

I'm really torn about 42" ID. Everything else gets on that same escalator. My timing is such that I can't possibly start on the hull until I'm 60 - 62 at best, I'm 53 now. However, I'm rightfully concerned that 36" ID could become untenable for later years.

Best I can do now is get my CAD files ready for a lightning fast build.

What gold are you after? A lost "forty niner"?


Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 16 20:18:08 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 17:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer In-Reply-To: <1381963845.92966.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1381962111.45536.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1381963845.92966.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381969088.32947.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, I am after the lost gold boulder of Kootenay Lake BC ( you can google that) ?? It is just a legend, but what good is a sub if your not looking for something.? Here in BC the lakes are pretty boring, so the sunken paddle wheelers and steam engines are fun to hunt down.? And maybe there is some truth to the lost gold story.? I live 3hrs away and there is also a sunken paddle steamer in beautiful condition in the same area. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 4:50:45 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Gee Hank, that's really too bad. I would have really liked to have seen that! I'm really torn about 42" ID. Everything else gets on that same escalator. My timing is such that I can't possibly start on the hull until I'm 60 - 62 at best, I'm 53 now. However, I'm rightfully concerned that 36" ID could become untenable for later years. Best I can do now is get my CAD files ready for a lightning fast build. What gold are you after? A lost "forty niner"? Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Sent: Wed, Oct 16, 2013 10:21:51 PM Joe, When I started working on Gamma, I had to do some very major repairs to the ballast tanks.?? I came so close to converting it into your Alvin jr.? My wife talked me out of it and I am glad because I want a totally independent sub.? I need range and that comes from being steam lined.???We all want something a bit different.? I also like the look of all the crap hanging off the sub.? :-) Hank From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 4:01:53 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Hank, ? With what I want to do, It wouldn't be nearly as clean as Gamma. I would want all manner of crap hanging off of?the front. I'm in a great area for night diving, all manner of critters and colors come out at night.. ? As a kid, I fancied myself first a Marine Biologist, an Astronaut, or a pilot. ? I've done the pilot thing, so a mini research sub well?satisfies that nerdy science?kid still within me. ? Joe From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 5:32 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Hi Joe, If you build a Nekton style sub, you can just cruise out to the ?wreck with no tender.? I will be searching for lost gold in the spring with Gamma at 400 feet.? I have to cross about a mile of lake to get to the search area.? I plan to do that at depth.? ? This style of sub has a great range due to the shape.? The sub has only 2hp with a kurtis controller, ?so simple and it cruises at 3.5 knots at 70 amps.? I do love your Alvin jr though.?? I also am a huge fan of the K style thruster, indestructible heavy wound motor. Hank? From: Dan H. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 1:26:03 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Joe, ? I have to plead ignorance on the BLDC motor.? I'm guessing it's some kind of permanent magnet field DC motor... Correct??? Typically they are smaller in diameter then a wound field type.? ? For my rear thruster I got the last of the three horsepower motors George had.? So my rear thruster in pretty much as the plans show.? ? My side thrusters are even a bit larger then the plans since I found two 3/4 HP brush type, 36 volt motors for very cheep in a surplus close out.? I built around them but similar to the plans.? ? To get props for them I called Michigan Wheel and?gave them my HP and RPMs and a description of my sub.? They recommended the props and?sold them to me.? ? When I was doing my wet testing, I put a amp meter in the motor power line and found?the side thrusters were fine but the rear thruster?was drawing a little to many amps.? A little hand grinding to reduce the area of the prop blades?brought the amperage down to the max rating for the motor.? I don't know if that the best way, but it worked for me.? ? Now if your thinking of building a true Kort nozzle your definitely going to have to do some experimenting.? Even the prop guards as called out on the plans effect the prop efficiency and so also the motor load.? ? You may be better off to find your motors then figure out what you can attach to them, open prop, shrouded prop or Kort nozzle.? Anything will move the sub.? I have a total of 4.5 HP and I don't know if I could control any more power as the sub gets squirrelly when trying to travel fast.? When submerged, the side thruster are almost all that's needed. ? Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- >From: Joe Perkel >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 2:08 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer >Dan, > >What I was hoping to find was BLDC motors matching 36v 1800 - 3600 rpm, 1/2 to 2 hp range. They don't seem to be out there. > >I have matched up brushed motors with those specs at both Baldor and Leeson with the appropriate face plates. But, then we are back to the same large / heavy motors at least there in the $500 range. > >You have the standard motors on Persistence, what are the size and pitch of the respective props? > >I'm going to just have to suck it up and draw these up with new Kort nozzles. > >Thanks! > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >From: Dan H. ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer Sent: Wed, Oct 16, 2013 1:48:13 PM >Those high voltage DC motors are designed for variable speed drives where the power is first line voltage AC then converted to DC through a motor controller for accurate motor speeds and torque.??They aren't practical for a battery powered system. >? >For battery powered systems your probably better off to stick to the lower voltage motors.? With an inverter I guess you could convert the battery power to high voltage AC then convert it to DC, but I'm pretty sure you'd find it impractical with the extra equipment.? >? >It's hard to beat golf cart controllers for speed regulation and there's tons of them out there.? Battery powered floor scrubbers use a variety of DC motors too. >? >Dan H. >? >----- Original Message ----- >>From: Joe Perkel >>To: Psubbers Mailist >>Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 11:02 PM >>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer >>Since my Navy "A" school is some 30+ years ago, I need a little help in trying to understand and?match up something close to Georges motors. What I dont understand is why is there such an array of DC motors in the 1 - 3 hp range with wildly varing input voltages? >> >>If you notice those Tecnadyne thrusters have stupendous input voltages up to 330vdc. I dont understand why and need a primer on DC systems for this application. Can anyone point me to one? >> >>What I'm trying to do is to slim down the housing, get more bollard?thrust from the prop by adding a real kort nozzle, and use a mag coupling instead of a shaft seal, all else remaining essentially the same. >> >>I want to slim down Georges T-Rex cans with similar power specs, but new and improved components, keeping the items conducive to homebuilding, like the housings and mountings, electrical penetrators, shaft seals if I cant do mag couplings. >> >>What I've found so far http://www.baldor.com/support/literature_load.asp?LitNumber=FL1210? fractional hp and up to 3 hp @ 1800 rpm but, here again @ 320vdc !? >> >>Whats attractive about this one is the dimensions, 6.5" on the mounting?flange would fit quite nicely in the 6 nom SCH40 pipe which is 6.625" >> >>But?I dont know what im doing with regard to the input voltage / output power / torque?relationship and how to match this all up correctly. ?All Ive confirmed so far is that Georges motors were TENV (totally enclosed non-ventilated), 36vdc @ 1800 to 3600 rpm for 1/2 and 3 hp respectively. >> >>Joe >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Thu Oct 17 02:58:23 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 23:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer In-Reply-To: <1381969088.32947.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1381993103.29945.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hank,

Beautiful pristine area you have there! Absolutely breathtaking !

I'll bet there's more than a few perfectly preserved wrecks in that cold fresh water.

Interesting story about the boulder.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Fri Oct 18 11:13:58 2013 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 08:13:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1382109238.21314.YahooMailBasic@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Added a new video and group photo. See www.psubs.org main page. From josephperkel at yahoo.com Fri Oct 18 21:03:56 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 18:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <1382109238.21314.YahooMailBasic@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382144636.50122.YahooMailIosMobile@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Nice!

That's two in florida I've missed.

Just you watch, it's the one in Nome Ak, that ill eventually make it to.

The kids were excited it shows, that was an outstanding thing to do.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Sat Oct 19 17:10:56 2013 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 17:10:56 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Successful Convention! Message-ID: Greetings All, Douglas Suhr here. I have been out of the loop the last couple of weeks catching up on a ton of stuff that I missed while out of town at the convention and I'm just now catching up on emails, etc. Anyway, I just wanted to take a moment to thank everyone who participated in making this most recent convention the awesome and successful experience that it was, especially for dad and me! I'm glad that my family was able to help facilitate some of the submersible operations, but it definitely took more than just us to make the convention what it was. The Florida Keys make an awesome dive locale, but just getting down there can be quite a feat, especially with a vessel in tow, so thank you Alec (and Alan), Cliff (and Rick) for your willingness to make the journey with so much "extra baggage!" To the support divers, Scott, Katy, Dave and Wy, your efforts were certainly appreciated just as much as those who brought their subs for your (enthusiastic) willingness to jump into the water at a moments notice. And to everyone else, thank you so much. The technical presentations were an excellent opportunity to learn more about everyone's projects as well as submersibles (and trailers!) in general. Try as you might, I honestly doubt you could find one person who would say they learned nothing at this year's convention. I think this convention proved to be a success in every sense of the word. Dad and I learned so much from chatting with all you builders, thinkers, tinkerers, and dreamers, It definitely provided us with much needed inspiration to continue with our own project! Thanks again to all you folks, your efforts made the convention well worth attending. ~ Douglas S. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Sat Oct 19 17:18:49 2013 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 17:18:49 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 2013 Convention Review In-Reply-To: <001201cec370$40f93370$c2eb9a50$@indy.rr.com> References: <001201cec370$40f93370$c2eb9a50$@indy.rr.com> Message-ID: I couldn't agree more Steve, the opportunity to socialize with fellow members / builders is a hard thing to put a value on. Glad I had the chance to meet you and some other members down in the keys. I look forward to seeing everyone again at future conventions, as well as meeting other members that couldn't attend this year's convention. ~ Douglas S. On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 11:16 AM, Steve McQueen wrote: > All, just a note that the convention this year was a good experience for > me and worth the expense/travel. We missed all of those who could not > attend. **** > > ** ** > > I encourage everyone to try and attend future conferences as getting dive > time, being around/observing dive prep/operations and meeting new members > (networking) is really priceless even if your project is still on paper.** > ** > > ** ** > > Thanks to all who made my experience so rewarding.**** > > ** ** > > Steve**** > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Sat Oct 19 17:29:40 2013 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 17:29:40 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] anyone heard this story? In-Reply-To: <1381527305.11911.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1381527305.11911.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Scott, thanks for bringing this to our attention once again. Back over the summer when this story was originally posted on the list, I tried to contact Justin via email but received no response. Like you, I extended an invitation to him for our group in hopes that he would perhaps join the organization. If you hear back from him, please let us know! ~ Douglas S. On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 5:35 PM, hank pronk wrote: > Scott, > Great idea, I am glad you reached out to him. I watched a video of him > testing it and when things were going wrong I was pretty freaked out. He > stayed very calm and I was very impressed with that. I think the kid is > great and would make a nice addition to psubs. > Hank > > *From:* swaters > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Friday, October 11, 2013 3:26:01 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] anyone heard this story? > > Defenetly a great acomplishment. I e-mailed him and asked him to join > psubs. > The part that scares me the most is the dome made from a old skylight. A > catastrosphic failure even at 30 feet can kill. Maybe he will join and we > can help him. > Thanks > > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > hank pronk wrote: > I give the kid credit, sure it's not what I would build but he has > already been deeper than most of the subs here on psubs. Now that includes > the subs on paper of coarse. Even the million dollar subs. And he is what > 18 or so. > > Hank > > *From:* "swaters at waters-ks.com" > *To:* psubs > *Sent:* Friday, October 11, 2013 2:38:55 PM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] anyone heard this story? > > Has anyone heard this story on CNN? Looks like a death trap to me. > > > http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/29/tech/innovation/teenager-justin-beckerman-builds-working-submarine/index.html > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Sat Oct 19 17:50:21 2013 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 17:50:21 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Alan, thank you much for your kind words regarding our hospitality. We (my mom and dad and I) are so pleased that the convention turned out to be such a success. And I attribute a great deal of that success to the fact that although difficult, members like you made such an effort to attend! David and Wy travelled all the way across the country (!), but exactly how many miles did you travel? As both you and Steve McQueen suggest, the camaraderie and socializing that takes place at these conventions is a major part of what makes them worth attending. All of the ideas and projects shared in those precious few days really culminate to make an invaluable experience for any submersible builder. Thanks for attending this year and helping to make the convention as great as it was! ~ Douglas S. On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 12:38 AM, Alan wrote: > Hi Psubbers, > Many thanks to everyone that made the conference such a great experience. > Alec who I went down on the Auto train with from Washington ( & snoopy) & > who transported > me around quite a bit. Scott, Katy & Jon for the planning & organisation, > & our interesting speakers. Doug & his family who showed amazing > hospitality. One anonymous Psubber said if it were my wife she would have > kicked us out after a day. > A number of us arrived a couple of days early & camped at their holiday > home. What an ideal submarine base. All those cranes for launching, a 30 ft > deep canal to play in, garaging for working on the subs, boats to tow us > out to sea, a great cook who served us lobster for lunch etc.etc. Alec & I > felt we could have gone home feeling fulfilled, before the conference had > started. > It was great to catch up with people I had got to know on line for the > last 4 or 5 years. > I endorse what someone said earlier about how important it is to attend if > you are going to build > or in the process. Seeing the subs, riding in them & being involved in the > towing was such a good learning experience. There were a few technical > glitches that were a good insight at the expense of the sub owners. Emails > can take me ages so it was great to yack & get through a lot of stuff in a > short time. I've come back with some pretty significant ideas that I'll > look in to. > If you are going to build a sub that may cost $20,000 or upward, the > investment in travelling to conference to gain some experience & to net > work, is money well spent. > It didn't end at conference for me as I was treated to a tour round San > Francisco, & a meal, by David & Wy when there. Very beautiful city. ( when > the fog rolls away) > Had a great time, thanks everyone. > Alan > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Sat Oct 19 18:02:14 2013 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 18:02:14 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Emergency Buoy In-Reply-To: References: <20FD0002-8E86-47CE-850D-3520A8859698@yahoo.com> <1381869534.66347.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alan, thanks for mentioning this. I actually noticed it myself that evening after Snoopy was brought back to our place, but you guys were already gone so I didn't get a chance to mention it to anyone. Now I realize what had happened, but at first when I saw it, I didn't get how the spool could have become so tangled (without ever being released). I'm so glad that both Alec and Steve had the opportunity to perform an open water dive out near Pickles. As Alec suggests, lots of little lessons were learned. And yes, one may suggest that they are now a tad closer together at heart :) ~ Douglas S. On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 7:05 PM, Vance Bradley wrote: > They are MUCH better friends now. > Vance > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 15, 2013, at 4:38 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > Im still trying to wrap my head around two men sealed into a 36" ID steel > drum on a sunny day in *Florida!* > > Joe > > *From:* Alan > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 15, 2013 1:29 PM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Emergency Buoy > > I don't think Alec will mind me mentioning this. > After Alec & Steve's epic dive, which preceded with them being towed for > hours in Snoopy; > It was discovered that the cord on the emergency release buoy was tangled > & wouldn't have > been operational if they had wanted to deploy it. > It was probably all the wave motion through towing, hitting the drum & > causing it to spool > & birds nest. > They dived without opening the hatch, so weren't aware of the problem. > I am not sure of the release mechanism that Alec uses, but this is another > thing that needs > to be thought about in design & operation. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sat Oct 19 18:04:00 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 18:04:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D09B2E3FCA9B09-1C18-1A92C@webmail-m155.sysops.aol.com> Personally, Doug, I think we should consider a mini-conference at Islamorada...monthly!!! Vance -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Suhr To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sat, Oct 19, 2013 5:53 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conference Alan, thank you much for your kind words regarding our hospitality. We (my mom and dad and I) are so pleased that the convention turned out to be such a success. And I attribute a great deal of that success to the fact that although difficult, members like you made such an effort to attend! David and Wy travelled all the way across the country (!), but exactly how many miles did you travel? As both you and Steve McQueen suggest, the camaraderie and socializing that takes place at these conventions is a major part of what makes them worth attending. All of the ideas and projects shared in those precious few days really culminate to make an invaluable experience for any submersible builder. Thanks for attending this year and helping to make the convention as great as it was! ~ Douglas S. On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 12:38 AM, Alan wrote: Hi Psubbers, Many thanks to everyone that made the conference such a great experience. Alec who I went down on the Auto train with from Washington ( & snoopy) & who transported me around quite a bit. Scott, Katy & Jon for the planning & organisation, & our interesting speakers. Doug & his family who showed amazing hospitality. One anonymous Psubber said if it were my wife she would have kicked us out after a day. A number of us arrived a couple of days early & camped at their holiday home. What an ideal submarine base. All those cranes for launching, a 30 ft deep canal to play in, garaging for working on the subs, boats to tow us out to sea, a great cook who served us lobster for lunch etc.etc. Alec & I felt we could have gone home feeling fulfilled, before the conference had started. It was great to catch up with people I had got to know on line for the last 4 or 5 years. I endorse what someone said earlier about how important it is to attend if you are going to build or in the process. Seeing the subs, riding in them & being involved in the towing was such a good learning experience. There were a few technical glitches that were a good insight at the expense of the sub owners. Emails can take me ages so it was great to yack & get through a lot of stuff in a short time. I've come back with some pretty significant ideas that I'll look in to. If you are going to build a sub that may cost $20,000 or upward, the investment in travelling to conference to gain some experience & to net work, is money well spent. It didn't end at conference for me as I was treated to a tour round San Francisco, & a meal, by David & Wy when there. Very beautiful city. ( when the fog rolls away) Had a great time, thanks everyone. Alan Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Sat Oct 19 18:07:17 2013 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 18:07:17 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef In-Reply-To: <1382144636.50122.YahooMailIosMobile@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382109238.21314.YahooMailBasic@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382144636.50122.YahooMailIosMobile@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alec, very informative dive report from the pickles dive. That will definitely be one for the history books. ~ Douglas S. On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Nice! > > That's two in florida I've missed. > > Just you watch, it's the one in Nome Ak, that ill eventually make it to. > > The kids were excited it shows, that was an outstanding thing to do. > > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > ------------------------------ > * From: * Jon Wallace ; > * To: * Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; > * Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive report - Pickles Reef > * Sent: * Fri, Oct 18, 2013 3:13:58 PM > > > Added a new video and group photo. See www.psubs.org main page. > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Sat Oct 19 18:10:02 2013 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 18:10:02 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conference In-Reply-To: <8D09B2E3FCA9B09-1C18-1A92C@webmail-m155.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D09B2E3FCA9B09-1C18-1A92C@webmail-m155.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Vance, I will gladly second that motion! On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 6:04 PM, wrote: > Personally, Doug, I think we should consider a mini-conference at > Islamorada...monthly!!! > Vance > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Suhr > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Sat, Oct 19, 2013 5:53 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conference > > Alan, thank you much for your kind words regarding our hospitality. We > (my mom and dad and I) are so pleased that the convention turned out to be > such a success. And I attribute a great deal of that success to the fact > that although difficult, members like you made such an effort to attend! > David and Wy travelled all the way across the country (!), but exactly how > many miles did you travel? > > As both you and Steve McQueen suggest, the camaraderie and socializing that > takes place at these conventions is a major part of what makes them worth > attending. All of the ideas and projects shared in those precious few days > really culminate to make an invaluable experience for any submersible > builder. Thanks for attending this year and helping to make the convention > as great as it was! ~ Douglas S. > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 12:38 AM, Alan wrote: > >> Hi Psubbers, >> Many thanks to everyone that made the conference such a great experience. >> Alec who I went down on the Auto train with from Washington ( & snoopy) & >> who transported >> me around quite a bit. Scott, Katy & Jon for the planning & organisation, >> & our interesting speakers. Doug & his family who showed amazing >> hospitality. One anonymous Psubber said if it were my wife she would have >> kicked us out after a day. >> A number of us arrived a couple of days early & camped at their holiday >> home. What an ideal submarine base. All those cranes for launching, a 30 ft >> deep canal to play in, garaging for working on the subs, boats to tow us >> out to sea, a great cook who served us lobster for lunch etc.etc. Alec & I >> felt we could have gone home feeling fulfilled, before the conference had >> started. >> It was great to catch up with people I had got to know on line for the >> last 4 or 5 years. >> I endorse what someone said earlier about how important it is to attend >> if you are going to build >> or in the process. Seeing the subs, riding in them & being involved in >> the towing was such a good learning experience. There were a few technical >> glitches that were a good insight at the expense of the sub owners. Emails >> can take me ages so it was great to yack & get through a lot of stuff in a >> short time. I've come back with some pretty significant ideas that I'll >> look in to. >> If you are going to build a sub that may cost $20,000 or upward, the >> investment in travelling to conference to gain some experience & to net >> work, is money well spent. >> It didn't end at conference for me as I was treated to a tour round San >> Francisco, & a meal, by David & Wy when there. Very beautiful city. ( when >> the fog rolls away) >> Had a great time, thanks everyone. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sat Oct 19 21:14:20 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 18:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1382231660.49725.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Thanks Douglas, I have been showing my holiday photos to people back in N.Z. & describing what an ideal set up it was at your holiday home & how spoilt we were. Went for a dive in a tourist sub in Hawaii & I think even your Mum could have coped with that Alan From: Douglas Suhr To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conference Alan, thank you much for your kind words regarding our hospitality. We (my mom and dad and I) are so pleased that the convention turned out to be such a success. And I attribute a great deal of that success to the fact that although difficult, members like you made such an effort to attend! David and Wy travelled all the way across the country (!), but exactly how many miles did you travel?? As both you and Steve McQueen suggest, the?camaraderie and socializing?that takes place at these conventions is a major part of what makes them worth attending. All of the ideas and projects shared in those precious few days really culminate to make an invaluable experience for any submersible builder. Thanks for attending this year and helping to make the convention as great as it was! ~ Douglas S. ? ? ? On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 12:38 AM, Alan wrote: Hi Psubbers, >Many thanks to everyone that made the conference such a great experience. >Alec who I went down on the Auto train with from Washington ( & snoopy) & who transported >me around quite a bit. Scott, Katy & Jon for the planning & organisation, & our interesting speakers. Doug & his family who showed amazing hospitality. One anonymous Psubber said if it were my wife she would have kicked us out after a day. >A number of us arrived a couple of days early & camped at their holiday home. What an ideal submarine base. All those cranes for launching, a 30 ft deep canal to play in, garaging for working on the subs, boats to tow us out to sea, a great cook who served us lobster for lunch etc.etc. Alec & I felt we could have gone home feeling fulfilled, before the conference had started. >It was great to catch up with people I had got to know on line for the last 4 or 5 years. >I endorse what someone said earlier about how important it is to attend if you are going to build >or in the process. Seeing the subs, riding in them & being involved in the towing was such a good learning experience. There were a few technical glitches that were a good insight at the expense of the sub owners. Emails can take me ages so it was great to yack & get through a lot of stuff in a short time. I've come back with some pretty significant ideas that I'll look in to. >If you are going to build a sub that may cost $20,000 or upward, the investment in travelling to conference to gain some experience & to net work, is money well spent. >It didn't end at conference for me as I was treated to a tour round San Francisco, & a meal, by David & Wy when there. Very beautiful city. ( when the fog rolls away) >Had a great time, thanks everyone. >Alan > > > > > > > >Sent from my iPad >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Sat Oct 19 21:32:41 2013 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2013 21:32:41 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conference In-Reply-To: <1382231660.49725.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382231660.49725.YahooMailNeo@web141204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Oh Alan one of these days we're going to have to get her down in something! ~ Douglas S. On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 9:14 PM, Alan James wrote: > Thanks Douglas, > I have been showing my holiday photos to people back in N.Z. & describing > what an ideal > set up it was at your holiday home & how spoilt we were. > Went for a dive in a tourist sub in Hawaii & I think even your Mum could > have coped with that[image: *:) happy] > Alan > > > *From:* Douglas Suhr > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Sunday, October 20, 2013 10:50 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Conference > > Alan, thank you much for your kind words regarding our hospitality. We (my > mom and dad and I) are so pleased that the convention turned out to be such > a success. And I attribute a great deal of that success to the fact that > although difficult, members like you made such an effort to attend! David > and Wy travelled all the way across the country (!), but exactly how many > miles did you travel? > > As both you and Steve McQueen suggest, the camaraderie and socializing that > takes place at these conventions is a major part of what makes them worth > attending. All of the ideas and projects shared in those precious few days > really culminate to make an invaluable experience for any submersible > builder. Thanks for attending this year and helping to make the convention > as great as it was! ~ Douglas S. > > > On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 12:38 AM, Alan wrote: > > Hi Psubbers, > Many thanks to everyone that made the conference such a great experience. > Alec who I went down on the Auto train with from Washington ( & snoopy) & > who transported > me around quite a bit. Scott, Katy & Jon for the planning & organisation, > & our interesting speakers. Doug & his family who showed amazing > hospitality. One anonymous Psubber said if it were my wife she would have > kicked us out after a day. > A number of us arrived a couple of days early & camped at their holiday > home. What an ideal submarine base. All those cranes for launching, a 30 ft > deep canal to play in, garaging for working on the subs, boats to tow us > out to sea, a great cook who served us lobster for lunch etc.etc. Alec & I > felt we could have gone home feeling fulfilled, before the conference had > started. > It was great to catch up with people I had got to know on line for the > last 4 or 5 years. > I endorse what someone said earlier about how important it is to attend if > you are going to build > or in the process. Seeing the subs, riding in them & being involved in the > towing was such a good learning experience. There were a few technical > glitches that were a good insight at the expense of the sub owners. Emails > can take me ages so it was great to yack & get through a lot of stuff in a > short time. I've come back with some pretty significant ideas that I'll > look in to. > If you are going to build a sub that may cost $20,000 or upward, the > investment in travelling to conference to gain some experience & to net > work, is money well spent. > It didn't end at conference for me as I was treated to a tour round San > Francisco, & a meal, by David & Wy when there. Very beautiful city. ( when > the fog rolls away) > Had a great time, thanks everyone. > Alan > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Tue Oct 22 05:06:49 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 10:06:49 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch Message-ID: Hi All, I got my boat in the water at the weekend for the first time. Put the pictures up here. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/operations.htm I didnt get any leaks at all, so i was super happy. I wasnt really expecting to try and dive and would have been happy with just no leaks and a float test, but everything worked fine, so i gave it a go. Unfortunately i didnt have enough lead. I added 90KG (198lb) of lead, but it still wouldnt go down. What i didnt mention on the website was that i was forced to stop testing because the harbour master came along to say that they had had an anonymous phone call from some bloody do-gooder who pointed out that we were using the comercial area of the harbour and didnt have a proper comercial dive team, which is officially a legal requirement. So even though i had full permission from the harbour, i was forced to stop on a technicality. They think it was some missery that has the hump on with harbour and just wanted to be awkward. Shame because I was about to load a pile of anchor chain into the boat to get me more weight. The boat did seem to be very light at the back and i kept squirting air into the forward tank to level it out. Thinking about it, i suspect that the forward tank was settling into the correct position and it was the aft tank that was riding high. Just need to get some weight at the back. I had a slight list to port as well which i've no idea where that came from. Again i will trim that up. Anyway, i was really pleased with how it went on my first day. Im meeting my divers tonight who took a load of underwater pics apparently, so i will see how they look later. Might put some on the web if they are any good. Kind Regards James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psub101 at indy.rr.com Tue Oct 22 07:41:01 2013 From: psub101 at indy.rr.com (Steve McQueen) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 7:41:01 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20131022114102.KB727.189422.root@cdptpa-web25> James, congrats! I enjoyed the photos. Felt like I was there : ) Steve ---- James Frankland wrote: > Hi All, > > I got my boat in the water at the weekend for the first time. Put the > pictures up here. > > http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/operations.htm > > I didnt get any leaks at all, so i was super happy. I wasnt really > expecting to try and dive and would have been happy with just no leaks and > a float test, but everything worked fine, so i gave it a go. Unfortunately > i didnt have enough lead. I added 90KG (198lb) of lead, but it still > wouldnt go down. What i didnt mention on the website was that i was forced > to stop testing because the harbour master came along to say that they had > had an anonymous phone call from some bloody do-gooder who pointed out that > we were using the comercial area of the harbour and didnt have a proper > comercial dive team, which is officially a legal requirement. So even > though i had full permission from the harbour, i was forced to stop on a > technicality. They think it was some missery that has the hump on with > harbour and just wanted to be awkward. Shame because I was about to load > a pile of anchor chain into the boat to get me more weight. > > The boat did seem to be very light at the back and i kept squirting air > into the forward tank to level it out. Thinking about it, i suspect that > the forward tank was settling into the correct position and it was the aft > tank that was riding high. Just need to get some weight at the back. I > had a slight list to port as well which i've no idea where that came from. > Again i will trim that up. > > Anyway, i was really pleased with how it went on my first day. Im meeting > my divers tonight who took a load of underwater pics apparently, so i will > see how they look later. Might put some on the web if they are any good. > > Kind Regards > James From jonw at psubs.org Tue Oct 22 09:02:31 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 09:02:31 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch In-Reply-To: <20131022114102.KB727.189422.root@cdptpa-web25> References: <20131022114102.KB727.189422.root@cdptpa-web25> Message-ID: <52667767.4040301@psubs.org> Congratulations James! You've worked hard on that sub and your attention to detail shows. Jon From Alec.Smyth at covisint.com Tue Oct 22 09:43:26 2013 From: Alec.Smyth at covisint.com (Smyth, Alec) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 13:43:26 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's a really different and clean looking 350, congrats! I suspect she will be far more efficient on surface runs or tows, which is a huge plus. I'm looking forward to dive reports, and am green with envy that you have a sub right on the ocean, whereas in these parts we're limited to muddy puddles, and often man-made puddles at that. Congrats on a super job, and thanks for the detailed project page. Best, Alec From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of James Frankland Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 5:07 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org; member-forum at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch Hi All, I got my boat in the water at the weekend for the first time. Put the pictures up here. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/operations.htm I didnt get any leaks at all, so i was super happy. I wasnt really expecting to try and dive and would have been happy with just no leaks and a float test, but everything worked fine, so i gave it a go. Unfortunately i didnt have enough lead. I added 90KG (198lb) of lead, but it still wouldnt go down. What i didnt mention on the website was that i was forced to stop testing because the harbour master came along to say that they had had an anonymous phone call from some bloody do-gooder who pointed out that we were using the comercial area of the harbour and didnt have a proper comercial dive team, which is officially a legal requirement. So even though i had full permission from the harbour, i was forced to stop on a technicality. They think it was some missery that has the hump on with harbour and just wanted to be awkward. Shame because I was about to load a pile of anchor chain into the boat to get me more weight. The boat did seem to be very light at the back and i kept squirting air into the forward tank to level it out. Thinking about it, i suspect that the forward tank was settling into the correct position and it was the aft tank that was riding high. Just need to get some weight at the back. I had a slight list to port as well which i've no idea where that came from. Again i will trim that up. Anyway, i was really pleased with how it went on my first day. Im meeting my divers tonight who took a load of underwater pics apparently, so i will see how they look later. Might put some on the web if they are any good. Kind Regards James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Tue Oct 22 10:01:58 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 15:01:58 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks guys. Jim, yes could have been a grumpy commercial diver, but i suspect more likely just some misserable old school fisherman who just didnt like to see someone using an area of the harbour he isnt allowed in. We have a lot of them here. I was deliberatly trying to avoid spectators and media as I wasnt even sure the boat was going to float. Would have been embarrasing to make a big fuss over it with the TV and everything there just for it to leak, or tip over and sink! On 22 October 2013 14:43, Smyth, Alec wrote: > That?s a really different and clean looking 350, congrats! I suspect she > will be far more efficient on surface runs or tows, which is a huge plus. > I?m looking forward to dive reports, and am green with envy that you have a > sub right on the ocean, whereas in these parts we?re limited to muddy > puddles, and often man-made puddles at that. Congrats on a super job, and > thanks for the detailed project page.**** > > ** ** > > Best,**** > > > Alec**** > > ** ** > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *James Frankland > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 22, 2013 5:07 AM > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org; member-forum at psubs.org > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch**** > > ** ** > > Hi All,**** > > **** > > I got my boat in the water at the weekend for the first time. Put the > pictures up here.**** > > **** > > http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/operations.htm**** > > **** > > I didnt get any leaks at all, so i was super happy. I wasnt really > expecting to try and dive and would have been happy with just no leaks and > a float test, but everything worked fine, so i gave it a go. Unfortunately > i didnt have enough lead. I added 90KG (198lb) of lead, but it still > wouldnt go down. What i didnt mention on the website was that i was forced > to stop testing because the harbour master came along to say that they had > had an anonymous phone call from some bloody do-gooder who pointed out that > we were using the comercial area of the harbour and didnt have a proper > comercial dive team, which is officially a legal requirement. So even > though i had full permission from the harbour, i was forced to stop on a > technicality. They think it was some missery that has the hump on with > harbour and just wanted to be awkward. Shame because I was about to load > a pile of anchor chain into the boat to get me more weight.**** > > **** > > The boat did seem to be very light at the back and i kept squirting air > into the forward tank to level it out. Thinking about it, i suspect that > the forward tank was settling into the correct position and it was the aft > tank that was riding high. Just need to get some weight at the back. I > had a slight list to port as well which i've no idea where that came from. > Again i will trim that up.**** > > **** > > Anyway, i was really pleased with how it went on my first day. Im meeting > my divers tonight who took a load of underwater pics apparently, so i will > see how they look later. Might put some on the web if they are any good.* > *** > > **** > > Kind Regards > James**** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > **** > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jumachine at comcast.net Tue Oct 22 10:46:41 2013 From: jumachine at comcast.net (Dan H.) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 10:46:41 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch References: Message-ID: <003a01cecf35$85d5f110$9101a8c0@hryhorcoff2> James, Really really nice job, inside and out. Congratulations James! I'm happy to see a K-350 built so nice. With your attention to details, I would have been very surprised to hear that you had a leak of any kind. I'm pretty sure every K-350 of the two person design is light in the back. Don't forget, the design started out two feet shorter then was lengthened. The weight and locations of the drop weights and battery pods didn't change and now make it heavy in the front. I have a lot of lead far aft in mine. Again Congratulations on a great build and dunk! Dan H. ----- Original Message ----- From: James Frankland To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org ; member-forum at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 5:06 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch Hi All, I got my boat in the water at the weekend for the first time. Put the pictures up here. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/operations.htm I didnt get any leaks at all, so i was super happy. I wasnt really expecting to try and dive and would have been happy with just no leaks and a float test, but everything worked fine, so i gave it a go. Unfortunately i didnt have enough lead. I added 90KG (198lb) of lead, but it still wouldnt go down. What i didnt mention on the website was that i was forced to stop testing because the harbour master came along to say that they had had an anonymous phone call from some bloody do-gooder who pointed out that we were using the comercial area of the harbour and didnt have a proper comercial dive team, which is officially a legal requirement. So even though i had full permission from the harbour, i was forced to stop on a technicality. They think it was some missery that has the hump on with harbour and just wanted to be awkward. Shame because I was about to load a pile of anchor chain into the boat to get me more weight. The boat did seem to be very light at the back and i kept squirting air into the forward tank to level it out. Thinking about it, i suspect that the forward tank was settling into the correct position and it was the aft tank that was riding high. Just need to get some weight at the back. I had a slight list to port as well which i've no idea where that came from. Again i will trim that up. Anyway, i was really pleased with how it went on my first day. Im meeting my divers tonight who took a load of underwater pics apparently, so i will see how they look later. Might put some on the web if they are any good. Kind Regards James ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Tue Oct 22 11:07:23 2013 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 15:07:23 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch Message-ID: <20131022080766.SM06568@[66.162.33.185]> Clean looking boat James,? congratulations on getting her wet ! Brian -----Original Message----- From: "James Frankland" Sent 10/22/2013 2:06:49 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org, member-forum at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First LaunchHi All,?I got my boat in the water at the weekend for the first time.? Put the pictures up here.?http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/operations.htm?I didnt get any leaks at all, so i was super happy.? I wasnt really expecting to try and dive and would have been happy with just no leaks and a float test, but everything worked fine, so i gave it a go.? Unfortunately i didnt have enough lead.? I added 90KG (198lb) of lead, but it still wouldnt go down.? What i didnt mention on the website was that i was forced to stop testing because the harbour master came along to say that they had had an anonymous phone call from some bloody do-gooder who pointed out that we were using the comercial area of the harbour and didnt have a proper comercial dive team, which is officially a legal requirement.? So even though i had full permission from the harbour, i was forced to stop on a technicality.? They think it was some missery that has the hump on with harbour and just wanted to be awkward.? Shame because I was about to load a?pile of anchor chain into the boat to get me more weight.?The boat did seem to be very light at the back and i kept squirting air into the forward tank to level it out.? Thinking about it, i suspect that the forward tank was settling into the correct position and it was the aft tank that was riding high.? Just need to get some weight at the back.? I had a slight list to port as well which i've no idea where that came from.? Again i will trim that up.?Anyway, i was really pleased with how it went on my first day.? Im meeting my divers tonight who took a load of underwater pics apparently, so i will see how they look later.? Might put some on the web if they are any good.?Kind Regards James????_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophercave at yahoo.com Tue Oct 22 12:45:30 2013 From: christophercave at yahoo.com (Christopher Cave) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 09:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull In-Reply-To: <20131022080766.SM06568@[66.162.33.185]> References: <20131022080766.SM06568@[66.162.33.185]> Message-ID: <1382460330.87795.YahooMailNeo@web121101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hello, ? What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. ? Thanks, Chris Christopher Cave christophercave at yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Tue Oct 22 12:52:14 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 12:52:14 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull In-Reply-To: <1382460330.87795.YahooMailNeo@web121101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <20131022080766.SM06568@[66.162.33.185]> <1382460330.87795.YahooMailNeo@web121101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5266AD3E.5010100@psubs.org> Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. Jon On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: > Hello, > What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned > marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I > can review. > Thanks, > Chris > *Christopher Cave > * > /_*christophercave at yahoo.com*_/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Tue Oct 22 12:59:45 2013 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 12:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Message-ID: <99151.6a0810c2.3f980901@aol.com> Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% Phosphorous 0.035% max Sulphur 0.035% max Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. Jon On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: Hello, What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. Thanks, Chris Christopher Cave _christophercave at yahoo.com_ (mailto:christophercave at yahoo.com) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Tue Oct 22 13:12:35 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 10:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1382461955.74005.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> James,

It was these guys who turned you in,... http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_0CY4KJHWZdU/Rq8zbZmB_xI/AAAAAAAAAr4/Y1Jb0Rn5kUo/s320/g_c_one.jpg

Congratulations on a beautifully built boat!


Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Alec.Smyth at covisint.com Tue Oct 22 13:33:37 2013 From: Alec.Smyth at covisint.com (Smyth, Alec) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 17:33:37 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That actually happened to one of my naval architecture professors, when he was a young engineer launching his first vessel. It was a commercial fishing ship, and the yard put on a big launching ceremony with lots of VIPs present. She went down the slipway and promptly turned turtle in front of the crowd. The reason was that the fitting out was going to be done afloat over the next few months, and at the time of the launch the engines and other engine room equipment (heavy and low) had not been installed. Talk about an embarrassing situation, but fortunately he overcame it in time, and in fact was probably the most prolific naval architect in the country when I had him as a teacher in his seventies. Cheers, Alec From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of James Frankland Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 10:02 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch Thanks guys. Jim, yes could have been a grumpy commercial diver, but i suspect more likely just some misserable old school fisherman who just didnt like to see someone using an area of the harbour he isnt allowed in. We have a lot of them here. I was deliberatly trying to avoid spectators and media as I wasnt even sure the boat was going to float. Would have been embarrasing to make a big fuss over it with the TV and everything there just for it to leak, or tip over and sink! On 22 October 2013 14:43, Smyth, Alec > wrote: That's a really different and clean looking 350, congrats! I suspect she will be far more efficient on surface runs or tows, which is a huge plus. I'm looking forward to dive reports, and am green with envy that you have a sub right on the ocean, whereas in these parts we're limited to muddy puddles, and often man-made puddles at that. Congrats on a super job, and thanks for the detailed project page. Best, Alec From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of James Frankland Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 5:07 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org; member-forum at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch Hi All, I got my boat in the water at the weekend for the first time. Put the pictures up here. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/operations.htm I didnt get any leaks at all, so i was super happy. I wasnt really expecting to try and dive and would have been happy with just no leaks and a float test, but everything worked fine, so i gave it a go. Unfortunately i didnt have enough lead. I added 90KG (198lb) of lead, but it still wouldnt go down. What i didnt mention on the website was that i was forced to stop testing because the harbour master came along to say that they had had an anonymous phone call from some bloody do-gooder who pointed out that we were using the comercial area of the harbour and didnt have a proper comercial dive team, which is officially a legal requirement. So even though i had full permission from the harbour, i was forced to stop on a technicality. They think it was some missery that has the hump on with harbour and just wanted to be awkward. Shame because I was about to load a pile of anchor chain into the boat to get me more weight. The boat did seem to be very light at the back and i kept squirting air into the forward tank to level it out. Thinking about it, i suspect that the forward tank was settling into the correct position and it was the aft tank that was riding high. Just need to get some weight at the back. I had a slight list to port as well which i've no idea where that came from. Again i will trim that up. Anyway, i was really pleased with how it went on my first day. Im meeting my divers tonight who took a load of underwater pics apparently, so i will see how they look later. Might put some on the web if they are any good. Kind Regards James _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Tue Oct 22 14:00:57 2013 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 08:00:57 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B0668487FAA49CAA9C96DC993613108@LandNSeaPC> Congratulations James! I have been watching your progress closely thanks to your well documented pictures of construction as I am building a K-350 as well and have been impressed on the quality of your build. It is easy to just slap something together and get the same results but there is so much more pride in a project when you go the extra mile to do a quality job which is usually much more of a hassle. Your wood floor boards are a nice touch and one that I am going to use after seeing them! Can?t wait to hear from you once she goes under. Best of luck Rick From: Smyth, Alec Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:33 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch That actually happened to one of my naval architecture professors, when he was a young engineer launching his first vessel. It was a commercial fishing ship, and the yard put on a big launching ceremony with lots of VIPs present. She went down the slipway and promptly turned turtle in front of the crowd. The reason was that the fitting out was going to be done afloat over the next few months, and at the time of the launch the engines and other engine room equipment (heavy and low) had not been installed. Talk about an embarrassing situation, but fortunately he overcame it in time, and in fact was probably the most prolific naval architect in the country when I had him as a teacher in his seventies. Cheers, Alec From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of James Frankland Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 10:02 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch Thanks guys. Jim, yes could have been a grumpy commercial diver, but i suspect more likely just some misserable old school fisherman who just didnt like to see someone using an area of the harbour he isnt allowed in. We have a lot of them here. I was deliberatly trying to avoid spectators and media as I wasnt even sure the boat was going to float. Would have been embarrasing to make a big fuss over it with the TV and everything there just for it to leak, or tip over and sink! On 22 October 2013 14:43, Smyth, Alec wrote: That?s a really different and clean looking 350, congrats! I suspect she will be far more efficient on surface runs or tows, which is a huge plus. I?m looking forward to dive reports, and am green with envy that you have a sub right on the ocean, whereas in these parts we?re limited to muddy puddles, and often man-made puddles at that. Congrats on a super job, and thanks for the detailed project page. Best, Alec From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of James Frankland Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 5:07 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org; member-forum at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch Hi All, I got my boat in the water at the weekend for the first time. Put the pictures up here. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/operations.htm I didnt get any leaks at all, so i was super happy. I wasnt really expecting to try and dive and would have been happy with just no leaks and a float test, but everything worked fine, so i gave it a go. Unfortunately i didnt have enough lead. I added 90KG (198lb) of lead, but it still wouldnt go down. What i didnt mention on the website was that i was forced to stop testing because the harbour master came along to say that they had had an anonymous phone call from some bloody do-gooder who pointed out that we were using the comercial area of the harbour and didnt have a proper comercial dive team, which is officially a legal requirement. So even though i had full permission from the harbour, i was forced to stop on a technicality. They think it was some missery that has the hump on with harbour and just wanted to be awkward. Shame because I was about to load a pile of anchor chain into the boat to get me more weight. The boat did seem to be very light at the back and i kept squirting air into the forward tank to level it out. Thinking about it, i suspect that the forward tank was settling into the correct position and it was the aft tank that was riding high. Just need to get some weight at the back. I had a slight list to port as well which i've no idea where that came from. Again i will trim that up. Anyway, i was really pleased with how it went on my first day. Im meeting my divers tonight who took a load of underwater pics apparently, so i will see how they look later. Might put some on the web if they are any good. Kind Regards James _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Tue Oct 22 14:15:24 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 07:15:24 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Congratulations James, Look forward to the coming videos. What a pain having to cut things short after all that effort. Maybe you cold buy everyone a set of orange overalls like Carsten does, to make things look professional. Alan Sent from my iPad On 22/10/2013, at 10:06 PM, James Frankland wrote: > Hi All, > > I got my boat in the water at the weekend for the first time. Put the pictures up here. > > http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/operations.htm > > I didnt get any leaks at all, so i was super happy. I wasnt really expecting to try and dive and would have been happy with just no leaks and a float test, but everything worked fine, so i gave it a go. Unfortunately i didnt have enough lead. I added 90KG (198lb) of lead, but it still wouldnt go down. What i didnt mention on the website was that i was forced to stop testing because the harbour master came along to say that they had had an anonymous phone call from some bloody do-gooder who pointed out that we were using the comercial area of the harbour and didnt have a proper comercial dive team, which is officially a legal requirement. So even though i had full permission from the harbour, i was forced to stop on a technicality. They think it was some missery that has the hump on with harbour and just wanted to be awkward. Shame because I was about to load a pile of anchor chain into the boat to get me more weight. > > The boat did seem to be very light at the back and i kept squirting air into the forward tank to level it out. Thinking about it, i suspect that the forward tank was settling into the correct position and it was the aft tank that was riding high. Just need to get some weight at the back. I had a slight list to port as well which i've no idea where that came from. Again i will trim that up. > > Anyway, i was really pleased with how it went on my first day. Im meeting my divers tonight who took a load of underwater pics apparently, so i will see how they look later. Might put some on the web if they are any good. > > Kind Regards > James > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 22 14:24:52 2013 From: jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com (greg cottrell) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 11:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull In-Reply-To: <99151.6a0810c2.3f980901@aol.com> References: <99151.6a0810c2.3f980901@aol.com> Message-ID: <1382466292.69272.YahooMailNeo@web121903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. ? Greg ________________________________ From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% Phosphorous 0.035% max Sulphur 0.035% max Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: >Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. > >Jon > > >On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: > >Hello, >>? >>What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. >>? >>Thanks, >>Chris >> >>Christopher Cave >> >>christophercave at yahoo.com >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Tue Oct 22 15:41:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 22 Oct 2013 19:41 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1VYhqJ-1v66JE0@fwd10.t-online.de> Hi James congratulations, - seems more and more that to light is a normal standard on launching Psubs. May do not install fix weight in the stern next time. Install it lose in the center and than trim it longitudinal on dive station with move it forward or aftward or more in or out. Its the fastest way to figure out the right weight and trim. By the way Alan our overalls are red, and it help the skipper to figure out which guy is in his crew and which not.. Also the guys with the brighter (many times washed out) overalls are the workers in the crew.. http://www.hansesail.com/uploads/tx_gorillary/2013_38_euronauttauchtauf_01.jpg :-) vbr Carsten "Alan" schrieb: Congratulations James, Look forward to the coming videos. What a pain having to cut things short after all that effort. Maybe you cold buy everyone a set of orange overalls like Carsten does, to make things look professional. Alan Sent from my iPad On 22/10/2013, at 10:06 PM, James Frankland wrote: Hi All, I got my boat in the water at the weekend for the first time. Put the pictures up here. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/operations.htm I didnt get any leaks at all, so i was super happy. I wasnt really expecting to try and dive and would have been happy with just no leaks and a float test, but everything worked fine, so i gave it a go. Unfortunately i didnt have enough lead. I added 90KG (198lb) of lead, but it still wouldnt go down. What i didnt mention on the website was that i was forced to stop testing because the harbour master came along to say that they had had an anonymous phone call from some bloody do-gooder who pointed out that we were using the comercial area of the harbour and didnt have a proper comercial dive team, which is officially a legal requirement. So even though i had full permission from the harbour, i was forced to stop on a technicality. They think it was some missery that has the hump on with harbour and just wanted to be awkward. Shame because I was about to load a pile of anchor chain into the boat to get me more weight. The boat did seem to be very light at the back and i kept squirting air into the forward tank to level it out. Thinking about it, i suspect that the forward tank was settling into the correct position and it was the aft tank that was riding high. Just need to get some weight at the back. I had a slight list to port as well which i've no idea where that came from. Again i will trim that up. Anyway, i was really pleased with how it went on my first day. Im meeting my divers tonight who took a load of underwater pics apparently, so i will see how they look later. Might put some on the web if they are any good. Kind Regards James _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Tue Oct 22 16:18:09 2013 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 16:18:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Message-ID: Greg, I should have clarified that. It was a cut-and-paste from a web site. I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises. That was the case in this instance. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. Greg From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% Phosphorous 0.035% max Sulphur 0.035% max Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. Jon On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: Hello, What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. Thanks, Chris Christopher Cave _christophercave at yahoo.com_ (mailto:christophercave at yahoo.com) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hc.fulton at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 17:28:52 2013 From: hc.fulton at gmail.com (Hugh Fulton) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 10:28:52 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5266ee19.41b3440a.5292.ffff995f@mx.google.com> Well done James, That looks really smart. As my mother's family was from Guernsey I have taken special interest in your build. One day I will get there. As I have a set of K350 plans I am intrigued by your changes and bits. Somehow it looks much sleeker. Good diving. Regards, Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of James Frankland Sent: Tuesday, 22 October 2013 10:07 p.m. To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org; member-forum at psubs.org Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch Hi All, I got my boat in the water at the weekend for the first time. Put the pictures up here. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/operations.htm I didnt get any leaks at all, so i was super happy. I wasnt really expecting to try and dive and would have been happy with just no leaks and a float test, but everything worked fine, so i gave it a go. Unfortunately i didnt have enough lead. I added 90KG (198lb) of lead, but it still wouldnt go down. What i didnt mention on the website was that i was forced to stop testing because the harbour master came along to say that they had had an anonymous phone call from some bloody do-gooder who pointed out that we were using the comercial area of the harbour and didnt have a proper comercial dive team, which is officially a legal requirement. So even though i had full permission from the harbour, i was forced to stop on a technicality. They think it was some missery that has the hump on with harbour and just wanted to be awkward. Shame because I was about to load a pile of anchor chain into the boat to get me more weight. The boat did seem to be very light at the back and i kept squirting air into the forward tank to level it out. Thinking about it, i suspect that the forward tank was settling into the correct position and it was the aft tank that was riding high. Just need to get some weight at the back. I had a slight list to port as well which i've no idea where that came from. Again i will trim that up. Anyway, i was really pleased with how it went on my first day. Im meeting my divers tonight who took a load of underwater pics apparently, so i will see how they look later. Might put some on the web if they are any good. Kind Regards James __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8948 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Tue Oct 22 18:23:10 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 18:23:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D09D8C6C72E399-12AC-3B4B3@webmail-vd004.sysops.aol.com> Jim, A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Greg, I should have clarified that. It was a cut-and-paste from a web site. I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises. That was the case in this instance. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. Greg From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% Phosphorous 0.035% max Sulphur 0.035% max Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. Jon On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: Hello, What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. Thanks, Chris Christopher Cave christophercave at yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Tue Oct 22 18:41:39 2013 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 18:41:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Message-ID: Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516. I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: Jim, A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Greg, I should have clarified that. It was a cut-and-paste from a web site. I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises. That was the case in this instance. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, _jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com_ (mailto:jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com) writes: Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. Greg From: "_JimToddPsub at aol.com_ (mailto:JimToddPsub at aol.com) " <_JimToddPsub at aol.com_ (mailto:JimToddPsub at aol.com) > To: _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% Phosphorous 0.035% max Sulphur 0.035% max Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, _jonw at psubs.org_ (mailto:jonw at psubs.org) writes: Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. Jon On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: Hello, What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. Thanks, Chris Christopher Cave _christophercave at yahoo.com_ (mailto:christophercave at yahoo.com) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Tue Oct 22 18:52:38 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 18:52:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D09D908A378DC4-1960-3B69F@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> Jim, PC-9 & PC-15 were (are) A537. The 9-boat was 9/16" wall, rated and certified for 1350 feet, and the 15 (I think, originally at least) for 1500. Maybe that was the dive chamber. Don't remember. Some of the boats were normalized, too--built and sent off for a nice broil in the ovens in Alabama. Mike Stahle said no, but I keep remembering that one of the PC-14s was 7/16" wall and had been normalized. Both the 14s were rated to 1200 feet, although 1402 was sold to the Army for 600 foot service without ABS certification. They said they didn't need certification, so didn't have to pay for it, apparently. Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516. I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: Jim, A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Greg, I should have clarified that. It was a cut-and-paste from a web site. I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises. That was the case in this instance. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. Greg From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% Phosphorous 0.035% max Sulphur 0.035% max Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. Jon On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: Hello, What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. Thanks, Chris Christopher Cave christophercave at yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Tue Oct 22 18:55:14 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 18:55:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516. I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: Jim, A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Greg, I should have clarified that. It was a cut-and-paste from a web site. I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises. That was the case in this instance. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. Greg From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% Phosphorous 0.035% max Sulphur 0.035% max Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. Jon On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: Hello, What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. Thanks, Chris Christopher Cave christophercave at yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hc.fulton at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 20:13:05 2013 From: hc.fulton at gmail.com (Hugh Fulton) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 13:13:05 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull In-Reply-To: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <52671495.6a8a420a.25a3.ffff96e5@mx.google.com> Vance, I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don't know what on. I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516. I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: Jim, A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Greg, I should have clarified that. It was a cut-and-paste from a web site. I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises. That was the case in this instance. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. Greg From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% Phosphorous 0.035% max Sulphur 0.035% max Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. Jon On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: Hello, What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. Thanks, Chris Christopher Cave christophercave at yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Vbra676539 at AOL.com Tue Oct 22 20:36:35 2013 From: Vbra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 20:36:35 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull In-Reply-To: <52671495.6a8a420a.25a3.ffff96e5@mx.google.com> References: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> <52671495.6a8a420a.25a3.ffff96e5@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <9A717C1F-0CD4-4457-9B5B-E29C4D61383B@AOL.com> Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: > Vance, I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on. I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. > > Hugh > > > > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > > > One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. > > Vance > > -----Original Message----- > From: JimToddPsub > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > Vance, > > From Leeco Steel's website: > > > > A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. > > > > Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516. I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. > > > > Jim > > > > In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: > > Jim, > > A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). > > Vance > > -----Original Message----- > From: JimToddPsub > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > Greg, > > I should have clarified that. It was a cut-and-paste from a web site. I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises. That was the case in this instance. > > Jim > > > > In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: > > Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. > > > > Greg > > > > From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > > > Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: > > > > ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . > > It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. > > For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. > > For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): > > Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% > Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% > Phosphorous 0.035% max > Sulphur 0.035% max > Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% > > > > In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: > > > Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. > > Jon > > > On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: > > Hello, > > > > What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. > > > > Thanks, > > Chris > > > > Christopher Cave > > christophercave at yahoo.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ > > > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hc.fulton at gmail.com Tue Oct 22 22:15:01 2013 From: hc.fulton at gmail.com (Hugh Fulton) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 15:15:01 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull In-Reply-To: <9A717C1F-0CD4-4457-9B5B-E29C4D61383B@AOL.com> References: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> <52671495.6a8a420a.25a3.ffff96e5@mx.google.com> <9A717C1F-0CD4-4457-9B5B-E29C4D61383B@AOL.com> Message-ID: <5267312a.63b9440a.2225.3acb@mx.google.com> Vance, Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Vance, I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on. I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516. I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: Jim, A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Greg, I should have clarified that. It was a cut-and-paste from a web site. I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises. That was the case in this instance. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. Greg From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% Phosphorous 0.035% max Sulphur 0.035% max Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. Jon On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: Hello, What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. Thanks, Chris Christopher Cave christophercave at yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Tue Oct 22 22:18:14 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 22:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull In-Reply-To: <5267312a.63b9440a.2225.3acb@mx.google.com> References: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> <52671495.6a8a420a.25a3.ffff96e5@mx.google.com> <9A717C1F-0CD4-4457-9B5B-E29C4D61383B@AOL.com> <5267312a.63b9440a.2225.3acb@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <8D09DAD42DC444C-1884-3D49F@webmail-m232.sysops.aol.com> I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Fulton To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance, Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Vance, I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on. I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516. I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: Jim, A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Greg, I should have clarified that. It was a cut-and-paste from a web site. I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises. That was the case in this instance. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. Greg From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% Phosphorous 0.035% max Sulphur 0.035% max Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. Jon On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: Hello, What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. Thanks, Chris Christopher Cave christophercave at yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phil at philnuytten.com Wed Oct 16 00:19:38 2013 From: phil at philnuytten.com (Phil Nuytten) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 21:19:38 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull In-Reply-To: <8D09DAD42DC444C-1884-3D49F@webmail-m232.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> <52671495.6a8a420a.25a3.ffff96e5@mx.google.com> <9A717C1F-0CD4-4457-9B5B-E29C4D61383B@AOL.com> <5267312a.63b9440a.2225.3acb@mx.google.com> <8D09DAD42DC444C-1884-3D49F@webmail-m232.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hi, Hugh As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. Phil From: vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Fulton To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance, Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Vance, I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on. I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance, From Leeco Steel's website: A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516. I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: Jim, A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Greg, I should have clarified that. It was a cut-and-paste from a web site. I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises. That was the case in this instance. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. Greg From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% Phosphorous 0.035% max Sulphur 0.035% max Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. Jon On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: Hello, What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. Thanks, Chris Christopher Cave christophercave at yahoo.com _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 23 08:10:07 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 05:10:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: References: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> <52671495.6a8a420a.25a3.ffff96e5@mx.google.com> <9A717C1F-0CD4-4457-9B5B-E29C4D61383B@AOL.com> <5267312a.63b9440a.2225.3acb@mx.google.com> <8D09DAD42DC444C-1884-3D49F@webmail-m232.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1382530207.7939.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test? my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West.? Hank From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hi, Hugh As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. Phil? From: vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Fulton To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance,? Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh ? ? ? From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Vance,? I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on.? I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. >Hugh >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com >Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > >One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. >Vance >-----Original Message----- >From: JimToddPsub >To: personal_submersibles >Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: >? >A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. >? >Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516.? I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. >? >Jim >? >In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: >Jim, >>A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). >>Vance >>-----Original Message----- >>From: JimToddPsub >>To: personal_submersibles >>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>Greg, >>I should have clarified that.? It was a cut-and-paste from a web site.? I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises.? That was the case in this instance. >>Jim >>? >>In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: >>Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. >>>? >>>Greg >>>? >>>From:"JimToddPsub at aol.com" >>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>? >>>Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: >>>? >>>ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . >>> >>>It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. >>> >>>For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. >>> >>>For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): >>> >>>Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% >>>Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% >>>Phosphorous 0.035% max >>>Sulphur 0.035% max >>>Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% >>>? >>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: >>> >>>>Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. >>>> >>>>Jon >>>> >>>> >>>>On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: >>>>Hello, >>>>>? >>>>>What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. >>>>>? >>>>>Thanks, >>>>>Chris >>>>>? >>>>>Christopher Cave >>>>> >>>>>christophercave at yahoo.com >>>>>? >>>>>? >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ > > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Wed Oct 23 08:17:21 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 13:17:21 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch In-Reply-To: <1VYhqJ-1v66JE0@fwd10.t-online.de> References: <1VYhqJ-1v66JE0@fwd10.t-online.de> Message-ID: What im going to do is fix 100Kg under the aft tank, and then make the rest in blocks that can be moved around. Then divers can place them with straps to the underside somewhere until its balanced. Will make the blocks at the weekend. On 22 October 2013 20:41, wrote: > ** > Hi James congratulations, > - seems more and more that to light is a normal standard on > launching Psubs. > > May do not install fix weight in the stern next time. Install > it lose in the center and than trim it longitudinal on dive station > with move it forward or aftward or more in or out. > Its the fastest way to figure out the right weight and trim. > > By the way Alan our overalls are red, and it help the skipper > to figure out which guy is in his crew and which not.. > Also the guys with the brighter (many times washed out) overalls are the > workers in the crew.. > > http://www.hansesail.com/uploads/tx_gorillary/2013_38_euronauttauchtauf_01.jpg > > :-) vbr Carsten > > > > "Alan" schrieb: > > Congratulations James, > Look forward to the coming videos. > What a pain having to cut things short after all that effort. > Maybe you cold buy everyone a set of orange overalls like Carsten > does, to make things look professional. > Alan > > > Sent from my iPad > > On 22/10/2013, at 10:06 PM, James Frankland > wrote: > > Hi All, > > I got my boat in the water at the weekend for the first time. Put the > pictures up here. > > http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/operations.htm > > I didnt get any leaks at all, so i was super happy. I wasnt really > expecting to try and dive and would have been happy with just no leaks and > a float test, but everything worked fine, so i gave it a go. Unfortunately > i didnt have enough lead. I added 90KG (198lb) of lead, but it still > wouldnt go down. What i didnt mention on the website was that i was forced > to stop testing because the harbour master came along to say that they had > had an anonymous phone call from some bloody do-gooder who pointed out that > we were using the comercial area of the harbour and didnt have a proper > comercial dive team, which is officially a legal requirement. So even > though i had full permission from the harbour, i was forced to stop on a > technicality. They think it was some missery that has the hump on with > harbour and just wanted to be awkward. Shame because I was about to load > a pile of anchor chain into the boat to get me more weight. > > The boat did seem to be very light at the back and i kept squirting air > into the forward tank to level it out. Thinking about it, i suspect that > the forward tank was settling into the correct position and it was the aft > tank that was riding high. Just need to get some weight at the back. I > had a slight list to port as well which i've no idea where that came from. > Again i will trim that up. > > Anyway, i was really pleased with how it went on my first day. Im meeting > my divers tonight who took a load of underwater pics apparently, so i will > see how they look later. Might put some on the web if they are any good. > > Kind Regards > James > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -- > > Carsten Standfu? > Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik > Heinrich Reck Str.12A > 18211 Admannshagen > > 0172 8464 420 > WWW.Euronaut.org > Carsten at euronaut.org > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Oct 23 08:33:09 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 05:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: <1382530207.7939.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> <52671495.6a8a420a.25a3.ffff96e5@mx.google.com> <9A717C1F-0CD4-4457-9B5B-E29C4D61383B@AOL.com> <5267312a.63b9440a.2225.3acb@mx.google.com> <8D09DAD42DC444C-1884-3D49F@webmail-m232.sysops.aol.com> <1382530207.7939.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382531589.7964.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hank, ? There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. ? A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. Go to the WHOI website for info ? ? Joe ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test? my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West.? Hank ________________________________ From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hi, Hugh As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. Phil? From: vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Fulton To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance,? Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh ? ? ? From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Vance,? I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on.? I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. >Hugh >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com >Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > >One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. >Vance >-----Original Message----- >From: JimToddPsub >To: personal_submersibles >Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: >? >A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. >? >Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516.? I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. >? >Jim >? >In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: >Jim, >>A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). >>Vance >>-----Original Message----- >>From: JimToddPsub >>To: personal_submersibles >>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>Greg, >>I should have clarified that.? It was a cut-and-paste from a web site.? I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises.? That was the case in this instance. >>Jim >>? >>In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: >>Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. >>>? >>>Greg >>>? >>>From:"JimToddPsub at aol.com" >>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>? >>>Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: >>>? >>>ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . >>> >>>It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. >>> >>>For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. >>> >>>For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): >>> >>>Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% >>>Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% >>>Phosphorous 0.035% max >>>Sulphur 0.035% max >>>Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% >>>? >>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: >>> >>>>Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. >>>> >>>>Jon >>>> >>>> >>>>On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: >>>>Hello, >>>>>? >>>>>What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. >>>>>? >>>>>Thanks, >>>>>Chris >>>>>? >>>>>Christopher Cave >>>>> >>>>>christophercave at yahoo.com >>>>>? >>>>>? >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ > > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Wed Oct 23 08:40:58 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 08:40:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: <1382530207.7939.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> <52671495.6a8a420a.25a3.ffff96e5@mx.google.com> <9A717C1F-0CD4-4457-9B5B-E29C4D61383B@AOL.com> <5267312a.63b9440a.2225.3acb@mx.google.com> <8D09DAD42DC444C-1884-3D49F@webmail-m232.sysops.aol.com> <1382530207.7939.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D09E0441EE88CC-19C0-1B5B@webmail-va008.sysops.aol.com> The only tank I know about is at Nuytco, and may be short for Gamma in any case. Suggest you send a note to Phil Nuytten directly, as he is the most likely person (possibly on earth) to answer your question with specifics. Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Oct 23, 2013 8:10 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West. Hank From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hi, Hugh As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. Phil From: vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Fulton To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance, Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Vance, I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on. I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516. I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: Jim, A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Greg, I should have clarified that. It was a cut-and-paste from a web site. I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises. That was the case in this instance. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. Greg From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% Phosphorous 0.035% max Sulphur 0.035% max Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. Jon On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: Hello, What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. Thanks, Chris Christopher Cave christophercave at yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 08:52:33 2013 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 08:52:33 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: <1382531589.7964.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> <52671495.6a8a420a.25a3.ffff96e5@mx.google.com> <9A717C1F-0CD4-4457-9B5B-E29C4D61383B@AOL.com> <5267312a.63b9440a.2225.3acb@mx.google.com> <8D09DAD42DC444C-1884-3D49F@webmail-m232.sysops.aol.com> <1382530207.7939.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382531589.7964.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Hank, I asked at Carderock over a decade ago and was told the cost would depend on setup time, which varies depending on how much instrumentation you want during the test, but that a typical figure was around $27K. Waaaay beyond my budget. Dale Heinzing tested Snoopy somewhere on the West side of Canada at a lumber yard. Snoopy went in the tank alongside the lumber and must have been pretty well disinfected, but the scary bit was that they released the pressure almost instantaneously, with a bang. That test was to only 400' so not really sufficient for a Nekton, but it might still be of interest since I think it's relatively close to you and probably was inexpensive. Best, Alec On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Hank, > > There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" > limit if I recall correctly. > The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. > > A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. > Go to the WHOI website for info > > > Joe > > *From:* hank pronk > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test > > Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test my > Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West. > Hank > > *From:* Phil Nuytten > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > Hi, Hugh > As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, > that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up > with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide > to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. > Phil > > *From:* vbra676539 at aol.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, > of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the > pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. > Vance > -----Original Message----- > From: Hugh Fulton > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > Vance, Yep that sounds about right. > Are there any nasties to using it? > Chs Hugh > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [ > mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] > *On Behalf Of *Vance Bradley > *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > Hugh, > HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% > depth increase. > Vance > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: > > Vance, I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I > don?t know what on. I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the > HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. > Hugh > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [ > mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > *On Behalf Of *vbra676539 at aol.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the > DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, > he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. > Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with > welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. > Vance > -----Original Message----- > From: JimToddPsub > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > Vance, > From Leeco Steel's website: > > A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield > and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. *A537 steel plate > * is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the > oil, gas and petrochemical industry. > > Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516. I'm sure > there are more variables to consider including cost. > > Jim > > In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > vbra676539 at aol.com writes: > > Jim, > A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that > Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told > that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better > cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on > this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which > I suspect he is). > Vance > -----Original Message----- > From: JimToddPsub > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > Greg, > I should have clarified that. It was a cut-and-paste from a web site. > I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I > come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises. That > was the case in this instance. > Jim > > In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: > > Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the > group that is also in the steel industry. > > Greg > > *From:* "JimToddPsub at aol.com" > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: > > ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades > in market . > > It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch > toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley > Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of > tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of > the specifications popularity. > > For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates > supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. > > For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME > standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): > > Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% > Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% > Phosphorous 0.035% max > Sulphur 0.035% max > Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% > > In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > jonw at psubs.org writes: > > > Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. > > Jon > > > On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: > > Hello, > > What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned > marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can > review. > > Thanks, > Chris > > *Christopher Cave > * > *christophercave at yahoo.com* > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com/ > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com/ > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Oct 23 09:46:06 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 06:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1382535966.4073.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Wow that's a bit rough for a working man! So much for that.

I must say though, that I don't like much the lower the sub to the bottom and hope it comes back method of deep testing.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cast55 at telus.net Wed Oct 23 09:56:30 2013 From: cast55 at telus.net (cast55 at telus.net) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 07:56:30 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: References: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> <52671495.6a8a420a.25a3.ffff96e5@mx.google.com> <9A717C1F-0CD4-4457-9B5B-E29C4D61383B@AOL.com> <5267312a.63b9440a.2225.3acb@mx.google.com> <8D09DAD42DC444C-1884-3D49F@webmail-m232.sysops.aol.com> <1382530207.7939.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382531589.7964.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What are the dimensions? C-FER Technologies in Edmonton has a test chamber 4' diameter by 35' long. They proof test some of the AUV hulls for ISE there. Alec Smyth wrote: >Hi Hank, > >I asked at Carderock over a decade ago and was told the cost would >depend >on setup time, which varies depending on how much instrumentation you >want >during the test, but that a typical figure was around $27K. Waaaay >beyond >my budget. Dale Heinzing tested Snoopy somewhere on the West side of >Canada >at a lumber yard. Snoopy went in the tank alongside the lumber and must >have been pretty well disinfected, but the scary bit was that they >released >the pressure almost instantaneously, with a bang. That test was to >only >400' so not really sufficient for a Nekton, but it might still be of >interest since I think it's relatively close to you and probably was >inexpensive. > > >Best, > >Alec > > >On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Joe Perkel >wrote: > >> Hank, >> >> There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a >72" >> limit if I recall correctly. >> The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and >Alvin. >> >> A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do >it. >> Go to the WHOI website for info >> >> >> Joe >> >> *From:* hank pronk >> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test >> >> Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test >my >> Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West. >> Hank >> >> *From:* Phil Nuytten >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >> >> Hi, Hugh >> As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, >> that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come >up >> with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you >decide >> to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. >> Phil >> >> *From:* vbra676539 at aol.com >> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM >> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >> >> I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by >comparison, >> of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the >> pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. >> Vance >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Hugh Fulton >> To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >> >> Vance, Yep that sounds about right. >> Are there any nasties to using it? >> Chs Hugh >> >> >> >> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [ >> >mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] >> *On Behalf Of *Vance Bradley >> *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >> >> Hugh, >> HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% >> depth increase. >> Vance >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" >wrote: >> >> Vance, I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 >but I >> don?t know what on. I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper >using the >> HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. >> Hugh >> >> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [ >> >mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >> *On Behalf Of *vbra676539 at aol.com >> *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. >> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >> >> One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the >> DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to >A537, >> he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. >> Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do >with >> welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a >guess. >> Vance >> -----Original Message----- >> From: JimToddPsub >> To: personal_submersibles >> Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >> Vance, >> From Leeco Steel's website: >> >> A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater >yield >> and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. *A537 steel >plate >> * is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in >the >> oil, gas and petrochemical industry. >> >> Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516. I'm >sure >> there are more variables to consider including cost. >> >> Jim >> >> In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >> vbra676539 at aol.com writes: >> >> Jim, >> A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats >that >> Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall >being told >> that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better >> cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh >in on >> this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week >(which >> I suspect he is). >> Vance >> -----Original Message----- >> From: JimToddPsub >> To: personal_submersibles >> Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >> Greg, >> I should have clarified that. It was a cut-and-paste from a web >site. >> I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion >when I >> come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises. >That >> was the case in this instance. >> Jim >> >> In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >> jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: >> >> Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the >> group that is also in the steel industry. >> >> Greg >> >> *From:* "JimToddPsub at aol.com" >> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >> >> Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: >> >> ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel >grades >> in market . >> >> It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where >notch >> toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At >Oakley >> Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a >range of >> tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much >of >> the specifications popularity. >> >> For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. >Plates >> supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. >> >> For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME >> standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): >> >> Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% >> Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% >> Phosphorous 0.035% max >> Sulphur 0.035% max >> Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% >> >> In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, >> jonw at psubs.org writes: >> >> >> Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. >> >> Jon >> >> >> On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone >mentioned >> marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I >can >> review. >> >> Thanks, >> Chris >> >> *Christopher Cave >> * >> *christophercave at yahoo.com* >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com/ >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com/ >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing >listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cast55 at telus.net Wed Oct 23 10:01:24 2013 From: cast55 at telus.net (cast55 at telus.net) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 08:01:24 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull In-Reply-To: References: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> <52671495.6a8a420a.25a3.ffff96e5@mx.google.com> <9A717C1F-0CD4-4457-9B5B-E29C4D61383B@AOL.com> <5267312a.63b9440a.2225.3acb@mx.google.com> <8D09DAD42DC444C-1884-3D49F@webmail-m232.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <2e384d69-36a8-485a-be22-599b01fbb063@email.android.com> What were the specific challenges that you had to overcome to properly weld HY-80? Sean Phil Nuytten wrote: >Hi, Hugh >As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, >that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come >up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you >decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. >Phil > >From: vbra676539 at aol.com >Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > >I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, >of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the >pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. >Vance >-----Original Message----- >From: Hugh Fulton >To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > >Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > >Vance, Yep that sounds about right. >Are there any nasties to using it? >Chs Hugh > > > >From: Personal_Submersibles >[mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance >Bradley >Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > >Hugh, >HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% >depth increase. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: >Vance, I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but >I don?t know what on. I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper >using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. > Hugh > >From: Personal_Submersibles >[mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of >vbra676539 at aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > >One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the >DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to >A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, >apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something >to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. >Just a guess. > Vance > -----Original Message----- > From: JimToddPsub > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > Vance, > From Leeco Steel's website: > >A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater >yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 >steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is >used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. > >Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516. I'm sure >there are more variables to consider including cost. > > Jim > >In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >vbra676539 at aol.com writes: > Jim, >A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that >Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being >told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better >cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in >on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week >(which I suspect he is). > Vance > -----Original Message----- > From: JimToddPsub > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > Greg, >I should have clarified that. It was a cut-and-paste from a web site. >I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion >when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need >arises. That was the case in this instance. > Jim > >In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: >Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the >group that is also in the steel industry. > > Greg > > From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: > >ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades >in market . > >It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch >toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At >Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover >a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility >explains much of the specifications popularity. > >For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates >supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. > >For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME >standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): > > Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% > Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% > Phosphorous 0.035% max > Sulphur 0.035% max > Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% > >In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, >jonw at psubs.org writes: > > Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. > > Jon > > > On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: > Hello, > >What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned >marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I >can review. > > Thanks, > Chris > > Christopher Cave > > christophercave at yahoo.com > > >_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles >mailing >listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles >mailing >listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles >mailing >listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com > > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Wed Oct 23 10:16:14 2013 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 10:16:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Message-ID: Joe, The cost of pressure testing has as much to do with multi-point measuring and analysis of distortion as it does with just seeing if the vessel can survive a given depth intact. There is a depth [above crush depth] at which the vessel undergoes enough stress that one cycle or repeated cycles can compromise the vessel even though it might not appear to have suffered. Vance and others can speak a lot more to that than I can. Jim In a message dated 10/23/2013 8:46:44 A.M. Central Daylight Time, josephperkel at yahoo.com writes: Wow that's a bit rough for a working man! So much for that. I must say though, that I don't like much the lower the sub to the bottom and hope it comes back method of deep testing. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad ____________________________________ From: Alec Smyth ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Sent: Wed, Oct 23, 2013 12:52:33 PM Hi Hank, I asked at Carderock over a decade ago and was told the cost would depend on setup time, which varies depending on how much instrumentation you want during the test, but that a typical figure was around $27K. Waaaay beyond my budget. Dale Heinzing tested Snoopy somewhere on the West side of Canada at a lumber yard. Snoopy went in the tank alongside the lumber and must have been pretty well disinfected, but the scary bit was that they released the pressure almost instantaneously, with a bang. That test was to only 400' so not really sufficient for a Nekton, but it might still be of interest since I think it's relatively close to you and probably was inexpensive. Best, Alec On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Joe Perkel <_josephperkel at yahoo.com_ (javascript:return) > wrote: Hank, There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. Go to the WHOI website for info Joe From: hank pronk <_hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca_ (javascript:return) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West. Hank From: Phil Nuytten <_phil at philnuytten.com_ (javascript:return) > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) > Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hi, Hugh As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that? s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. Phil From: _vbra676539 at aol.com_ (javascript:return) Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM To: _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Fulton <_hc.fulton at gmail.com_ (javascript:return) > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) > Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance, Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [_mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?_ (javascript:return) ] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" <_hc.fulton at gmail.com_ (javascript:return) > wrote: Vance, I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on. I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [_mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) ] On Behalf Of _vbra676539 at aol.com_ (javascript:return) Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. To: _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub <_JimToddPsub at aol.com_ (javascript:return) > To: personal_submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) > Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516. I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, _vbra676539 at aol.com_ (javascript:return) writes: Jim, A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub <_JimToddPsub at aol.com_ (javascript:return) > To: personal_submersibles <_personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) > Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Greg, I should have clarified that. It was a cut-and-paste from a web site. I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises. That was the case in this instance. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, _jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com_ (javascript:return) writes: Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. Greg From: "_JimToddPsub at aol.com_ (javascript:return) " <_JimToddPsub at aol.com_ (javascript:return) > To: _personal_submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% Phosphorous 0.035% max Sulphur 0.035% max Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, _jonw at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) writes: Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. Jon On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: Hello, What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. Thanks, Chris Christopher Cave _christophercave at yahoo.com_ (javascript:return) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list _Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org_ (javascript:return) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Wed Oct 23 12:04:47 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 17:04:47 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue Message-ID: Hi All, Anyone got any thoughts on this. My OTS surface station mounted inside the sub didnt work. It didnt even switch on. I checked the Vout at the batteries (16x AAA inside the unit) and it was good at 12V. I suspect the problem is that i cut the transducer cable to pass it through a sub conn bulkhead connector. When you plus the transducer into the unit, that is supposed to turn it on at the same time, but nothing. Suspect no signal from the transducer so unit not switching on. You can see the rubbish effort i made of it here. Im almost sure this is the fault. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page22133.htm Anyone got any ideas? I need to get this fixed before the nest dive. Thanks James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Wed Oct 23 12:16:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 23 Oct 2013 16:16 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1VZ18F-3YhfjE0@fwd22.t-online.de> Look for a company which impregnate wood under pressure. The pressure boiler have the right size and the pressure is good for around 300 feet. Normaly they are relative unexpensive - around 500 USD. Some of them are good for 500 feet. We did it here in the past and today - works. But all meassuring and sensors up to yourself. Nothing you can use official. http://www.petermueller.be/joinery-impregnation/impregnation/# http://cdn.agrarverlag.at/to/mmedia/image//2013.04.22/1366647313692_1.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Industrial_Autoclaves.jpg Or looking around for industrial autoclaves. Glas companies have them in that size to make saftey glases And Aircraft companies working with grp/crp technic. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Autoclave_Laminacion_de_Vidrio.jpg Or buy you own, make the test and sale it again with a big win.. ;-) http://www.thermalequipment.com/used-inv2.html A profesional chamber for dive equipment in Scotland ask f or a simple pressure test witth not so much sensors around 9 K USD. And there are 3000 feet are no problem. I ask our navy for there Submarine pressure dock some 20 years ago Answer was 70.000 USD for the test and additional the same amount for the dock insurance company.. http://file1.npage.de/006622/23/bilder/715_dockc_04.jpg http://file1.npage.de/006622/23/bilder/715_dockc_02.jpg http://file1.npage.de/006622/23/bilder/715_dockc_03.jpg http://file1.npage.de/006622/23/bilder/715_dockc_01.jpg vbr Carsten schrieb: Joe, The cost of pressure testing has as much to do with multi-point measuring and analysis of distortion as it does with just seeing if the vessel can survive a given depth intact. There is a depth [above crush depth] at which the vessel undergoes enough stress that one cycle or repeated cycles can compromise the vessel even though it might not appear to have suffered. Vance and others can speak a lot more to that than I can. Jim In a message dated 10/23/2013 8:46:44 A.M. Central Daylight Time, josephperkel at yahoo.com writes: Wow that's a bit rough for a working man! So much for that. I must say though, that I don't like much the lower the sub to the bottom and hope it comes back method of deep testing. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Alec Smyth ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Sent: Wed, Oct 23, 2013 12:52:33 PM Hi Hank, I asked at Carderock over a decade ago and was told the cost would depend on setup time, which varies depending on how much instrumentation you want during the test, but that a typical figure was around $27K. Waaaay beyond my budget. Dale Heinzing tested Snoopy somewhere on the West side of Canada at a lumber yard. Snoopy went in the tank alongside the lumber and must have been pretty well disinfected, but the scary bit was that they released the pressure almost instantaneously, with a bang. That test was to only 400' so not really sufficient for a Nekton, but it might still be of interest since I think it's relatively close to you and probably was inexpensive. Best, Alec On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Hank, There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. Go to the WHOI website for info Joe From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West. Hank From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hi, Hugh As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld  err, actually, thats an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. Phil From: vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Fulton To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance, Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Vance, I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I dont know what on. I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516. I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: Jim, A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Greg, I should have clarified that. It was a cut-and-paste from a web site. I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises. That was the case in this instance. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. Greg From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% Phosphorous 0.035% max Sulphur 0.035% max Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. Jon On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: Hello, What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. Thanks, Chris Christopher Cave christophercave at yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Wed Oct 23 12:31:42 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 17:31:42 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: <1VZ18F-3YhfjE0@fwd22.t-online.de> References: <1VZ18F-3YhfjE0@fwd22.t-online.de> Message-ID: That Navy chamber is unbelievable! Maybe we could all club together and stick all our psubs in at the same time! On 23 October 2013 17:16, wrote: > ** > Look for a company which impregnate wood under pressure. > The pressure boiler have the right size and the pressure is good for > around 300 feet. > Normaly they are relative unexpensive - around 500 USD. Some of them are > good for 500 feet. > We did it here in the past and today - works. But all meassuring and > sensors up to yourself. > Nothing you can use official. > > http://www.petermueller.be/joinery-impregnation/impregnation/# > http://cdn.agrarverlag.at/to/mmedia/image//2013.04.22/1366647313692_1.jpg > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Industrial_Autoclaves.jpg > > Or looking around for *industrial autoclaves. > *Glas companies have them in that size to make saftey glases > And Aircraft companies working with grp/crp technic. > > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Autoclave_Laminacion_de_Vidrio.jpg > > Or buy you own, make the test and sale it again with a big win.. ;-) > http://www.thermalequipment.com/used-inv2.html > > A profesional chamber for dive equipment in Scotland > ask f or a simple pressure test witth not so much sensors around 9 K USD. > And there are 3000 feet are no problem. > > I ask our navy for there Submarine pressure dock some 20 years ago > Answer was 70.000 USD for the test and additional the same amount for the > dock insurance company.. > > http://file1.npage.de/006622/23/bilder/715_dockc_04.jpg > http://file1.npage.de/006622/23/bilder/715_dockc_02.jpg > http://file1.npage.de/006622/23/bilder/715_dockc_03.jpg > http://file1.npage.de/006622/23/bilder/715_dockc_01.jpg > > vbr Carsten > > > schrieb: > > Joe, > The cost of pressure testing has as much to do with multi-point measuring > and analysis of distortion as it does with just seeing if the vessel can > survive a given depth intact. There is a depth [above crush depth] at > which the vessel undergoes enough stress that one cycle or repeated cycles > can compromise the vessel even though it might not appear to have > suffered. Vance and others can speak a lot more to that than I can. > Jim > > In a message dated 10/23/2013 8:46:44 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > josephperkel at yahoo.com writes: > > Wow that's a bit rough for a working man! So much for that. > > I must say though, that I don't like much the lower the sub to the bottom > and hope it comes back method of deep testing. > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > ------------------------------ > *From: *Alec Smyth ; > *To: *Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; > *Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test > *Sent: *Wed, Oct 23, 2013 12:52:33 PM > > Hi Hank, > > I asked at Carderock over a decade ago and was told the cost would depend > on setup time, which varies depending on how much instrumentation you want > during the test, but that a typical figure was around $27K. Waaaay beyond > my budget. Dale Heinzing tested Snoopy somewhere on the West side of Canada > at a lumber yard. Snoopy went in the tank alongside the lumber and must > have been pretty well disinfected, but the scary bit was that they released > the pressure almost instantaneously, with a bang. That test was to only > 400' so not really sufficient for a Nekton, but it might still be of > interest since I think it's relatively close to you and probably was > inexpensive. > > > Best, > > Alec > > > On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >> Hank, >> >> There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" >> limit if I recall correctly. >> The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. >> >> A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. >> Go to the WHOI website for info >> >> >> Joe >> >> *From:* hank pronk >> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test >> >> Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test my >> Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West. >> Hank >> >> *From:* Phil Nuytten >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >> >> Hi, Hugh >> As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld err, actually, that s >> an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a >> whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go >> this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. >> Phil >> >> *From:* vbra676539 at aol.com >> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM >> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >> >> I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, >> of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the >> pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. >> Vance >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Hugh Fulton >> To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >> >> Vance, Yep that sounds about right. >> Are there any nasties to using it? >> Chs Hugh >> >> >> >> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [ >> mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] *On Behalf Of *Vance >> Bradley >> *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >> >> Hugh, >> HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% >> depth increase. >> Vance >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: >> >> Vance, I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but >> I don t know what on. I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using >> the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. >> Hugh >> >> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [ >> mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of * >> vbra676539 at aol.com >> *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. >> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >> >> One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the >> DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, >> he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. >> Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with >> welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. >> Vance >> -----Original Message----- >> From: JimToddPsub >> To: personal_submersibles >> Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >> Vance, >> From Leeco Steel's website: >> >> A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater >> yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. *A537 >> steel plate* is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is >> used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. >> >> Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516. I'm sure >> there are more variables to consider including cost. >> >> Jim >> >> In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >> vbra676539 at aol.com writes: >> >> Jim, >> A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that >> Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told >> that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better >> cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on >> this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which >> I suspect he is). >> Vance >> -----Original Message----- >> From: JimToddPsub >> To: personal_submersibles >> Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >> Greg, >> I should have clarified that. It was a cut-and-paste from a web site. >> I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I >> come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises. That >> was the case in this instance. >> Jim >> >> In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >> jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: >> >> Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the >> group that is also in the steel industry. >> >> Greg >> >> *From:* "JimToddPsub at aol.com" >> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >> >> Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: >> >> ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades >> in market . >> >> It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch >> toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley >> Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of >> tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of >> the specifications popularity. >> >> For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates >> supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. >> >> For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME >> standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): >> >> Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% >> Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% >> Phosphorous 0.035% max >> Sulphur 0.035% max >> Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% >> >> In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, >> jonw at psubs.org writes: >> >> >> Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. >> >> Jon >> >> >> On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned >> marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can >> review. >> >> Thanks, >> Chris >> >> *Christopher Cave >> * >> *christophercave at yahoo.com* >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing >> list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing >> list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing >> list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com/ >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com/ >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -- > > Carsten Standfu? > Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik > Heinrich Reck Str.12A > 18211 Admannshagen > > 0172 8464 420 > WWW.Euronaut.org > Carsten at euronaut.org > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emile at airesearch.nl Wed Oct 23 12:33:43 2013 From: emile at airesearch.nl (Emile van Essen) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 18:33:43 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: James, It usually gives no problem to cut a transducer cable and solder it again. Don't forget the shield. Obvious, the transducer must be in water and may not be in the shade of the sub. Got mine on top of the sail. Best place but works not on surface.. BTW; I am dealer of Ocean Reef UW Communication ; This brand share the same technology as OTS so you can talk between the 2 brands..) Best regards, Emile . _____ Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens James Frankland Verzonden: woensdag 23 oktober 2013 18:05 Aan: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue Hi All, Anyone got any thoughts on this. My OTS surface station mounted inside the sub didnt work. It didnt even switch on. I checked the Vout at the batteries (16x AAA inside the unit) and it was good at 12V. I suspect the problem is that i cut the transducer cable to pass it through a sub conn bulkhead connector. When you plus the transducer into the unit, that is supposed to turn it on at the same time, but nothing. Suspect no signal from the transducer so unit not switching on. You can see the rubbish effort i made of it here. Im almost sure this is the fault. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page22133.htm Anyone got any ideas? I need to get this fixed before the nest dive. Thanks James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewbecker1 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 23 12:48:51 2013 From: matthewbecker1 at yahoo.com (Matt Becker) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 09:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie with no background whatsoever Message-ID: <1382546931.91896.YahooMailNeo@web162705.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> So building a submarine has always been one of my dreams.? I am a Physical Therapist and not an engineer so there is a lot that I need to learn and I am perfectly willing to put in my time.? My goal is to start with a ROV and go from there.? Can anyone give me an idea of a place to start?? I have background in physics, chem, some engine work, and welding.? I am starting to learn electronics and thinking of using arduino or rasperry Pi as the circuit board to start.? I am looking for some guidance on where to start.? What?should I focus most of my efforts on?? Are there any books that you can recommend to get me going in the right direction.? I have come to find that?there are some resources but not a lot.?So any assistance would be appreciated. Thank you. Matt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Wed Oct 23 12:55:45 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 11:55:45 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie with no background whatsoever Message-ID: Matt,? Where do you live? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneMatt Becker wrote:So building a submarine has always been one of my dreams.? I am a Physical Therapist and not an engineer so there is a lot that I need to learn and I am perfectly willing to put in my time.? My goal is to start with a ROV and go from there.? Can anyone give me an idea of a place to start?? I have background in physics, chem, some engine work, and welding.? I am starting to learn electronics and thinking of using arduino or rasperry Pi as the circuit board to start.? I am looking for some guidance on where to start.? What?should I focus most of my efforts on?? Are there any books that you can recommend to get me going in the right direction.? I have come to find that?there are some resources but not a lot.?So any assistance would be appreciated. Thank you. Matt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewbecker1 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 23 12:59:55 2013 From: matthewbecker1 at yahoo.com (Matt) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 09:59:55 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie with no background whatsoever In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DC716F3-72CC-47BC-B776-9B2DD3199305@yahoo.com> Medford oregon Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 23, 2013, at 9:55 AM, swaters wrote: > > Matt, > Where do you live? > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > Matt Becker wrote: > So building a submarine has always been one of my dreams. I am a Physical Therapist and not an engineer so there is a lot that I need to learn and I am perfectly willing to put in my time. My goal is to start with a ROV and go from there. Can anyone give me an idea of a place to start? I have background in physics, chem, some engine work, and welding. I am starting to learn electronics and thinking of using arduino or rasperry Pi as the circuit board to start. I am looking for some guidance on where to start. What should I focus most of my efforts on? Are there any books that you can recommend to get me going in the right direction. I have come to find that there are some resources but not a lot. So any assistance would be appreciated. > Thank you. > Matt > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Alec.Smyth at covisint.com Wed Oct 23 13:14:55 2013 From: Alec.Smyth at covisint.com (Smyth, Alec) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 17:14:55 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <611fbeb98f2c4a42932080f74c0db4db@DM2PR05MB494.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Hi James, OTS have done something clever. The OTS transducer has only two contacts, but the when you use the factory cable for mounting the transducer remotely you will notice the cable connector has three contacts. What they are doing is using two of them (#1 and #3) connected together to act as a switch, so that when you plug in the cable the OTS box turns on. I think if you keep your current arrangement, but also connect contacts 1 and 3, you might find it works. Best, Alec From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Emile van Essen Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 12:34 PM To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue James, It usually gives no problem to cut a transducer cable and solder it again. Don't forget the shield. Obvious, the transducer must be in water and may not be in the shade of the sub. Got mine on top of the sail. Best place but works not on surface.. BTW; I am dealer of Ocean Reef UW Communication ; This brand share the same technology as OTS so you can talk between the 2 brands..) Best regards, Emile . ________________________________ Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens James Frankland Verzonden: woensdag 23 oktober 2013 18:05 Aan: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue Hi All, Anyone got any thoughts on this. My OTS surface station mounted inside the sub didnt work. It didnt even switch on. I checked the Vout at the batteries (16x AAA inside the unit) and it was good at 12V. I suspect the problem is that i cut the transducer cable to pass it through a sub conn bulkhead connector. When you plus the transducer into the unit, that is supposed to turn it on at the same time, but nothing. Suspect no signal from the transducer so unit not switching on. You can see the rubbish effort i made of it here. Im almost sure this is the fault. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page22133.htm Anyone got any ideas? I need to get this fixed before the nest dive. Thanks James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Wed Oct 23 13:15:30 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 12:15:30 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie with no background whatsoever Message-ID: Darn. I don't know many psubbers in that area. You are always welcome to make the boring trip to Kansas and I can show you everything I know. I have always found seeing in person is worth miles more than e-mails. That is part of the huge value of the psuba conferences. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneMatt wrote:Medford oregon Sent from my iPhone On Oct 23, 2013, at 9:55 AM, swaters wrote: Matt,? Where do you live? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Matt Becker wrote: So building a submarine has always been one of my dreams.? I am a Physical Therapist and not an engineer so there is a lot that I need to learn and I am perfectly willing to put in my time.? My goal is to start with a ROV and go from there.? Can anyone give me an idea of a place to start?? I have background in physics, chem, some engine work, and welding.? I am starting to learn electronics and thinking of using arduino or rasperry Pi as the circuit board to start.? I am looking for some guidance on where to start.? What?should I focus most of my efforts on?? Are there any books that you can recommend to get me going in the right direction.? I have come to find that?there are some resources but not a lot.?So any assistance would be appreciated. Thank you. Matt _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewbecker1 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 23 13:43:05 2013 From: matthewbecker1 at yahoo.com (Matt) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 10:43:05 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie with no background whatsoever In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28742CF9-111B-4EF3-9A13-CFFB5EDB53B9@yahoo.com> Scott, I appreciate the offer, and I agree that face to face is much much better, but the 1500 mile drive is a bit far. If I ever end up in that neck of the woods though I will gladly look you up. Where and when are the psuba conferences? Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 23, 2013, at 10:15 AM, swaters wrote: > > Darn. I don't know many psubbers in that area. You are always welcome to make the boring trip to Kansas and I can show you everything I know. I have always found seeing in person is worth miles more than e-mails. That is part of the huge value of the psuba conferences. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > > Matt wrote: > Medford oregon > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 23, 2013, at 9:55 AM, swaters wrote: >> >> Matt, >> Where do you live? >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> >> Matt Becker wrote: >> So building a submarine has always been one of my dreams. I am a Physical Therapist and not an engineer so there is a lot that I need to learn and I am perfectly willing to put in my time. My goal is to start with a ROV and go from there. Can anyone give me an idea of a place to start? I have background in physics, chem, some engine work, and welding. I am starting to learn electronics and thinking of using arduino or rasperry Pi as the circuit board to start. I am looking for some guidance on where to start. What should I focus most of my efforts on? Are there any books that you can recommend to get me going in the right direction. I have come to find that there are some resources but not a lot. So any assistance would be appreciated. >> Thank you. >> Matt >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Wed Oct 23 14:13:05 2013 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 08:13:05 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch In-Reply-To: References: <1VYhqJ-1v66JE0@fwd10.t-online.de> Message-ID: I haven?t attached my pods yet to the pressure hull and after hearing about the aft positive buoyancy issue from a number of K-350 owner/builders I am now contemplating moving my pods aft one frame. I have all ready installed my drop weight threw hulls so I would have to extend the cross bar forward that goes between the pods for that plus not having any engineering experience, it would purely be a guess on what it would do to the trim. I doubt it would have the reverse effect and transfer the buoyancy problem to the front but not sure. One thought I had was to bolt them on per plans but be able to adjust them aft as needed to attain the proper trim and then when I find the magic spot, weld in the bell reducers I have and connect the power cables. Any thoughts out their pro or con? Rick From: James Frankland Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 2:17 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch What im going to do is fix 100Kg under the aft tank, and then make the rest in blocks that can be moved around. Then divers can place them with straps to the underside somewhere until its balanced. Will make the blocks at the weekend. On 22 October 2013 20:41, wrote: Hi James congratulations, - seems more and more that to light is a normal standard on launching Psubs. May do not install fix weight in the stern next time. Install it lose in the center and than trim it longitudinal on dive station with move it forward or aftward or more in or out. Its the fastest way to figure out the right weight and trim. By the way Alan our overalls are red, and it help the skipper to figure out which guy is in his crew and which not.. Also the guys with the brighter (many times washed out) overalls are the workers in the crew.. http://www.hansesail.com/uploads/tx_gorillary/2013_38_euronauttauchtauf_01.jpg :-) vbr Carsten "Alan" schrieb: Congratulations James, Look forward to the coming videos. What a pain having to cut things short after all that effort. Maybe you cold buy everyone a set of orange overalls like Carsten does, to make things look professional. Alan Sent from my iPad On 22/10/2013, at 10:06 PM, James Frankland wrote: Hi All, I got my boat in the water at the weekend for the first time. Put the pictures up here. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/operations.htm I didnt get any leaks at all, so i was super happy. I wasnt really expecting to try and dive and would have been happy with just no leaks and a float test, but everything worked fine, so i gave it a go. Unfortunately i didnt have enough lead. I added 90KG (198lb) of lead, but it still wouldnt go down. What i didnt mention on the website was that i was forced to stop testing because the harbour master came along to say that they had had an anonymous phone call from some bloody do-gooder who pointed out that we were using the comercial area of the harbour and didnt have a proper comercial dive team, which is officially a legal requirement. So even though i had full permission from the harbour, i was forced to stop on a technicality. They think it was some missery that has the hump on with harbour and just wanted to be awkward. Shame because I was about to load a pile of anchor chain into the boat to get me more weight. The boat did seem to be very light at the back and i kept squirting air into the forward tank to level it out. Thinking about it, i suspect that the forward tank was settling into the correct position and it was the aft tank that was riding high. Just need to get some weight at the back. I had a slight list to port as well which i've no idea where that came from. Again i will trim that up. Anyway, i was really pleased with how it went on my first day. Im meeting my divers tonight who took a load of underwater pics apparently, so i will see how they look later. Might put some on the web if they are any good. Kind Regards James _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Wed Oct 23 14:17:24 2013 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 11:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie with no background whatsoever In-Reply-To: <1382546931.91896.YahooMailNeo@web162705.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382552244.77478.YahooMailBasic@web140901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> You've found your best resource. There are some good introductory books you can start studying...one is "Manned Submersibles" by Frank Busby which you can order through the website but it is also available online. The busby server does go down occasionally but if you let me know I can usually start it back up within minutes. Dan Lance can name off the other book that he recommends as required reading (I just can't recall the name of it right now). Once you get your feet wet, Stachiw's Handbook of Acrylic is also a very good book and should be considered a requirement. At some point you are going to need to translate your dream into reality, meaning drawings, calculations, etc. This group is an excellent resource to bounce those ideas off. Jon -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 10/23/13, Matt Becker wrote: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie with no background whatsoever To: "Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org" Date: Wednesday, October 23, 2013, 12:48 PM So building a submarine has always been one of my dreams.? I am a Physical Therapist and not an engineer so there is a lot that I need to learn and I am perfectly willing to put in my time.? My goal is to start with a ROV and go from there.? Can anyone give me an idea of a place to start?? I have background in physics, chem, some engine work, and welding.? I am starting to learn electronics and thinking of using arduino or rasperry Pi as the circuit board to start.? I am looking for some guidance on where to start.? What?should I focus most of my efforts on?? Are there any books that you can recommend to get me going in the right direction.? I have come to find that?there are some resources but not a lot.?So any assistance would be appreciated. Thank you. Matt -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Oct 23 15:02:45 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1382554965.26877.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Rick,

I have an accurate CAD model of a stock 350 hull and pods with assigned material densities. The software can make short work of determining changes in the longitudinal CG and what effects shifting the pods have. We would have to agree on a vertical datum, say the surface Edge of a hemihead for example.

As it lays now, the CG is right under the pilots butt, but it looks like George did not account accurately for the changes in buoyancy once launched. The trick would be trying to guess how far back to shift the CG. I can do this for you on my next group of days off if you'd like.

However, I like James idea of external movable weights as a better solution because you still have this 400 lb light condition to contend with anyway.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Wed Oct 23 15:10:59 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 14:10:59 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie with no background whatsoever Message-ID: <76sgu8hsgddsx2xoqcpkkhnn.1382555284742@email.android.com> That last psub conference was in the Florida Keys earlier this month. We normally have it in the summer. Next years hasn't been set yet. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneMatt wrote:Scott, I appreciate the offer, and I agree that face to face is much much better, but the 1500 mile drive is a bit far. If I ever end up in that neck of the woods though I will gladly look you up. ?Where and when are the psuba conferences? Sent from my iPhone On Oct 23, 2013, at 10:15 AM, swaters wrote: Darn. I don't know many psubbers in that area. You are always welcome to make the boring trip to Kansas and I can show you everything I know. I have always found seeing in person is worth miles more than e-mails. That is part of the huge value of the psuba conferences. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Matt wrote: Medford oregon Sent from my iPhone On Oct 23, 2013, at 9:55 AM, swaters wrote: Matt,? Where do you live? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Matt Becker wrote: So building a submarine has always been one of my dreams.? I am a Physical Therapist and not an engineer so there is a lot that I need to learn and I am perfectly willing to put in my time.? My goal is to start with a ROV and go from there.? Can anyone give me an idea of a place to start?? I have background in physics, chem, some engine work, and welding.? I am starting to learn electronics and thinking of using arduino or rasperry Pi as the circuit board to start.? I am looking for some guidance on where to start.? What?should I focus most of my efforts on?? Are there any books that you can recommend to get me going in the right direction.? I have come to find that?there are some resources but not a lot.?So any assistance would be appreciated. Thank you. Matt _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hc.fulton at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 15:21:49 2013 From: hc.fulton at gmail.com (Hugh Fulton) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 08:21:49 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull In-Reply-To: <2e384d69-36a8-485a-be22-599b01fbb063@email.android.com> References: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> <52671495.6a8a420a.25a3.ffff96e5@mx.google.com> <9A717C1F-0CD4-4457-9B5B-E29C4D61383B@AOL.com> <5267312a.63b9440a.2225.3acb@mx.google.com> <8D09DAD42DC444C-1884-3D49F@webmail-m232.sysops.aol.com> <2e384d69-36a8-485a-be22-599b01fbb063@email.android.com> Message-ID: <526821d3.68f2440a.6682.5616@mx.google.com> Hi Phil, Thanks for that. I would think that the benefits would outway the cost increase. I am fighting weight and balance all the way. Chs Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of cast55 at telus.net Sent: Thursday, 24 October 2013 3:01 a.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull What were the specific challenges that you had to overcome to properly weld HY-80? Sean Phil Nuytten wrote: Hi, Hugh As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. Phil From: vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Fulton To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance, Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Vance, I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on. I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8954 (20131023) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 23 15:25:55 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 12:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: References: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> <52671495.6a8a420a.25a3.ffff96e5@mx.google.com> <9A717C1F-0CD4-4457-9B5B-E29C4D61383B@AOL.com> <5267312a.63b9440a.2225.3acb@mx.google.com> <8D09DAD42DC444C-1884-3D49F@webmail-m232.sysops.aol.com> <1382530207.7939.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382531589.7964.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382556355.63319.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Alec, Yes Snoopy had quite a time in the pressure chamber, Dale told me all about it, pretty freaky.? We have a local wood preserver here but the people are friends with the guy that complained about James not having commercial divers.? :-)? Also they are only good for about 400 feet or so.? ? I have sent an e mail to Nutco? for information.? I can test it to 1,000 feet in Slocan lake but that involves trucking my barge out and the sub.? That is not so bad but I will be finished by x mas and the roads to get there are brutal in the winter.? I would rather go to Vancouver in my pickup with the sub.?? Joe,? I will lower my sub on a steel wire cable in Slocan Lake if I can not find a chamber.? I normally just let them go and pull a small rope to release air into the ballast tanks.? Gamma cost way to much for that :-)? I will also have a timer inside to release air. Hank From: Alec Smyth To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:52:33 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hi Hank, I asked at Carderock over a decade ago and was told the cost would depend on setup time, which varies depending on how much instrumentation you want during the test, but that a typical figure was around $27K. Waaaay beyond my budget. Dale Heinzing tested Snoopy somewhere on the West side of Canada at a lumber yard. Snoopy went in the tank alongside the lumber and must have been pretty well disinfected, but the scary bit was that they released the pressure almost instantaneously, with a bang. That test was ?to only 400' so not really sufficient for a Nekton, but it might still be of interest since I think it's relatively close to you and probably was inexpensive. Best, Alec? On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Hank, >? >There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. >The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. >? >A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. >Go to the WHOI website for info >? >? >Joe > > >From: hank pronk > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test > > > >Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test? my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West.? >Hank > > >From: Phil Nuytten >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > > >Hi, Hugh >As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. >Phil? >From: vbra676539 at aol.com >Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. >Vance >-----Original Message----- >From: Hugh Fulton >To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' >Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > >Vance,? Yep that sounds about right. >Are there any nasties to using it? >Chs Hugh >? >? >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley >Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > >Hugh, >HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: >Vance,? I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on.? I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. >>Hugh >>? >>From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com >>Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. >>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >> >>One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. >>Vance >>-----Original Message----- >>From: JimToddPsub >>To: personal_submersibles >>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>Vance, >>>From Leeco Steel's website: >>? >>A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. >>? >>Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516.? I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. >>? >>Jim >>? >>In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: >>Jim, >>>A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). >>>Vance >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: JimToddPsub >>>To: personal_submersibles >>>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>Greg, >>>I should have clarified that.? It was a cut-and-paste from a web site.? I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises.? That was the case in this instance. >>>Jim >>>? >>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: >>>Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. >>>>? >>>>Greg >>>>? >>>>From:"JimToddPsub at aol.com" >>>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM >>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>>? >>>>Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: >>>>? >>>>ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . >>>> >>>>It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. >>>> >>>>For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. >>>> >>>>For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): >>>> >>>>Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% >>>>Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% >>>>Phosphorous 0.035% max >>>>Sulphur 0.035% max >>>>Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% >>>>? >>>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: >>>> >>>>>Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. >>>>> >>>>>Jon >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: >>>>>Hello, >>>>>>? >>>>>>What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. >>>>>>? >>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>Chris >>>>>>? >>>>>>Christopher Cave >>>>>> >>>>>>christophercave at yahoo.com >>>>>>? >>>>>>? >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>? >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>? >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ >> >>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >>http://www.eset.com/ >> >> >>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ >> >>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >>http://www.eset.com/ >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 23 15:27:40 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 12:27:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie with no background whatsoever In-Reply-To: <4DC716F3-72CC-47BC-B776-9B2DD3199305@yahoo.com> References: <4DC716F3-72CC-47BC-B776-9B2DD3199305@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382556460.65469.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Matt, Hey your pretty close by Hank From: Matt To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 10:59:55 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie with no background whatsoever Medford oregon Sent from my iPhone On Oct 23, 2013, at 9:55 AM, swaters wrote: Matt,? Where do you live? Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone Matt Becker wrote: So building a submarine has always been one of my dreams.? I am a Physical Therapist and not an engineer so there is a lot that I need to learn and I am perfectly willing to put in my time.? My goal is to start with a ROV and go from there.? Can anyone give me an idea of a place to start?? I have background in physics, chem, some engine work, and welding.? I am starting to learn electronics and thinking of using arduino or rasperry Pi as the circuit board to start.? I am looking for some guidance on where to start.? What?should I focus most of my efforts on?? Are there any books that you can recommend to get me going in the right direction.? I have come to find that?there are some resources but not a lot.?So any assistance would be appreciated. Thank you. Matt _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Wed Oct 23 15:31:26 2013 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 09:31:26 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 trim issues In-Reply-To: <1382554965.26877.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382554965.26877.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5AF50FFD205546D3806E74A485B04A6D@LandNSeaPC> Hi Joe, My only concern with adding lead ingots to the stern to achieve a good trim is that I would be sacrificing freeboard once trimmed out I believe and that is a concern after hearing about the K-250 having that problem at the convention though my conn is a bit higher. Of course now that I think about it, I may have solved the trim problem without having to add extra weight but now will still be too buoyant to dive with all ballast tanks flooded? Rick From: Joe Perkel Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 9:02 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch Rick, I have an accurate CAD model of a stock 350 hull and pods with assigned material densities. The software can make short work of determining changes in the longitudinal CG and what effects shifting the pods have. We would have to agree on a vertical datum, say the surface Edge of a hemihead for example. As it lays now, the CG is right under the pilots butt, but it looks like George did not account accurately for the changes in buoyancy once launched. The trick would be trying to guess how far back to shift the CG. I can do this for you on my next group of days off if you'd like. However, I like James idea of external movable weights as a better solution because you still have this 400 lb light condition to contend with anyway. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Land N Sea ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch Sent: Wed, Oct 23, 2013 6:13:05 PM I haven?t attached my pods yet to the pressure hull and after hearing about the aft positive buoyancy issue from a number of K-350 owner/builders I am now contemplating moving my pods aft one frame. I have all ready installed my drop weight threw hulls so I would have to extend the cross bar forward that goes between the pods for that plus not having any engineering experience, it would purely be a guess on what it would do to the trim. I doubt it would have the reverse effect and transfer the buoyancy problem to the front but not sure. One thought I had was to bolt them on per plans but be able to adjust them aft as needed to attain the proper trim and then when I find the magic spot, weld in the bell reducers I have and connect the power cables. Any thoughts out their pro or con? Rick From: James Frankland Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 2:17 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch What im going to do is fix 100Kg under the aft tank, and then make the rest in blocks that can be moved around. Then divers can place them with straps to the underside somewhere until its balanced. Will make the blocks at the weekend. On 22 October 2013 20:41, wrote: Hi James congratulations, - seems more and more that to light is a normal standard on launching Psubs. May do not install fix weight in the stern next time. Install it lose in the center and than trim it longitudinal on dive station with move it forward or aftward or more in or out. Its the fastest way to figure out the right weight and trim. By the way Alan our overalls are red, and it help the skipper to figure out which guy is in his crew and which not.. Also the guys with the brighter (many times washed out) overalls are the workers in the crew.. http://www.hansesail.com/uploads/tx_gorillary/2013_38_euronauttauchtauf_01.jpg :-) vbr Carsten "Alan" schrieb: Congratulations James, Look forward to the coming videos. What a pain having to cut things short after all that effort. Maybe you cold buy everyone a set of orange overalls like Carsten does, to make things look professional. Alan Sent from my iPad On 22/10/2013, at 10:06 PM, James Frankland wrote: Hi All, I got my boat in the water at the weekend for the first time. Put the pictures up here. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/operations.htm I didnt get any leaks at all, so i was super happy. I wasnt really expecting to try and dive and would have been happy with just no leaks and a float test, but everything worked fine, so i gave it a go. Unfortunately i didnt have enough lead. I added 90KG (198lb) of lead, but it still wouldnt go down. What i didnt mention on the website was that i was forced to stop testing because the harbour master came along to say that they had had an anonymous phone call from some bloody do-gooder who pointed out that we were using the comercial area of the harbour and didnt have a proper comercial dive team, which is officially a legal requirement. So even though i had full permission from the harbour, i was forced to stop on a technicality. They think it was some missery that has the hump on with harbour and just wanted to be awkward. Shame because I was about to load a pile of anchor chain into the boat to get me more weight. The boat did seem to be very light at the back and i kept squirting air into the forward tank to level it out. Thinking about it, i suspect that the forward tank was settling into the correct position and it was the aft tank that was riding high. Just need to get some weight at the back. I had a slight list to port as well which i've no idea where that came from. Again i will trim that up. Anyway, i was really pleased with how it went on my first day. Im meeting my divers tonight who took a load of underwater pics apparently, so i will see how they look later. Might put some on the web if they are any good. Kind Regards James _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 23 15:49:59 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 12:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: <1382531589.7964.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> <52671495.6a8a420a.25a3.ffff96e5@mx.google.com> <9A717C1F-0CD4-4457-9B5B-E29C4D61383B@AOL.com> <5267312a.63b9440a.2225.3acb@mx.google.com> <8D09DAD42DC444C-1884-3D49F@webmail-m232.sysops.aol.com> <1382530207.7939.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382531589.7964.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382557799.35584.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks' Joe I sent them a request for information, I fear that my grade 11 English skills make people not take me seriously.? :-) Hank From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:33:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, ? There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. ? A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. Go to the WHOI website for info ? ? Joe From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test? my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West.? Hank From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hi, Hugh As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. Phil? From: vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Fulton To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance,? Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh ? ? ? From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Vance,? I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on.? I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. >Hugh >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com >Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > >One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. >Vance >-----Original Message----- >From: JimToddPsub >To: personal_submersibles >Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: >? >A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. >? >Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516.? I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. >? >Jim >? >In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: >Jim, >>A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). >>Vance >>-----Original Message----- >>From: JimToddPsub >>To: personal_submersibles >>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>Greg, >>I should have clarified that.? It was a cut-and-paste from a web site.? I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises.? That was the case in this instance. >>Jim >>? >>In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: >>Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. >>>? >>>Greg >>>? >>>From:"JimToddPsub at aol.com" >>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>? >>>Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: >>>? >>>ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . >>> >>>It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. >>> >>>For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. >>> >>>For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): >>> >>>Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% >>>Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% >>>Phosphorous 0.035% max >>>Sulphur 0.035% max >>>Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% >>>? >>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: >>> >>>>Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. >>>> >>>>Jon >>>> >>>> >>>>On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: >>>>Hello, >>>>>? >>>>>What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. >>>>>? >>>>>Thanks, >>>>>Chris >>>>>? >>>>>Christopher Cave >>>>> >>>>>christophercave at yahoo.com >>>>>? >>>>>? >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ > > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 23 16:13:33 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 13:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: References: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> <52671495.6a8a420a.25a3.ffff96e5@mx.google.com> <9A717C1F-0CD4-4457-9B5B-E29C4D61383B@AOL.com> <5267312a.63b9440a.2225.3acb@mx.google.com> <8D09DAD42DC444C-1884-3D49F@webmail-m232.sysops.aol.com> <1382530207.7939.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382531589.7964.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382559213.56903.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thanks' but the 4 foot dia is to small, I need about 6 feet I would think if there is a chamber in Alberta it would be in Edmonton.? A lot of oil patch items are built in Edmonton. Hank From: "cast55 at telus.net" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 7:56:30 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test What are the dimensions? C-FER Technologies in Edmonton has a test chamber 4' diameter by 35' long. They proof test some of the AUV hulls for ISE there. Alec Smyth wrote: Hi Hank, > > >I asked at Carderock over a decade ago and was told the cost would depend on setup time, which varies depending on how much instrumentation you want during the test, but that a typical figure was around $27K. Waaaay beyond my budget. Dale Heinzing tested Snoopy somewhere on the West side of Canada at a lumber yard. Snoopy went in the tank alongside the lumber and must have been pretty well disinfected, but the scary bit was that they released the pressure almost instantaneously, with a bang. That test was ?to only 400' so not really sufficient for a Nekton, but it might still be of interest since I think it's relatively close to you and probably was inexpensive. > > > > >Best, > >Alec? > > > >On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >Hank, >>? >>There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. >>The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. >>? >>A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. >>Go to the WHOI website for info >>? >>? >>Joe >> >> >>From: hank pronk >> >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test >> >> >> >>Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test? my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West.? >>Hank >> >> >>From: Phil Nuytten < -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Oct 23 16:13:45 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 13:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie with no background whatsoever In-Reply-To: <1382546931.91896.YahooMailNeo@web162705.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382546931.91896.YahooMailNeo@web162705.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382559225.96518.YahooMailNeo@web141202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Welcome along Matt, I want to endorse what Jon said about Busby's Manned Submersibles. It really is the best starting point. I read it on line then bought a copy & are half way through it again. Just start reading it on line & you'll see what a wealth of knowledge it has. However don't be scared off by it as it is pretty thourough & some of the subs people build are not so complex. Also if you can get along to a conference & have a dive in one of these small submarines you'll be able to formulate ideas about what you want. You don't need to be able to weld, and a lot of people give the serious pressure hull welding to professionals.? Cheers Alan ________________________________ From: Matt Becker To: "Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 5:48 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie with no background whatsoever So building a submarine has always been one of my dreams.? I am a Physical Therapist and not an engineer so there is a lot that I need to learn and I am perfectly willing to put in my time.? My goal is to start with a ROV and go from there.? Can anyone give me an idea of a place to start?? I have background in physics, chem, some engine work, and welding.? I am starting to learn electronics and thinking of using arduino or rasperry Pi as the circuit board to start.? I am looking for some guidance on where to start.? What?should I focus most of my efforts on?? Are there any books that you can recommend to get me going in the right direction.? I have come to find that?there are some resources but not a lot.?So any assistance would be appreciated. Thank you. Matt _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Alec.Smyth at covisint.com Wed Oct 23 16:33:33 2013 From: Alec.Smyth at covisint.com (Smyth, Alec) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 20:33:33 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 trim issues In-Reply-To: <5AF50FFD205546D3806E74A485B04A6D@LandNSeaPC> References: <1382554965.26877.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5AF50FFD205546D3806E74A485B04A6D@LandNSeaPC> Message-ID: This is simple, it?s just two steps: 1) Add weights, most easily by just passing them down through the hatch, until you find the sub is neutral when MBTs are flooded. You?ll do a number of dives or attempted dives, adding or taking out weight. 2) Shift the weights forward or aft until the sub is level. Once you?ve determined how much weight and how far aft they go, you have the option of installing something externally. Best, Alec From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Land N Sea Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 3:31 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 trim issues Hi Joe, My only concern with adding lead ingots to the stern to achieve a good trim is that I would be sacrificing freeboard once trimmed out I believe and that is a concern after hearing about the K-250 having that problem at the convention though my conn is a bit higher. Of course now that I think about it, I may have solved the trim problem without having to add extra weight but now will still be too buoyant to dive with all ballast tanks flooded? Rick From: Joe Perkel Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 9:02 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch Rick, I have an accurate CAD model of a stock 350 hull and pods with assigned material densities. The software can make short work of determining changes in the longitudinal CG and what effects shifting the pods have. We would have to agree on a vertical datum, say the surface Edge of a hemihead for example. As it lays now, the CG is right under the pilots butt, but it looks like George did not account accurately for the changes in buoyancy once launched. The trick would be trying to guess how far back to shift the CG. I can do this for you on my next group of days off if you'd like. However, I like James idea of external movable weights as a better solution because you still have this 400 lb light condition to contend with anyway. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Land N Sea >; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch Sent: Wed, Oct 23, 2013 6:13:05 PM I haven?t attached my pods yet to the pressure hull and after hearing about the aft positive buoyancy issue from a number of K-350 owner/builders I am now contemplating moving my pods aft one frame. I have all ready installed my drop weight threw hulls so I would have to extend the cross bar forward that goes between the pods for that plus not having any engineering experience, it would purely be a guess on what it would do to the trim. I doubt it would have the reverse effect and transfer the buoyancy problem to the front but not sure. One thought I had was to bolt them on per plans but be able to adjust them aft as needed to attain the proper trim and then when I find the magic spot, weld in the bell reducers I have and connect the power cables. Any thoughts out their pro or con? Rick From: James Frankland Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 2:17 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch What im going to do is fix 100Kg under the aft tank, and then make the rest in blocks that can be moved around. Then divers can place them with straps to the underside somewhere until its balanced. Will make the blocks at the weekend. On 22 October 2013 20:41, > wrote: Hi James congratulations, - seems more and more that to light is a normal standard on launching Psubs. May do not install fix weight in the stern next time. Install it lose in the center and than trim it longitudinal on dive station with move it forward or aftward or more in or out. Its the fastest way to figure out the right weight and trim. By the way Alan our overalls are red, and it help the skipper to figure out which guy is in his crew and which not.. Also the guys with the brighter (many times washed out) overalls are the workers in the crew.. http://www.hansesail.com/uploads/tx_gorillary/2013_38_euronauttauchtauf_01.jpg :-) vbr Carsten "Alan" > schrieb: Congratulations James, Look forward to the coming videos. What a pain having to cut things short after all that effort. Maybe you cold buy everyone a set of orange overalls like Carsten does, to make things look professional. Alan Sent from my iPad On 22/10/2013, at 10:06 PM, James Frankland > wrote: Hi All, I got my boat in the water at the weekend for the first time. Put the pictures up here. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/operations.htm I didnt get any leaks at all, so i was super happy. I wasnt really expecting to try and dive and would have been happy with just no leaks and a float test, but everything worked fine, so i gave it a go. Unfortunately i didnt have enough lead. I added 90KG (198lb) of lead, but it still wouldnt go down. What i didnt mention on the website was that i was forced to stop testing because the harbour master came along to say that they had had an anonymous phone call from some bloody do-gooder who pointed out that we were using the comercial area of the harbour and didnt have a proper comercial dive team, which is officially a legal requirement. So even though i had full permission from the harbour, i was forced to stop on a technicality. They think it was some missery that has the hump on with harbour and just wanted to be awkward. Shame because I was about to load a pile of anchor chain into the boat to get me more weight. The boat did seem to be very light at the back and i kept squirting air into the forward tank to level it out. Thinking about it, i suspect that the forward tank was settling into the correct position and it was the aft tank that was riding high. Just need to get some weight at the back. I had a slight list to port as well which i've no idea where that came from. Again i will trim that up. Anyway, i was really pleased with how it went on my first day. Im meeting my divers tonight who took a load of underwater pics apparently, so i will see how they look later. Might put some on the web if they are any good. Kind Regards James _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JimToddPsub at aol.com Wed Oct 23 16:39:02 2013 From: JimToddPsub at aol.com (JimToddPsub at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 16:39:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie with no background whatsoever Message-ID: <92cc.7b36fde2.3f998de6@aol.com> Good afternoon, Matt, Welcome aboard. You really have a pretty good background particularly with the physics. Manned Submersibles by R. Frank Busby is considered the bible on the subject. The purple hardcover version is what you want and not one of the paperback reprints that lack the pictures and charts. Here's a link: http://www.amazon.com/Manned-submersibles-R-Frank-Busby/dp/B0006CRZRI/ref=sr _1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1382557994&sr=1-1&keywords=manned+submersibles Explore the Psubs.org web site. You'll find enough information and design tools to keep you busy and entertained for days. I would also highly encourage you to go to the Membership tab (far right on the home page) and join up. You then will have access to the Member Forum, the member directory, and can post a profile on your membership page. James Franklin's http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/ is one of the best I've seen on an individual project from beginning to launch. The launch was just about a week ago. Best wishes, Jim In a message dated 10/23/2013 11:49:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time, matthewbecker1 at yahoo.com writes: So building a submarine has always been one of my dreams. I am a Physical Therapist and not an engineer so there is a lot that I need to learn and I am perfectly willing to put in my time. My goal is to start with a ROV and go from there. Can anyone give me an idea of a place to start? I have background in physics, chem, some engine work, and welding. I am starting to learn electronics and thinking of using arduino or rasperry Pi as the circuit board to start. I am looking for some guidance on where to start. What should I focus most of my efforts on? Are there any books that you can recommend to get me going in the right direction. I have come to find that there are some resources but not a lot. So any assistance would be appreciated. Thank you. Matt _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Wed Oct 23 16:39:59 2013 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 10:39:59 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 trim issues In-Reply-To: References: <1382554965.26877.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5AF50FFD205546D3806E74A485B04A6D@LandNSeaPC> Message-ID: Makes sense Thanks Rick From: Smyth, Alec Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 10:33 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 trim issues This is simple, it?s just two steps: 1) Add weights, most easily by just passing them down through the hatch, until you find the sub is neutral when MBTs are flooded. You?ll do a number of dives or attempted dives, adding or taking out weight. 2) Shift the weights forward or aft until the sub is level. Once you?ve determined how much weight and how far aft they go, you have the option of installing something externally. Best, Alec From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Land N Sea Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 3:31 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 trim issues Hi Joe, My only concern with adding lead ingots to the stern to achieve a good trim is that I would be sacrificing freeboard once trimmed out I believe and that is a concern after hearing about the K-250 having that problem at the convention though my conn is a bit higher. Of course now that I think about it, I may have solved the trim problem without having to add extra weight but now will still be too buoyant to dive with all ballast tanks flooded? Rick From: Joe Perkel Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 9:02 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch Rick, I have an accurate CAD model of a stock 350 hull and pods with assigned material densities. The software can make short work of determining changes in the longitudinal CG and what effects shifting the pods have. We would have to agree on a vertical datum, say the surface Edge of a hemihead for example. As it lays now, the CG is right under the pilots butt, but it looks like George did not account accurately for the changes in buoyancy once launched. The trick would be trying to guess how far back to shift the CG. I can do this for you on my next group of days off if you'd like. However, I like James idea of external movable weights as a better solution because you still have this 400 lb light condition to contend with anyway. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Land N Sea ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch Sent: Wed, Oct 23, 2013 6:13:05 PM I haven?t attached my pods yet to the pressure hull and after hearing about the aft positive buoyancy issue from a number of K-350 owner/builders I am now contemplating moving my pods aft one frame. I have all ready installed my drop weight threw hulls so I would have to extend the cross bar forward that goes between the pods for that plus not having any engineering experience, it would purely be a guess on what it would do to the trim. I doubt it would have the reverse effect and transfer the buoyancy problem to the front but not sure. One thought I had was to bolt them on per plans but be able to adjust them aft as needed to attain the proper trim and then when I find the magic spot, weld in the bell reducers I have and connect the power cables. Any thoughts out their pro or con? Rick From: James Frankland Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 2:17 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch What im going to do is fix 100Kg under the aft tank, and then make the rest in blocks that can be moved around. Then divers can place them with straps to the underside somewhere until its balanced. Will make the blocks at the weekend. On 22 October 2013 20:41, wrote: Hi James congratulations, - seems more and more that to light is a normal standard on launching Psubs. May do not install fix weight in the stern next time. Install it lose in the center and than trim it longitudinal on dive station with move it forward or aftward or more in or out. Its the fastest way to figure out the right weight and trim. By the way Alan our overalls are red, and it help the skipper to figure out which guy is in his crew and which not.. Also the guys with the brighter (many times washed out) overalls are the workers in the crew.. http://www.hansesail.com/uploads/tx_gorillary/2013_38_euronauttauchtauf_01.jpg :-) vbr Carsten "Alan" schrieb: Congratulations James, Look forward to the coming videos. What a pain having to cut things short after all that effort. Maybe you cold buy everyone a set of orange overalls like Carsten does, to make things look professional. Alan Sent from my iPad On 22/10/2013, at 10:06 PM, James Frankland wrote: Hi All, I got my boat in the water at the weekend for the first time. Put the pictures up here. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/operations.htm I didnt get any leaks at all, so i was super happy. I wasnt really expecting to try and dive and would have been happy with just no leaks and a float test, but everything worked fine, so i gave it a go. Unfortunately i didnt have enough lead. I added 90KG (198lb) of lead, but it still wouldnt go down. What i didnt mention on the website was that i was forced to stop testing because the harbour master came along to say that they had had an anonymous phone call from some bloody do-gooder who pointed out that we were using the comercial area of the harbour and didnt have a proper comercial dive team, which is officially a legal requirement. So even though i had full permission from the harbour, i was forced to stop on a technicality. They think it was some missery that has the hump on with harbour and just wanted to be awkward. Shame because I was about to load a pile of anchor chain into the boat to get me more weight. The boat did seem to be very light at the back and i kept squirting air into the forward tank to level it out. Thinking about it, i suspect that the forward tank was settling into the correct position and it was the aft tank that was riding high. Just need to get some weight at the back. I had a slight list to port as well which i've no idea where that came from. Again i will trim that up. Anyway, i was really pleased with how it went on my first day. Im meeting my divers tonight who took a load of underwater pics apparently, so i will see how they look later. Might put some on the web if they are any good. Kind Regards James _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 23 17:00:35 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 14:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: References: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> <52671495.6a8a420a.25a3.ffff96e5@mx.google.com> <9A717C1F-0CD4-4457-9B5B-E29C4D61383B@AOL.com> <5267312a.63b9440a.2225.3acb@mx.google.com> <8D09DAD42DC444C-1884-3D49F@webmail-m232.sysops.aol.com> <1382530207.7939.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382531589.7964.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382562035.84977.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alec, I just heard from Dr Newton at Nutco and their ?chamber is to small for my Nekton sub?but the cost is very reasonable at 1,500 to 2,500 dollars depending on time. Hank From: Alec Smyth To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:52:33 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hi Hank, I asked at Carderock over a decade ago and was told the cost would depend on setup time, which varies depending on how much instrumentation you want during the test, but that a typical figure was around $27K. Waaaay beyond my budget. Dale Heinzing tested Snoopy somewhere on the West side of Canada at a lumber yard. Snoopy went in the tank alongside the lumber and must have been pretty well disinfected, but the scary bit was that they released the pressure almost instantaneously, with a bang. That test was ?to only 400' so not really sufficient for a Nekton, but it might still be of interest since I think it's relatively close to you and probably was inexpensive. Best, Alec? On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Hank, >? >There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. >The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. >? >A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. >Go to the WHOI website for info >? >? >Joe > > >From: hank pronk > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test > > > >Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test? my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West.? >Hank > > >From: Phil Nuytten >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > > >Hi, Hugh >As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. >Phil? >From: vbra676539 at aol.com >Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. >Vance >-----Original Message----- >From: Hugh Fulton >To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' >Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > >Vance,? Yep that sounds about right. >Are there any nasties to using it? >Chs Hugh >? >? >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley >Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > >Hugh, >HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: >Vance,? I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on.? I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. >>Hugh >>? >>From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com >>Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. >>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >> >>One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. >>Vance >>-----Original Message----- >>From: JimToddPsub >>To: personal_submersibles >>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>Vance, >>From Leeco Steel's website: >>? >>A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. >>? >>Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516.? I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. >>? >>Jim >>? >>In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: >>Jim, >>>A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). >>>Vance >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: JimToddPsub >>>To: personal_submersibles >>>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>Greg, >>>I should have clarified that.? It was a cut-and-paste from a web site.? I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises.? That was the case in this instance. >>>Jim >>>? >>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: >>>Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. >>>>? >>>>Greg >>>>? >>>>From:"JimToddPsub at aol.com" >>>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM >>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>>? >>>>Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: >>>>? >>>>ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . >>>> >>>>It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. >>>> >>>>For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. >>>> >>>>For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): >>>> >>>>Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% >>>>Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% >>>>Phosphorous 0.035% max >>>>Sulphur 0.035% max >>>>Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% >>>>? >>>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: >>>> >>>>>Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. >>>>> >>>>>Jon >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: >>>>>Hello, >>>>>>? >>>>>>What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. >>>>>>? >>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>Chris >>>>>>? >>>>>>Christopher Cave >>>>>> >>>>>>christophercave at yahoo.com >>>>>>? >>>>>>? >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>? >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>? >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ >> >>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >>http://www.eset.com/ >> >> >>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ >> >>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >>http://www.eset.com/ >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Oct 23 17:11:01 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 14:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: <1382562035.84977.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> <52671495.6a8a420a.25a3.ffff96e5@mx.google.com> <9A717C1F-0CD4-4457-9B5B-E29C4D61383B@AOL.com> <5267312a.63b9440a.2225.3acb@mx.google.com> <8D09DAD42DC444C-1884-3D49F@webmail-m232.sysops.aol.com> <1382530207.7939.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382531589.7964.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382562035.84977.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382562661.37877.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hank, you'll just have to build your own pressure chamber. Alan ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Alec, I just heard from Dr Newton at Nutco and their ?chamber is to small for my Nekton sub?but the cost is very reasonable at 1,500 to 2,500 dollars depending on time. Hank From: Alec Smyth To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:52:33 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hi Hank, I asked at Carderock over a decade ago and was told the cost would depend on setup time, which varies depending on how much instrumentation you want during the test, but that a typical figure was around $27K. Waaaay beyond my budget. Dale Heinzing tested Snoopy somewhere on the West side of Canada at a lumber yard. Snoopy went in the tank alongside the lumber and must have been pretty well disinfected, but the scary bit was that they released the pressure almost instantaneously, with a bang. That test was ?to only 400' so not really sufficient for a Nekton, but it might still be of interest since I think it's relatively close to you and probably was inexpensive. Best, Alec? On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Hank, >? >There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. >The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. >? >A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. >Go to the WHOI website for info >? >? >Joe > > >From: hank pronk > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test > > > >Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test? my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West.? >Hank > > >From: Phil Nuytten >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > > >Hi, Hugh >As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. >Phil? >From: vbra676539 at aol.com >Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >? I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. >Vance >-----Original Message----- >From: Hugh Fulton >To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' >Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > >Vance,? Yep that sounds about right. >Are there any nasties to using it? >Chs Hugh >? >? >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley >Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >? >Hugh, >HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: >Vance,? I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on.? I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. >>Hugh >>? >>From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com >>Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. >>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>? >>One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. >>Vance >>-----Original Message----- >>From: JimToddPsub >>To: personal_submersibles >>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>Vance, >>From Leeco Steel's website: >>? >>A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. >>? >>Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516.? I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. >>? >>Jim >>? >>In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: >>Jim, >>>A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). >>>Vance >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: JimToddPsub >>>To: personal_submersibles >>>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>Greg, >>>I should have clarified that.? It was a cut-and-paste from a web site.? I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises.? That was the case in this instance. >>>Jim >>>? >>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: >>>Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. >>>>? >>>>Greg >>>>? >>>>From:"JimToddPsub at aol.com" >>>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM >>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>>? >>>>Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: >>>>? >>>>ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . >>>> >>>>It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. >>>> >>>>For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. >>>> >>>>For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): >>>> >>>>Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% >>>>Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% >>>>Phosphorous 0.035% max >>>>Sulphur 0.035% max >>>>Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% >>>>? >>>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: >>>> >>>>>Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. >>>>> >>>>>Jon >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: >>>>>Hello, >>>>>>? >>>>>>What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. >>>>>>? >>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>Chris >>>>>>? >>>>>>Christopher Cave >>>>>> >>>>>>christophercave at yahoo.com >>>>>>? >>>>>>? >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>? >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>? >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>? >>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ >>? >>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>? >>http://www.eset.com/ >> >> >>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ >> >>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >>http://www.eset.com/ >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 23 17:21:19 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 14:21:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: <1382562035.84977.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> <52671495.6a8a420a.25a3.ffff96e5@mx.google.com> <9A717C1F-0CD4-4457-9B5B-E29C4D61383B@AOL.com> <5267312a.63b9440a.2225.3acb@mx.google.com> <8D09DAD42DC444C-1884-3D49F@webmail-m232.sysops.aol.com> <1382530207.7939.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382531589.7964.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382562035.84977.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382563279.31762.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Sorry, I meant Nuytco From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 3:00:35 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Alec, I just heard from Dr Newton at Nutco and their ?chamber is to small for my Nekton sub?but the cost is very reasonable at 1,500 to 2,500 dollars depending on time. Hank From: Alec Smyth To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:52:33 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hi Hank, I asked at Carderock over a decade ago and was told the cost would depend on setup time, which varies depending on how much instrumentation you want during the test, but that a typical figure was around $27K. Waaaay beyond my budget. Dale Heinzing tested Snoopy somewhere on the West side of Canada at a lumber yard. Snoopy went in the tank alongside the lumber and must have been pretty well disinfected, but the scary bit was that they released the pressure almost instantaneously, with a bang. That test was ?to only 400' so not really sufficient for a Nekton, but it might still be of interest since I think it's relatively close to you and probably was inexpensive. Best, Alec? On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Hank, >? >There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. >The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. >? >A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. >Go to the WHOI website for info >? >? >Joe > > >From: hank pronk > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test > > > >Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test? my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West.? >Hank > > >From: Phil Nuytten >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > > >Hi, Hugh >As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. >Phil? >From: vbra676539 at aol.com >Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. >Vance >-----Original Message----- >From: Hugh Fulton >To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' >Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > >Vance,? Yep that sounds about right. >Are there any nasties to using it? >Chs Hugh >? >? >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley >Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > >Hugh, >HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: >Vance,? I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on.? I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. >>Hugh >>? >>From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com >>Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. >>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >> >>One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. >>Vance >>-----Original Message----- >>From: JimToddPsub >>To: personal_submersibles >>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>Vance, >>From Leeco Steel's website: >>? >>A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. >>? >>Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516.? I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. >>? >>Jim >>? >>In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: >>Jim, >>>A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). >>>Vance >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: JimToddPsub >>>To: personal_submersibles >>>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>Greg, >>>I should have clarified that.? It was a cut-and-paste from a web site.? I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises.? That was the case in this instance. >>>Jim >>>? >>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: >>>Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. >>>>? >>>>Greg >>>>? >>>>From:"JimToddPsub at aol.com" >>>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM >>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>>? >>>>Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: >>>>? >>>>ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . >>>> >>>>It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. >>>> >>>>For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. >>>> >>>>For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): >>>> >>>>Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% >>>>Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% >>>>Phosphorous 0.035% max >>>>Sulphur 0.035% max >>>>Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% >>>>? >>>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: >>>> >>>>>Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. >>>>> >>>>>Jon >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: >>>>>Hello, >>>>>>? >>>>>>What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. >>>>>>? >>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>Chris >>>>>>? >>>>>>Christopher Cave >>>>>> >>>>>>christophercave at yahoo.com >>>>>>? >>>>>>? >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>? >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>? >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ >> >>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >>http://www.eset.com/ >> >> >>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ >> >>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >>http://www.eset.com/ >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 23 20:01:42 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 17:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: <1382562661.37877.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> <52671495.6a8a420a.25a3.ffff96e5@mx.google.com> <9A717C1F-0CD4-4457-9B5B-E29C4D61383B@AOL.com> <5267312a.63b9440a.2225.3acb@mx.google.com> <8D09DAD42DC444C-1884-3D49F@webmail-m232.sysops.aol.com> <1382530207.7939.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382531589.7964.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382562035.84977.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382562661.37877.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382572902.28458.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Alan, My next project is going to be an air bag trailer for Gamma.? Your fellow country men have perfected it in NZ?.? I want the deck of the trailer to drop right onto the ground with air bags.? Some pretty nice clear lakes here have shallow launches, so this will help.? Also it is pretty simple. Hank From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 3:11:01 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, you'll just have to build your own pressure chamber. Alan From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Alec, I just heard from Dr Newton at Nutco and their ?chamber is to small for my Nekton sub?but the cost is very reasonable at 1,500 to 2,500 dollars depending on time. Hank From: Alec Smyth To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:52:33 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hi Hank, I asked at Carderock over a decade ago and was told the cost would depend on setup time, which varies depending on how much instrumentation you want during the test, but that a typical figure was around $27K. Waaaay beyond my budget. Dale Heinzing tested Snoopy somewhere on the West side of Canada at a lumber yard. Snoopy went in the tank alongside the lumber and must have been pretty well disinfected, but the scary bit was that they released the pressure almost instantaneously, with a bang. That test was ?to only 400' so not really sufficient for a Nekton, but it might still be of interest since I think it's relatively close to you and probably was inexpensive. Best, Alec? On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Hank, >? >There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. >The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. >? >A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. >Go to the WHOI website for info >? >? >Joe > > >From: hank pronk > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test > > > >Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test? my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West.? >Hank > > >From: Phil Nuytten >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > > >Hi, Hugh >As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. >Phil? >From: vbra676539 at aol.com >Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. >Vance >-----Original Message----- >From: Hugh Fulton >To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' >Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > >Vance,? Yep that sounds about right. >Are there any nasties to using it? >Chs Hugh >? >? >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley >Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > >Hugh, >HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. >Vance > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: >Vance,? I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on.? I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. >>Hugh >>? >>From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com >>Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. >>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >> >>One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. >>Vance >>-----Original Message----- >>From: JimToddPsub >>To: personal_submersibles >>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>Vance, >>From Leeco Steel's website: >>? >>A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. >>? >>Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516.? I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. >>? >>Jim >>? >>In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: >>Jim, >>>A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). >>>Vance >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: JimToddPsub >>>To: personal_submersibles >>>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>Greg, >>>I should have clarified that.? It was a cut-and-paste from a web site.? I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises.? That was the case in this instance. >>>Jim >>>? >>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: >>>Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. >>>>? >>>>Greg >>>>? >>>>From:"JimToddPsub at aol.com" >>>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM >>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>>? >>>>Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: >>>>? >>>>ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . >>>> >>>>It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. >>>> >>>>For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. >>>> >>>>For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): >>>> >>>>Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% >>>>Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% >>>>Phosphorous 0.035% max >>>>Sulphur 0.035% max >>>>Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% >>>>? >>>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: >>>> >>>>>Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. >>>>> >>>>>Jon >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: >>>>>Hello, >>>>>>? >>>>>>What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. >>>>>>? >>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>Chris >>>>>>? >>>>>>Christopher Cave >>>>>> >>>>>>christophercave at yahoo.com >>>>>>? >>>>>>? >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>? >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>? >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ >> >>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >>http://www.eset.com/ >> >> >>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ >> >>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >>http://www.eset.com/ >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephen.fordyce at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 22:02:29 2013 From: stephen.fordyce at gmail.com (Stephen Fordyce) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 13:02:29 +1100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie with no background whatsoever In-Reply-To: <92cc.7b36fde2.3f998de6@aol.com> References: <92cc.7b36fde2.3f998de6@aol.com> Message-ID: G'day Matt, If it's an ROV you're after, there is a good project which originated on kickstarter called "OpenROV" - Google it. It's open source so the plans are available free, but you can also buy kits and assemblies depending on your budget and inclination to build. I'm part way through building my all-parts-included kit and although some of it wouldn't pass muster in a sub context, it's pretty well thought out and seems to work. There are also ROV books out there - I have Underwater Robotics: Science, Design and Fabrication by Steven Moore which I haven't read properly but seems a reasonable resource. Cheers from Australia, Steve On 24/10/2013 7:39 AM, wrote: > ** > Good afternoon, Matt, > > Welcome aboard. You really have a pretty good background particularly > with the physics. *Manned Submersibles *by R. Frank Busby is considered > the bible on the subject. The purple hardcover version is what you want > and not one of the paperback reprints that lack the pictures and charts. > Here's a link: > > http://www.amazon.com/Manned-submersibles-R-Frank-Busby/dp/B0006CRZRI/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1382557994&sr=1-1&keywords=manned+submersibles > > Explore the Psubs.org web site. You'll find enough information and design > tools to keep you busy and entertained for days. I would also highly > encourage you to go to the Membership tab (far right on the home page) and > join up. You then will have access to the Member Forum, the member > directory, and can post a profile on your membership page. > > James Franklin's http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/ is one of the best > I've seen on an individual project from beginning to launch. The launch > was just about a week ago. > > Best wishes, > Jim > > > In a message dated 10/23/2013 11:49:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > matthewbecker1 at yahoo.com writes: > > So building a submarine has always been one of my dreams. I am a > Physical Therapist and not an engineer so there is a lot that I need to > learn and I am perfectly willing to put in my time. My goal is to start > with a ROV and go from there. Can anyone give me an idea of a place to > start? I have background in physics, chem, some engine work, and welding. > I am starting to learn electronics and thinking of using arduino or > rasperry Pi as the circuit board to start. I am looking for some guidance > on where to start. What should I focus most of my efforts on? Are there > any books that you can recommend to get me going in the right direction. I > have come to find that there are some resources but not a lot. So any > assistance would be appreciated. > Thank you. > Matt > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seaquestor at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 23:55:55 2013 From: seaquestor at gmail.com (David Colombo) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 20:55:55 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: <1382562035.84977.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> <52671495.6a8a420a.25a3.ffff96e5@mx.google.com> <9A717C1F-0CD4-4457-9B5B-E29C4D61383B@AOL.com> <5267312a.63b9440a.2225.3acb@mx.google.com> <8D09DAD42DC444C-1884-3D49F@webmail-m232.sysops.aol.com> <1382530207.7939.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382531589.7964.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382562035.84977.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, what the dimensions of his chamber? On Oct 23, 2013 2:01 PM, "hank pronk" wrote: > Alec, > I just heard from Dr Newton at Nutco and their chamber is to small for my > Nekton sub but the cost is very reasonable at 1,500 to 2,500 dollars > depending on time. > Hank > > *From:* Alec Smyth > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:52:33 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test > > Hi Hank, > > I asked at Carderock over a decade ago and was told the cost would depend > on setup time, which varies depending on how much instrumentation you want > during the test, but that a typical figure was around $27K. Waaaay beyond > my budget. Dale Heinzing tested Snoopy somewhere on the West side of Canada > at a lumber yard. Snoopy went in the tank alongside the lumber and must > have been pretty well disinfected, but the scary bit was that they released > the pressure almost instantaneously, with a bang. That test was to only > 400' so not really sufficient for a Nekton, but it might still be of > interest since I think it's relatively close to you and probably was > inexpensive. > > > Best, > > Alec > > > On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > Hank, > > There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" > limit if I recall correctly. > The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. > > A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. > Go to the WHOI website for info > > > Joe > > *From:* hank pronk > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test > > Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test my > Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West. > Hank > > *From:* Phil Nuytten > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > Hi, Hugh > As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, > that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up > with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide > to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. > Phil > > *From:* vbra676539 at aol.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, > of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the > pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. > Vance > -----Original Message----- > From: Hugh Fulton > To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > Vance, Yep that sounds about right. > Are there any nasties to using it? > Chs Hugh > > > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [ > mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] > *On Behalf Of *Vance Bradley > *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > Hugh, > HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% > depth increase. > Vance > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: > > Vance, I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I > don?t know what on. I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the > HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. > Hugh > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [ > mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > *On Behalf Of *vbra676539 at aol.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the > DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, > he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. > Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with > welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. > Vance > -----Original Message----- > From: JimToddPsub > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > Vance, > From Leeco Steel's website: > > A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield > and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. *A537 steel plate > * is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the > oil, gas and petrochemical industry. > > Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516. I'm sure > there are more variables to consider including cost. > > Jim > > In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > vbra676539 at aol.com writes: > > Jim, > A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that > Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told > that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better > cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on > this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which > I suspect he is). > Vance > -----Original Message----- > From: JimToddPsub > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > Greg, > I should have clarified that. It was a cut-and-paste from a web site. > I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I > come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises. That > was the case in this instance. > Jim > > In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: > > Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the > group that is also in the steel industry. > > Greg > > *From:* "JimToddPsub at aol.com" > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > > Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: > > ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades > in market . > > It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch > toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley > Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of > tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of > the specifications popularity. > > For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates > supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. > > For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME > standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): > > Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% > Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% > Phosphorous 0.035% max > Sulphur 0.035% max > Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% > > In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > jonw at psubs.org writes: > > > Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. > > Jon > > > On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: > > Hello, > > What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned > marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can > review. > > Thanks, > Chris > > *Christopher Cave > * > *christophercave at yahoo.com* > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com/ > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com/ > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 00:45:13 2013 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 00:45:13 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch In-Reply-To: <1382554965.26877.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382554965.26877.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: James, Congratulations on your first launch! I am sorry to hear that you had to contend with some complaints, but you handled it well by moving along. Some people... Anyway, I love you sub! Good job, and again, congrats on your first launch. ~ Douglas S. On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 3:02 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Rick, > > I have an accurate CAD model of a stock 350 hull and pods with assigned > material densities. The software can make short work of determining changes > in the longitudinal CG and what effects shifting the pods have. We would > have to agree on a vertical datum, say the surface Edge of a hemihead for > example. > > As it lays now, the CG is right under the pilots butt, but it looks like > George did not account accurately for the changes in buoyancy once > launched. The trick would be trying to guess how far back to shift the CG. > I can do this for you on my next group of days off if you'd like. > > However, I like James idea of external movable weights as a better > solution because you still have this 400 lb light condition to contend with > anyway. > > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > ------------------------------ > * From: * Land N Sea ; > * To: * Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; > * Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch > * Sent: * Wed, Oct 23, 2013 6:13:05 PM > > I haven?t attached my pods yet to the pressure hull and after hearing > about the aft positive buoyancy issue from a number of K-350 owner/builders > I am now contemplating moving my pods aft one frame. I have all ready > installed my drop weight threw hulls so I would have to extend the cross > bar forward that goes between the pods for that plus not having any > engineering experience, it would purely be a guess on what it would do to > the trim. I doubt it would have the reverse effect and transfer the > buoyancy problem to the front but not sure. > One thought I had was to bolt them on per plans but be able to adjust them > aft as needed to attain the proper trim and then when I find the magic > spot, weld in the bell reducers I have and connect the power cables. Any > thoughts out their pro or con? > > Rick > > *From:* James Frankland > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2013 2:17 AM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch > > What im going to do is fix 100Kg under the aft tank, and then make the > rest in blocks that can be moved around. Then divers can place them with > straps to the underside somewhere until its balanced. Will make the blocks > at the weekend. > > On 22 October 2013 20:41, wrote: > >> ** >> Hi James congratulations, >> - seems more and more that to light is a normal standard on launching >> Psubs. >> >> May do not install fix weight in the stern next time. Install >> it lose in the center and than trim it longitudinal on dive station >> with move it forward or aftward or more in or out. >> Its the fastest way to figure out the right weight and trim. >> >> By the way Alan our overalls are red, and it help the skipper >> to figure out which guy is in his crew and which not.. >> Also the guys with the brighter (many times washed out) overalls are the >> workers in the crew.. >> >> http://www.hansesail.com/uploads/tx_gorillary/2013_38_euronauttauchtauf_01.jpg >> >> :-) vbr Carsten >> >> >> >> "Alan" schrieb: >> >> Congratulations James, >> Look forward to the coming videos. >> What a pain having to cut things short after all that effort. >> Maybe you cold buy everyone a set of orange overalls like Carsten >> does, to make things look professional. >> Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 22/10/2013, at 10:06 PM, James Frankland >> wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> >> I got my boat in the water at the weekend for the first time. Put the >> pictures up here. >> >> http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/operations.htm >> >> I didnt get any leaks at all, so i was super happy. I wasnt really >> expecting to try and dive and would have been happy with just no leaks and >> a float test, but everything worked fine, so i gave it a go. Unfortunately >> i didnt have enough lead. I added 90KG (198lb) of lead, but it still >> wouldnt go down. What i didnt mention on the website was that i was forced >> to stop testing because the harbour master came along to say that they had >> had an anonymous phone call from some bloody do-gooder who pointed out that >> we were using the comercial area of the harbour and didnt have a proper >> comercial dive team, which is officially a legal requirement. So even >> though i had full permission from the harbour, i was forced to stop on a >> technicality. They think it was some missery that has the hump on with >> harbour and just wanted to be awkward. Shame because I was about to load a >> pile of anchor chain into the boat to get me more weight. >> >> The boat did seem to be very light at the back and i kept squirting air >> into the forward tank to level it out. Thinking about it, i suspect that >> the forward tank was settling into the correct position and it was the aft >> tank that was riding high. Just need to get some weight at the back. I >> had a slight list to port as well which i've no idea where that came from. >> Again i will trim that up. >> >> Anyway, i was really pleased with how it went on my first day. Im >> meeting my divers tonight who took a load of underwater pics apparently, so >> i will see how they look later. Might put some on the web if they are any >> good. >> >> Kind Regards >> James >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Carsten Standfu? >> Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik >> Heinrich Reck Str.12A >> 18211 Admannshagen >> >> 0172 8464 420 >> WWW.Euronaut.org >> Carsten at euronaut.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 00:53:42 2013 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 00:53:42 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] newbie with no background whatsoever In-Reply-To: References: <92cc.7b36fde2.3f998de6@aol.com> Message-ID: Welcome to PSUBS Matt! My name is Douglas. I may not be as new as you are, but I am also a relatively new member to this group (who hopes to one day build and operate his own 1-atm sub!). My only advice to you is this: Listen to what these guys have to say, because they are a group of pretty smart cookies! Glad to have you aboard. ~ Douglas S. On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 10:02 PM, Stephen Fordyce wrote: > G'day Matt, > If it's an ROV you're after, there is a good project which originated on > kickstarter called "OpenROV" - Google it. It's open source so the plans are > available free, but you can also buy kits and assemblies depending on your > budget and inclination to build. I'm part way through building my > all-parts-included kit and although some of it wouldn't pass muster in a > sub context, it's pretty well thought out and seems to work. > > There are also ROV books out there - I have Underwater Robotics: Science, > Design and Fabrication by Steven Moore which I haven't read properly but > seems a reasonable resource. > > Cheers from Australia, > Steve > On 24/10/2013 7:39 AM, wrote: > >> ** >> Good afternoon, Matt, >> >> Welcome aboard. You really have a pretty good background particularly >> with the physics. *Manned Submersibles *by R. Frank Busby is considered >> the bible on the subject. The purple hardcover version is what you want >> and not one of the paperback reprints that lack the pictures and charts. >> Here's a link: >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Manned-submersibles-R-Frank-Busby/dp/B0006CRZRI/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1382557994&sr=1-1&keywords=manned+submersibles >> >> Explore the Psubs.org web site. You'll find enough information and >> design tools to keep you busy and entertained for days. I would also >> highly encourage you to go to the Membership tab (far right on the home >> page) and join up. You then will have access to the Member Forum, the >> member directory, and can post a profile on your membership page. >> >> James Franklin's http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/ is one of the best >> I've seen on an individual project from beginning to launch. The launch >> was just about a week ago. >> >> Best wishes, >> Jim >> >> >> In a message dated 10/23/2013 11:49:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time, >> matthewbecker1 at yahoo.com writes: >> >> So building a submarine has always been one of my dreams. I am a >> Physical Therapist and not an engineer so there is a lot that I need to >> learn and I am perfectly willing to put in my time. My goal is to start >> with a ROV and go from there. Can anyone give me an idea of a place to >> start? I have background in physics, chem, some engine work, and welding. >> I am starting to learn electronics and thinking of using arduino or >> rasperry Pi as the circuit board to start. I am looking for some guidance >> on where to start. What should I focus most of my efforts on? Are there >> any books that you can recommend to get me going in the right direction. I >> have come to find that there are some resources but not a lot. So any >> assistance would be appreciated. >> Thank you. >> Matt >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Thu Oct 24 05:02:31 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 10:02:31 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue In-Reply-To: <611fbeb98f2c4a42932080f74c0db4db@DM2PR05MB494.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> References: <611fbeb98f2c4a42932080f74c0db4db@DM2PR05MB494.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hi Emile\Alec, Thanks for that info. Not quite sure how i can connect pins 1 and 3, but i will have another look at it later on after work and see how it looks. Many thanks James On 23 October 2013 18:14, Smyth, Alec wrote: > Hi James,**** > > ** ** > > OTS have done something clever. The OTS transducer has only two contacts, > but the when you use the factory cable for mounting the transducer remotely > you will notice the cable connector has three contacts. What they are doing > is using two of them (#1 and #3) connected together to act as a switch, so > that when you plug in the cable the OTS box turns on. I think if you keep > your current arrangement, but also connect contacts 1 and 3, you might find > it works.**** > > ** ** > > Best, > > Alec**** > > ** ** > > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Emile van Essen > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2013 12:34 PM > *To:* 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue**** > > ** ** > > James,**** > > ** ** > > It usually gives no problem to cut a transducer cable and solder it again. > Don?t forget the shield.**** > > Obvious, the transducer must be in water and may not be in the shade of > the sub.**** > > ** ** > > Got mine on top of the sail. Best place but works not on surface..**** > > ** ** > > BTW; I am dealer of Ocean Reef UW Communication ; This brand share the > same technology as OTS so you can talk between the 2 brands..)**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > Best regards, Emile**** > > .**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > ** ** > ------------------------------ > > *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [ > mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > *Namens *James Frankland > *Verzonden:* woensdag 23 oktober 2013 18:05 > *Aan:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue**** > > ** ** > > Hi All,**** > > **** > > Anyone got any thoughts on this.**** > > **** > > My OTS surface station mounted inside the sub didnt work. It didnt even > switch on. I checked the Vout at the batteries (16x AAA inside the unit) > and it was good at 12V.**** > > **** > > I suspect the problem is that i cut the transducer cable to pass it > through a sub conn bulkhead connector. When you plus the transducer into > the unit, that is supposed to turn it on at the same time, but nothing. > Suspect no signal from the transducer so unit not switching on.**** > > **** > > You can see the rubbish effort i made of it here. Im almost sure this is > the fault.**** > > **** > > http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page22133.htm**** > > **** > > Anyone got any ideas? I need to get this fixed before the nest dive.**** > > **** > > Thanks**** > > James**** > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Thu Oct 24 05:03:16 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 10:03:16 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some small videos Message-ID: Hi All, Here are a couple of very short clips of the Sunday activities. Regards James http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7_-B3GLf2A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqQR0fUcUIk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 06:20:49 2013 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 06:20:49 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue In-Reply-To: References: <611fbeb98f2c4a42932080f74c0db4db@DM2PR05MB494.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: In the connector you screw onto the OTS box, just connect both 1 and 3 to the same cable. Best, Alec On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 5:02 AM, James Frankland < jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > Hi Emile\Alec, > > Thanks for that info. Not quite sure how i can connect pins 1 and 3, but > i will have another look at it later on after work and see how it looks. > Many thanks > James > > On 23 October 2013 18:14, Smyth, Alec wrote: > >> Hi James,**** >> >> ** ** >> >> OTS have done something clever. The OTS transducer has only two contacts, >> but the when you use the factory cable for mounting the transducer remotely >> you will notice the cable connector has three contacts. What they are doing >> is using two of them (#1 and #3) connected together to act as a switch, so >> that when you plug in the cable the OTS box turns on. I think if you keep >> your current arrangement, but also connect contacts 1 and 3, you might find >> it works.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Best, >> >> Alec**** >> >> ** ** >> >> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Emile van Essen >> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2013 12:34 PM >> *To:* 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue**** >> >> ** ** >> >> James,**** >> >> ** ** >> >> It usually gives no problem to cut a transducer cable and solder it >> again. Don?t forget the shield.**** >> >> Obvious, the transducer must be in water and may not be in the shade of >> the sub.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Got mine on top of the sail. Best place but works not on surface..**** >> >> ** ** >> >> BTW; I am dealer of Ocean Reef UW Communication ; This brand share the >> same technology as OTS so you can talk between the 2 brands..)**** >> >> ** ** >> >> ** ** >> >> Best regards, Emile**** >> >> .**** >> >> ** ** >> >> ** ** >> >> ** ** >> >> ** ** >> ------------------------------ >> >> *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [ >> mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >> *Namens *James Frankland >> *Verzonden:* woensdag 23 oktober 2013 18:05 >> *Aan:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org >> *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Hi All,**** >> >> **** >> >> Anyone got any thoughts on this.**** >> >> **** >> >> My OTS surface station mounted inside the sub didnt work. It didnt even >> switch on. I checked the Vout at the batteries (16x AAA inside the unit) >> and it was good at 12V.**** >> >> **** >> >> I suspect the problem is that i cut the transducer cable to pass it >> through a sub conn bulkhead connector. When you plus the transducer into >> the unit, that is supposed to turn it on at the same time, but nothing. >> Suspect no signal from the transducer so unit not switching on.**** >> >> **** >> >> You can see the rubbish effort i made of it here. Im almost sure this is >> the fault.**** >> >> **** >> >> http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page22133.htm**** >> >> **** >> >> Anyone got any ideas? I need to get this fixed before the nest dive.**** >> >> **** >> >> Thanks**** >> >> James**** >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Thu Oct 24 06:42:48 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 11:42:48 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue In-Reply-To: References: <611fbeb98f2c4a42932080f74c0db4db@DM2PR05MB494.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Im a bit confused as when i cut the cable (some distance from the connector), there are only 2 cables. The inner cable and the shield. So not sure where this 3rd cable is. I will take the connector appart and investigate.... Thanks james On 24 October 2013 11:20, Alec Smyth wrote: > In the connector you screw onto the OTS box, just connect both 1 and 3 to > the same cable. > > Best, > > Alec > > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 5:02 AM, James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > >> Hi Emile\Alec, >> >> Thanks for that info. Not quite sure how i can connect pins 1 and 3, but >> i will have another look at it later on after work and see how it looks. >> Many thanks >> James >> >> On 23 October 2013 18:14, Smyth, Alec wrote: >> >>> Hi James,**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> OTS have done something clever. The OTS transducer has only two >>> contacts, but the when you use the factory cable for mounting the >>> transducer remotely you will notice the cable connector has three contacts. >>> What they are doing is using two of them (#1 and #3) connected together to >>> act as a switch, so that when you plug in the cable the OTS box turns on. I >>> think if you keep your current arrangement, but also connect contacts 1 and >>> 3, you might find it works.**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >>> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Emile van Essen >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2013 12:34 PM >>> *To:* 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> James,**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> It usually gives no problem to cut a transducer cable and solder it >>> again. Don?t forget the shield.**** >>> >>> Obvious, the transducer must be in water and may not be in the shade of >>> the sub.**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Got mine on top of the sail. Best place but works not on surface..**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> BTW; I am dealer of Ocean Reef UW Communication ; This brand share >>> the same technology as OTS so you can talk between the 2 brands..)**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Best regards, Emile**** >>> >>> .**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> ** ** >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [ >>> mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >>> *Namens *James Frankland >>> *Verzonden:* woensdag 23 oktober 2013 18:05 >>> *Aan:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>> *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue**** >>> >>> ** ** >>> >>> Hi All,**** >>> >>> **** >>> >>> Anyone got any thoughts on this.**** >>> >>> **** >>> >>> My OTS surface station mounted inside the sub didnt work. It didnt even >>> switch on. I checked the Vout at the batteries (16x AAA inside the unit) >>> and it was good at 12V.**** >>> >>> **** >>> >>> I suspect the problem is that i cut the transducer cable to pass it >>> through a sub conn bulkhead connector. When you plus the transducer into >>> the unit, that is supposed to turn it on at the same time, but nothing. >>> Suspect no signal from the transducer so unit not switching on.**** >>> >>> **** >>> >>> You can see the rubbish effort i made of it here. Im almost sure this >>> is the fault.**** >>> >>> **** >>> >>> http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page22133.htm**** >>> >>> **** >>> >>> Anyone got any ideas? I need to get this fixed before the nest dive.*** >>> * >>> >>> **** >>> >>> Thanks**** >>> >>> James**** >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 07:56:05 2013 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 07:56:05 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue In-Reply-To: References: <611fbeb98f2c4a42932080f74c0db4db@DM2PR05MB494.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Let me try and re-word this... You will find the cable has two conductors, but the connector has three contacts. Two of the contacts are connected to the same cable. Thus when you screw the connector onto the OTS unit, it closes a circuit between the two contacts. Don't cut open the connector, you can explore this just by checking continuity between the contacts. Sorry, I hope I'm not repeating myself! Alec On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 6:42 AM, James Frankland < jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > Im a bit confused as when i cut the cable (some distance from the > connector), there are only 2 cables. The inner cable and the shield. So > not sure where this 3rd cable is. I will take the connector appart and > investigate.... > > Thanks > james > > On 24 October 2013 11:20, Alec Smyth wrote: > >> In the connector you screw onto the OTS box, just connect both 1 and 3 to >> the same cable. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 5:02 AM, James Frankland < >> jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Emile\Alec, >>> >>> Thanks for that info. Not quite sure how i can connect pins 1 and 3, >>> but i will have another look at it later on after work and see how it looks. >>> Many thanks >>> James >>> >>> On 23 October 2013 18:14, Smyth, Alec wrote: >>> >>>> Hi James,**** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> >>>> OTS have done something clever. The OTS transducer has only two >>>> contacts, but the when you use the factory cable for mounting the >>>> transducer remotely you will notice the cable connector has three contacts. >>>> What they are doing is using two of them (#1 and #3) connected together to >>>> act as a switch, so that when you plug in the cable the OTS box turns on. I >>>> think if you keep your current arrangement, but also connect contacts 1 and >>>> 3, you might find it works.**** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec**** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> >>>> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >>>> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Emile van Essen >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2013 12:34 PM >>>> *To:* 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' >>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue**** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> >>>> James,**** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> >>>> It usually gives no problem to cut a transducer cable and solder it >>>> again. Don?t forget the shield.**** >>>> >>>> Obvious, the transducer must be in water and may not be in the shade of >>>> the sub.**** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> >>>> Got mine on top of the sail. Best place but works not on surface..**** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> >>>> BTW; I am dealer of Ocean Reef UW Communication ; This brand share >>>> the same technology as OTS so you can talk between the 2 brands..)**** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> >>>> Best regards, Emile**** >>>> >>>> .**** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [ >>>> mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >>>> *Namens *James Frankland >>>> *Verzonden:* woensdag 23 oktober 2013 18:05 >>>> *Aan:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>> *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue**** >>>> >>>> ** ** >>>> >>>> Hi All,**** >>>> >>>> **** >>>> >>>> Anyone got any thoughts on this.**** >>>> >>>> **** >>>> >>>> My OTS surface station mounted inside the sub didnt work. It didnt >>>> even switch on. I checked the Vout at the batteries (16x AAA inside the >>>> unit) and it was good at 12V.**** >>>> >>>> **** >>>> >>>> I suspect the problem is that i cut the transducer cable to pass it >>>> through a sub conn bulkhead connector. When you plus the transducer into >>>> the unit, that is supposed to turn it on at the same time, but nothing. >>>> Suspect no signal from the transducer so unit not switching on.**** >>>> >>>> **** >>>> >>>> You can see the rubbish effort i made of it here. Im almost sure this >>>> is the fault.**** >>>> >>>> **** >>>> >>>> http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page22133.htm**** >>>> >>>> **** >>>> >>>> Anyone got any ideas? I need to get this fixed before the nest dive.** >>>> ** >>>> >>>> **** >>>> >>>> Thanks**** >>>> >>>> James**** >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Thu Oct 24 08:09:00 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 13:09:00 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue In-Reply-To: References: <611fbeb98f2c4a42932080f74c0db4db@DM2PR05MB494.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hi Alec, Ok, i think i get it. I will investigate later and report back...! Many thanks. James On 24 October 2013 12:56, Alec Smyth wrote: > Let me try and re-word this... You will find the cable has two conductors, > but the connector has three contacts. Two of the contacts are connected to > the same cable. Thus when you screw the connector onto the OTS unit, it > closes a circuit between the two contacts. Don't cut open the connector, > you can explore this just by checking continuity between the contacts. > > Sorry, I hope I'm not repeating myself! > > > Alec > > > On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 6:42 AM, James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > >> Im a bit confused as when i cut the cable (some distance from the >> connector), there are only 2 cables. The inner cable and the shield. So >> not sure where this 3rd cable is. I will take the connector appart and >> investigate.... >> >> Thanks >> james >> >> On 24 October 2013 11:20, Alec Smyth wrote: >> >>> In the connector you screw onto the OTS box, just connect both 1 and 3 >>> to the same cable. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 5:02 AM, James Frankland < >>> jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Emile\Alec, >>>> >>>> Thanks for that info. Not quite sure how i can connect pins 1 and 3, >>>> but i will have another look at it later on after work and see how it looks. >>>> Many thanks >>>> James >>>> >>>> On 23 October 2013 18:14, Smyth, Alec wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi James,**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> OTS have done something clever. The OTS transducer has only two >>>>> contacts, but the when you use the factory cable for mounting the >>>>> transducer remotely you will notice the cable connector has three contacts. >>>>> What they are doing is using two of them (#1 and #3) connected together to >>>>> act as a switch, so that when you plug in the cable the OTS box turns on. I >>>>> think if you keep your current arrangement, but also connect contacts 1 and >>>>> 3, you might find it works.**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >>>>> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Emile van >>>>> Essen >>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2013 12:34 PM >>>>> *To:* 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> James,**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> It usually gives no problem to cut a transducer cable and solder it >>>>> again. Don?t forget the shield.**** >>>>> >>>>> Obvious, the transducer must be in water and may not be in the shade >>>>> of the sub.**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> Got mine on top of the sail. Best place but works not on surface..**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> BTW; I am dealer of Ocean Reef UW Communication ; This brand share >>>>> the same technology as OTS so you can talk between the 2 brands..)**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, Emile**** >>>>> >>>>> .**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [ >>>>> mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >>>>> *Namens *James Frankland >>>>> *Verzonden:* woensdag 23 oktober 2013 18:05 >>>>> *Aan:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> Hi All,**** >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> Anyone got any thoughts on this.**** >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> My OTS surface station mounted inside the sub didnt work. It didnt >>>>> even switch on. I checked the Vout at the batteries (16x AAA inside the >>>>> unit) and it was good at 12V.**** >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> I suspect the problem is that i cut the transducer cable to pass it >>>>> through a sub conn bulkhead connector. When you plus the transducer into >>>>> the unit, that is supposed to turn it on at the same time, but nothing. >>>>> Suspect no signal from the transducer so unit not switching on.**** >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> You can see the rubbish effort i made of it here. Im almost sure this >>>>> is the fault.**** >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page22133.htm**** >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> Anyone got any ideas? I need to get this fixed before the nest dive.* >>>>> *** >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> Thanks**** >>>>> >>>>> James**** >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Oct 24 08:26:31 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 08:26:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch In-Reply-To: References: <1382554965.26877.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D09ECB67CA36EB-13F0-B51@webmail-d153.sysops.aol.com> George left the sub alone while tacking on the aft extension because the passenger section was exactly that, an add-on, and he figured to deal with it as its own issue. Otherwise he would have to do exactly what you are talking about, which is to re-distribute everything and then be forced to do a new weights and balances chart. I used to talk to him about this, figuring the passenger would be better in the belly and in front so he/she could see and participate more fully (like Snoopy). But the L-version sub in George's mind was a solo sub with a rumble seat, period. Anything beyond that was up to the individual builder. He didn't mind, but he wasn't going to join in. As a side note, they miscalculated on the K600 and it wouldn't float correctly, so added the L-style hull section to hold the back end up, then shifted all the lead back there to balance it. Had to do it at the very last minute, but it worked sufficiently for Lloyd's to buy off on it. Had they built hull #2, according to George, it would have had a central conning tower on the 6' hull length. Even though it is dimensionally the same as a K-350L, it was never intended for two people. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Suhr To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 12:45 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch James, Congratulations on your first launch! I am sorry to hear that you had to contend with some complaints, but you handled it well by moving along. Some people... Anyway, I love you sub! Good job, and again, congrats on your first launch. ~ Douglas S. On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 3:02 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: Rick, I have an accurate CAD model of a stock 350 hull and pods with assigned material densities. The software can make short work of determining changes in the longitudinal CG and what effects shifting the pods have. We would have to agree on a vertical datum, say the surface Edge of a hemihead for example. As it lays now, the CG is right under the pilots butt, but it looks like George did not account accurately for the changes in buoyancy once launched. The trick would be trying to guess how far back to shift the CG. I can do this for you on my next group of days off if you'd like. However, I like James idea of external movable weights as a better solution because you still have this 400 lb light condition to contend with anyway. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Land N Sea ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch Sent: Wed, Oct 23, 2013 6:13:05 PM I haven?t attached my pods yet to the pressure hull and after hearing about the aft positive buoyancy issue from a number of K-350 owner/builders I am now contemplating moving my pods aft one frame. I have all ready installed my drop weight threw hulls so I would have to extend the cross bar forward that goes between the pods for that plus not having any engineering experience, it would purely be a guess on what it would do to the trim. I doubt it would have the reverse effect and transfer the buoyancy problem to the front but not sure. One thought I had was to bolt them on per plans but be able to adjust them aft as needed to attain the proper trim and then when I find the magic spot, weld in the bell reducers I have and connect the power cables. Any thoughts out their pro or con? Rick From: James Frankland Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 2:17 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch What im going to do is fix 100Kg under the aft tank, and then make the rest in blocks that can be moved around. Then divers can place them with straps to the underside somewhere until its balanced. Will make the blocks at the weekend. On 22 October 2013 20:41, wrote: Hi James congratulations, - seems more and more that to light is a normal standard on launching Psubs. May do not install fix weight in the stern next time. Install it lose in the center and than trim it longitudinal on dive station with move it forward or aftward or more in or out. Its the fastest way to figure out the right weight and trim. By the way Alan our overalls are red, and it help the skipper to figure out which guy is in his crew and which not.. Also the guys with the brighter (many times washed out) overalls are the workers in the crew.. http://www.hansesail.com/uploads/tx_gorillary/2013_38_euronauttauchtauf_01.jpg :-) vbr Carsten "Alan" schrieb: Congratulations James, Look forward to the coming videos. What a pain having to cut things short after all that effort. Maybe you cold buy everyone a set of orange overalls like Carsten does, to make things look professional. Alan Sent from my iPad On 22/10/2013, at 10:06 PM, James Frankland wrote: Hi All, I got my boat in the water at the weekend for the first time. Put the pictures up here. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/operations.htm I didnt get any leaks at all, so i was super happy. I wasnt really expecting to try and dive and would have been happy with just no leaks and a float test, but everything worked fine, so i gave it a go. Unfortunately i didnt have enough lead. I added 90KG (198lb) of lead, but it still wouldnt go down. What i didnt mention on the website was that i was forced to stop testing because the harbour master came along to say that they had had an anonymous phone call from some bloody do-gooder who pointed out that we were using the comercial area of the harbour and didnt have a proper comercial dive team, which is officially a legal requirement. So even though i had full permission from the harbour, i was forced to stop on a technicality. They think it was some missery that has the hump on with harbour and just wanted to be awkward. Shame because I was about to load a pile of anchor chain into the boat to get me more weight. The boat did seem to be very light at the back and i kept squirting air into the forward tank to level it out. Thinking about it, i suspect that the forward tank was settling into the correct position and it was the aft tank that was riding high. Just need to get some weight at the back. I had a slight list to port as well which i've no idea where that came from. Again i will trim that up. Anyway, i was really pleased with how it went on my first day. Im meeting my divers tonight who took a load of underwater pics apparently, so i will see how they look later. Might put some on the web if they are any good. Kind Regards James _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 24 08:29:50 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 05:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: References: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> <52671495.6a8a420a.25a3.ffff96e5@mx.google.com> <9A717C1F-0CD4-4457-9B5B-E29C4D61383B@AOL.com> <5267312a.63b9440a.2225.3acb@mx.google.com> <8D09DAD42DC444C-1884-3D49F@webmail-m232.sysops.aol.com> <1382530207.7939.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382531589.7964.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382562035.84977.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382617790.12936.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> David, The chamber is 8 feet dia and 9 feet tall.? The top and bottom are domed so it is 9 feet at the highest point.? Hank From: David Colombo To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 9:55:55 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, what the dimensions of his chamber? On Oct 23, 2013 2:01 PM, "hank pronk" wrote: Alec, >I just heard from Dr Newton at Nutco and their ?chamber is to small for my Nekton sub?but the cost is very reasonable at 1,500 to 2,500 dollars depending on time. >Hank > > >From: Alec Smyth >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:52:33 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test > > > >Hi Hank, > > >I asked at Carderock over a decade ago and was told the cost would depend on setup time, which varies depending on how much instrumentation you want during the test, but that a typical figure was around $27K. Waaaay beyond my budget. Dale Heinzing tested Snoopy somewhere on the West side of Canada at a lumber yard. Snoopy went in the tank alongside the lumber and must have been pretty well disinfected, but the scary bit was that they released the pressure almost instantaneously, with a bang. That test was ?to only 400' so not really sufficient for a Nekton, but it might still be of interest since I think it's relatively close to you and probably was inexpensive. > > > > >Best, > >Alec? > > > >On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >Hank, >>? >>There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. >>The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. >>? >>A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. >>Go to the WHOI website for info >>? >>? >>Joe >> >> >>From: hank pronk >> >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test >> >> >> >>Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test? my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West.? >>Hank >> >> >>From: Phil Nuytten >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >> >> >> >>Hi, Hugh >>As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. >>Phil? >>From: vbra676539 at aol.com >>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM >>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. >>Vance >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Hugh Fulton >>To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' >>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >> >> >>Vance,? Yep that sounds about right. >>Are there any nasties to using it? >>Chs Hugh >>? >>? >>? >>From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley >>Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >> >>Hugh, >>HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. >>Vance >> >>Sent from my iPhone >> >>On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: >>Vance,? I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on.? I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. >>>Hugh >>>? >>>From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com >>>Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. >>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>> >>>One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. >>>Vance >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: JimToddPsub >>>To: personal_submersibles >>>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>Vance, >>>From Leeco Steel's website: >>>? >>>A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. >>>? >>>Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516.? I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. >>>? >>>Jim >>>? >>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: >>>Jim, >>>>A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). >>>>Vance >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: JimToddPsub >>>>To: personal_submersibles >>>>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm >>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>>Greg, >>>>I should have clarified that.? It was a cut-and-paste from a web site.? I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises.? That was the case in this instance. >>>>Jim >>>>? >>>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: >>>>Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. >>>>>? >>>>>Greg >>>>>? >>>>>From:"JimToddPsub at aol.com" >>>>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM >>>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>>>? >>>>>Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: >>>>>? >>>>>ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . >>>>> >>>>>It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. >>>>> >>>>>For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. >>>>> >>>>>For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): >>>>> >>>>>Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% >>>>>Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% >>>>>Phosphorous 0.035% max >>>>>Sulphur 0.035% max >>>>>Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% >>>>>? >>>>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: >>>>> >>>>>>Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. >>>>>> >>>>>>Jon >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: >>>>>>Hello, >>>>>>>? >>>>>>>What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. >>>>>>>? >>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>Chris >>>>>>>? >>>>>>>Christopher Cave >>>>>>> >>>>>>>christophercave at yahoo.com >>>>>>>? >>>>>>>? >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>? >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ >>> >>>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>>http://www.eset.com/ >>> >>> >>>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ >>> >>>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>>http://www.eset.com/ >>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ >> >>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >>http://www.eset.com/ >> >>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ >> >>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >>http://www.eset.com/ >> >>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From siblack10000 at googlemail.com Thu Oct 24 08:44:40 2013 From: siblack10000 at googlemail.com (simon blackburn) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 13:44:40 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch In-Reply-To: <8D09ECB67CA36EB-13F0-B51@webmail-d153.sysops.aol.com> References: <1382554965.26877.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D09ECB67CA36EB-13F0-B51@webmail-d153.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: James Looks great, well done with all the hard work. Regards Simon On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 1:26 PM, wrote: > George left the sub alone while tacking on the aft extension because the > passenger section was exactly that, an add-on, and he figured to deal with > it as its own issue. Otherwise he would have to do exactly what you are > talking about, which is to re-distribute everything and then be forced to > do a new weights and balances chart. > > I used to talk to him about this, figuring the passenger would be better > in the belly and in front so he/she could see and participate more fully > (like Snoopy). But the L-version sub in George's mind was a solo sub with a > rumble seat, period. Anything beyond that was up to the individual builder. > He didn't mind, but he wasn't going to join in. > > As a side note, they miscalculated on the K600 and it wouldn't float > correctly, so added the L-style hull section to hold the back end up, then > shifted all the lead back there to balance it. Had to do it at the very > last minute, but it worked sufficiently for Lloyd's to buy off on it. > > Had they built hull #2, according to George, it would have had a central > conning tower on the 6' hull length. Even though it is dimensionally the > same as a K-350L, it was never intended for two people. > > Vance > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Suhr > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 12:45 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch > > James, Congratulations on your first launch! I am sorry to hear that you > had to contend with some complaints, but you handled it well by moving > along. Some people... > > Anyway, I love you sub! Good job, and again, congrats on your first > launch. ~ Douglas S. > > > On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 3:02 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >> Rick, >> >> I have an accurate CAD model of a stock 350 hull and pods with assigned >> material densities. The software can make short work of determining changes >> in the longitudinal CG and what effects shifting the pods have. We would >> have to agree on a vertical datum, say the surface Edge of a hemihead for >> example. >> >> As it lays now, the CG is right under the pilots butt, but it looks like >> George did not account accurately for the changes in buoyancy once >> launched. The trick would be trying to guess how far back to shift the CG. >> I can do this for you on my next group of days off if you'd like. >> >> However, I like James idea of external movable weights as a better >> solution because you still have this 400 lb light condition to contend with >> anyway. >> >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> >> ------------------------------ >> * From: * Land N Sea ; >> * To: * Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; >> * Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch >> * Sent: * Wed, Oct 23, 2013 6:13:05 PM >> >> I haven?t attached my pods yet to the pressure hull and after hearing >> about the aft positive buoyancy issue from a number of K-350 owner/builders >> I am now contemplating moving my pods aft one frame. I have all ready >> installed my drop weight threw hulls so I would have to extend the cross >> bar forward that goes between the pods for that plus not having any >> engineering experience, it would purely be a guess on what it would do to >> the trim. I doubt it would have the reverse effect and transfer the >> buoyancy problem to the front but not sure. >> One thought I had was to bolt them on per plans but be able to adjust >> them aft as needed to attain the proper trim and then when I find the magic >> spot, weld in the bell reducers I have and connect the power cables. Any >> thoughts out their pro or con? >> >> Rick >> >> *From:* James Frankland >> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2013 2:17 AM >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch >> >> What im going to do is fix 100Kg under the aft tank, and then make the >> rest in blocks that can be moved around. Then divers can place them with >> straps to the underside somewhere until its balanced. Will make the blocks >> at the weekend. >> >> On 22 October 2013 20:41, wrote: >> >>> ** >>> Hi James congratulations, >>> - seems more and more that to light is a normal standard on launching >>> Psubs. >>> >>> May do not install fix weight in the stern next time. Install >>> it lose in the center and than trim it longitudinal on dive station >>> with move it forward or aftward or more in or out. >>> Its the fastest way to figure out the right weight and trim. >>> >>> By the way Alan our overalls are red, and it help the skipper >>> to figure out which guy is in his crew and which not.. >>> Also the guys with the brighter (many times washed out) overalls are the >>> workers in the crew.. >>> >>> http://www.hansesail.com/uploads/tx_gorillary/2013_38_euronauttauchtauf_01.jpg >>> >>> :-) vbr Carsten >>> >>> >>> >>> "Alan" schrieb: >>> >>> Congratulations James, >>> Look forward to the coming videos. >>> What a pain having to cut things short after all that effort. >>> Maybe you cold buy everyone a set of orange overalls like Carsten >>> does, to make things look professional. >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On 22/10/2013, at 10:06 PM, James Frankland < >>> jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: >>> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I got my boat in the water at the weekend for the first time. Put the >>> pictures up here. >>> >>> http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/operations.htm >>> >>> I didnt get any leaks at all, so i was super happy. I wasnt really >>> expecting to try and dive and would have been happy with just no leaks and >>> a float test, but everything worked fine, so i gave it a go. Unfortunately >>> i didnt have enough lead. I added 90KG (198lb) of lead, but it still >>> wouldnt go down. What i didnt mention on the website was that i was forced >>> to stop testing because the harbour master came along to say that they had >>> had an anonymous phone call from some bloody do-gooder who pointed out that >>> we were using the comercial area of the harbour and didnt have a proper >>> comercial dive team, which is officially a legal requirement. So even >>> though i had full permission from the harbour, i was forced to stop on a >>> technicality. They think it was some missery that has the hump on with >>> harbour and just wanted to be awkward. Shame because I was about to load a >>> pile of anchor chain into the boat to get me more weight. >>> >>> The boat did seem to be very light at the back and i kept squirting air >>> into the forward tank to level it out. Thinking about it, i suspect that >>> the forward tank was settling into the correct position and it was the aft >>> tank that was riding high. Just need to get some weight at the back. I >>> had a slight list to port as well which i've no idea where that came from. >>> Again i will trim that up. >>> >>> Anyway, i was really pleased with how it went on my first day. Im >>> meeting my divers tonight who took a load of underwater pics apparently, so >>> i will see how they look later. Might put some on the web if they are any >>> good. >>> >>> Kind Regards >>> James >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Carsten Standfu? >>> Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik >>> Heinrich Reck Str.12A >>> 18211 Admannshagen >>> >>> 0172 8464 420 >>> WWW.Euronaut.org >>> Carsten at euronaut.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> ------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Alec.Smyth at covisint.com Thu Oct 24 09:11:13 2013 From: Alec.Smyth at covisint.com (Smyth, Alec) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 13:11:13 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch In-Reply-To: <8D09ECB67CA36EB-13F0-B51@webmail-d153.sysops.aol.com> References: <1382554965.26877.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D09ECB67CA36EB-13F0-B51@webmail-d153.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <2fdc08856283421e8c38b36b34b3a5f4@BN1PR05MB486.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Thanks for that Vance, your last sentence were quite revealing to me. My new project is a long two person, quite like the 350 in layout of the pressure hull, although with saddle tanks and a big dome in the bow. The weights and balances just kept leading me to a central tower despite the fact it looked better a little forward. It?s ended up with a centered tower, and the battery pods slightly aft to compensate for the weight of the passenger up front. Best, Alec From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 8:27 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch George left the sub alone while tacking on the aft extension because the passenger section was exactly that, an add-on, and he figured to deal with it as its own issue. Otherwise he would have to do exactly what you are talking about, which is to re-distribute everything and then be forced to do a new weights and balances chart. I used to talk to him about this, figuring the passenger would be better in the belly and in front so he/she could see and participate more fully (like Snoopy). But the L-version sub in George's mind was a solo sub with a rumble seat, period. Anything beyond that was up to the individual builder. He didn't mind, but he wasn't going to join in. As a side note, they miscalculated on the K600 and it wouldn't float correctly, so added the L-style hull section to hold the back end up, then shifted all the lead back there to balance it. Had to do it at the very last minute, but it worked sufficiently for Lloyd's to buy off on it. Had they built hull #2, according to George, it would have had a central conning tower on the 6' hull length. Even though it is dimensionally the same as a K-350L, it was never intended for two people. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Suhr > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 12:45 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch James, Congratulations on your first launch! I am sorry to hear that you had to contend with some complaints, but you handled it well by moving along. Some people... Anyway, I love you sub! Good job, and again, congrats on your first launch. ~ Douglas S. On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 3:02 PM, Joe Perkel > wrote: Rick, I have an accurate CAD model of a stock 350 hull and pods with assigned material densities. The software can make short work of determining changes in the longitudinal CG and what effects shifting the pods have. We would have to agree on a vertical datum, say the surface Edge of a hemihead for example. As it lays now, the CG is right under the pilots butt, but it looks like George did not account accurately for the changes in buoyancy once launched. The trick would be trying to guess how far back to shift the CG. I can do this for you on my next group of days off if you'd like. However, I like James idea of external movable weights as a better solution because you still have this 400 lb light condition to contend with anyway. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Land N Sea >; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch Sent: Wed, Oct 23, 2013 6:13:05 PM I haven?t attached my pods yet to the pressure hull and after hearing about the aft positive buoyancy issue from a number of K-350 owner/builders I am now contemplating moving my pods aft one frame. I have all ready installed my drop weight threw hulls so I would have to extend the cross bar forward that goes between the pods for that plus not having any engineering experience, it would purely be a guess on what it would do to the trim. I doubt it would have the reverse effect and transfer the buoyancy problem to the front but not sure. One thought I had was to bolt them on per plans but be able to adjust them aft as needed to attain the proper trim and then when I find the magic spot, weld in the bell reducers I have and connect the power cables. Any thoughts out their pro or con? Rick From: James Frankland Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 2:17 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch What im going to do is fix 100Kg under the aft tank, and then make the rest in blocks that can be moved around. Then divers can place them with straps to the underside somewhere until its balanced. Will make the blocks at the weekend. On 22 October 2013 20:41, > wrote: Hi James congratulations, - seems more and more that to light is a normal standard on launching Psubs. May do not install fix weight in the stern next time. Install it lose in the center and than trim it longitudinal on dive station with move it forward or aftward or more in or out. Its the fastest way to figure out the right weight and trim. By the way Alan our overalls are red, and it help the skipper to figure out which guy is in his crew and which not.. Also the guys with the brighter (many times washed out) overalls are the workers in the crew.. http://www.hansesail.com/uploads/tx_gorillary/2013_38_euronauttauchtauf_01.jpg :-) vbr Carsten "Alan" > schrieb: Congratulations James, Look forward to the coming videos. What a pain having to cut things short after all that effort. Maybe you cold buy everyone a set of orange overalls like Carsten does, to make things look professional. Alan Sent from my iPad On 22/10/2013, at 10:06 PM, James Frankland > wrote: Hi All, I got my boat in the water at the weekend for the first time. Put the pictures up here. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/operations.htm I didnt get any leaks at all, so i was super happy. I wasnt really expecting to try and dive and would have been happy with just no leaks and a float test, but everything worked fine, so i gave it a go. Unfortunately i didnt have enough lead. I added 90KG (198lb) of lead, but it still wouldnt go down. What i didnt mention on the website was that i was forced to stop testing because the harbour master came along to say that they had had an anonymous phone call from some bloody do-gooder who pointed out that we were using the comercial area of the harbour and didnt have a proper comercial dive team, which is officially a legal requirement. So even though i had full permission from the harbour, i was forced to stop on a technicality. They think it was some missery that has the hump on with harbour and just wanted to be awkward. Shame because I was about to load a pile of anchor chain into the boat to get me more weight. The boat did seem to be very light at the back and i kept squirting air into the forward tank to level it out. Thinking about it, i suspect that the forward tank was settling into the correct position and it was the aft tank that was riding high. Just need to get some weight at the back. I had a slight list to port as well which i've no idea where that came from. Again i will trim that up. Anyway, i was really pleased with how it went on my first day. Im meeting my divers tonight who took a load of underwater pics apparently, so i will see how they look later. Might put some on the web if they are any good. Kind Regards James _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 09:25:04 2013 From: jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com (greg cottrell) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 06:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 In-Reply-To: <8D09ECB67CA36EB-13F0-B51@webmail-d153.sysops.aol.com> References: <1382554965.26877.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D09ECB67CA36EB-13F0-B51@webmail-d153.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1382621104.50248.YahooMailNeo@web121902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> George attributed the miscalculation in the weight of the 600 to second guessing the thickness of the heads. His original design?called for?thinner heads but someone (can't remember who) that George respected suggested that they should be thicker. George used the thicker heads and then found that the sub wouldn't float. He had the hull lengthened by Bath Iron Works to get the needed buoyancy back. He said he was amazed at how fast they turned the job around- I think it was only a?few days. ? Greg ? ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 8:26 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch George left the sub alone while tacking on the aft extension?because the passenger section was exactly that,?an add-on, and he figured to deal with it as its own issue. Otherwise he would have to do exactly what you are talking about, which is to re-distribute everything and then be forced to do a new weights and balances chart. ? I used to talk to him about this, figuring the passenger would be better in the belly and in front so he/she could see and participate more fully (like Snoopy). But the L-version sub in?George's mind was a solo sub with a rumble seat, period. Anything beyond that was up to the individual builder. He didn't mind, but he wasn't going to join in. ? As a side note, they miscalculated on the K600 and it wouldn't float correctly,?so added the L-style hull section to hold the back end up, then shifted all the lead back there to balance it. Had to do it at the very last minute, but it worked sufficiently for Lloyd's to buy off on it. ? Had they built hull #2,? according to George, it would have had a central conning tower on the 6' hull length. Even though it is dimensionally the same as a K-350L, it was never intended for two people. Vance -----Original Message-----From: Douglas Suhr To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 12:45 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch James, Congratulations on your first launch! I am sorry to hear that you had to contend with some complaints, but you handled it well by moving along. Some people...? Anyway, I love you sub! Good job, and again, congrats on your first launch. ~ Douglas S.? On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 3:02 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: Rick, > >I have an accurate CAD model of a stock 350 hull and pods with assigned material densities. The software can make short work of determining changes in the longitudinal CG and what effects shifting the pods have. We would have to agree on a vertical datum, say the surface Edge of a hemihead for example. > >As it lays now, the CG is right under the pilots butt, but it looks like George did not account accurately for the changes in buoyancy once launched. The trick would be trying to guess how far back to shift the CG. I can do this for you on my next group of days off if you'd like. > >However, I like James idea of external movable weights as a better solution because you still have this 400 lb light condition to contend with anyway. >JoeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > >________________________________ >From: Land N Sea ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch Sent: Wed, Oct 23, 2013 6:13:05 PM >I haven?t attached my pods yet to the pressure hull and after hearing about the aft positive buoyancy issue from a number of K-350 owner/builders I am now contemplating moving my pods aft one frame. I have all ready installed my drop weight threw hulls so I would have to extend the cross bar forward that goes between the pods for that plus not having any engineering experience, it would purely be a guess on what it would do to the trim. I doubt it would have the reverse effect and transfer the buoyancy problem to the front but not sure. >One thought I had was to bolt them on per plans but be able to adjust them aft as needed to attain the proper trim and then when I find the magic spot, weld in the bell reducers I have and connect the power cables. Any thoughts out their pro or con? > >Rick > > >From: James Frankland >Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 2:17 AM >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Launch > > >What im going to do is fix 100Kg under the aft tank, and then make the rest in blocks that can be moved around.? Then divers can place them with straps to the underside somewhere until its balanced.? Will make the blocks at the weekend. >On 22 October 2013 20:41, wrote: >Hi James congratulations, >>- seems more and more that to light is a normal standard on launching Psubs. >> >>May do not install fix weight in the stern next time. Install >>it lose in the center and than trim it longitudinal on dive station >>with move it forward or aftward or more in or out. >>Its the fastest way to figure out the right weight and trim. >> >>By the way Alan our overalls are red, and it help the skipper to figure out which guy is in his crew and which not..Also the guys with the brighter (many times washed out) overalls are the workers in the crew.. http://www.hansesail.com/uploads/tx_gorillary/2013_38_euronauttauchtauf_01.jpg:-) vbr Carsten "Alan" schrieb: >>Congratulations James, >>>Look forward to the coming videos. >>>What a pain having to cut things short after all that effort. >>>Maybe you cold buy everyone a set of orange overalls like Carsten >>>does, to make things look professional. >>>Alan >>>Sent from my iPad >>>On 22/10/2013, at 10:06 PM, James Frankland wrote: >>>Hi All, >>>> >>>>I got my boat in the water at the weekend for the first time.? Put the pictures up here. >>>> >>>>http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/operations.htm >>>> >>>>I didnt get any leaks at all, so i was super happy.? I wasnt really expecting to try and dive and would have been happy with just no leaks and a float test, but everything worked fine, so i gave it a go.? Unfortunately i didnt have enough lead.? I added 90KG (198lb) of lead, but it still wouldnt go down.? What i didnt mention on the website was that i was forced to stop testing because the harbour master came along to say that they had had an anonymous phone call from some bloody do-gooder who pointed out that we were using the comercial area of the harbour and didnt have a proper comercial dive team, which is officially a legal requirement.? So even though i had full permission from the harbour, i was forced to stop on a technicality.? They think it was some missery that has the hump on with harbour and just wanted to be awkward.? Shame because I was about to load a pile of anchor chain into the boat to get me more weight. >>>> >>>>The boat did seem to be very light at the back and i kept squirting air into the forward tank to level it out.? Thinking about it, i suspect that the forward tank was settling into the correct position and it was the aft tank that was riding high.? Just need to get some weight at the back.? I had a slight list to port as well which i've no idea where that came from.? Again i will trim that up. >>>> >>>>Anyway, i was really pleased with how it went on my first day.? Im meeting my divers tonight who took a load of underwater pics apparently, so i will see how they look later.? Might put some on the web if they are any good. >>>> >>>>Kind RegardsJames >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles? >> >>-- >> >>Carsten Standfu? >>Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik >>Heinrich Reck Str.12A >>18211 Admannshagen >> >>0172 8464 420 >>http://www.euronaut.org/ >>Carsten at euronaut.org >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > >________________________________ >_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 10:14:55 2013 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 07:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 In-Reply-To: <1382621104.50248.YahooMailNeo@web121902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382624095.23050.YahooMailBasic@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> It was an engineer hired by the company that commissioned and purchased the 600. His calculation requirements for the heads came out a little bit thicker than what George had calculated. I believe George spec'd .5 inch and the company's engineer spec'd .5625 inch. -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/24/13, greg cottrell wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Thursday, October 24, 2013, 9:25 AM George attributed the miscalculation in the weight of the 600 to second guessing the thickness of the heads. His original design?called for?thinner heads but someone (can't remember who) that George respected suggested that they should be thicker. George used the thicker heads and then found that the sub wouldn't float. He had the hull lengthened by Bath Iron Works to get the needed buoyancy back. He said he was amazed at how fast they turned the job around- I think it was only a?few days. ? Greg ? From jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 10:23:53 2013 From: jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com (greg cottrell) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 07:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 In-Reply-To: <1382624095.23050.YahooMailBasic@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382621104.50248.YahooMailNeo@web121902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382624095.23050.YahooMailBasic@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382624633.12866.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I thought that George said they were .625" but I could be wrong. ? ________________________________ From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:14 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 It was an engineer hired by the company that commissioned and purchased the 600.? His calculation requirements for the heads came out a little bit thicker than what George had calculated.? I believe George spec'd .5 inch and the company's engineer spec'd .5625 inch. -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/24/13, greg cottrell wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Thursday, October 24, 2013, 9:25 AM George attributed the miscalculation in the weight of the 600 to second guessing the thickness of the heads. His original design?called for?thinner heads but someone (can't remember who) that George respected suggested that they should be thicker. George used the thicker heads and then found that the sub wouldn't float. He had the hull lengthened by Bath Iron Works to get the needed buoyancy back. He said he was amazed at how fast they turned the job around- I think it was only a?few days. ? Greg ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Oct 24 10:38:30 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 10:38:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 In-Reply-To: <1382624633.12866.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1382621104.50248.YahooMailNeo@web121902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382624095.23050.YahooMailBasic@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382624633.12866.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D09EDDD759747C-2598-C1FE@webmail-m290.sysops.aol.com> PC-8 has 3/8" wall thickness on the hull cylinder, the same as the 600, but was rated 200 feet deeper by ABS, even though it has a larger radius (21" as opposed to 18"). The ring stiffeners on the 8 are external and the conning tower larger. Makes you wonder what the deal is for figuring operating depth. Perry went to half inch for PS-2 which was the same boat but rated at 1000'. Hmmm. Vance -----Original Message----- From: greg cottrell To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 10:24 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 I thought that George said they were .625" but I could be wrong. From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:14 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 It was an engineer hired by the company that commissioned and purchased the 600. His calculation requirements for the heads came out a little bit thicker than what George had calculated. I believe George spec'd .5 inch and the company's engineer spec'd .5625 inch. -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/24/13, greg cottrell wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Thursday, October 24, 2013, 9:25 AM George attributed the miscalculation in the weight of the 600 to second guessing the thickness of the heads. His original design called for thinner heads but someone (can't remember who) that George respected suggested that they should be thicker. George used the thicker heads and then found that the sub wouldn't float. He had the hull lengthened by Bath Iron Works to get the needed buoyancy back. He said he was amazed at how fast they turned the job around- I think it was only a few days. Greg _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Thu Oct 24 10:41:02 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 10:41:02 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 In-Reply-To: <1382624633.12866.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1382621104.50248.YahooMailNeo@web121902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382624095.23050.YahooMailBasic@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382624633.12866.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5269317E.9020601@psubs.org> I'll check the documentation I have to see if it's listed. You may be correct because there's a noticeable filled in lip between the head and the hull due to the difference in thickness which I don't think would be as apparent with only a 9/16 head. On 10/24/2013 10:23 AM, greg cottrell wrote: > I thought that George said they were .625" but I could be wrong. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Thu Oct 24 11:18:46 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 11:18:46 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 In-Reply-To: <8D09EDDD759747C-2598-C1FE@webmail-m290.sysops.aol.com> References: <1382621104.50248.YahooMailNeo@web121902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382624095.23050.YahooMailBasic@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382624633.12866.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D09EDDD759747C-2598-C1FE@webmail-m290.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <52693A56.1020102@psubs.org> That must be due in large part to whatever is requested by the builder. I believe ABS requires a sub only sustain 1.25 times the pressure of the requested rating however George appeared to feel better with a larger safety margin, 2x (+ or -). If you run the numbers on the K350 for example, you'll see that it theoretically (by the numbers) survives to 800 feet or so. Jon On 10/24/2013 10:38 AM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: > PC-8 has 3/8" wall thickness on the hull cylinder, the same as the > 600, but was rated 200 feet deeper by ABS, even though it has a larger > radius (21" as opposed to 18"). The ring stiffeners on the 8 are > external and the conning tower larger. Makes you wonder what the deal > is for figuring operating depth. Perry went to half inch for PS-2 > which was the same boat but rated at 1000'. Hmmm. > Vance > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Thu Oct 24 11:25:52 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 16:25:52 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 In-Reply-To: <52693A56.1020102@psubs.org> References: <1382621104.50248.YahooMailNeo@web121902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382624095.23050.YahooMailBasic@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382624633.12866.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D09EDDD759747C-2598-C1FE@webmail-m290.sysops.aol.com> <52693A56.1020102@psubs.org> Message-ID: Hi Jon, Last time i ran the K350 on the spreadsheet, i got full collapse at something like 1100ft. From you comment there, maybe ive got it wrong? On 24 October 2013 16:18, Jon Wallace wrote: > > That must be due in large part to whatever is requested by the builder. I > believe ABS requires a sub only sustain 1.25 times the pressure of the > requested rating however George appeared to feel better with a larger > safety margin, 2x (+ or -). If you run the numbers on the K350 for > example, you'll see that it theoretically (by the numbers) survives to 800 > feet or so. > > Jon > > > > On 10/24/2013 10:38 AM, vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: > > PC-8 has 3/8" wall thickness on the hull cylinder, the same as the 600, > but was rated 200 feet deeper by ABS, even though it has a larger radius > (21" as opposed to 18"). The ring stiffeners on the 8 are external and the > conning tower larger. Makes you wonder what the deal is for figuring > operating depth. Perry went to half inch for PS-2 which was the same > boat but rated at 1000'. Hmmm. > Vance > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 11:34:02 2013 From: jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com (greg cottrell) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 08:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 In-Reply-To: <8D09EDDD759747C-2598-C1FE@webmail-m290.sysops.aol.com> References: <1382621104.50248.YahooMailNeo@web121902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382624095.23050.YahooMailBasic@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382624633.12866.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D09EDDD759747C-2598-C1FE@webmail-m290.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1382628842.85751.YahooMailNeo@web121902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Vance, ? The answer is that George did not?assign depths to?his own designs as deep as they would really go. ? I once did some calcs on the K-250 with Cliff's spreadsheet and was surprised to see that the estimated depth rating was over 500 ft. (I also found that the size and spacing of the frames was surprisingly good). When I mentioned this to George he said "Really? How did that happen?!!" But then went on to tell me that his target safety factor was?more than?two to one. I'm sure that if we run the numbers on the K-600 we will find that it could have been rated to go much deeper. ? Incidentally, George was not very comfortable selling plans for the 600 because he thought it was just too deep for the average Joe to be messing around with. ? Greg ? ? ? ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 PC-8 has 3/8" wall thickness on the hull cylinder, the same as the 600, but was rated 200 feet deeper by ABS, even though it has a larger radius (21" as opposed to 18"). The ring stiffeners on the 8?are external and the conning tower larger. Makes you wonder what the deal is for figuring operating depth.?Perry went to half inch for PS-2 which was the same boat?but rated at 1000'. Hmmm. Vance -----Original Message----- From: greg cottrell To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 10:24 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 I thought that George said they were .625" but I could be wrong. ? ________________________________ From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:14 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 It was an engineer hired by the company that commissioned and purchased the 600.? His calculation requirements for the heads came out a little bit thicker than what George had calculated.? I believe George spec'd .5 inch and the company's engineer spec'd .5625 inch. -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/24/13, greg cottrell wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Thursday, October 24, 2013, 9:25 AM George attributed the miscalculation in the weight of the 600 to second guessing the thickness of the heads. His original design?called for?thinner heads but someone (can't remember who) that George respected suggested that they should be thicker. George used the thicker heads and then found that the sub wouldn't float. He had the hull lengthened by Bath Iron Works to get the needed buoyancy back. He said he was amazed at how fast they turned the job around- I think it was only a?few days. ? Greg ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cast55 at telus.net Thu Oct 24 11:39:42 2013 From: cast55 at telus.net (cast55 at telus.net) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 09:39:42 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 In-Reply-To: <8D09EDDD759747C-2598-C1FE@webmail-m290.sysops.aol.com> References: <1382621104.50248.YahooMailNeo@web121902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382624095.23050.YahooMailBasic@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382624633.12866.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D09EDDD759747C-2598-C1FE@webmail-m290.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <31f27ae8-63b0-43a9-af89-97945f689785@email.android.com> External rings will always give you a stronger hull compared to internal for the same hull thickness and ring spacing. The downside is that the welds have to be perfect, but any weld shrinkage that may occur actually acts to deform the hull in a way that increases its strength over that of the nominal geometry. Sean vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: > >PC-8 has 3/8" wall thickness on the hull cylinder, the same as the 600, >but was rated 200 feet deeper by ABS, even though it has a larger >radius (21" as opposed to 18"). The ring stiffeners on the 8 are >external and the conning tower larger. Makes you wonder what the deal >is for figuring operating depth. Perry went to half inch for PS-2 which >was the same boat but rated at 1000'. Hmmm. >Vance > > >-----Original Message----- >From: greg cottrell >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 10:24 am >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 > > > >I thought that George said they were .625" but I could be wrong. > > > > > >From: Jon Wallace >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:14 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 > > >It was an engineer hired by the company that commissioned and purchased >the 600. His calculation requirements for the heads came out a little >bit thicker than what George had calculated. I believe George spec'd >.5 inch and the company's engineer spec'd .5625 inch. > >-------------------------------------------- >On Thu, 10/24/13, greg cottrell wrote: > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > >Date: Thursday, October 24, 2013, 9:25 AM > >George attributed the miscalculation in the weight >of the 600 to second guessing the thickness of the heads. >His original design called for thinner heads but >someone (can't remember who) that George respected >suggested that they should be thicker. George used the >thicker heads and then found that the sub wouldn't >float. He had the hull lengthened by Bath Iron Works to get >the needed buoyancy back. He >said he was amazed at how fast they turned the job around- I >think it was only a few days. > >Greg > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 24 12:07:56 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 09:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: <1382531589.7964.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8D09D90E6F7E85B-1960-3B717@webmail-d268.sysops.aol.com> <52671495.6a8a420a.25a3.ffff96e5@mx.google.com> <9A717C1F-0CD4-4457-9B5B-E29C4D61383B@AOL.com> <5267312a.63b9440a.2225.3acb@mx.google.com> <8D09DAD42DC444C-1884-3D49F@webmail-m232.sysops.aol.com> <1382530207.7939.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382531589.7964.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382630876.40219.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, I just heard from WHOI, they tell me there is no chamber in the Pacific North West.?? They suggest talking with the University of Washington.? I am sure Dr Nuytten would have mentioned it if there were one down there.? Hank ? From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:33:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, ? There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. ? A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. Go to the WHOI website for info ? ? Joe From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test? my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West.? Hank From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hi, Hugh As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. Phil? From: vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Fulton To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance,? Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh ? ? ? From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Vance,? I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on.? I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. >Hugh >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com >Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > >One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. >Vance >-----Original Message----- >From: JimToddPsub >To: personal_submersibles >Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: >? >A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. >? >Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516.? I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. >? >Jim >? >In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: >Jim, >>A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). >>Vance >>-----Original Message----- >>From: JimToddPsub >>To: personal_submersibles >>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>Greg, >>I should have clarified that.? It was a cut-and-paste from a web site.? I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises.? That was the case in this instance. >>Jim >>? >>In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: >>Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. >>>? >>>Greg >>>? >>>From:"JimToddPsub at aol.com" >>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>? >>>Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: >>>? >>>ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . >>> >>>It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. >>> >>>For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. >>> >>>For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): >>> >>>Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% >>>Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% >>>Phosphorous 0.035% max >>>Sulphur 0.035% max >>>Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% >>>? >>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: >>> >>>>Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. >>>> >>>>Jon >>>> >>>> >>>>On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: >>>>Hello, >>>>>? >>>>>What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. >>>>>? >>>>>Thanks, >>>>>Chris >>>>>? >>>>>Christopher Cave >>>>> >>>>>christophercave at yahoo.com >>>>>? >>>>>? >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ > > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 12:09:08 2013 From: jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com (greg cottrell) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 09:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 In-Reply-To: <31f27ae8-63b0-43a9-af89-97945f689785@email.android.com> References: <1382621104.50248.YahooMailNeo@web121902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382624095.23050.YahooMailBasic@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382624633.12866.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D09EDDD759747C-2598-C1FE@webmail-m290.sysops.aol.com> <31f27ae8-63b0-43a9-af89-97945f689785@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1382630948.10709.YahooMailNeo@web121905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Sean, ? You are correct. Another advantage external rings have is that pushing in on a stiffener (internal frames) reallies on compression strength of the steel and tends to cause the ring to "cone" over as pressure is applied. When it cones, it immediately loses strength because of the changing geometry. On the other hand, pulling in on a ring from the inside (as with external frames) is a tensile load and tends to allow the ring to remain perpendicular longer. Eventually the external ring will get "wavy" and fail also. ? I?think internal rings are better for PSUBS however, because?most homebuilders?are usually using less than perfect methods of welding/ fabrication? and the internal rings are more forgiving. ? Greg ? ? ? ? ________________________________ From: "cast55 at telus.net" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 External rings will always give you a stronger hull compared to internal for the same hull thickness and ring spacing. The downside is that the welds have to be perfect, but any weld shrinkage that may occur actually acts to deform the hull in a way that increases its strength over that of the nominal geometry. Sean vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: PC-8 has 3/8" wall thickness on the hull cylinder, the same as the 600, but was rated 200 feet deeper by ABS, even though it has a larger radius (21" as opposed to 18"). The ring stiffeners on the 8?are external and the conning tower larger. Makes you wonder what the deal is for figuring operating depth.?Perry went to half inch for PS-2 which was the same boat?but rated at 1000'. Hmmm. >Vance >-----Original Message----- >From: greg cottrell >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 10:24 am >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 > > >I thought that George said they were .625" but I could be wrong. >? > > > >________________________________ >From: Jon Wallace >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:14 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 > > >It was an engineer hired by the company that commissioned and purchased the 600.? His calculation requirements for the heads came out a little bit thicker than what George had calculated.? I believe George spec'd .5 inch and the company's engineer spec'd .5625 inch. > >-------------------------------------------- >On Thu, 10/24/13, greg cottrell wrote: > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 >To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >Date: Thursday, October 24, 2013, 9:25 AM > >George attributed the miscalculation in the weight >of the 600 to second guessing the thickness of the heads. >His original design?called for?thinner heads but >someone (can't remember who) that George respected >suggested that they should be thicker. George used the >thicker heads and then found that the sub wouldn't >float. He had the hull lengthened by Bath Iron Works to get >the needed buoyancy back. He >said he was amazed at how fast they turned the job around- I >think it was only a?few days. >? >Greg >? > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >________________________________ > >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Thu Oct 24 12:20:11 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 12:20:11 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 In-Reply-To: References: <1382621104.50248.YahooMailNeo@web121902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382624095.23050.YahooMailBasic@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382624633.12866.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D09EDDD759747C-2598-C1FE@webmail-m290.sysops.aol.com> <52693A56.1020102@psubs.org> Message-ID: <526948BB.4040703@psubs.org> Sounds high, James. I show 883 feet (fresh water) with no safety factor, and 664 (FFW) with ABS safety factors. Jon On 10/24/2013 11:25 AM, James Frankland wrote: > Hi Jon, > Last time i ran the K350 on the spreadsheet, i got full collapse at > something like 1100ft. From you comment there, maybe ive got it wrong? > > From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Thu Oct 24 12:29:45 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 17:29:45 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 In-Reply-To: <526948BB.4040703@psubs.org> References: <1382621104.50248.YahooMailNeo@web121902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382624095.23050.YahooMailBasic@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382624633.12866.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D09EDDD759747C-2598-C1FE@webmail-m290.sysops.aol.com> <52693A56.1020102@psubs.org> <526948BB.4040703@psubs.org> Message-ID: yes, i thought so. I'll do it again. thanks On 24 October 2013 17:20, Jon Wallace wrote: > > Sounds high, James. I show 883 feet (fresh water) with no safety factor, > and 664 (FFW) with ABS safety factors. > > Jon > > > > On 10/24/2013 11:25 AM, James Frankland wrote: > >> Hi Jon, >> Last time i ran the K350 on the spreadsheet, i got full collapse at >> something like 1100ft. From you comment there, maybe ive got it wrong? >> >> >> > ______________________________**_________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.**org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/**listinfo.cgi/personal_**submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From whitestar456 at manx.net Thu Oct 24 12:52:51 2013 From: whitestar456 at manx.net (Graham Bayliss) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 17:52:51 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] first launch In-Reply-To: References: <1382621104.50248.YahooMailNeo@web121902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382624095.23050.YahooMailBasic@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382624633.12866.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D09EDDD759747C-2598-C1FE@webmail-m290.sysops.aol.com> <52693A56.1020102@psubs.org> <526948BB.4040703@psubs.org> Message-ID: <00a201ced0d9$7b08ad90$711a08b0$@net> Congratulations James she looks great i will get mine in the water next year i hope. Regards Graham -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Oct 24 12:55:46 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 12:55:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 In-Reply-To: <1382628842.85751.YahooMailNeo@web121902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1382621104.50248.YahooMailNeo@web121902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382624095.23050.YahooMailBasic@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382624633.12866.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D09EDDD759747C-2598-C1FE@webmail-m290.sysops.aol.com> <1382628842.85751.YahooMailNeo@web121902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D09EF10478D9D2-1560-28FB@webmail-d170.sysops.aol.com> He told me the same thing about the 600. Too deep. I'm not surprised by the safety factor. Some Annapolis buddy of George's was a chief design guy for Navy subs and went over all the original calcs. Vance -----Original Message----- From: greg cottrell To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 11:34 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 Vance, The answer is that George did not assign depths to his own designs as deep as they would really go. I once did some calcs on the K-250 with Cliff's spreadsheet and was surprised to see that the estimated depth rating was over 500 ft. (I also found that the size and spacing of the frames was surprisingly good). When I mentioned this to George he said "Really? How did that happen?!!" But then went on to tell me that his target safety factor was more than two to one. I'm sure that if we run the numbers on the K-600 we will find that it could have been rated to go much deeper. Incidentally, George was not very comfortable selling plans for the 600 because he thought it was just too deep for the average Joe to be messing around with. Greg From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 PC-8 has 3/8" wall thickness on the hull cylinder, the same as the 600, but was rated 200 feet deeper by ABS, even though it has a larger radius (21" as opposed to 18"). The ring stiffeners on the 8 are external and the conning tower larger. Makes you wonder what the deal is for figuring operating depth. Perry went to half inch for PS-2 which was the same boat but rated at 1000'. Hmmm. Vance -----Original Message----- From: greg cottrell To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 10:24 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 I thought that George said they were .625" but I could be wrong. From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:14 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 It was an engineer hired by the company that commissioned and purchased the 600. His calculation requirements for the heads came out a little bit thicker than what George had calculated. I believe George spec'd .5 inch and the company's engineer spec'd .5625 inch. -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/24/13, greg cottrell wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Thursday, October 24, 2013, 9:25 AM George attributed the miscalculation in the weight of the 600 to second guessing the thickness of the heads. His original design called for thinner heads but someone (can't remember who) that George respected suggested that they should be thicker. George used the thicker heads and then found that the sub wouldn't float. He had the hull lengthened by Bath Iron Works to get the needed buoyancy back. He said he was amazed at how fast they turned the job around- I think it was only a few days. Greg _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Oct 24 12:57:12 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 12:57:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 In-Reply-To: <31f27ae8-63b0-43a9-af89-97945f689785@email.android.com> References: <1382621104.50248.YahooMailNeo@web121902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382624095.23050.YahooMailBasic@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382624633.12866.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D09EDDD759747C-2598-C1FE@webmail-m290.sysops.aol.com> <31f27ae8-63b0-43a9-af89-97945f689785@email.android.com> Message-ID: <8D09EF137DD3F09-1560-291B@webmail-d170.sysops.aol.com> I heard you got about a 5% reduction on strength with rings in tension, rather than compression. But it's nice to have them out of the way, which makes it worth the effort in my opinion. Vance -----Original Message----- From: cast55 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 11:40 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 External rings will always give you a stronger hull compared to internal for the same hull thickness and ring spacing. The downside is that the welds have to be perfect, but any weld shrinkage that may occur actually acts to deform the hull in a way that increases its strength over that of the nominal geometry. Sean vbra676539 at aol.com wrote: PC-8 has 3/8" wall thickness on the hull cylinder, the same as the 600, but was rated 200 feet deeper by ABS, even though it has a larger radius (21" as opposed to 18"). The ring stiffeners on the 8 are external and the conning tower larger. Makes you wonder what the deal is for figuring operating depth. Perry went to half inch for PS-2 which was the same boat but rated at 1000'. Hmmm. Vance -----Original Message----- From: greg cottrell To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 10:24 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 I thought that George said they were .625" but I could be wrong. From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:14 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 It was an engineer hired by the company that commissioned and purchased the 600. His calculation requirements for the heads came out a little bit thicker than what George had calculated. I believe George spec'd .5 inch and the company's engineer spec'd .5625 inch. -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/24/13, greg cottrell wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Thursday, October 24, 2013, 9:25 AM George attributed the miscalculation in the weight of the 600 to second guessing the thickness of the heads. His original design called for thinner heads but someone (can't remember who) that George respected suggested that they should be thicker. George used the thicker heads and then found that the sub wouldn't float. He had the hull lengthened by Bath Iron Works to get the needed buoyancy back. He said he was amazed at how fast they turned the job around- I think it was only a few days. Greg _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 13:18:09 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 10:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: <1382630876.40219.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382635089.32230.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hank,

I remember having researched this issue once upon a time, and I remember it giving me fits finding it. It's the same navy facility in Md mentioned by Alec , "Calderock," only he took it a step further having actually called them. It's very hard to find on the website, it's listed under laboratories and facilities as the "deep submergence test facility." http://www.navsea.navy.mil/nswc/carderock/pub/what/facilities/facilities_list.aspx

Elsewhere on the site you can find the agreement and cost analysis forms to download.
So Alec has discovered the prohibitive cost which puts an end to it in my book.

It turns out that the best case scenario for a test facility for us PSubbers is a guy in B.C., with a crane and a barge, (imagine that!:)! At 27k mentioned by Alec, It would be more cost effective comparatively with Calderock for a guy from Miami to drag his little PSUB on a trailer all the way to B.C., with his wife in tow for a little dip in a local lake and one heck of a sightseeing vacation!!,...Ha!

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Oct 24 13:27:09 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 13:27:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: <1382635089.32230.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382635089.32230.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D09EF56720F660-600-DC51@webmail-vd013.sysops.aol.com> Joe, That will give you something new to ponder. Now you have to design a boat around the geometric constraints of the Vancouver test tank. 7' X 9'. Let's see what comes out of that. Deepworkers, anybody? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 1:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, I remember having researched this issue once upon a time, and I remember it giving me fits finding it. It's the same navy facility in Md mentioned by Alec , "Calderock," only he took it a step further having actually called them. It's very hard to find on the website, it's listed under laboratories and facilities as the "deep submergence test facility." http://www.navsea.navy.mil/nswc/carderock/pub/what/facilities/facilities_list.aspx Elsewhere on the site you can find the agreement and cost analysis forms to download. So Alec has discovered the prohibitive cost which puts an end to it in my book. It turns out that the best case scenario for a test facility for us PSubbers is a guy in B.C., with a crane and a barge, (imagine that!:)! At 27k mentioned by Alec, It would be more cost effective comparatively with Calderock for a guy from Miami to drag his little PSUB on a trailer all the way to B.C., with his wife in tow for a little dip in a local lake and one heck of a sightseeing vacation!!,...Ha! Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 4:07:56 PM Joe, I just heard from WHOI, they tell me there is no chamber in the Pacific North West. They suggest talking with the University of Washington. I am sure Dr Nuytten would have mentioned it if there were one down there. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:33:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. Go to the WHOI website for info Joe From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West. Hank From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hi, Hugh As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. Phil From: vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Fulton To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance, Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Vance, I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on. I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516. I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: Jim, A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Greg, I should have clarified that. It was a cut-and-paste from a web site. I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises. That was the case in this instance. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. Greg From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% Phosphorous 0.035% max Sulphur 0.035% max Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. Jon On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: Hello, What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. Thanks, Chris Christopher Cave christophercave at yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 13:38:35 2013 From: jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com (greg cottrell) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 10:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 In-Reply-To: <8D09EF10478D9D2-1560-28FB@webmail-d170.sysops.aol.com> References: <1382621104.50248.YahooMailNeo@web121902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382624095.23050.YahooMailBasic@web140906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382624633.12866.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D09EDDD759747C-2598-C1FE@webmail-m290.sysops.aol.com> <1382628842.85751.YahooMailNeo@web121902.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8D09EF10478D9D2-1560-28FB@webmail-d170.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1382636315.99340.YahooMailNeo@web121904.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Yes, George's friend was a gentleman named Frank Dunham who also wrote this book- ? http://books.google.com/books?id=OaMEMwEACAAJ&dq=inauthor:%22Frank+W.+Dunham%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XVlpUsucOIrdkQfe8YGYAg&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAA ? Dunham was a great "heavy structures" engineer and helped George quite a bit with his designs. ? Greg ? ? ? ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:55 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 ?He told me the same thing about the 600. Too deep. I'm not surprised by the safety factor. Some Annapolis buddy of George's was a chief design guy for Navy subs and went over all the original calcs. Vance -----Original Message----- From: greg cottrell To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 11:34 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 Vance, The answer is that George did not?assign depths to?his own designs as deep as they would really go. I once did some calcs on the K-250 with Cliff's spreadsheet and was surprised to see that the estimated depth rating was over 500 ft. (I also found that the size and spacing of the frames was surprisingly good). When I mentioned this to George he said "Really? How did that happen?!!" But then went on to tell me that his target safety factor was?more than?two to one. I'm sure that if we run the numbers on the K-600 we will find that it could have been rated to go much deeper. Incidentally, George was not very comfortable selling plans for the 600 because he thought it was just too deep for the average Joe to be messing around with. Greg ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 PC-8 has 3/8" wall thickness on the hull cylinder, the same as the 600, but was rated 200 feet deeper by ABS, even though it has a larger radius (21" as opposed to 18"). The ring stiffeners on the 8?are external and the conning tower larger. Makes you wonder what the deal is for figuring operating depth.?Perry went to half inch for PS-2 which was the same boat?but rated at 1000'. Hmmm. Vance -----Original Message----- From: greg cottrell To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 10:24 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 I thought that George said they were .625" but I could be wrong. ? ________________________________ From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:14 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 It was an engineer hired by the company that commissioned and purchased the 600.? His calculation requirements for the heads came out a little bit thicker than what George had calculated.? I believe George spec'd .5 inch and the company's engineer spec'd .5625 inch. -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10/24/13, greg cottrell wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-600 To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Thursday, October 24, 2013, 9:25 AM George attributed the miscalculation in the weight of the 600 to second guessing the thickness of the heads. His original design?called for?thinner heads but someone (can't remember who) that George respected suggested that they should be thicker. George used the thicker heads and then found that the sub wouldn't float. He had the hull lengthened by Bath Iron Works to get the needed buoyancy back. He said he was amazed at how fast they turned the job around- I think it was only a?few days. ? Greg ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 13:45:12 2013 From: jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com (greg cottrell) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 10:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] "shallow" Deepworkers! In-Reply-To: <8D09EF56720F660-600-DC51@webmail-vd013.sysops.aol.com> References: <1382635089.32230.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D09EF56720F660-600-DC51@webmail-vd013.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1382636712.87060.YahooMailNeo@web121903.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Maybe we can all petition Phil to?design a 300 ft Deepworker version for psubbers! ? Greg ? ? ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Joe, That will give you something new to ponder. Now you have to design a boat around the geometric constraints of the Vancouver test tank. 7' X 9'. Let's see what comes out of that. Deepworkers, anybody? Vance -----Original Message-----From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 1:18 pmSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, I remember having researched this issue once upon a time, and I remember it giving me fits finding it. It's the same navy facility in Md mentioned by Alec , "Calderock," only he took it a step further having actually called them. It's very hard to find on the website, it's listed under laboratories and facilities as the "deep submergence test facility." http://www.navsea.navy.mil/nswc/carderock/pub/what/facilities/facilities_list.aspx Elsewhere on the site you can find the agreement and cost analysis forms to download. So Alec has discovered the prohibitive cost which puts an end to it in my book. It turns out that the best case scenario for a test facility for us PSubbers is a guy in B.C., with a crane and a barge, (imagine that!:)! At 27k mentioned by Alec, It would be more cost effective comparatively with Calderock for a guy from Miami to drag his little PSUB on a trailer all the way to B.C., with his wife in tow for a little dip in a local lake and one heck of a sightseeing vacation!!,...Ha! Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 4:07:56 PM Joe, I just heard from WHOI, they tell me there is no chamber in the Pacific North West.?? They suggest talking with the University of Washington.? I am sure Dr Nuytten would have mentioned it if there were one down there.? Hank ? ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:33:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, ? There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. ? A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. Go to the WHOI website for info ? ? Joe ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test? my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West.? Hank ________________________________ From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hi, Hugh As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. Phil? From: vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. Vance -----Original Message-----From: Hugh Fulton To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pmSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance,? Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh ? ? ? From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. VanceSent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Vance,? I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on.? I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. >Hugh >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com >Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > >One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. >Vance >-----Original Message----- >From: JimToddPsub >To: personal_submersibles >Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: >? >A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. >? >Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516.? I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. >? >Jim >? >In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: >Jim, >>A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). >>Vance >>-----Original Message----- >>From: JimToddPsub >>To: personal_submersibles >>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>Greg, >>I should have clarified that.? It was a cut-and-paste from a web site.? I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises.? That was the case in this instance. >>Jim >>? >>In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: >>Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. >>>? >>>Greg >>>? >>>From:"JimToddPsub at aol.com" >>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>? >>>Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: >>>? >>>ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . >>> >>>It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. >>> >>>For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. >>> >>>For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): >>> >>>Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% >>>Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% >>>Phosphorous 0.035% max >>>Sulphur 0.035% max >>>Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% >>>? >>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: >>> >>>>Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. >>>> >>>>Jon >>>> >>>> >>>>On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: >>>>Hello, >>>>>? >>>>>What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. >>>>>? >>>>>Thanks, >>>>>Chris >>>>>? >>>>>Christopher Cave >>>>> >>>>>christophercave at yahoo.com >>>>>? >>>>>? >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 24 13:45:37 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 10:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: <1382635089.32230.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382630876.40219.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382635089.32230.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382636737.67139.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, I guess I could have squeezed my Gamma into the chamber at Nuytco before I welded the MBT's back on.? I am back to plan "A" I will remove the crane from my barge and haul it to Slocan Lake in the next month and leave it there until I need it.? With the crane off, I do not need the wing tanks and it is light enough to tow behind my PU.? I need to build a winch that holds 1,000 feet of cable now. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 11:18:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, I remember having researched this issue once upon a time, and I remember it giving me fits finding it. It's the same navy facility in Md mentioned by Alec , "Calderock," only he took it a step further having actually called them. It's very hard to find on the website, it's listed under laboratories and facilities as the "deep submergence test facility." http://www.navsea.navy.mil/nswc/carderock/pub/what/facilities/facilities_list.aspx Elsewhere on the site you can find the agreement and cost analysis forms to download. So Alec has discovered the prohibitive cost which puts an end to it in my book. It turns out that the best case scenario for a test facility for us PSubbers is a guy in B.C., with a crane and a barge, (imagine that!:)! At 27k mentioned by Alec, It would be more cost effective comparatively with Calderock for a guy from Miami to drag his little PSUB on a trailer all the way to B.C., with his wife in tow for a little dip in a local lake and one heck of a sightseeing vacation!!,...Ha! Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 4:07:56 PM Joe, I just heard from WHOI, they tell me there is no chamber in the Pacific North West.?? They suggest talking with the University of Washington.? I am sure Dr Nuytten would have mentioned it if there were one down there.? Hank ? From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:33:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, ? There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. ? A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. Go to the WHOI website for info ? ? Joe From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test? my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West.? Hank From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hi, Hugh As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. Phil? From: vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. Vance -----Original Message-----From: Hugh Fulton To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pmSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance,? Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh ? ? ? From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. VanceSent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Vance,? I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on.? I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. >Hugh >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com >Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > >One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. >Vance >-----Original Message----- >From: JimToddPsub >To: personal_submersibles >Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: >? >A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. >? >Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516.? I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. >? >Jim >? >In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: >Jim, >>A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). >>Vance >>-----Original Message----- >>From: JimToddPsub >>To: personal_submersibles >>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>Greg, >>I should have clarified that.? It was a cut-and-paste from a web site.? I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises.? That was the case in this instance. >>Jim >>? >>In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: >>Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. >>>? >>>Greg >>>? >>>From:"JimToddPsub at aol.com" >>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>? >>>Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: >>>? >>>ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . >>> >>>It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. >>> >>>For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. >>> >>>For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): >>> >>>Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% >>>Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% >>>Phosphorous 0.035% max >>>Sulphur 0.035% max >>>Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% >>>? >>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: >>> >>>>Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. >>>> >>>>Jon >>>> >>>> >>>>On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: >>>>Hello, >>>>>? >>>>>What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. >>>>>? >>>>>Thanks, >>>>>Chris >>>>>? >>>>>Christopher Cave >>>>> >>>>>christophercave at yahoo.com >>>>>? >>>>>? >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 13:46:12 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 10:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: <8D09EF56720F660-600-DC51@webmail-vd013.sysops.aol.com> References: <1382635089.32230.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D09EF56720F660-600-DC51@webmail-vd013.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1382636772.17107.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Funny you should mention that Vance! ? It did not go unnoticed how easily Alec skipped on down to the Florida Keys practically whipping Snoopy out of his back pocket in the process and flinging it around like an infants mobile on that davit! Much was demonstrated as to the benefits of keeping the?weight down! ? Not being a machinist, what issues present themselves fabrication wise, to cant a K-250 dome forward (ala Deepworker) a few degrees on a taller tower? ? Joe ? ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Joe, That will give you something new to ponder. Now you have to design a boat around the geometric constraints of the Vancouver test tank. 7' X 9'. Let's see what comes out of that. Deepworkers, anybody? Vance -----Original Message-----From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 1:18 pmSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, I remember having researched this issue once upon a time, and I remember it giving me fits finding it. It's the same navy facility in Md mentioned by Alec , "Calderock," only he took it a step further having actually called them. It's very hard to find on the website, it's listed under laboratories and facilities as the "deep submergence test facility." http://www.navsea.navy.mil/nswc/carderock/pub/what/facilities/facilities_list.aspx Elsewhere on the site you can find the agreement and cost analysis forms to download. So Alec has discovered the prohibitive cost which puts an end to it in my book. It turns out that the best case scenario for a test facility for us PSubbers is a guy in B.C., with a crane and a barge, (imagine that!:)! At 27k mentioned by Alec, It would be more cost effective comparatively with Calderock for a guy from Miami to drag his little PSUB on a trailer all the way to B.C., with his wife in tow for a little dip in a local lake and one heck of a sightseeing vacation!!,...Ha! Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 4:07:56 PM Joe, I just heard from WHOI, they tell me there is no chamber in the Pacific North West.?? They suggest talking with the University of Washington.? I am sure Dr Nuytten would have mentioned it if there were one down there.? Hank ? ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:33:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, ? There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. ? A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. Go to the WHOI website for info ? ? Joe ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test? my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West.? Hank ________________________________ From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hi, Hugh As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. Phil? From: vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. Vance -----Original Message-----From: Hugh Fulton To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pmSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance,? Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh ? ? ? From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. VanceSent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Vance,? I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on.? I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. >Hugh >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com >Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > >One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. >Vance >-----Original Message----- >From: JimToddPsub >To: personal_submersibles >Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: >? >A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. >? >Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516.? I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. >? >Jim >? >In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: >Jim, >>A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). >>Vance >>-----Original Message----- >>From: JimToddPsub >>To: personal_submersibles >>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>Greg, >>I should have clarified that.? It was a cut-and-paste from a web site.? I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises.? That was the case in this instance. >>Jim >>? >>In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: >>Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. >>>? >>>Greg >>>? >>>From:"JimToddPsub at aol.com" >>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>? >>>Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: >>>? >>>ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . >>> >>>It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. >>> >>>For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. >>> >>>For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): >>> >>>Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% >>>Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% >>>Phosphorous 0.035% max >>>Sulphur 0.035% max >>>Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% >>>? >>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: >>> >>>>Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. >>>> >>>>Jon >>>> >>>> >>>>On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: >>>>Hello, >>>>>? >>>>>What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. >>>>>? >>>>>Thanks, >>>>>Chris >>>>>? >>>>>Christopher Cave >>>>> >>>>>christophercave at yahoo.com >>>>>? >>>>>? >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 13:56:02 2013 From: jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com (greg cottrell) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 10:56:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: <1382636737.67139.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1382630876.40219.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382635089.32230.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382636737.67139.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382637362.9493.YahooMailNeo@web121905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hank, ? George used to use a heavy duty capstan instead of a winch. ? Greg ? ? ? ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Joe, I guess I could have squeezed my Gamma into the chamber at Nuytco before I welded the MBT's back on.? I am back to plan "A" I will remove the crane from my barge and haul it to Slocan Lake in the next month and leave it there until I need it.? With the crane off, I do not need the wing tanks and it is light enough to tow behind my PU.? I need to build a winch that holds 1,000 feet of cable now. Hank ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 11:18:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, I remember having researched this issue once upon a time, and I remember it giving me fits finding it. It's the same navy facility in Md mentioned by Alec , "Calderock," only he took it a step further having actually called them. It's very hard to find on the website, it's listed under laboratories and facilities as the "deep submergence test facility." http://www.navsea.navy.mil/nswc/carderock/pub/what/facilities/facilities_list.aspx Elsewhere on the site you can find the agreement and cost analysis forms to download. So Alec has discovered the prohibitive cost which puts an end to it in my book. It turns out that the best case scenario for a test facility for us PSubbers is a guy in B.C., with a crane and a barge, (imagine that!:)! At 27k mentioned by Alec, It would be more cost effective comparatively with Calderock for a guy from Miami to drag his little PSUB on a trailer all the way to B.C., with his wife in tow for a little dip in a local lake and one heck of a sightseeing vacation!!,...Ha! Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 4:07:56 PM Joe, I just heard from WHOI, they tell me there is no chamber in the Pacific North West.?? They suggest talking with the University of Washington.? I am sure Dr Nuytten would have mentioned it if there were one down there.? Hank ? ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:33:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, ? There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. ? A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. Go to the WHOI website for info ? ? Joe ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test? my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West.? Hank ________________________________ From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hi, Hugh As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. Phil? From: vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Fulton To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance,? Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh ? ? ? From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Vance,? I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on.? I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. >Hugh >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com >Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > >One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. >Vance >-----Original Message----- >From: JimToddPsub >To: personal_submersibles >Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: >? >A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. >? >Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516.? I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. >? >Jim >? >In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: >Jim, >>A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). >>Vance >>-----Original Message----- >>From: JimToddPsub >>To: personal_submersibles >>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>Greg, >>I should have clarified that.? It was a cut-and-paste from a web site.? I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises.? That was the case in this instance. >>Jim >>? >>In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: >>Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. >>>? >>>Greg >>>? >>>From:"JimToddPsub at aol.com" >>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>? >>>Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: >>>? >>>ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . >>> >>>It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. >>> >>>For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. >>> >>>For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): >>> >>>Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% >>>Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% >>>Phosphorous 0.035% max >>>Sulphur 0.035% max >>>Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% >>>? >>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: >>> >>>>Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. >>>> >>>>Jon >>>> >>>> >>>>On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: >>>>Hello, >>>>>? >>>>>What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. >>>>>? >>>>>Thanks, >>>>>Chris >>>>>? >>>>>Christopher Cave >>>>> >>>>>christophercave at yahoo.com >>>>>? >>>>>? >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 24 14:02:53 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 11:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: <1382636772.17107.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382635089.32230.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D09EF56720F660-600-DC51@webmail-vd013.sysops.aol.com> <1382636772.17107.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382637773.26793.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, From experience, I can say a DW style sub is very fast to build if you use pressed hemi's.? There is much less welding and fabricating than a k350.? Of coarse I am talking about a 300 foot rated sub.? The problem is when you get that small you need a barge, no way around it.? Also your life support system is on the minute you close the hatch.? Also the reaction time for O2 and CO2 levels to rise and fall is fast.? You would want a bellows add system for sure.?? Super small is nice but takes some big brain power to make it work right. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 11:46:12 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Funny you should mention that Vance! ? It did not go unnoticed how easily Alec skipped on down to the Florida Keys practically whipping Snoopy out of his back pocket in the process and flinging it around like an infants mobile on that davit! Much was demonstrated as to the benefits of keeping the?weight down! ? Not being a machinist, what issues present themselves fabrication wise, to cant a K-250 dome forward (ala Deepworker) a few degrees on a taller tower? ? Joe ? From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Joe, That will give you something new to ponder. Now you have to design a boat around the geometric constraints of the Vancouver test tank. 7' X 9'. Let's see what comes out of that. Deepworkers, anybody? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 1:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, I remember having researched this issue once upon a time, and I remember it giving me fits finding it. It's the same navy facility in Md mentioned by Alec , "Calderock," only he took it a step further having actually called them. It's very hard to find on the website, it's listed under laboratories and facilities as the "deep submergence test facility." http://www.navsea.navy.mil/nswc/carderock/pub/what/facilities/facilities_list.aspx Elsewhere on the site you can find the agreement and cost analysis forms to download. So Alec has discovered the prohibitive cost which puts an end to it in my book. It turns out that the best case scenario for a test facility for us PSubbers is a guy in B.C., with a crane and a barge, (imagine that!:)! At 27k mentioned by Alec, It would be more cost effective comparatively with Calderock for a guy from Miami to drag his little PSUB on a trailer all the way to B.C., with his wife in tow for a little dip in a local lake and one heck of a sightseeing vacation!!,...Ha! Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 4:07:56 PM Joe, I just heard from WHOI, they tell me there is no chamber in the Pacific North West.?? They suggest talking with the University of Washington.? I am sure Dr Nuytten would have mentioned it if there were one down there.? Hank ? From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:33:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, ? There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. ? A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. Go to the WHOI website for info ? ? Joe From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test? my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West.? Hank From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hi, Hugh As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. Phil? From: vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Fulton To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance,? Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh ? ? ? From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Vance,? I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on.? I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. >Hugh >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com >Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > >One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. >Vance >-----Original Message----- >From: JimToddPsub >To: personal_submersibles >Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: >? >A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. >? >Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516.? I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. >? >Jim >? >In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: >Jim, >>A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). >>Vance >>-----Original Message----- >>From: JimToddPsub >>To: personal_submersibles >>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>Greg, >>I should have clarified that.? It was a cut-and-paste from a web site.? I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises.? That was the case in this instance. >>Jim >>? >>In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: >>Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. >>>? >>>Greg >>>? >>>From:"JimToddPsub at aol.com" >>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>? >>>Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: >>>? >>>ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . >>> >>>It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. >>> >>>For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. >>> >>>For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): >>> >>>Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% >>>Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% >>>Phosphorous 0.035% max >>>Sulphur 0.035% max >>>Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% >>>? >>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: >>> >>>>Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. >>>> >>>>Jon >>>> >>>> >>>>On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: >>>>Hello, >>>>>? >>>>>What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. >>>>>? >>>>>Thanks, >>>>>Chris >>>>>? >>>>>Christopher Cave >>>>> >>>>>christophercave at yahoo.com >>>>>? >>>>>? >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 24 14:04:22 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 11:04:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: <1382637362.9493.YahooMailNeo@web121905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1382630876.40219.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382635089.32230.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382636737.67139.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382637362.9493.YahooMailNeo@web121905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382637862.96253.YahooMailNeo@web120704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Greg, I thought of that but, will the cable not slip on the drum.? They are made for rope aren't they.? Hank From: greg cottrell To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 11:56:02 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, ? George used to use a heavy duty capstan instead of a winch. ? Greg ? ? ? From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Joe, I guess I could have squeezed my Gamma into the chamber at Nuytco before I welded the MBT's back on.? I am back to plan "A" I will remove the crane from my barge and haul it to Slocan Lake in the next month and leave it there until I need it.? With the crane off, I do not need the wing tanks and it is light enough to tow behind my PU.? I need to build a winch that holds 1,000 feet of cable now. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 11:18:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, I remember having researched this issue once upon a time, and I remember it giving me fits finding it. It's the same navy facility in Md mentioned by Alec , "Calderock," only he took it a step further having actually called them. It's very hard to find on the website, it's listed under laboratories and facilities as the "deep submergence test facility." http://www.navsea.navy.mil/nswc/carderock/pub/what/facilities/facilities_list.aspx Elsewhere on the site you can find the agreement and cost analysis forms to download. So Alec has discovered the prohibitive cost which puts an end to it in my book. It turns out that the best case scenario for a test facility for us PSubbers is a guy in B.C., with a crane and a barge, (imagine that!:)! At 27k mentioned by Alec, It would be more cost effective comparatively with Calderock for a guy from Miami to drag his little PSUB on a trailer all the way to B.C., with his wife in tow for a little dip in a local lake and one heck of a sightseeing vacation!!,...Ha! Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 4:07:56 PM Joe, I just heard from WHOI, they tell me there is no chamber in the Pacific North West.?? They suggest talking with the University of Washington.? I am sure Dr Nuytten would have mentioned it if there were one down there.? Hank ? From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:33:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, ? There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. ? A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. Go to the WHOI website for info ? ? Joe From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test? my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West.? Hank From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hi, Hugh As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. Phil? From: vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Fulton To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance,? Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh ? ? ? From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Vance,? I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on.? I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. >Hugh >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com >Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > >One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. >Vance >-----Original Message----- >From: JimToddPsub >To: personal_submersibles >Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: >? >A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. >? >Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516.? I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. >? >Jim >? >In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: >Jim, >>A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). >>Vance >>-----Original Message----- >>From: JimToddPsub >>To: personal_submersibles >>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>Greg, >>I should have clarified that.? It was a cut-and-paste from a web site.? I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises.? That was the case in this instance. >>Jim >>? >>In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: >>Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. >>>? >>>Greg >>>? >>>From:"JimToddPsub at aol.com" >>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>? >>>Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: >>>? >>>ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . >>> >>>It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. >>> >>>For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. >>> >>>For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): >>> >>>Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% >>>Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% >>>Phosphorous 0.035% max >>>Sulphur 0.035% max >>>Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% >>>? >>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: >>> >>>>Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. >>>> >>>>Jon >>>> >>>> >>>>On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: >>>>Hello, >>>>>? >>>>>What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. >>>>>? >>>>>Thanks, >>>>>Chris >>>>>? >>>>>Christopher Cave >>>>> >>>>>christophercave at yahoo.com >>>>>? >>>>>? >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Oct 24 14:04:52 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 14:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: <1382636772.17107.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382635089.32230.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D09EF56720F660-600-DC51@webmail-vd013.sysops.aol.com> <1382636772.17107.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D09EFAAA97A340-FB0-E0CA@webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> Have a look at the massive changes to The Great White by the Scotts (Cassell and Reed). Big deck, good sized MBTs, etc, and still keeping the weight to about normal (1 1/2 tons according to the web site. Maybe the broad deck lets them scramble in and out--if not with impunity, then perhaps with care. As to canting the dome, I think you could heavy up the mating ring so that it was strong enough to weld elliptically to an angle cut conning tower cylinder and with a good dome, you could push on deeper, certainly to the K-350 and maybe to the K-500 ranges. Still have to fiddle up an internal/external closure for it, though. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 1:47 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Funny you should mention that Vance! It did not go unnoticed how easily Alec skipped on down to the Florida Keys practically whipping Snoopy out of his back pocket in the process and flinging it around like an infants mobile on that davit! Much was demonstrated as to the benefits of keeping the weight down! Not being a machinist, what issues present themselves fabrication wise, to cant a K-250 dome forward (ala Deepworker) a few degrees on a taller tower? Joe From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Joe, That will give you something new to ponder. Now you have to design a boat around the geometric constraints of the Vancouver test tank. 7' X 9'. Let's see what comes out of that. Deepworkers, anybody? Vance -----Original Message-----From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 1:18 pmSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, I remember having researched this issue once upon a time, and I remember it giving me fits finding it. It's the same navy facility in Md mentioned by Alec , "Calderock," only he took it a step further having actually called them. It's very hard to find on the website, it's listed under laboratories and facilities as the "deep submergence test facility." http://www.navsea.navy.mil/nswc/carderock/pub/what/facilities/facilities_list.aspx Elsewhere on the site you can find the agreement and cost analysis forms to download. So Alec has discovered the prohibitive cost which puts an end to it in my book. It turns out that the best case scenario for a test facility for us PSubbers is a guy in B.C., with a crane and a barge, (imagine that!:)! At 27k mentioned by Alec, It would be more cost effective comparatively with Calderock for a guy from Miami to drag his little PSUB on a trailer all the way to B.C., with his wife in tow for a little dip in a local lake and one heck of a sightseeing vacation!!,...Ha! Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 4:07:56 PM Joe, I just heard from WHOI, they tell me there is no chamber in the Pacific North West. They suggest talking with the University of Washington. I am sure Dr Nuytten would have mentioned it if there were one down there. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:33:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. Go to the WHOI website for info Joe From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West. Hank From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hi, Hugh As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. Phil From: vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. Vance -----Original Message-----From: Hugh Fulton To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pmSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance, Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. VanceSent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Vance, I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on. I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516. I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: Jim, A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Greg, I should have clarified that. It was a cut-and-paste from a web site. I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises. That was the case in this instance. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. Greg From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% Phosphorous 0.035% max Sulphur 0.035% max Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. Jon On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: Hello, What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. Thanks, Chris Christopher Cave christophercave at yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 14:20:01 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 11:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: <1382637773.26793.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1382635089.32230.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D09EF56720F660-600-DC51@webmail-vd013.sysops.aol.com> <1382636772.17107.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382637773.26793.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382638801.74027.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Nooo Hank, I'm just talking about the dome hatch on a K-350, not a Deepworker "Lite". ? Idea in mind,... replacing fore and aft MBTs on a?standard K-350 in favor of two relatively hefty?saddle tanks. This in effect removes a significant forward field of view obstruction. It occurs to me to mount a standard K-250 dome hatch on the taller tower. I was just wondering if its possible fabrication wise, to cant that dome forward a little? ? Joe ? ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 2:02 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Joe, >From experience, I can say a DW style sub is very fast to build if you use pressed hemi's.? There is much less welding and fabricating than a k350.? Of coarse I am talking about a 300 foot rated sub.? The problem is when you get that small you need a barge, no way around it.? Also your life support system is on the minute you close the hatch.? Also the reaction time for O2 and CO2 levels to rise and fall is fast.? You would want a bellows add system for sure.?? Super small is nice but takes some big brain power to make it work right. Hank ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 11:46:12 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Funny you should mention that Vance! ? It did not go unnoticed how easily Alec skipped on down to the Florida Keys practically whipping Snoopy out of his back pocket in the process and flinging it around like an infants mobile on that davit! Much was demonstrated as to the benefits of keeping the?weight down! ? Not being a machinist, what issues present themselves fabrication wise, to cant a K-250 dome forward (ala Deepworker) a few degrees on a taller tower? ? Joe ? ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Joe, That will give you something new to ponder. Now you have to design a boat around the geometric constraints of the Vancouver test tank. 7' X 9'. Let's see what comes out of that. Deepworkers, anybody? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 1:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, I remember having researched this issue once upon a time, and I remember it giving me fits finding it. It's the same navy facility in Md mentioned by Alec , "Calderock," only he took it a step further having actually called them. It's very hard to find on the website, it's listed under laboratories and facilities as the "deep submergence test facility." http://www.navsea.navy.mil/nswc/carderock/pub/what/facilities/facilities_list.aspx Elsewhere on the site you can find the agreement and cost analysis forms to download. So Alec has discovered the prohibitive cost which puts an end to it in my book. It turns out that the best case scenario for a test facility for us PSubbers is a guy in B.C., with a crane and a barge, (imagine that!:)! At 27k mentioned by Alec, It would be more cost effective comparatively with Calderock for a guy from Miami to drag his little PSUB on a trailer all the way to B.C., with his wife in tow for a little dip in a local lake and one heck of a sightseeing vacation!!,...Ha! Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 4:07:56 PM Joe, I just heard from WHOI, they tell me there is no chamber in the Pacific North West.?? They suggest talking with the University of Washington.? I am sure Dr Nuytten would have mentioned it if there were one down there.? Hank ? ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:33:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, ? There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. ? A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. Go to the WHOI website for info ? ? Joe ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test? my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West.? Hank ________________________________ From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hi, Hugh As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. Phil? From: vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Fulton To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance,? Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh ? ? ? From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Vance,? I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on.? I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. >Hugh >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com >Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > >One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. >Vance >-----Original Message----- >From: JimToddPsub >To: personal_submersibles >Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: >? >A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. >? >Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516.? I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. >? >Jim >? >In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: >Jim, >>A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). >>Vance >>-----Original Message----- >>From: JimToddPsub >>To: personal_submersibles >>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>Greg, >>I should have clarified that.? It was a cut-and-paste from a web site.? I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises.? That was the case in this instance. >>Jim >>? >>In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: >>Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. >>>? >>>Greg >>>? >>>From:"JimToddPsub at aol.com" >>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>? >>>Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: >>>? >>>ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . >>> >>>It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. >>> >>>For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. >>> >>>For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): >>> >>>Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% >>>Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% >>>Phosphorous 0.035% max >>>Sulphur 0.035% max >>>Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% >>>? >>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: >>> >>>>Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. >>>> >>>>Jon >>>> >>>> >>>>On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: >>>>Hello, >>>>>? >>>>>What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. >>>>>? >>>>>Thanks, >>>>>Chris >>>>>? >>>>>Christopher Cave >>>>> >>>>>christophercave at yahoo.com >>>>>? >>>>>? >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Thu Oct 24 14:32:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 24 Oct 2013 18:32 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: <1VZ18F-3YhfjE0@fwd22.t-online.de> References: <1VZ18F-3YhfjE0@fwd22.t-online.de> Message-ID: <1VZPjJ-1V8M0O0@fwd30.t-online.de> Building a own chamber is also a cheap way - use material from scrapp. Fill them complete with water and press her with a 1.5 saftey faktor before first sub use. Can be below 1000 USD for the material. Reinhard in Berlin did that way. Everthing made from second hand material. And many friends with Psubs comes over the years for a day or a weekend to make there test there. http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/old_projects/IMG_6099a.jpg http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/old_projects/IMG_6098a.jpg http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/old_projects/IMG_6100a.jpg The pressure will be done by a simple small highpressure water cleaner.. The only contra on a bolted hatch is that it takes hours to close and to open. A lake or pool with the water and a pump in helps a lot. vbr Carsten " " schrieb: Look for a company which impregnate wood under pressure. The pressure boiler have the right size and the pressure is good for around 300 feet. Normaly they are relative unexpensive - around 500 USD. Some of them are good for 500 feet. We did it here in the past and today - works. But all meassuring and sensors up to yourself. Nothing you can use official. http://www.petermueller.be/joinery-impregnation/impregnation/# http://cdn.agrarverlag.at/to/mmedia/image//2013.04.22/1366647313692_1.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Industrial_Autoclaves.jpg Or looking around for industrial autoclaves. Glas companies have them in that size to make saftey glases And Aircraft companies working with grp/crp technic. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Autoclave_Laminacion_de_Vidrio.jpg Or buy you own, make the test and sale it again with a big win.. ;-) http://www.thermalequipment.com/used-inv2.html A profesional chamber for dive equipment in Scotland ask f or a simple pressure test witth not so much sensors around 9 K USD. And there are 3000 feet are no problem. I ask our navy for there Submarine pressure dock some 20 years ago Answer was 70.000 USD for the test and additional the same amount for the dock insurance company.. http://file1.npage.de/006622/23/bilder/715_dockc_04.jpg http://file1.npage.de/006622/23/bilder/715_dockc_02.jpg http://file1.npage.de/006622/23/bilder/715_dockc_03.jpg http://file1.npage.de/006622/23/bilder/715_dockc_01.jpg vbr Carsten schrieb: Joe, The cost of pressure testing has as much to do with multi-point measuring and analysis of distortion as it does with just seeing if the vessel can survive a given depth intact. There is a depth [above crush depth] at which the vessel undergoes enough stress that one cycle or repeated cycles can compromise the vessel even though it might not appear to have suffered. Vance and others can speak a lot more to that than I can. Jim In a message dated 10/23/2013 8:46:44 A.M. Central Daylight Time, josephperkel at yahoo.com writes: Wow that's a bit rough for a working man! So much for that. I must say though, that I don't like much the lower the sub to the bottom and hope it comes back method of deep testing. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Alec Smyth ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Sent: Wed, Oct 23, 2013 12:52:33 PM Hi Hank, I asked at Carderock over a decade ago and was told the cost would depend on setup time, which varies depending on how much instrumentation you want during the test, but that a typical figure was around $27K. Waaaay beyond my budget. Dale Heinzing tested Snoopy somewhere on the West side of Canada at a lumber yard. Snoopy went in the tank alongside the lumber and must have been pretty well disinfected, but the scary bit was that they released the pressure almost instantaneously, with a bang. That test was to only 400' so not really sufficient for a Nekton, but it might still be of interest since I think it's relatively close to you and probably was inexpensive. Best, Alec On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Hank, There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. Go to the WHOI website for info Joe From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West. Hank From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hi, Hugh As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld  err, actually, thats an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. Phil From: vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Fulton To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance, Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Vance, I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I dont know what on. I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516. I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: Jim, A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Greg, I should have clarified that. It was a cut-and-paste from a web site. I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises. That was the case in this instance. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. Greg From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% Phosphorous 0.035% max Sulphur 0.035% max Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. Jon On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: Hello, What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. Thanks, Chris Christopher Cave christophercave at yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Thu Oct 24 16:48:52 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 13:48:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: <1382638801.74027.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382635089.32230.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D09EF56720F660-600-DC51@webmail-vd013.sysops.aol.com> <1382636772.17107.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382637773.26793.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382638801.74027.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382647732.51820.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Sorry Joe, I misunderstood, :-)? Yes you could tilt the land, you just need to make it bigger to compensate for the tilt.? You can cut it to the oval shape or leave some overhanging the CT. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:20:01 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Nooo Hank, I'm just talking about the dome hatch on a K-350, not a Deepworker "Lite". ? Idea in mind,... replacing fore and aft MBTs on a?standard K-350 in favor of two relatively hefty?saddle tanks. This in effect removes a significant forward field of view obstruction. It occurs to me to mount a standard K-250 dome hatch on the taller tower. I was just wondering if its possible fabrication wise, to cant that dome forward a little? ? Joe ? From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 2:02 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Joe, From experience, I can say a DW style sub is very fast to build if you use pressed hemi's.? There is much less welding and fabricating than a k350.? Of coarse I am talking about a 300 foot rated sub.? The problem is when you get that small you need a barge, no way around it.? Also your life support system is on the minute you close the hatch.? Also the reaction time for O2 and CO2 levels to rise and fall is fast.? You would want a bellows add system for sure.?? Super small is nice but takes some big brain power to make it work right. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 11:46:12 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Funny you should mention that Vance! ? It did not go unnoticed how easily Alec skipped on down to the Florida Keys practically whipping Snoopy out of his back pocket in the process and flinging it around like an infants mobile on that davit! Much was demonstrated as to the benefits of keeping the?weight down! ? Not being a machinist, what issues present themselves fabrication wise, to cant a K-250 dome forward (ala Deepworker) a few degrees on a taller tower? ? Joe ? From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Joe, That will give you something new to ponder. Now you have to design a boat around the geometric constraints of the Vancouver test tank. 7' X 9'. Let's see what comes out of that. Deepworkers, anybody? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 1:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, I remember having researched this issue once upon a time, and I remember it giving me fits finding it. It's the same navy facility in Md mentioned by Alec , "Calderock," only he took it a step further having actually called them. It's very hard to find on the website, it's listed under laboratories and facilities as the "deep submergence test facility." http://www.navsea.navy.mil/nswc/carderock/pub/what/facilities/facilities_list.aspx Elsewhere on the site you can find the agreement and cost analysis forms to download. So Alec has discovered the prohibitive cost which puts an end to it in my book. It turns out that the best case scenario for a test facility for us PSubbers is a guy in B.C., with a crane and a barge, (imagine that!:)! At 27k mentioned by Alec, It would be more cost effective comparatively with Calderock for a guy from Miami to drag his little PSUB on a trailer all the way to B.C., with his wife in tow for a little dip in a local lake and one heck of a sightseeing vacation!!,...Ha! Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 4:07:56 PM Joe, I just heard from WHOI, they tell me there is no chamber in the Pacific North West.?? They suggest talking with the University of Washington.? I am sure Dr Nuytten would have mentioned it if there were one down there.? Hank ? From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:33:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, ? There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. ? A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. Go to the WHOI website for info ? ? Joe From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test? my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West.? Hank From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hi, Hugh As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. Phil? From: vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Fulton To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance,? Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh ? ? ? From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Vance,? I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on.? I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. >Hugh >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com >Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > >One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. >Vance >-----Original Message----- >From: JimToddPsub >To: personal_submersibles >Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: >? >A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. >? >Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516.? I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. >? >Jim >? >In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: >Jim, >>A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). >>Vance >>-----Original Message----- >>From: JimToddPsub >>To: personal_submersibles >>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>Greg, >>I should have clarified that.? It was a cut-and-paste from a web site.? I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises.? That was the case in this instance. >>Jim >>? >>In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: >>Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. >>>? >>>Greg >>>? >>>From:"JimToddPsub at aol.com" >>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>? >>>Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: >>>? >>>ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . >>> >>>It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. >>> >>>For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. >>> >>>For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): >>> >>>Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% >>>Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% >>>Phosphorous 0.035% max >>>Sulphur 0.035% max >>>Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% >>>? >>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: >>> >>>>Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. >>>> >>>>Jon >>>> >>>> >>>>On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: >>>>Hello, >>>>>? >>>>>What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. >>>>>? >>>>>Thanks, >>>>>Chris >>>>>? >>>>>Christopher Cave >>>>> >>>>>christophercave at yahoo.com >>>>>? >>>>>? >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 21:14:26 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 18:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: <8D09EFAAA97A340-FB0-E0CA@webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> References: <1382635089.32230.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D09EF56720F660-600-DC51@webmail-vd013.sysops.aol.com> <1382636772.17107.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D09EFAAA97A340-FB0-E0CA@webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1382663666.40390.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Vance, ? I did notice those changes, in fact there have been massive changes since test day one in Lake Tahoe. I really cant tell whats what on it now, it looks like a lifeboatfor the spaceship 'Prometheus'. ? On the thrusters,... ? I'm finding lot's of various motor / gear reduction options out there, some off the shelf, plenty custom. Its the custom jobs that make it into those commercial offerings out there, hence the price points. Also found Alvins thruster manufacturer, thats a venturi housing on those, proprietary property to a company in Ca. Spotted one of the Pisces boats wearing these. ? I'm confident I can downsize the motor to the Sch 4 pipe with off the shelf hardware,?but I cant get enough out of one @ 48v to get more than 3/4 HP. All commercial heavy hitters run = > 150vdc ? Marin 37 Kort, is best bi-directional duct. ? Joe On Thursday, October 24, 2013 2:14 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Have a look at the massive changes to The Great White by the Scotts (Cassell and Reed). Big deck, good sized MBTs, etc, and still keeping the weight to about normal (1 1/2 tons according to the web site. Maybe the broad deck lets them scramble in and out--if not with impunity, then perhaps with care. As to canting the dome, I think you could heavy up the mating ring so that it was strong enough to weld elliptically to an angle cut conning tower cylinder and with a good dome, you could push on deeper, certainly to the K-350 and maybe to the K-500 ranges. Still have to fiddle up an internal/external closure for it, though. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 1:47 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Funny you should mention that Vance! ? It did not go unnoticed how easily Alec skipped on down to the Florida Keys practically whipping Snoopy out of his back pocket in the process and flinging it around like an infants mobile on that davit! Much was demonstrated as to the benefits of keeping the?weight down! ? Not being a machinist, what issues present themselves fabrication wise, to cant a K-250 dome forward (ala Deepworker) a few degrees on a taller tower? ? Joe ? ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Joe, That will give you something new to ponder. Now you have to design a boat around the geometric constraints of the Vancouver test tank. 7' X 9'. Let's see what comes out of that. Deepworkers, anybody? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 1:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, I remember having researched this issue once upon a time, and I remember it giving me fits finding it. It's the same navy facility in Md mentioned by Alec , "Calderock," only he took it a step further having actually called them. It's very hard to find on the website, it's listed under laboratories and facilities as the "deep submergence test facility." http://www.navsea.navy.mil/nswc/carderock/pub/what/facilities/facilities_list.aspx Elsewhere on the site you can find the agreement and cost analysis forms to download. So Alec has discovered the prohibitive cost which puts an end to it in my book. It turns out that the best case scenario for a test facility for us PSubbers is a guy in B.C., with a crane and a barge, (imagine that!:)! At 27k mentioned by Alec, It would be more cost effective comparatively with Calderock for a guy from Miami to drag his little PSUB on a trailer all the way to B.C., with his wife in tow for a little dip in a local lake and one heck of a sightseeing vacation!!,...Ha! Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 4:07:56 PM Joe, I just heard from WHOI, they tell me there is no chamber in the Pacific North West.?? They suggest talking with the University of Washington.? I am sure Dr Nuytten would have mentioned it if there were one down there.? Hank ? ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:33:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, ? There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. ? A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. Go to the WHOI website for info ? ? Joe ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test? my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West.? Hank ________________________________ From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hi, Hugh As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. Phil ? From: vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Fulton To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance,? Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh ? ? ? From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Vance,? I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on.? I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. >Hugh >? >From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com >Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull > >One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. >Vance >-----Original Message----- >From: JimToddPsub >To: personal_submersibles >Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: >? >A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. >? >Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516.? I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. >? >Jim >? >In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: >Jim, >>A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). >>Vance >>-----Original Message----- >>From: JimToddPsub >>To: personal_submersibles >>Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>Greg, >>I should have clarified that.? It was a cut-and-paste from a web site.? I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises.? That was the case in this instance. >>Jim >>? >>In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: >>Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. >>>? >>>Greg >>>? >>>From:"JimToddPsub at aol.com" >>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull >>>? >>>Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: >>>? >>>ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . >>> >>>It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. >>> >>>For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. >>> >>>For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): >>> >>>Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% >>>Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% >>>Phosphorous 0.035% max >>>Sulphur 0.035% max >>>Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% >>>? >>>In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: >>> >>>>Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. >>>> >>>>Jon >>>> >>>> >>>>On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: >>>>Hello, >>>>>? >>>>>What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. >>>>>? >>>>>Thanks, >>>>>Chris >>>>>? >>>>>Christopher Cave >>>>> >>>>>christophercave at yahoo.com >>>>>? >>>>>? >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>? >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >http://www.eset.com/ >__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Thu Oct 24 22:21:45 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 22:21:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test In-Reply-To: <1382663666.40390.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382635089.32230.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D09EF56720F660-600-DC51@webmail-vd013.sysops.aol.com> <1382636772.17107.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D09EFAAA97A340-FB0-E0CA@webmail-d281.sysops.aol.com> <1382663666.40390.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D09F4015B1880E-27D4-1192E@webmail-d207.sysops.aol.com> The Marin 37 looks about like I remember most of them looking. Perry built a male plug for the prop side and made nice little fiberglass ones off the form. Once the shape was down, they were easy to replicate, rigid in operation, and easy to mount. Just need to find a motor prop combination. Direct drive is simpler and lighter, but gives you less as a result. The 120 volt motors we used make for a smaller package. About 70# thrust as I recall from a 3/4 hp Perry. It was a good kick-ass motor, but leaked a bit from time to time, and we spent more hours than we wanted to sorting them out. They solved most of the problems with better shaft bearings and a double shaft seal arrangement. A decent magnetic coupling would solve most of those problems. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 9:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Vance, I did notice those changes, in fact there have been massive changes since test day one in Lake Tahoe. I really cant tell whats what on it now, it looks like a lifeboatfor the spaceship 'Prometheus'. On the thrusters,... I'm finding lot's of various motor / gear reduction options out there, some off the shelf, plenty custom. Its the custom jobs that make it into those commercial offerings out there, hence the price points. Also found Alvins thruster manufacturer, thats a venturi housing on those, proprietary property to a company in Ca. Spotted one of the Pisces boats wearing these. I'm confident I can downsize the motor to the Sch 4 pipe with off the shelf hardware, but I cant get enough out of one @ 48v to get more than 3/4 HP. All commercial heavy hitters run = > 150vdc Marin 37 Kort, is best bi-directional duct. Joe On Thursday, October 24, 2013 2:14 PM, "vbra676539 at aol.com" wrote: Have a look at the massive changes to The Great White by the Scotts (Cassell and Reed). Big deck, good sized MBTs, etc, and still keeping the weight to about normal (1 1/2 tons according to the web site. Maybe the broad deck lets them scramble in and out--if not with impunity, then perhaps with care. As to canting the dome, I think you could heavy up the mating ring so that it was strong enough to weld elliptically to an angle cut conning tower cylinder and with a good dome, you could push on deeper, certainly to the K-350 and maybe to the K-500 ranges. Still have to fiddle up an internal/external closure for it, though. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 1:47 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Funny you should mention that Vance! It did not go unnoticed how easily Alec skipped on down to the Florida Keys practically whipping Snoopy out of his back pocket in the process and flinging it around like an infants mobile on that davit! Much was demonstrated as to the benefits of keeping the weight down! Not being a machinist, what issues present themselves fabrication wise, to cant a K-250 dome forward (ala Deepworker) a few degrees on a taller tower? Joe From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Joe, That will give you something new to ponder. Now you have to design a boat around the geometric constraints of the Vancouver test tank. 7' X 9'. Let's see what comes out of that. Deepworkers, anybody? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 1:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, I remember having researched this issue once upon a time, and I remember it giving me fits finding it. It's the same navy facility in Md mentioned by Alec , "Calderock," only he took it a step further having actually called them. It's very hard to find on the website, it's listed under laboratories and facilities as the "deep submergence test facility." http://www.navsea.navy.mil/nswc/carderock/pub/what/facilities/facilities_list.aspx Elsewhere on the site you can find the agreement and cost analysis forms to download. So Alec has discovered the prohibitive cost which puts an end to it in my book. It turns out that the best case scenario for a test facility for us PSubbers is a guy in B.C., with a crane and a barge, (imagine that!:)! At 27k mentioned by Alec, It would be more cost effective comparatively with Calderock for a guy from Miami to drag his little PSUB on a trailer all the way to B.C., with his wife in tow for a little dip in a local lake and one heck of a sightseeing vacation!!,...Ha! Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: hank pronk ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Sent: Thu, Oct 24, 2013 4:07:56 PM Joe, I just heard from WHOI, they tell me there is no chamber in the Pacific North West. They suggest talking with the University of Washington. I am sure Dr Nuytten would have mentioned it if there were one down there. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:33:09 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Hank, There are two in the states however, the one on the west coast has a 72" limit if I recall correctly. The other on the east coast, is the same one used for the k-600 and Alvin. A contract and waiver are required, let us know the cost if you do it. Go to the WHOI website for info Joe From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] pressure test Does anyone know if the is a pressure chamber large enough to test my Nekton submarine in the Pacific North West. Hank From: Phil Nuytten To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:19:38 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hi, Hugh As Vance says, HY80 is somewhat challenging to weld ? err, actually, that?s an understatement. We had to work with our fabricators to come up with a whole weld procedure to satisfy our classing agency. If you decide to go this route, let me know and we will share that procedure. Phil From: vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 7:18 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull I think it is somewhat demanding to weld, and expensive by comparison, of course. That said, there is a mountain of data available, as the pressure hulls of most modern US Navy submarines are built out of it. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Hugh Fulton To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 10:15 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance, Yep that sounds about right. Are there any nasties to using it? Chs Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org?] On Behalf Of Vance Bradley Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 1:37 p.m. To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Hugh, HY-80 used to maintain the standard dimensions of a DW2000 with 50% depth increase. Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 22, 2013, at 8:13 PM, "Hugh Fulton" wrote: Vance, I am sure I saw recently from Phil that he was using HY 80 but I don?t know what on. I did a calc on mine and I got a lot deeper using the HY 80 specs over the Grade 70. Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2013 11:55 a.m. To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull One other thing comes to mind on this. Phil uses A516Gr70 in the DW2000s. It occurs to me that if there was a demonstrable benefit to A537, he would have used taken advantage of it. And he didn't, apparently. Interesting. Don't know why, though. Maybe it has something to do with welding stainless inserts in and the heat treatment thereof. Just a guess. Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Vance, >From Leeco Steel's website: A537 plate steel is heat-treated. As a result, it displays greater yield and tensile strength than the more standard A516 grades. A537 steel plate is ideal for both in boilers and pressure vessels, and is used in the oil, gas and petrochemical industry. Nice to see it provides at least a brief comparison to A516. I'm sure there are more variables to consider including cost. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 5:23:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vbra676539 at aol.com writes: Jim, A537 was used extensively, as well, especially in the early boats that Perry built. Maybe you can figure it out. It seems that I recall being told that it was somewhat harder to weld but had better cold-water-under-pressure properties. Maybe Dr. Nuytten would weigh in on this, assuming he isn't up to his ass in DW3000 alligators this week (which I suspect he is). Vance -----Original Message----- From: JimToddPsub To: personal_submersibles Sent: Tue, Oct 22, 2013 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Greg, I should have clarified that. It was a cut-and-paste from a web site. I'm more of a librarian in that I save info in an organized fashion when I come across it so I'll have it available later when the need arises. That was the case in this instance. Jim In a message dated 10/22/2013 1:25:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jgcottrell2002 at yahoo.com writes: Thanks for the info, Jim. It's good to know there is some one in the group that is also in the steel industry. Greg From: "JimToddPsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Best Steel to use for Sub Hull Maybe more detail than you really want to know, but here goes: ASTM A 516 or ASME SA 516 grade is one of the most popular steel grades in market . It is primarily intended for use in welded pressure vessels where notch toughness is important. It comes in four grades 55, 60, 65 & 70. At Oakley Steel we mainly sell 516 gr 60 and 516 gr 70. These grades cover a range of tensile strengths from 55 - 90 MPa and this versatility explains much of the specifications popularity. For plates thinner than 40mm we normally supply them as rolled. Plates supplied above 40mm thick are normalised. For A 516 grade 70, which is one of our most popular steels, the ASME standard composition is as follows (dependent on grade): Carbon 0.27 - 0.31% Manganese 0.79 - 1.3% Phosphorous 0.035% max Sulphur 0.035% max Silicon 0.13 - 0.45% In a message dated 10/22/2013 11:53:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, jonw at psubs.org writes: Generally, A516gr70 suffices for personal or recreational submarines. Jon On 10/22/2013 12:45 PM, Christopher Cave wrote: Hello, What is the best steel to use for a submarine hull. Someone mentioned marine steel such as 316,316L or 317. Any suggestions or a website I can review. Thanks, Chris Christopher Cave christophercave at yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8951 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8952 (20131022) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.http://www.eset.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Fri Oct 25 05:57:17 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 02:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive Message-ID: <1382695037.45489.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Psubbers I've been thinking about motor compensation options. Any thoughts about whether this idea may have any merits?..... Mount a brushless motor vertically on an outboard motor lower unit gear case & air compensate it. The length of the vertical drive shaft from the motor to the gear case gives plenty of margin of error for the air compensation system before any water could make its way to the motor. The gearing already exists for the higher speed of the brushless motor, & although there is an energy loss through the gearing there would be some savings in? that the motor is not directly in the path of the propellor thrust. A can would need to be made around the motor & sealed on to the lower unit. Regards Alan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Fri Oct 25 06:52:58 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 11:52:58 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue In-Reply-To: References: <611fbeb98f2c4a42932080f74c0db4db@DM2PR05MB494.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hi Alec, Before i report my finding of last night, i think i might be being a complete numpty. I am assuming that the radio will come on even though the transducer is not in the water? Obviously no signal but i was assuming the radio would at least crackle to life. Does the transducer need to be underwater before the radio will switch on?? Thanks James On 24 October 2013 13:09, James Frankland wrote: > Hi Alec, > > Ok, i think i get it. I will investigate later and report back...! Many > thanks. > James > > On 24 October 2013 12:56, Alec Smyth wrote: > >> Let me try and re-word this... You will find the cable has two >> conductors, but the connector has three contacts. Two of the contacts are >> connected to the same cable. Thus when you screw the connector onto the OTS >> unit, it closes a circuit between the two contacts. Don't cut open the >> connector, you can explore this just by checking continuity between the >> contacts. >> >> Sorry, I hope I'm not repeating myself! >> >> >> Alec >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 6:42 AM, James Frankland < >> jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: >> >>> Im a bit confused as when i cut the cable (some distance from the >>> connector), there are only 2 cables. The inner cable and the shield. So >>> not sure where this 3rd cable is. I will take the connector appart and >>> investigate.... >>> >>> Thanks >>> james >>> >>> On 24 October 2013 11:20, Alec Smyth wrote: >>> >>>> In the connector you screw onto the OTS box, just connect both 1 and 3 >>>> to the same cable. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 5:02 AM, James Frankland < >>>> jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Emile\Alec, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for that info. Not quite sure how i can connect pins 1 and 3, >>>>> but i will have another look at it later on after work and see how it looks. >>>>> Many thanks >>>>> James >>>>> >>>>> On 23 October 2013 18:14, Smyth, Alec wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi James,**** >>>>>> >>>>>> ** ** >>>>>> >>>>>> OTS have done something clever. The OTS transducer has only two >>>>>> contacts, but the when you use the factory cable for mounting the >>>>>> transducer remotely you will notice the cable connector has three contacts. >>>>>> What they are doing is using two of them (#1 and #3) connected together to >>>>>> act as a switch, so that when you plug in the cable the OTS box turns on. I >>>>>> think if you keep your current arrangement, but also connect contacts 1 and >>>>>> 3, you might find it works.**** >>>>>> >>>>>> ** ** >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec**** >>>>>> >>>>>> ** ** >>>>>> >>>>>> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >>>>>> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Emile van >>>>>> Essen >>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2013 12:34 PM >>>>>> *To:* 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue**** >>>>>> >>>>>> ** ** >>>>>> >>>>>> James,**** >>>>>> >>>>>> ** ** >>>>>> >>>>>> It usually gives no problem to cut a transducer cable and solder it >>>>>> again. Don?t forget the shield.**** >>>>>> >>>>>> Obvious, the transducer must be in water and may not be in the shade >>>>>> of the sub.**** >>>>>> >>>>>> ** ** >>>>>> >>>>>> Got mine on top of the sail. Best place but works not on surface..*** >>>>>> * >>>>>> >>>>>> ** ** >>>>>> >>>>>> BTW; I am dealer of Ocean Reef UW Communication ; This brand share >>>>>> the same technology as OTS so you can talk between the 2 brands..)*** >>>>>> * >>>>>> >>>>>> ** ** >>>>>> >>>>>> ** ** >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards, Emile**** >>>>>> >>>>>> .**** >>>>>> >>>>>> ** ** >>>>>> >>>>>> ** ** >>>>>> >>>>>> ** ** >>>>>> >>>>>> ** ** >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [ >>>>>> mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >>>>>> *Namens *James Frankland >>>>>> *Verzonden:* woensdag 23 oktober 2013 18:05 >>>>>> *Aan:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue**** >>>>>> >>>>>> ** ** >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi All,**** >>>>>> >>>>>> **** >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyone got any thoughts on this.**** >>>>>> >>>>>> **** >>>>>> >>>>>> My OTS surface station mounted inside the sub didnt work. It didnt >>>>>> even switch on. I checked the Vout at the batteries (16x AAA inside the >>>>>> unit) and it was good at 12V.**** >>>>>> >>>>>> **** >>>>>> >>>>>> I suspect the problem is that i cut the transducer cable to pass it >>>>>> through a sub conn bulkhead connector. When you plus the transducer into >>>>>> the unit, that is supposed to turn it on at the same time, but nothing. >>>>>> Suspect no signal from the transducer so unit not switching on.**** >>>>>> >>>>>> **** >>>>>> >>>>>> You can see the rubbish effort i made of it here. Im almost sure >>>>>> this is the fault.**** >>>>>> >>>>>> **** >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page22133.htm**** >>>>>> >>>>>> **** >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyone got any ideas? I need to get this fixed before the nest dive. >>>>>> **** >>>>>> >>>>>> **** >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks**** >>>>>> >>>>>> James**** >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Fri Oct 25 08:09:31 2013 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 08:09:31 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue In-Reply-To: References: <611fbeb98f2c4a42932080f74c0db4db@DM2PR05MB494.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: The OTS box does not know whether the transducer is in the water or not. What will turn it on is connecting the transducer cable. When you do so, you are closing the connection between contacts 1 and 3, and closing that circuit is the equivalent of clicking an "on" switch. Best, Alec On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 6:52 AM, James Frankland < jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > Hi Alec, > > Before i report my finding of last night, i think i might be being a > complete numpty. I am assuming that the radio will come on even though the > transducer is not in the water? Obviously no signal but i was assuming the > radio would at least crackle to life. Does the transducer need to be > underwater before the radio will switch on?? > > Thanks > James > > On 24 October 2013 13:09, James Frankland wrote: > >> Hi Alec, >> >> Ok, i think i get it. I will investigate later and report back...! Many >> thanks. >> James >> >> On 24 October 2013 12:56, Alec Smyth wrote: >> >>> Let me try and re-word this... You will find the cable has two >>> conductors, but the connector has three contacts. Two of the contacts are >>> connected to the same cable. Thus when you screw the connector onto the OTS >>> unit, it closes a circuit between the two contacts. Don't cut open the >>> connector, you can explore this just by checking continuity between the >>> contacts. >>> >>> Sorry, I hope I'm not repeating myself! >>> >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 6:42 AM, James Frankland < >>> jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Im a bit confused as when i cut the cable (some distance from the >>>> connector), there are only 2 cables. The inner cable and the shield. So >>>> not sure where this 3rd cable is. I will take the connector appart and >>>> investigate.... >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> james >>>> >>>> On 24 October 2013 11:20, Alec Smyth wrote: >>>> >>>>> In the connector you screw onto the OTS box, just connect both 1 and 3 >>>>> to the same cable. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 5:02 AM, James Frankland < >>>>> jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Emile\Alec, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for that info. Not quite sure how i can connect pins 1 and 3, >>>>>> but i will have another look at it later on after work and see how it looks. >>>>>> Many thanks >>>>>> James >>>>>> >>>>>> On 23 October 2013 18:14, Smyth, Alec wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi James,**** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OTS have done something clever. The OTS transducer has only two >>>>>>> contacts, but the when you use the factory cable for mounting the >>>>>>> transducer remotely you will notice the cable connector has three contacts. >>>>>>> What they are doing is using two of them (#1 and #3) connected together to >>>>>>> act as a switch, so that when you plug in the cable the OTS box turns on. I >>>>>>> think if you keep your current arrangement, but also connect contacts 1 and >>>>>>> 3, you might find it works.**** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alec**** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >>>>>>> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Emile van >>>>>>> Essen >>>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2013 12:34 PM >>>>>>> *To:* 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue**** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> James,**** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It usually gives no problem to cut a transducer cable and solder it >>>>>>> again. Don?t forget the shield.**** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Obvious, the transducer must be in water and may not be in the shade >>>>>>> of the sub.**** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Got mine on top of the sail. Best place but works not on surface..** >>>>>>> ** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> BTW; I am dealer of Ocean Reef UW Communication ; This brand >>>>>>> share the same technology as OTS so you can talk between the 2 brands..) >>>>>>> **** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best regards, Emile**** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> .**** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [ >>>>>>> mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >>>>>>> *Namens *James Frankland >>>>>>> *Verzonden:* woensdag 23 oktober 2013 18:05 >>>>>>> *Aan:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue**** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi All,**** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> **** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyone got any thoughts on this.**** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> **** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My OTS surface station mounted inside the sub didnt work. It didnt >>>>>>> even switch on. I checked the Vout at the batteries (16x AAA inside the >>>>>>> unit) and it was good at 12V.**** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> **** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I suspect the problem is that i cut the transducer cable to pass it >>>>>>> through a sub conn bulkhead connector. When you plus the transducer into >>>>>>> the unit, that is supposed to turn it on at the same time, but nothing. >>>>>>> Suspect no signal from the transducer so unit not switching on.**** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> **** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can see the rubbish effort i made of it here. Im almost sure >>>>>>> this is the fault.**** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> **** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page22133.htm**** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> **** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyone got any ideas? I need to get this fixed before the nest dive. >>>>>>> **** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> **** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks**** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> James**** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Fri Oct 25 08:20:26 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 13:20:26 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue In-Reply-To: References: <611fbeb98f2c4a42932080f74c0db4db@DM2PR05MB494.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hi Alec, Ok, at least i wasnt being a noddy. So, this is what i did. Plugged the batteries in and checked 12V at the output. All ok. At the back of the transducer socket, there are 3 wires coming out. 2 go into 1 plug on the pcb and 1 goes into a seperate plug. Lets call them A\B for the pair and C for the single. I could just get my meter on the exposed wires to check voltage. WITHOUT the transducer plugged in, I was getting 12v accross A\B to C and also continuity the same. WITH the transducer plugged in i got nothing. No voltage at all and no continuity between A\B and C. Next I manually connected pins 1 to 3 together in all configurations. Nothing came on. I have a horrible feeling its broken. Next I am going to take the whole unit to my local tech dive shop. The guy has lots of OTS kit and will have a transducer thats not been hacked for me top try. regards James On 25 October 2013 13:09, Alec Smyth wrote: > The OTS box does not know whether the transducer is in the water or not. > What will turn it on is connecting the transducer cable. When you do so, > you are closing the connection between contacts 1 and 3, and closing that > circuit is the equivalent of clicking an "on" switch. > > Best, > > Alec > > > On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 6:52 AM, James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: > >> Hi Alec, >> >> Before i report my finding of last night, i think i might be being a >> complete numpty. I am assuming that the radio will come on even though the >> transducer is not in the water? Obviously no signal but i was assuming the >> radio would at least crackle to life. Does the transducer need to be >> underwater before the radio will switch on?? >> >> Thanks >> James >> >> On 24 October 2013 13:09, James Frankland wrote: >> >>> Hi Alec, >>> >>> Ok, i think i get it. I will investigate later and report back...! >>> Many thanks. >>> James >>> >>> On 24 October 2013 12:56, Alec Smyth wrote: >>> >>>> Let me try and re-word this... You will find the cable has two >>>> conductors, but the connector has three contacts. Two of the contacts are >>>> connected to the same cable. Thus when you screw the connector onto the OTS >>>> unit, it closes a circuit between the two contacts. Don't cut open the >>>> connector, you can explore this just by checking continuity between the >>>> contacts. >>>> >>>> Sorry, I hope I'm not repeating myself! >>>> >>>> >>>> Alec >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 6:42 AM, James Frankland < >>>> jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Im a bit confused as when i cut the cable (some distance from the >>>>> connector), there are only 2 cables. The inner cable and the shield. So >>>>> not sure where this 3rd cable is. I will take the connector appart and >>>>> investigate.... >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> james >>>>> >>>>> On 24 October 2013 11:20, Alec Smyth wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> In the connector you screw onto the OTS box, just connect both 1 and >>>>>> 3 to the same cable. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Alec >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 5:02 AM, James Frankland < >>>>>> jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Emile\Alec, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for that info. Not quite sure how i can connect pins 1 and >>>>>>> 3, but i will have another look at it later on after work and see how it >>>>>>> looks. >>>>>>> Many thanks >>>>>>> James >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 23 October 2013 18:14, Smyth, Alec wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi James,**** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OTS have done something clever. The OTS transducer has only two >>>>>>>> contacts, but the when you use the factory cable for mounting the >>>>>>>> transducer remotely you will notice the cable connector has three contacts. >>>>>>>> What they are doing is using two of them (#1 and #3) connected together to >>>>>>>> act as a switch, so that when you plug in the cable the OTS box turns on. I >>>>>>>> think if you keep your current arrangement, but also connect contacts 1 and >>>>>>>> 3, you might find it works.**** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Alec**** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: >>>>>>>> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Emile van >>>>>>>> Essen >>>>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2013 12:34 PM >>>>>>>> *To:* 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' >>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue**** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James,**** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It usually gives no problem to cut a transducer cable and solder it >>>>>>>> again. Don?t forget the shield.**** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Obvious, the transducer must be in water and may not be in the >>>>>>>> shade of the sub.**** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Got mine on top of the sail. Best place but works not on surface..* >>>>>>>> *** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> BTW; I am dealer of Ocean Reef UW Communication ; This brand >>>>>>>> share the same technology as OTS so you can talk between the 2 brands..) >>>>>>>> **** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best regards, Emile**** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> .**** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [ >>>>>>>> mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] >>>>>>>> *Namens *James Frankland >>>>>>>> *Verzonden:* woensdag 23 oktober 2013 18:05 >>>>>>>> *Aan:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue**** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ** ** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi All,**** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> **** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anyone got any thoughts on this.**** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> **** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My OTS surface station mounted inside the sub didnt work. It didnt >>>>>>>> even switch on. I checked the Vout at the batteries (16x AAA inside the >>>>>>>> unit) and it was good at 12V.**** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> **** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I suspect the problem is that i cut the transducer cable to pass it >>>>>>>> through a sub conn bulkhead connector. When you plus the transducer into >>>>>>>> the unit, that is supposed to turn it on at the same time, but nothing. >>>>>>>> Suspect no signal from the transducer so unit not switching on.**** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> **** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You can see the rubbish effort i made of it here. Im almost sure >>>>>>>> this is the fault.**** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> **** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page22133.htm**** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> **** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anyone got any ideas? I need to get this fixed before the nest >>>>>>>> dive.**** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> **** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks**** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> James**** >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Alec.Smyth at covisint.com Fri Oct 25 08:30:26 2013 From: Alec.Smyth at covisint.com (Smyth, Alec) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 12:30:26 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue In-Reply-To: References: <611fbeb98f2c4a42932080f74c0db4db@DM2PR05MB494.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Sounds like our transducer connectors are a little different, which could be explained by the fact you have a surface unit whereas I use a diver unit on the surface. I know Dan Lance, Cliff, and Scott all have surface units like yours, so maybe they can weigh in. But to me it does sound like it might be broken, and your plan to plug in an un-hacked transducer the way to find out for sure. From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of James Frankland Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 8:20 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue Hi Alec, Ok, at least i wasnt being a noddy. So, this is what i did. Plugged the batteries in and checked 12V at the output. All ok. At the back of the transducer socket, there are 3 wires coming out. 2 go into 1 plug on the pcb and 1 goes into a seperate plug. Lets call them A\B for the pair and C for the single. I could just get my meter on the exposed wires to check voltage. WITHOUT the transducer plugged in, I was getting 12v accross A\B to C and also continuity the same. WITH the transducer plugged in i got nothing. No voltage at all and no continuity between A\B and C. Next I manually connected pins 1 to 3 together in all configurations. Nothing came on. I have a horrible feeling its broken. Next I am going to take the whole unit to my local tech dive shop. The guy has lots of OTS kit and will have a transducer thats not been hacked for me top try. regards James On 25 October 2013 13:09, Alec Smyth > wrote: The OTS box does not know whether the transducer is in the water or not. What will turn it on is connecting the transducer cable. When you do so, you are closing the connection between contacts 1 and 3, and closing that circuit is the equivalent of clicking an "on" switch. Best, Alec On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 6:52 AM, James Frankland > wrote: Hi Alec, Before i report my finding of last night, i think i might be being a complete numpty. I am assuming that the radio will come on even though the transducer is not in the water? Obviously no signal but i was assuming the radio would at least crackle to life. Does the transducer need to be underwater before the radio will switch on?? Thanks James On 24 October 2013 13:09, James Frankland > wrote: Hi Alec, Ok, i think i get it. I will investigate later and report back...! Many thanks. James On 24 October 2013 12:56, Alec Smyth > wrote: Let me try and re-word this... You will find the cable has two conductors, but the connector has three contacts. Two of the contacts are connected to the same cable. Thus when you screw the connector onto the OTS unit, it closes a circuit between the two contacts. Don't cut open the connector, you can explore this just by checking continuity between the contacts. Sorry, I hope I'm not repeating myself! Alec On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 6:42 AM, James Frankland > wrote: Im a bit confused as when i cut the cable (some distance from the connector), there are only 2 cables. The inner cable and the shield. So not sure where this 3rd cable is. I will take the connector appart and investigate.... Thanks james On 24 October 2013 11:20, Alec Smyth > wrote: In the connector you screw onto the OTS box, just connect both 1 and 3 to the same cable. Best, Alec On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 5:02 AM, James Frankland > wrote: Hi Emile\Alec, Thanks for that info. Not quite sure how i can connect pins 1 and 3, but i will have another look at it later on after work and see how it looks. Many thanks James On 23 October 2013 18:14, Smyth, Alec > wrote: Hi James, OTS have done something clever. The OTS transducer has only two contacts, but the when you use the factory cable for mounting the transducer remotely you will notice the cable connector has three contacts. What they are doing is using two of them (#1 and #3) connected together to act as a switch, so that when you plug in the cable the OTS box turns on. I think if you keep your current arrangement, but also connect contacts 1 and 3, you might find it works. Best, Alec From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Emile van Essen Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 12:34 PM To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue James, It usually gives no problem to cut a transducer cable and solder it again. Don't forget the shield. Obvious, the transducer must be in water and may not be in the shade of the sub. Got mine on top of the sail. Best place but works not on surface.. BTW; I am dealer of Ocean Reef UW Communication ; This brand share the same technology as OTS so you can talk between the 2 brands..) Best regards, Emile . ________________________________ Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens James Frankland Verzonden: woensdag 23 oktober 2013 18:05 Aan: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Onderwerp: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue Hi All, Anyone got any thoughts on this. My OTS surface station mounted inside the sub didnt work. It didnt even switch on. I checked the Vout at the batteries (16x AAA inside the unit) and it was good at 12V. I suspect the problem is that i cut the transducer cable to pass it through a sub conn bulkhead connector. When you plus the transducer into the unit, that is supposed to turn it on at the same time, but nothing. Suspect no signal from the transducer so unit not switching on. You can see the rubbish effort i made of it here. Im almost sure this is the fault. http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page22133.htm Anyone got any ideas? I need to get this fixed before the nest dive. Thanks James _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Fri Oct 25 08:42:07 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 05:42:07 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue Message-ID: <20131025054207.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.b19e33e72a.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Fri Oct 25 10:33:00 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 15:33:00 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue In-Reply-To: <20131025054207.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.b19e33e72a.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> References: <20131025054207.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.b19e33e72a.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> Message-ID: Alec\SCott, Yes, i will take it to the dive shop first before tinkering any more. Really annoying, its brand new! thanks James On 25 October 2013 13:42, wrote: > Alec, > My surface unit works the same with the connecting wires creating a > "switch" when the transducer is plugged in. My take is the connection in > the transducer is broken or the surface unit is broken. James, you might > take it to the tech dive shop and try one of there transducers and see > if it works then. If not then you know it is the surface unit. If it is the > surface unit, open up the surface unit and check the "switch" wires to be > sure they haven't been disconnected. Check the speaker wires to be sure > they haven't been disconnected. Just a some dumb possibilities... Make sure > volume is turned up, make sure to test the transducer you put it in water > or push it up against another transducer, be sure the speaker switch is > turned on, be sure the surface unit has a fully charged battery. Probably > not the problem, but just double check that stuff. > > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue > From: "Smyth, Alec" > Date: Fri, October 25, 2013 5:30 am > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > > Sounds like our transducer connectors are a little different, which > could be explained by the fact you have a surface unit whereas I use a > diver unit on the surface. I know Dan Lance, Cliff, and Scott all have > surface units like yours, so maybe they can weigh in. But to me it does > sound like it might be broken, and your plan to plug in an un-hacked > transducer the way to find out for sure. **** > ** ** > ** ** > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [ > mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > *On Behalf Of *James Frankland > *Sent:* Friday, October 25, 2013 8:20 AM > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue**** > ** ** > Hi Alec,**** > **** > Ok, at least i wasnt being a noddy.**** > **** > So, this is what i did.**** > **** > Plugged the batteries in and checked 12V at the output. All ok.**** > **** > At the back of the transducer socket, there are 3 wires coming out. 2 > go into 1 plug on the pcb and 1 goes into a seperate plug. Lets call them > A\B for the pair and C for the single.**** > **** > I could just get my meter on the exposed wires to check voltage.**** > **** > WITHOUT the transducer plugged in, I was getting 12v accross A\B to C > and also continuity the same.**** > **** > WITH the transducer plugged in i got nothing. No voltage at all and no > continuity between A\B and C.**** > **** > Next I manually connected pins 1 to 3 together in all configurations. > Nothing came on.**** > **** > I have a horrible feeling its broken.**** > **** > Next I am going to take the whole unit to my local tech dive shop. The > guy has lots of OTS kit and will have a transducer thats not been hacked > for me top try.**** > **** > regards**** > James**** > On 25 October 2013 13:09, Alec Smyth wrote:**** > The OTS box does not know whether the transducer is in the water or not. > What will turn it on is connecting the transducer cable. When you do so, > you are closing the connection between contacts 1 and 3, and closing that > circuit is the equivalent of clicking an "on" switch. **** > ** ** > Best,**** > ** ** > Alec**** > ** ** > On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 6:52 AM, James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote:**** > Hi Alec,**** > **** > Before i report my finding of last night, i think i might be being a > complete numpty. I am assuming that the radio will come on even though the > transducer is not in the water? Obviously no signal but i was assuming the > radio would at least crackle to life. Does the transducer need to be > underwater before the radio will switch on??**** > **** > Thanks**** > James**** > On 24 October 2013 13:09, James Frankland > wrote:**** > Hi Alec,**** > **** > Ok, i think i get it. I will investigate later and report back...! > Many thanks.**** > James**** > On 24 October 2013 12:56, Alec Smyth wrote:**** > Let me try and re-word this... You will find the cable has two > conductors, but the connector has three contacts. Two of the contacts are > connected to the same cable. Thus when you screw the connector onto the OTS > unit, it closes a circuit between the two contacts. Don't cut open the > connector, you can explore this just by checking continuity between the > contacts. **** > ** ** > Sorry, I hope I'm not repeating myself!**** > ** ** > > Alec**** > ** ** > On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 6:42 AM, James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote:**** > Im a bit confused as when i cut the cable (some distance from the > connector), there are only 2 cables. The inner cable and the shield. So > not sure where this 3rd cable is. I will take the connector appart and > investigate....**** > **** > Thanks**** > james**** > On 24 October 2013 11:20, Alec Smyth wrote:**** > In the connector you screw onto the OTS box, just connect both 1 and 3 > to the same cable. **** > ** ** > Best,**** > > Alec**** > ** ** > On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 5:02 AM, James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote:**** > Hi Emile\Alec,**** > > Thanks for that info. Not quite sure how i can connect pins 1 and 3, but > i will have another look at it later on after work and see how it looks.** > ** > Many thanks**** > James**** > On 23 October 2013 18:14, Smyth, Alec wrote:** > ** > > Hi James,**** > **** > OTS have done something clever. The OTS transducer has only two contacts, > but the when you use the factory cable for mounting the transducer remotely > you will notice the cable connector has three contacts. What they are doing > is using two of them (#1 and #3) connected together to act as a switch, so > that when you plug in the cable the OTS box turns on. I think if you keep > your current arrangement, but also connect contacts 1 and 3, you might find > it works.**** > **** > Best, > > Alec**** > **** > *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto: > personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Emile van Essen > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 23, 2013 12:34 PM > *To:* 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue**** > **** > James,**** > **** > It usually gives no problem to cut a transducer cable and solder it again. > Don?t forget the shield.**** > Obvious, the transducer must be in water and may not be in the shade of > the sub.**** > **** > Got mine on top of the sail. Best place but works not on surface..**** > **** > BTW; I am dealer of Ocean Reef UW Communication ; This brand share the > same technology as OTS so you can talk between the 2 brands..)**** > **** > **** > Best regards, Emile**** > .**** > **** > **** > **** > **** > ------------------------------ > *Van:* Personal_Submersibles [ > mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] > *Namens *James Frankland > *Verzonden:* woensdag 23 oktober 2013 18:05 > *Aan:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Onderwerp:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS Issue**** > **** > Hi All,**** > **** > Anyone got any thoughts on this.**** > **** > My OTS surface station mounted inside the sub didnt work. It didnt even > switch on. I checked the Vout at the batteries (16x AAA inside the unit) > and it was good at 12V.**** > **** > I suspect the problem is that i cut the transducer cable to pass it > through a sub conn bulkhead connector. When you plus the transducer into > the unit, that is supposed to turn it on at the same time, but nothing. > Suspect no signal from the transducer so unit not switching on.**** > **** > You can see the rubbish effort i made of it here. Im almost sure this > is the fault.**** > **** > http://www.guernseysubmarine.com/Extended_files/Page22133.htm**** > **** > Anyone got any ideas? I need to get this fixed before the nest dive.**** > **** > Thanks**** > James**** > ** ** > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles**** > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles**** > ** ** > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles**** > ** ** > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles**** > ** ** > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles**** > ** ** > ** ** > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles**** > ** ** > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles**** > ** ** > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Fri Oct 25 15:30:31 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 12:30:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive In-Reply-To: <1382695037.45489.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382695037.45489.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382729431.90970.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Alan, ? Take a look a Lewmar thrusters, they have a 90 deg transfer case and housing that is purpose built, hydro-dynamically clean, and better adaptable that an OB lower unit, (that looks a bit cumbersome). I've not yet ruled out purchasing one in a boating flea market to get a closer look. ? The advantage here would be two fold, matching already known specs exactly including the use of the props, tip clearance,.. etc, and secondly,?removing as you say the motor housing from the flow path. ? If I were to compensate, Id use the flex tubing method. But, I like pressure resistant housings for these "sport" depths. Like Popiel's Magic Oven, just "Set it and forget it!" ? Joe ________________________________ From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 5:57 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive Hi Psubbers I've been thinking about motor compensation options. Any thoughts about whether this idea may have any merits?..... Mount a brushless motor vertically on an outboard motor lower unit gear case & air compensate it. The length of the vertical drive shaft from the motor to the gear case gives plenty of margin of error for the air compensation system before any water could make its way to the motor. The gearing already exists for the higher speed of the brushless motor, & although there is an energy loss through the gearing there would be some savings in? that the motor is not directly in the path of the propellor thrust. A can would need to be made around the motor & sealed on to the lower unit. Regards Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Fri Oct 25 17:48:20 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 14:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive In-Reply-To: <1382729431.90970.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382695037.45489.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382729431.90970.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382737700.15540.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Joe, yes the bow thrusters are a better option. I thought that because of the mass production of outboards, that a lower unit may be?reasonably cheap & adaptable. After further Googling I found they were reasonably expensive & there could be issues with the gear case oil getting contaminated. Alan ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 8:30 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive Alan, ? Take a look a Lewmar thrusters, they have a 90 deg transfer case and housing that is purpose built, hydro-dynamically clean, and better adaptable that an OB lower unit, (that looks a bit cumbersome). I've not yet ruled out purchasing one in a boating flea market to get a closer look. ? The advantage here would be two fold, matching already known specs exactly including the use of the props, tip clearance,.. etc, and secondly,?removing as you say the motor housing from the flow path. ? If I were to compensate, Id use the flex tubing method. But, I like pressure resistant housings for these "sport" depths. Like Popiel's Magic Oven, just "Set it and forget it!" ? Joe From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 5:57 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive Hi Psubbers I've been thinking about motor compensation options. Any thoughts about whether this idea may have any merits?..... Mount a brushless motor vertically on an outboard motor lower unit gear case & air compensate it. The length of the vertical drive shaft from the motor to the gear case gives plenty of margin of error for the air compensation system before any water could make its way to the motor. The gearing already exists for the higher speed of the brushless motor, & although there is an energy loss through the gearing there would be some savings in? that the motor is not directly in the path of the propellor thrust. A can would need to be made around the motor & sealed on to the lower unit. Regards Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Sat Oct 26 06:03:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 26 Oct 2013 10:03 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive In-Reply-To: <1382737700.15540.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382695037.45489.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382729431.90970.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382737700.15540.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1Va0jF-3thzM00@fwd07.t-online.de> I did this in the past. Looks cool and second hand lower units are relative unexpensive if you purchase ouboards with damage heads - but do not work well. Special with a oil hydraulic forward and aft shift system it is nearly impossible. Needs allways a iddle rpm of the engine to feed the oil pump and to shift. Means you have to run forward to shift in reverse and opposite. Or need a clunch. Also the modern units are more complicate in the shift and oil system than it looks like. http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/equipment/Bowthrustermockeup01.jpg http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/equipment/IMG_5913a.jpg We scrapp both prototypes and purchase normal electric bowthruster and oil compensate them. Was much easier. vbr Carsten "Alan James" schrieb: Hi Joe, yes the bow thrusters are a better option. I thought that because of the mass production of outboards, that a lower unit may be reasonably cheap & adaptable. After further Googling I found they were reasonably expensive & there could be issues with the gear case oil getting contaminated. Alan From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 8:30 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive Alan, Take a look a Lewmar thrusters, they have a 90 deg transfer case and housing that is purpose built, hydro-dynamically clean, and better adaptable that an OB lower unit, (that looks a bit cumbersome). I've not yet ruled out purchasing one in a boating flea market to get a closer look. The advantage here would be two fold, matching already known specs exactly including the use of the props, tip clearance,.. etc, and secondly, removing as you say the motor housing from the flow path. If I were to compensate, Id use the flex tubing method. But, I like pressure resistant housings for these "sport" depths. Like Popiel's Magic Oven, just "Set it and forget it!" Joe From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 5:57 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive Hi Psubbers I've been thinking about motor compensation options. Any thoughts about whether this idea may have any merits?..... Mount a brushless motor vertically on an outboard motor lower unit gear case & air compensate it. The length of the vertical drive shaft from the motor to the gear case gives plenty of margin of error for the air compensation system before any water could make its way to the motor. The gearing already exists for the higher speed of the brushless motor, & although there is an energy loss through the gearing there would be some savings in that the motor is not directly in the path of the propellor thrust. A can would need to be made around the motor & sealed on to the lower unit. Regards Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: medium[1].jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18791 bytes Desc: not available URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sat Oct 26 09:53:41 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 06:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive In-Reply-To: <1Va0jF-3thzM00@fwd07.t-online.de> References: <1382695037.45489.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382729431.90970.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382737700.15540.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1Va0jF-3thzM00@fwd07.t-online.de> Message-ID: <1382795621.25804.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Thank you Carsten!, It is very helpful to see what has been?done by others successfully or not so. ? Joe ________________________________ From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 6:03 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive I did?this in the past. Looks cool and second hand lower units are relative unexpensive if you purchase ouboards with damage heads - but?do not work well.?? Special with a oil hydraulic forward and aft shift system it is nearly impossible. Needs allways a iddle rpm of the engine to feed the oil pump and to shift. Means you have to run forward to shift in reverse and opposite. Or need a clunch. Also the modern units are more complicate in the shift and oil system than it looks like. http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/equipment/Bowthrustermockeup01.jpg http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/equipment/IMG_5913a.jpg We scrapp both prototypes and purchase normal electric bowthruster and oil compensate them. Was much easier. vbr Carsten "Alan James" schrieb: Hi Joe, >yes the bow thrusters are a better option. >I thought that because of the mass production of outboards, that a lower unit may be?reasonably cheap & adaptable. After further Googling I found they were reasonably expensive & there could be issues with the gear case oil getting contaminated. >Alan > > > >________________________________ >From: Joe Perkel >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 8:30 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive > > > >Alan, >? >Take a look a Lewmar thrusters, they have a 90 deg transfer case and housing that is purpose built, hydro-dynamically clean, and better adaptable that an OB lower unit, (that looks a bit cumbersome). I've not yet ruled out purchasing one in a boating flea market to get a closer look. >? >The advantage here would be two fold, matching already known specs exactly including the use of the props, tip clearance,.. etc, and secondly,?removing as you say the motor housing from the flow path. >? >If I were to compensate, Id use the flex tubing method. But, I like pressure resistant housings for these "sport" depths. Like Popiel's Magic Oven, just "Set it and forget it!" >? >Joe > > > >________________________________ >From: Alan James >To: psubs.org >Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 5:57 AM >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive > > > >Hi Psubbers >I've been thinking about motor compensation options. >Any thoughts about whether this idea may have any merits?..... >Mount a brushless motor vertically on an outboard motor lower unit gear case >& air compensate it. >The length of the vertical drive shaft from the motor to the gear case gives >plenty of margin of error for the air compensation system before any water >could make its way to the motor. >The gearing already exists for the higher speed of the brushless motor, & although >there is an energy loss through the gearing there would be some savings in? >that the motor is not directly in the path of the propellor thrust. >A can would need to be made around the motor & sealed on to the lower unit. >Regards Alan > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > >? -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Sat Oct 26 09:54:38 2013 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 13:54:38 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive Message-ID: <201310260654770.SM00820@[66.162.33.185]> Hi Carsten, ?????????????????????? Do you need to worry about expansion of the oil when the bow thruster motor heats up?? Do you have a remedy for that?? or maybe it's not a problem because you use it only when docking. Brian -----Original Message----- From: Sent 10/26/2013 3:03:00 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor DriveE-Mail Software 6.0I did?this in the past. Looks cool and second hand lower units are relative unexpensive if you purchase ouboards with damage heads - but?do not work well.?? Special with a oil hydraulic forward and aft shift system it is nearly impossible. Needs allways a iddle rpm of the engine to feed the oil pump and to shift. Means you have to run forward to shift in reverse and opposite. Or need a clunch. Also the modern units are more complicate in the shift and oil system than it looks like. http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/equipment/Bowthrustermockeup01.jpghttp://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/equipment/IMG_5913a.jpg We scrapp both prototypes and purchase normal electric bowthruster and oil compensate them. Was much easier. vbr Carsten "Alan James" schrieb: Hi Joe,yes the bow thrusters are a better option.I thought that because of the mass production of outboards, that a lower unit may be?reasonably cheap & adaptable. After further Googling I found they were reasonably expensive & there could be issues with the gear case oil getting contaminated.AlanFrom: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 8:30 AMSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor DriveAlan,?Take a look a Lewmar thrusters, they have a 90 deg transfer case and housing that is purpose built, hydro-dynamically clean, and better adaptable that an OB lower unit, (that looks a bit cumbersome). I've not yet ruled out purchasing one in a boating flea market to get a closer look.?The advantage here would be two fold, matching already known specs exactly including the use of the props, tip clearance,.. etc, and secondly,?removing as you say the motor housing from the flow path.?If I were to compensate, Id use the flex tubing method. But, I like pressure resistant housings for these "sport" depths. Like Popiel'sMagic Oven, just "Set it and forget it!"?JoeFrom: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 5:57 AMSubject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor DriveHi PsubbersI've been thinking about motor compensation options.Any thoughts about whether this idea may have any merits?.....Mount a brushless motor vertically on an outboard motor lower unit gear case& air compensate it.The length of the vertical drive shaft from the motor to the gear case givesplenty of margin of error for the air compensation system before any watercould make its way to the motor.The gearing already exists for the higher speed of the brushless motor, & althoughthere is an energy loss through the gearing there would be some savings in?that the motor is not directly in the path of the propellor thrust.A can would need to be made around the motor & sealed on to the lower unit.Regards Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles? -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sat Oct 26 10:23:34 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 07:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote Message-ID: <1382797414.67706.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> This early interest of mine in thrusters has to do with sizing of the vehicle; I need to know what is?available to me in order?to make decision points before I spend the next few hundred hours on a CAD model. Below is a quote I received for an electric thruster 60 - 70 lbs @ 110 - 300vdc, and a hydraulic one 70 lbs @ 2000 psi and 2 gal/min flow rate. It would be rude of me to identify the company, this was my quote, and someone else's may be different. ? Hydraulic Motor only .16 cu in displacement at 2,420.00 each. ? Hydraulic Thruster complete with the above motor at 5,170.00 each. Thruster complete less motor at USD 2750.00 each.?? This include the duct, prop, hardware etc..? Everything less the motor. ?An electric or hydraulic motor can be installed onto it. ? Electric Thrusters range from 9,000.00 to 11,000.00 depending on the voltage requirements, feedback requirements, etc?? I would need more info from you in able to recommend a particular electric thruster to you.? The prices do not include controllers.? Many of our customers use their own or we can recommend one to you. ? This confirms for me that I am solidly entrenched in the homebuilt thruster design business. ? Joe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Oct 26 10:46:54 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 07:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote In-Reply-To: <1382797414.67706.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382797414.67706.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382798814.94962.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, I look forward to your designs.??I am available to make prototypes for you,? I have two 24v wheelchair motors and controller.? We could start with them.? Hank? From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 8:23:34 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote This early interest of mine in thrusters has to do with sizing of the vehicle; I need to know what is?available to me in order?to make decision points before I spend the next few hundred hours on a CAD model. Below is a quote I received for an electric thruster 60 - 70 lbs @ 110 - 300vdc, and a hydraulic one 70 lbs @ 2000 psi and 2 gal/min flow rate. It would be rude of me to identify the company, this was my quote, and someone else's may be different. ? Hydraulic Motor only .16 cu in displacement at 2,420.00 each. ? Hydraulic Thruster complete with the above motor at 5,170.00 each. Thruster complete less motor at USD 2750.00 each.?? This include the duct, prop, hardware etc..? Everything less the motor. ?An electric or hydraulic motor can be installed onto it. ? Electric Thrusters range from 9,000.00 to 11,000.00 depending on the voltage requirements, feedback requirements, etc?? I would need more info from you in able to recommend a particular electric thruster to you.? The prices do not include controllers.? Many of our customers use their own or we can recommend one to you. ? This confirms for me that I am solidly entrenched in the homebuilt thruster design business. ? Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sat Oct 26 10:59:41 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 10:59:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote In-Reply-To: <1382797414.67706.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382797414.67706.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0A073220EAA33-166C-11D2A@webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com> Joe, Here are a couple of websites of vendors which include pricing: www.westmarine.com www.marinedeal.com The Lewmar I've pasted below is $1239 USD per the site. It's all electric (not hydraulic), 3 hp, 92 lb thrust. It's the smallest one they list, and they can get as big and expensive as you want. Model Hub Voltage Power (hp) Tunnel Size (in) Thrust (lbs) Weight (lbs) 140TT2.2 Composite 12v 3.0 5 1/2 92 29 Dimensions A B C D 4 5/6 9 1/4 5 1/2 2 7/8 -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Sat, Oct 26, 2013 9:24 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote This early interest of mine in thrusters has to do with sizing of the vehicle; I need to know what is available to me in order to make decision points before I spend the next few hundred hours on a CAD model. Below is a quote I received for an electric thruster 60 - 70 lbs @ 110 - 300vdc, and a hydraulic one 70 lbs @ 2000 psi and 2 gal/min flow rate. It would be rude of me to identify the company, this was my quote, and someone else's may be different. Hydraulic Motor only .16 cu in displacement at 2,420.00 each. Hydraulic Thruster complete with the above motor at 5,170.00 each. Thruster complete less motor at USD 2750.00 each. This include the duct, prop, hardware etc.. Everything less the motor. An electric or hydraulic motor can be installed onto it. Electric Thrusters range from 9,000.00 to 11,000.00 depending on the voltage requirements, feedback requirements, etc? I would need more info from you in able to recommend a particular electric thruster to you. The prices do not include controllers. Many of our customers use their own or we can recommend one to you. This confirms for me that I am solidly entrenched in the homebuilt thruster design business. Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sat Oct 26 11:07:35 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 08:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote In-Reply-To: <1382798814.94962.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1382797414.67706.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382798814.94962.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382800055.19335.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Ok Hank, ..."Let's Roll" ? Let's start by sending me the nameplate data on one of those motors so I can find a manufacturers dimensional drawing on global spec. ? Were' going to enclose whatever it is you have in a 1atm housing and use a Marin 37 Kort nozzle and see what we get out of it.. We'll try to see what's available mag coupling wise, but can go with a standard shaft seal if need be. ? ? Joe ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote Joe, I look forward to your designs.??I am available to make prototypes for you,? I have two 24v wheelchair motors and controller.? We could start with them.? Hank? ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 8:23:34 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote This early interest of mine in thrusters has to do with sizing of the vehicle; I need to know what is?available to me in order?to make decision points before I spend the next few hundred hours on a CAD model. Below is a quote I received for an electric thruster 60 - 70 lbs @ 110 - 300vdc, and a hydraulic one 70 lbs @ 2000 psi and 2 gal/min flow rate. It would be rude of me to identify the company, this was my quote, and someone else's may be different. ? Hydraulic Motor only .16 cu in displacement at 2,420.00 each. ? Hydraulic Thruster complete with the above motor at 5,170.00 each. Thruster complete less motor at USD 2750.00 each.?? This include the duct, prop, hardware etc..? Everything less the motor. ?An electric or hydraulic motor can be installed onto it. ? Electric Thrusters range from 9,000.00 to 11,000.00 depending on the voltage requirements, feedback requirements, etc?? I would need more info from you in able to recommend a particular electric thruster to you.? The prices do not include controllers.? Many of our customers use their own or we can recommend one to you. ? This confirms for me that I am solidly entrenched in the homebuilt thruster design business. ? Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Sat Oct 26 12:14:25 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 09:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote In-Reply-To: <1382800055.19335.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382797414.67706.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382798814.94962.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382800055.19335.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382804065.59288.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, I just picked up the chair from my storage and I will take a picture of the name plate and send it to you.? Send me an e mail that I can send you a pic.? Remember that I also have the controller.? I will test it all today. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 9:07:35 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote Ok Hank, ..."Let's Roll" ? Let's start by sending me the nameplate data on one of those motors so I can find a manufacturers dimensional drawing on global spec. ? Were' going to enclose whatever it is you have in a 1atm housing and use a Marin 37 Kort nozzle and see what we get out of it.. We'll try to see what's available mag coupling wise, but can go with a standard shaft seal if need be. ? ? Joe From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote Joe, I look forward to your designs.??I am available to make prototypes for you,? I have two 24v wheelchair motors and controller.? We could start with them.? Hank? From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 8:23:34 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote This early interest of mine in thrusters has to do with sizing of the vehicle; I need to know what is?available to me in order?to make decision points before I spend the next few hundred hours on a CAD model. Below is a quote I received for an electric thruster 60 - 70 lbs @ 110 - 300vdc, and a hydraulic one 70 lbs @ 2000 psi and 2 gal/min flow rate. It would be rude of me to identify the company, this was my quote, and someone else's may be different. ? Hydraulic Motor only .16 cu in displacement at 2,420.00 each. ? Hydraulic Thruster complete with the above motor at 5,170.00 each. Thruster complete less motor at USD 2750.00 each.?? This include the duct, prop, hardware etc..? Everything less the motor. ?An electric or hydraulic motor can be installed onto it. ? Electric Thrusters range from 9,000.00 to 11,000.00 depending on the voltage requirements, feedback requirements, etc?? I would need more info from you in able to recommend a particular electric thruster to you.? The prices do not include controllers.? Many of our customers use their own or we can recommend one to you. ? This confirms for me that I am solidly entrenched in the homebuilt thruster design business. ? Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sat Oct 26 13:22:46 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 10:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote In-Reply-To: <1382804065.59288.YahooMailNeo@web120706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382808166.9230.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hank, I have two

Josephperkel at yahoo.com

Joeperkel at hotmail.com

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sat Oct 26 13:47:15 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 10:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote In-Reply-To: <8D0A073220EAA33-166C-11D2A@webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1382809635.59509.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Jim,

I've spotted these and they are very high on my candidate list. The thing that I've noticed is that the ampere usage goes up with the lower input voltages. 24 - 48 vdc is what I'm targeting.

What's bothering me is that I can't seem to match the Lewmars power in a motor/reduction package at 4" (#4 Sch40) diameter without going too high on the input voltages.

A pair of those 185tt thrusters @ 24v with the motors enclosed could go laterally on the stern "Shinkai" style and do the job quite nicely for main propulsion. Probably too much but, more than enough to make headway or hold station in a current.

It's maneuvering thrusters that present the problem. Right now, the Minn Kotas don't look so bad, but I'm going to see what I can do with Hanks motor.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sat Oct 26 15:17:12 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 08:17:12 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote In-Reply-To: <1382809635.59509.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382809635.59509.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <123A43A3-4CCE-4590-9019-F4984C96E92B@yahoo.com> Thanks Carsten, you seemed to have tried everything. Joe, the higher voltage motors would have an impact in reducing the heat in the motor. It would lower the amperage for the same power & reduce the heat in the windings. The heat may be a consideration with modifying a Lewars bow thruster as you would have to encapsulate a motor that is designed to have some air cooling. As another Psubbers said " when you enclose an electric motor you are creating an oven". The Minn Kota would be designed as a totally sealed unit able to handle the heat produced in shallow, warm water operation. The only thing I don't like about the Minn Kota is there is no thrust bearing for reverse. Which might be OK on the horizontal thrusters where there isn't much call for reversing them. But not so good on fixed vertical thrusters where you would be running them as much in forward as reverse. Wonder if there is room inside them to add a thrust bearing. Here is a very good article on underwater motors that states that the main cause of failure is overheating. www.submersiblemotorengineering.info/overheat.htm Alan Sent from my iPad On 27/10/2013, at 6:47 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > Jim, > > I've spotted these and they are very high on my candidate list. The thing that I've noticed is that the ampere usage goes up with the lower input voltages. 24 - 48 vdc is what I'm targeting. > > What's bothering me is that I can't seem to match the Lewmars power in a motor/reduction package at 4" (#4 Sch40) diameter without going too high on the input voltages. > > A pair of those 185tt thrusters @ 24v with the motors enclosed could go laterally on the stern "Shinkai" style and do the job quite nicely for main propulsion. Probably too much but, more than enough to make headway or hold station in a current. > > It's maneuvering thrusters that present the problem. Right now, the Minn Kotas don't look so bad, but I'm going to see what I can do with Hanks motor. > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com ; > To: ; > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote > Sent: Sat, Oct 26, 2013 2:59:41 PM > > Joe, > Here are a couple of websites of vendors which include pricing: > www.westmarine.com > www.marinedeal.com The Lewmar I've pasted below is $1239 USD per the site. It's all electric (not hydraulic), 3 hp, 92 lb thrust. It's the smallest one they list, and they can get as big and expensive as you want. > > > Model Hub Voltage Power (hp) Tunnel Size (in) Thrust (lbs) Weight (lbs) > 140TT2.2 Composite 12v 3.0 5 1/2 92 29 > Dimensions > > A B C D > 4 5/6 9 1/4 5 1/2 2 7/8 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Perkel > To: Psubbers Mailist > Sent: Sat, Oct 26, 2013 9:24 am > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote > > This early interest of mine in thrusters has to do with sizing of the vehicle; I need to know what is available to me in order to make decision points before I spend the next few hundred hours on a CAD model. Below is a quote I received for an electric thruster 60 - 70 lbs @ 110 - 300vdc, and a hydraulic one 70 lbs @ 2000 psi and 2 gal/min flow rate. It would be rude of me to identify the company, this was my quote, and someone else's may be different. > > Hydraulic Motor only .16 cu in displacement at 2,420.00 each. > > Hydraulic Thruster complete with the above motor at 5,170.00 each. > Thruster complete less motor at USD 2750.00 each. This include the duct, prop, hardware etc.. Everything less the motor. An electric or hydraulic motor can be installed onto it. > > Electric Thrusters range from 9,000.00 to 11,000.00 depending on the voltage requirements, feedback requirements, etc? I would need more info from you in able to recommend a particular electric thruster to you. The prices do not include controllers. Many of our customers use their own or we can recommend one to you. > > This confirms for me that I am solidly entrenched in the homebuilt thruster design business. > > Joe > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Sat Oct 26 15:56:31 2013 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 09:56:31 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive In-Reply-To: <201310260654770.SM00820@[66.162.33.185]> References: <201310260654770.SM00820@[66.162.33.185]> Message-ID: E-Mail Software 6.0Hi Brian I just had a bow thruster put in my sailboat, per, my wife?s insistence as she was the one who had to do the leap of faith to the dock with bow and stern lines in hand, and it draws a lot of power so I had to put in a dedicated battery for it but the spec?s say that it will shut off automatically after three minutes of continues use to prevent any damage from over heating. Might want to check into that before going that direction? Rick From: brian Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 3:54 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive Hi Carsten, Do you need to worry about expansion of the oil when the bow thruster motor heats up? Do you have a remedy for that? or maybe it's not a problem because you use it only when docking. Brian -----Original Message----- From: Sent 10/26/2013 3:03:00 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive I did this in the past. Looks cool and second hand lower units are relative unexpensive if you purchase ouboards with damage heads - but do not work well. Special with a oil hydraulic forward and aft shift system it is nearly impossible. Needs allways a iddle rpm of the engine to feed the oil pump and to shift. Means you have to run forward to shift in reverse and opposite. Or need a clunch. Also the modern units are more complicate in the shift and oil system than it looks like. http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/equipment/Bowthrustermockeup01.jpg http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/equipment/IMG_5913a.jpg We scrapp both prototypes and purchase normal electric bowthruster and oil compensate them. Was much easier. vbr Carsten "Alan James" schrieb: Hi Joe, yes the bow thrusters are a better option. I thought that because of the mass production of outboards, that a lower unit may be reasonably cheap & adaptable. After further Googling I found they were reasonably expensive & there could be issues with the gear case oil getting contaminated. Alan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 8:30 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive Alan, Take a look a Lewmar thrusters, they have a 90 deg transfer case and housing that is purpose built, hydro-dynamically clean, and better adaptable that an OB lower unit, (that looks a bit cumbersome). I've not yet ruled out purchasing one in a boating flea market to get a closer look. The advantage here would be two fold, matching already known specs exactly including the use of the props, tip clearance,.. etc, and secondly, removing as you say the motor housing from the flow path. If I were to compensate, Id use the flex tubing method. But, I like pressure resistant housings for these "sport" depths. Like Popiel's Magic Oven, just "Set it and forget it!" Joe From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 5:57 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive Hi Psubbers I've been thinking about motor compensation options. Any thoughts about whether this idea may have any merits?..... Mount a brushless motor vertically on an outboard motor lower unit gear case & air compensate it. The length of the vertical drive shaft from the motor to the gear case gives plenty of margin of error for the air compensation system before any water could make its way to the motor. The gearing already exists for the higher speed of the brushless motor, & although there is an energy loss through the gearing there would be some savings in that the motor is not directly in the path of the propellor thrust. A can would need to be made around the motor & sealed on to the lower unit. Regards Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Sat Oct 26 16:25:00 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 16:25:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote In-Reply-To: <1382809635.59509.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382809635.59509.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0A0A0944AE69D-166C-13C6E@webmail-d141.sysops.aol.com> Joe, It's very surprising that that the Lewmars don't move up to 24v until the 8 hp model which is listed at 12v/24v. The only things I plan to use 12v for are hotel load and possibly a couple of actuators. For maneuvering motors I keep coming back to Minnkotas. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Sat, Oct 26, 2013 12:47 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote Jim, I've spotted these and they are very high on my candidate list. The thing that I've noticed is that the ampere usage goes up with the lower input voltages. 24 - 48 vdc is what I'm targeting. What's bothering me is that I can't seem to match the Lewmars power in a motor/reduction package at 4" (#4 Sch40) diameter without going too high on the input voltages. A pair of those 185tt thrusters @ 24v with the motors enclosed could go laterally on the stern "Shinkai" style and do the job quite nicely for main propulsion. Probably too much but, more than enough to make headway or hold station in a current. It's maneuvering thrusters that present the problem. Right now, the Minn Kotas don't look so bad, but I'm going to see what I can do with Hanks motor. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote Sent: Sat, Oct 26, 2013 2:59:41 PM Joe, Here are a couple of websites of vendors which include pricing: www.westmarine.com www.marinedeal.com The Lewmar I've pasted below is $1239 USD per the site. It's all electric (not hydraulic), 3 hp, 92 lb thrust. It's the smallest one they list, and they can get as big and expensive as you want. Model Hub Voltage Power (hp) Tunnel Size (in) Thrust (lbs) Weight (lbs) 140TT2.2 Composite 12v 3.0 5 1/2 92 29 Dimensions A B C D 4 5/6 9 1/4 5 1/2 2 7/8 -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Sat, Oct 26, 2013 9:24 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote This early interest of mine in thrusters has to do with sizing of the vehicle; I need to know what is available to me in order to make decision points before I spend the next few hundred hours on a CAD model. Below is a quote I received for an electric thruster 60 - 70 lbs @ 110 - 300vdc, and a hydraulic one 70 lbs @ 2000 psi and 2 gal/min flow rate. It would be rude of me to identify the company, this was my quote, and someone else's may be different. Hydraulic Motor only .16 cu in displacement at 2,420.00 each. Hydraulic Thruster complete with the above motor at 5,170.00 each. Thruster complete less motor at USD 2750.00 each. This include the duct, prop, hardware etc.. Everything less the motor. An electric or hydraulic motor can be installed onto it. Electric Thrusters range from 9,000.00 to 11,000.00 depending on the voltage requirements, feedback requirements, etc? I would need more info from you in able to recommend a particular electric thruster to you. The prices do not include controllers. Many of our customers use their own or we can recommend one to you. This confirms for me that I am solidly entrenched in the homebuilt thruster design business. Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sat Oct 26 16:57:46 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 13:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote In-Reply-To: <123A43A3-4CCE-4590-9019-F4984C96E92B@yahoo.com> References: <1382809635.59509.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <123A43A3-4CCE-4590-9019-F4984C96E92B@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382821066.18096.YahooMailNeo@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Alan, ? Yeah, I'm worried about heat. Keeping amps down through it is certainly a simple fix, no wonder why then the commercial?builders use such high input voltages. ? Ive been looking briefly but not yet in depth on DC to DC step up conversion, I'm not sure yet how that works. ? Yes Carsten thank you as well, seeing examples of rejected ideas is equally?as helpful as seeing the?successes. ? ? Joe ________________________________ From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 3:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote Thanks Carsten, you seemed to have tried everything. Joe, the higher voltage motors would have an impact in?reducing the heat in the motor.? It would lower the amperage for the same power &?reduce the heat in the windings.? The heat may be a consideration with modifying a?Lewars bow thruster as you would? have to encapsulate a motor that is designed to?have some air cooling.? As another Psubbers said " when you enclose an electric motor?you are creating an oven".? The Minn Kota would be designed as a totally sealed unit able to handle the?heat? produced in shallow, warm water operation. The only thing I don't like about the Minn Kota is there is no thrust bearing for reverse. Which might be OK on the horizontal thrusters where there isn't much call for reversing them. But not so good on fixed vertical thrusters where you would be running them as much in forward as reverse. Wonder if there is room inside them to add a thrust? bearing. Here is a very good article on underwater motors that states that the main cause of failure is overheating. www.submersiblemotorengineering.info/overheat.htm Alan Sent from my iPad On 27/10/2013, at 6:47 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Jim, > >I've spotted these and they are very high on my candidate list. The thing that I've noticed is that the ampere usage goes up with the lower input voltages. 24 - 48 vdc is what I'm targeting. > >What's bothering me is that I can't seem to match the Lewmars power in a motor/reduction package at 4" (#4 Sch40) diameter without going too high on the input voltages. > >A pair of those 185tt thrusters @ 24v with the motors enclosed could go laterally on the stern "Shinkai" style and do the job quite nicely for main propulsion. Probably too much but, more than enough to make headway or hold station in a current. > >It's maneuvering thrusters that present the problem. Right now, the Minn Kotas don't look so bad, but I'm going to see what I can do with Hanks motor. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > >________________________________ >From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com ; >To: ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote >Sent: Sat, Oct 26, 2013 2:59:41 PM > > >Joe, >Here are a couple of?websites?of?vendors which include pricing: >http://www.westmarine.com/ >http://www.marinedeal.com/? The Lewmar I've pasted below is $1239 USD per the site.? It's all electric (not hydraulic), 3 hp, 92 lb thrust.? It's the smallest one they list, and they can get as big and expensive as you want.?? >? > > >Model >Hub >Voltage >Power (hp) >Tunnel Size (in) >Thrust (lbs) >Weight (lbs) >140TT2.2 Composite 12v 3.0 5 1/2 92 29 >Dimensions >A B C D >4 5/6 9 1/4 5 1/2 2 7/8 > >? >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe Perkel >To: Psubbers Mailist >Sent: Sat, Oct 26, 2013 9:24 am >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote > > >This early interest of mine in thrusters has to do with sizing of the vehicle; I need to know what is?available to me in order?to make decision points before I spend the next few hundred hours on a CAD model. Below is a quote I received for an electric thruster 60 - 70 lbs @ 110 - 300vdc, and a hydraulic one 70 lbs @ 2000 psi and 2 gal/min flow rate. It would be rude of me to identify the company, this was my quote, and someone else's may be different. >? >Hydraulic Motor only .16 cu in displacement at 2,420.00 each. >? >Hydraulic Thruster complete with the above motor at 5,170.00 each. >Thruster complete less motor at USD 2750.00 each.?? This include the duct, prop, hardware etc..? Everything less the motor. ?An electric or hydraulic motor can be installed onto it. >? >Electric Thrusters range from 9,000.00 to 11,000.00 depending on the voltage requirements, feedback requirements, etc?? I would need more info from you in able to recommend a particular electric thruster to you.? The prices do not include controllers.? Many of our customers use their own or we can recommend one to you. >? >This confirms for me that I am solidly entrenched in the homebuilt thruster design business. >? >Joe > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From whitestar456 at manx.net Sat Oct 26 17:15:48 2013 From: whitestar456 at manx.net (Graham Bayliss) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 22:15:48 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote In-Reply-To: <1382821066.18096.YahooMailNeo@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382809635.59509.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <123A43A3-4CCE-4590-9019-F4984C96E92B@yahoo.com> <1382821066.18096.YahooMailNeo@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001801ced290$8bad0a20$a3071e60$@net> Hi Have you thought of using an agni motor it is variable voltage and small and power full and is use to power boats and sail drives just look for agni electric motors made in India . Graham From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Joe Perkel Sent: 26 October 2013 21:58 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote Alan, Yeah, I'm worried about heat. Keeping amps down through it is certainly a simple fix, no wonder why then the commercial builders use such high input voltages. Ive been looking briefly but not yet in depth on DC to DC step up conversion, I'm not sure yet how that works. Yes Carsten thank you as well, seeing examples of rejected ideas is equally as helpful as seeing the successes. Joe From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 3:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote Thanks Carsten, you seemed to have tried everything. Joe, the higher voltage motors would have an impact in reducing the heat in the motor. It would lower the amperage for the same power & reduce the heat in the windings. The heat may be a consideration with modifying a Lewars bow thruster as you would have to encapsulate a motor that is designed to have some air cooling. As another Psubbers said " when you enclose an electric motor you are creating an oven". The Minn Kota would be designed as a totally sealed unit able to handle the heat produced in shallow, warm water operation. The only thing I don't like about the Minn Kota is there is no thrust bearing for reverse. Which might be OK on the horizontal thrusters where there isn't much call for reversing them. But not so good on fixed vertical thrusters where you would be running them as much in forward as reverse. Wonder if there is room inside them to add a thrust bearing. Here is a very good article on underwater motors that states that the main cause of failure is overheating. www.submersiblemotorengineering.info/overheat.htm Alan Sent from my iPad On 27/10/2013, at 6:47 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Jim, I've spotted these and they are very high on my candidate list. The thing that I've noticed is that the ampere usage goes up with the lower input voltages. 24 - 48 vdc is what I'm targeting. What's bothering me is that I can't seem to match the Lewmars power in a motor/reduction package at 4" (#4 Sch40) diameter without going too high on the input voltages. A pair of those 185tt thrusters @ 24v with the motors enclosed could go laterally on the stern "Shinkai" style and do the job quite nicely for main propulsion. Probably too much but, more than enough to make headway or hold station in a current. It's maneuvering thrusters that present the problem. Right now, the Minn Kotas don't look so bad, but I'm going to see what I can do with Hanks motor. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote Sent: Sat, Oct 26, 2013 2:59:41 PM Joe, Here are a couple of websites of vendors which include pricing: http://www.westmarine.com/ http://www.marinedeal.com/ The Lewmar I've pasted below is $1239 USD per the site. It's all electric (not hydraulic), 3 hp, 92 lb thrust. It's the smallest one they list, and they can get as big and expensive as you want. Model Hub Voltage Power (hp) Tunnel Size (in) Thrust (lbs) Weight (lbs) 140TT2.2 Composite 12v 3.0 5 1/2 92 29 Dimensions A B C D 4 5/6 9 1/4 5 1/2 2 7/8 -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Sat, Oct 26, 2013 9:24 am Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote This early interest of mine in thrusters has to do with sizing of the vehicle; I need to know what is available to me in order to make decision points before I spend the next few hundred hours on a CAD model. Below is a quote I received for an electric thruster 60 - 70 lbs @ 110 - 300vdc, and a hydraulic one 70 lbs @ 2000 psi and 2 gal/min flow rate. It would be rude of me to identify the company, this was my quote, and someone else's may be different. Hydraulic Motor only .16 cu in displacement at 2,420.00 each. Hydraulic Thruster complete with the above motor at 5,170.00 each. Thruster complete less motor at USD 2750.00 each. This include the duct, prop, hardware etc.. Everything less the motor. An electric or hydraulic motor can be installed onto it. Electric Thrusters range from 9,000.00 to 11,000.00 depending on the voltage requirements, feedback requirements, etc? I would need more info from you in able to recommend a particular electric thruster to you. The prices do not include controllers. Many of our customers use their own or we can recommend one to you. This confirms for me that I am solidly entrenched in the homebuilt thruster design business. Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sat Oct 26 17:31:26 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 14:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote In-Reply-To: <001801ced290$8bad0a20$a3071e60$@net> References: <1382809635.59509.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <123A43A3-4CCE-4590-9019-F4984C96E92B@yahoo.com> <1382821066.18096.YahooMailNeo@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <001801ced290$8bad0a20$a3071e60$@net> Message-ID: <1382823086.23663.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Graham ? Ive seen those before, that's actually not a bad option for someone considering a large diesel electric sub. One of these could go in the machinery space and possibly?share the same shaft. ? Joe ________________________________ From: Graham Bayliss To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote Hi Have you thought of using an agni motor it is variable voltage and small and power full and is use to power boats and sail drives just look for agni electric motors? made in India . ? Graham ? From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Joe Perkel Sent: 26 October 2013 21:58 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote ? Alan, ? Yeah, I'm worried about heat. Keeping amps down through it is certainly a simple fix, no wonder why then the commercial?builders use such high input voltages. ? Ive been looking briefly but not yet in depth on DC to DC step up conversion, I'm not sure yet how that works. ? Yes Carsten thank you as well, seeing examples of rejected ideas is equally?as helpful as seeing the?successes. ? ? Joe ? From:Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 3:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote ? Thanks Carsten, you seemed to have tried everything. Joe, the higher voltage motors would have an impact in?reducing the heat in the motor.? It would lower the amperage for the same power &?reduce the heat in the windings.? The heat may be a consideration with modifying a?Lewars bow thruster as you would? have to encapsulate a motor that is designed to?have some air cooling.? As another Psubbers said " when you enclose an electric motor?you are creating an oven".? The Minn Kota would be designed as a totally sealed unit able to handle the?heat? produced in shallow, warm water operation. The only thing I don't like about the Minn Kota is there is no thrust bearing for reverse. Which might be OK on the horizontal thrusters where there isn't much call for reversing them. But not so good on fixed vertical thrusters where you would be running them as much in forward as reverse. Wonder if there is room inside them to add a thrust? bearing. Here is a very good article on underwater motors that states that the main cause of failure is overheating. www.submersiblemotorengineering.info/overheat.htm Alan Sent from my iPad On 27/10/2013, at 6:47 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Jim, > >I've spotted these and they are very high on my candidate list. The thing that I've noticed is that the ampere usage goes up with the lower input voltages. 24 - 48 vdc is what I'm targeting. > >What's bothering me is that I can't seem to match the Lewmars power in a motor/reduction package at 4" (#4 Sch40) diameter without going too high on the input voltages. > >A pair of those 185tt thrusters @ 24v with the motors enclosed could go laterally on the stern "Shinkai" style and do the job quite nicely for main propulsion. Probably too much but, more than enough to make headway or hold station in a current. > >It's maneuvering thrusters that present the problem. Right now, the Minn Kotas don't look so bad, but I'm going to see what I can do with Hanks motor. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >? >From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com ; >To: ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote >Sent: Sat, Oct 26, 2013 2:59:41 PM >? >Joe, >Here are a couple of?websites?of?vendors which include pricing: >http://www.westmarine.com/ >http://www.marinedeal.com/? The Lewmar I've pasted below is $1239 USD per the site.? It's all electric (not hydraulic), 3 hp, 92 lb thrust.? It's the smallest one they list, and they can get as big and expensive as you want.?? >? >? >Model Hub Voltage Power (hp) Tunnel Size (in) Thrust (lbs) Weight (lbs) >140TT2.2 Composite 12v 3.0 5 1/2 92 29 >Dimensions >A B C D >4 5/6 9 1/4 5 1/2 2 7/8 >? >? >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe Perkel >To: Psubbers Mailist >Sent: Sat, Oct 26, 2013 9:24 am >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote >This early interest of mine in thrusters has to do with sizing of the vehicle; I need to know what is?available to me in order?to make decision points before I spend the next few hundred hours on a CAD model. Below is a quote I received for an electric thruster 60 - 70 lbs @ 110 - 300vdc, and a hydraulic one 70 lbs @ 2000 psi and 2 gal/min flow rate. It would be rude of me to identify the company, this was my quote, and someone else's may be different. >? >Hydraulic Motor only .16 cu in displacement at 2,420.00 each. >? >Hydraulic Thruster complete with the above motor at 5,170.00 each. >Thruster complete less motor at USD 2750.00 each.?? This include the duct, prop, hardware etc..? Everything less the motor. ?An electric or hydraulic motor can be installed onto it. >? >Electric Thrusters range from 9,000.00 to 11,000.00 depending on the voltage requirements, feedback requirements, etc?? I would need more info from you in able to recommend a particular electric thruster to you.? The prices do not include controllers.? Many of our customers use their own or we can recommend one to you. >? >This confirms for me that I am solidly entrenched in the homebuilt thruster design business. >? >Joe >? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sat Oct 26 18:58:13 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 15:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote In-Reply-To: <1382823086.23663.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382809635.59509.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <123A43A3-4CCE-4590-9019-F4984C96E92B@yahoo.com> <1382821066.18096.YahooMailNeo@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <001801ced290$8bad0a20$a3071e60$@net> <1382823086.23663.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382828293.22425.YahooMailNeo@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Has anyone seen, or can point me to dimensional drawings for the various Minn Kotas? I have found a multitude of exploded views but, I'm looking specifically for dimensioned section drawings. ? Joe ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 5:31 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote Graham ? Ive seen those before, that's actually not a bad option for someone considering a large diesel electric sub. One of these could go in the machinery space and possibly?share the same shaft. ? Joe ________________________________ From: Graham Bayliss To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote Hi Have you thought of using an agni motor it is variable voltage and small and power full and is use to power boats and sail drives just look for agni electric motors? made in India . ? Graham ? From:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Joe Perkel Sent: 26 October 2013 21:58 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote Alan, ? Yeah, I'm worried about heat. Keeping amps down through it is certainly a simple fix, no wonder why then the commercial?builders use such high input voltages. ? Ive been looking briefly but not yet in depth on DC to DC step up conversion, I'm not sure yet how that works. ? Yes Carsten thank you as well, seeing examples of rejected ideas is equally?as helpful as seeing the?successes. ? ? Joe ? From:Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 3:17 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote ? Thanks Carsten, you seemed to have tried everything. Joe, the higher voltage motors would have an impact in?reducing the heat in the motor.? It would lower the amperage for the same power &?reduce the heat in the windings.? The heat may be a consideration with modifying a?Lewars bow thruster as you would? have to encapsulate a motor that is designed to?have some air cooling.? As another Psubbers said " when you enclose an electric motor?you are creating an oven".? The Minn Kota would be designed as a totally sealed unit able to handle the?heat? produced in shallow, warm water operation. The only thing I don't like about the Minn Kota is there is no thrust bearing for reverse. Which might be OK on the horizontal thrusters where there isn't much call for reversing them. But not so good on fixed vertical thrusters where you would be running them as much in forward as reverse. Wonder if there is room inside them to add a thrust? bearing. Here is a very good article on underwater motors that states that the main cause of failure is overheating. www.submersiblemotorengineering.info/overheat.htm Alan Sent from my iPad On 27/10/2013, at 6:47 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Jim, > >I've spotted these and they are very high on my candidate list. The thing that I've noticed is that the ampere usage goes up with the lower input voltages. 24 - 48 vdc is what I'm targeting. > >What's bothering me is that I can't seem to match the Lewmars power in a motor/reduction package at 4" (#4 Sch40) diameter without going too high on the input voltages. > >A pair of those 185tt thrusters @ 24v with the motors enclosed could go laterally on the stern "Shinkai" style and do the job quite nicely for main propulsion. Probably too much but, more than enough to make headway or hold station in a current. > >It's maneuvering thrusters that present the problem. Right now, the Minn Kotas don't look so bad, but I'm going to see what I can do with Hanks motor. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >? >From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com ; >To: ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote >Sent: Sat, Oct 26, 2013 2:59:41 PM >? >Joe, >Here are a couple of?websites?of?vendors which include pricing: >http://www.westmarine.com/ >http://www.marinedeal.com/? The Lewmar I've pasted below is $1239 USD per the site.? It's all electric (not hydraulic), 3 hp, 92 lb thrust.? It's the smallest one they list, and they can get as big and expensive as you want.?? >? >? >Model Hub Voltage Power (hp) Tunnel Size (in) Thrust (lbs) Weight (lbs) >140TT2.2 Composite 12v 3.0 5 1/2 92 29 >Dimensions >A B C D >4 5/6 9 1/4 5 1/2 2 7/8 >? >? >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe Perkel >To: Psubbers Mailist >Sent: Sat, Oct 26, 2013 9:24 am >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote >This early interest of mine in thrusters has to do with sizing of the vehicle; I need to know what is?available to me in order?to make decision points before I spend the next few hundred hours on a CAD model. Below is a quote I received for an electric thruster 60 - 70 lbs @ 110 - 300vdc, and a hydraulic one 70 lbs @ 2000 psi and 2 gal/min flow rate. It would be rude of me to identify the company, this was my quote, and someone else's may be different. >? >Hydraulic Motor only .16 cu in displacement at 2,420.00 each. >? >Hydraulic Thruster complete with the above motor at 5,170.00 each. >Thruster complete less motor at USD 2750.00 each.?? This include the duct, prop, hardware etc..? Everything less the motor. ?An electric or hydraulic motor can be installed onto it. >? >Electric Thrusters range from 9,000.00 to 11,000.00 depending on the voltage requirements, feedback requirements, etc?? I would need more info from you in able to recommend a particular electric thruster to you.? The prices do not include controllers.? Many of our customers use their own or we can recommend one to you. >? >This confirms for me that I am solidly entrenched in the homebuilt thruster design business. >? >Joe >? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Sat Oct 26 20:03:33 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 20:03:33 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold "Web" Maynard Message-ID: <526C5855.5090905@psubs.org> My fellow psubbers, I have been advised that Harold "Web" Maynard passed away October 21, 2013 after ill-health for a number of years. Harold was a good friend of Captain Kittredge and owner of a K-350 named "Lake Diver". Web was an excellent speaker and could keep your attention for hours describing his submarine diving experiences. For those of you unfamiliar with Harold, a link to a photo of him at the 2003 convention is included below. I have no information regarding funeral arrangements but will forward them upon receipt. http://www.psubs.org/convention/2003/pics.cgi?pics/speakers/p2.jpg From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Sat Oct 26 20:10:28 2013 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 00:10:28 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive Message-ID: <201310261710161.SM04964@[66.162.33.185]> Hi Rick, ????????????????? What kind of sailboat do you have and where are you? Brian -----Original Message----- From: "Land N Sea" Sent 10/26/2013 12:56:31 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor DriveE-Mail Software 6.0Hi Brian?I just had a bow thruster put in my sailboat, per, my wife?s insistence as she was the one who had to do the leap of faith to the dock with bow and stern lines in hand, and it draws a lot of power so I had to put in a dedicated battery for it but the spec?s say that it will shut off automatically after three minutes of continues use to prevent any damage from over heating. Might want to check into that before going that direction??Rick?From:brianSent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 3:54 AMTo:Personal Submersibles General DiscussionSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive?Hi Carsten, ?????????????????????? Do you need to worry about expansion of the oil when the bow thruster motor heats up?? Do you have a remedy for that?? or maybe it's not a problem because you use it only when docking. Brian -----Original Message----- From: Sent 10/26/2013 3:03:00 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor DriveI did this in the past. Looks cool and second hand lower units are relative unexpensive if you purchase ouboards with damage heads - but do not work well.? Special with a oil hydraulic forward and aft shift system it is nearly impossible. Needs allways a iddle rpm of the engine to feed the oil pump and to shift. Means you have to run forward to shift in reverse and opposite. Or need a clunch. Also the modern units are more complicate in the shift and oil system than it looks like. http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/equipment/Bowthrustermockeup01.jpghttp://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/equipment/IMG_5913a.jpg We scrapp both prototypes and purchase normal electric bowthruster and oil compensate them. Was much easier. vbr Carsten "Alan James" schrieb: Hi Joe,yes the bow thrusters are a better option.I thought that because of the mass production of outboards, that a lower unit may be reasonably cheap & adaptable. After further Googling I found they were reasonably expensive & there could be issues with the gear case oil getting contaminated.Alan?From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 8:30 AMSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive?Alan,?Take a look a Lewmar thrusters, they have a 90 deg transfer case and housing that is purpose built, hydro-dynamically clean, and better adaptable that an OB lower unit, (that looks a bit cumbersome). I've not yet ruled out purchasing one in a boating flea market to get a closer look.?The advantage here would be two fold, matching already known specs exactly including the use of the props, tip clearance,.. etc, and secondly, removing as you say the motor housing from the flow path.?If I were to compensate, Id use the flex tubing method. But, I like pressure resistant housings for these "sport" depths. Like Popiel'sMagic Oven, just "Set it and forget it!"?Joe?From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 5:57 AMSubject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive?Hi PsubbersI've been thinking about motor compensation options.Any thoughts about whether this idea may have any merits?.....Mount a brushless motor vertically on an outboard motor lower unit gear case& air compensate it.The length of the vertical drive shaft from the motor to the gear case givesplenty of margin of error for the air compensation system before any watercould make its way to the motor.The gearing already exists for the higher speed of the brushless motor, & althoughthere is an energy loss through the gearing there would be some savings in that the motor is not directly in the path of the propellor thrust.A can would need to be made around the motor & sealed on to the lower unit.Regards Alan? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles? -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Sat Oct 26 22:53:48 2013 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 16:53:48 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive In-Reply-To: <201310261710161.SM04964@[66.162.33.185]> References: <201310261710161.SM04964@[66.162.33.185]> Message-ID: <8E3BFC66CFEE4A12ACB8A6FFA79BB690@LandNSeaPC> E-Mail Software 6.0She?s a Hardin 45 ketch center cockpit. I keep her in the North West but live on the big island. Rick From: brian Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 2:10 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive Hi Rick, What kind of sailboat do you have and where are you? Brian -----Original Message----- From: "Land N Sea" Sent 10/26/2013 12:56:31 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive Hi Brian I just had a bow thruster put in my sailboat, per, my wife?s insistence as she was the one who had to do the leap of faith to the dock with bow and stern lines in hand, and it draws a lot of power so I had to put in a dedicated battery for it but the spec?s say that it will shut off automatically after three minutes of continues use to prevent any damage from over heating. Might want to check into that before going that direction? Rick From: brian Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 3:54 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive Hi Carsten, Do you need to worry about expansion of the oil when the bow thruster motor heats up? Do you have a remedy for that? or maybe it's not a problem because you use it only when docking. Brian -----Original Message----- From: Sent 10/26/2013 3:03:00 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive I did this in the past. Looks cool and second hand lower units are relative unexpensive if you purchase ouboards with damage heads - but do not work well. Special with a oil hydraulic forward and aft shift system it is nearly impossible. Needs allways a iddle rpm of the engine to feed the oil pump and to shift. Means you have to run forward to shift in reverse and opposite. Or need a clunch. Also the modern units are more complicate in the shift and oil system than it looks like. http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/equipment/Bowthrustermockeup01.jpg http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/equipment/IMG_5913a.jpg We scrapp both prototypes and purchase normal electric bowthruster and oil compensate them. Was much easier. vbr Carsten "Alan James" schrieb: Hi Joe, yes the bow thrusters are a better option. I thought that because of the mass production of outboards, that a lower unit may be reasonably cheap & adaptable. After further Googling I found they were reasonably expensive & there could be issues with the gear case oil getting contaminated. Alan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 8:30 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive Alan, Take a look a Lewmar thrusters, they have a 90 deg transfer case and housing that is purpose built, hydro-dynamically clean, and better adaptable that an OB lower unit, (that looks a bit cumbersome). I've not yet ruled out purchasing one in a boating flea market to get a closer look. The advantage here would be two fold, matching already known specs exactly including the use of the props, tip clearance,.. etc, and secondly, removing as you say the motor housing from the flow path. If I were to compensate, Id use the flex tubing method. But, I like pressure resistant housings for these "sport" depths. Like Popiel's Magic Oven, just "Set it and forget it!" Joe From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 5:57 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive Hi Psubbers I've been thinking about motor compensation options. Any thoughts about whether this idea may have any merits?..... Mount a brushless motor vertically on an outboard motor lower unit gear case & air compensate it. The length of the vertical drive shaft from the motor to the gear case gives plenty of margin of error for the air compensation system before any water could make its way to the motor. The gearing already exists for the higher speed of the brushless motor, & although there is an energy loss through the gearing there would be some savings in that the motor is not directly in the path of the propellor thrust. A can would need to be made around the motor & sealed on to the lower unit. Regards Alan _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com Sat Oct 26 23:25:21 2013 From: brian at ojaivalleybeefarm.com (brian) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 03:25:21 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive Message-ID: <201310262025114.SM05320@[66.162.33.185]> Wow, that's really great.? We've been sailing out of the Channel Islands Harbor ( Ventura, California area) on a variety of boats through a sailing club.? It would be nice to have good sized boat like yours, lots of room !? Brian -----Original Message----- From: "Land N Sea" Sent 10/26/2013 7:53:48 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor DriveE-Mail Software 6.0She?s a Hardin 45 ketch center cockpit. I keep her in the North West but live on the big island. ?Rick?From:brianSent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 2:10 PMTo:Personal Submersibles General DiscussionSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive?Hi Rick, ????????????????? What kind of sailboat do you have and where are you? Brian -----Original Message----- From: "Land N Sea" Sent 10/26/2013 12:56:31 PM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor DriveHi Brian?I just had a bow thruster put in my sailboat, per, my wife?s insistence as she was the one who had to do the leap of faith to the dock with bow and stern lines in hand, and it draws a lot of power so I had to put in a dedicated battery for it but the spec?s say that it will shut off automatically after three minutes of continues use to prevent any damage from over heating. Might want to check into that before going that direction??Rick?From:brianSent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 3:54 AMTo:Personal Submersibles General DiscussionSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive?Hi Carsten, ?????????????????????? Do you need to worry about expansion of the oil when the bow thruster motor heats up?? Do you have a remedy for that?? or maybe it's not a problem because you use it only when docking. Brian -----Original Message----- From: Sent 10/26/2013 3:03:00 AM To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor DriveI did this in the past. Looks cool and second hand lower units are relative unexpensive if you purchase ouboards with damage heads - but do not work well.? Special with a oil hydraulic forward and aft shift system it is nearly impossible. Needs allways a iddle rpm of the engine to feed the oil pump and to shift. Means you have to run forward to shift in reverse and opposite. Or need a clunch. Also the modern units are more complicate in the shift and oil system than it looks like. http://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/equipment/Bowthrustermockeup01.jpghttp://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/equipment/IMG_5913a.jpg We scrapp both prototypes and purchase normal electric bowthruster and oil compensate them. Was much easier. vbr Carsten "Alan James" schrieb: Hi Joe,yes the bow thrusters are a better option.I thought that because of the mass production of outboards, that a lower unit may be reasonably cheap & adaptable. After further Googling I found they were reasonably expensive & there could be issues with the gear case oil getting contaminated.Alan?From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 8:30 AMSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive?Alan,?Take a look a Lewmar thrusters, they have a 90 deg transfer case and housing that is purpose built, hydro-dynamically clean, and better adaptable that an OB lower unit, (that looks a bit cumbersome). I've not yet ruled out purchasing one in a boating flea market to get a closer look.?The advantage here would be two fold, matching already known specs exactly including the use of the props, tip clearance,.. etc, and secondly, removing as you say the motor housing from the flow path.?If I were to compensate, Id use the flex tubing method. But, I like pressure resistant housings for these "sport" depths. Like Popiel'sMagic Oven, just "Set it and forget it!"?Joe?From: Alan James To: psubs.org Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 5:57 AMSubject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Brushless Motor Drive?Hi PsubbersI've been thinking about motor compensation options.Any thoughts about whether this idea may have any merits?.....Mount a brushless motor vertically on an outboard motor lower unit gear case& air compensate it.The length of the vertical drive shaft from the motor to the gear case givesplenty of margin of error for the air compensation system before any watercould make its way to the motor.The gearing already exists for the higher speed of the brushless motor, & althoughthere is an energy loss through the gearing there would be some savings in that the motor is not directly in the path of the propellor thrust.A can would need to be made around the motor & sealed on to the lower unit.Regards Alan? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles? -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Oct 27 08:29:33 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 05:29:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Message-ID: <1382876973.64200.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> All Psubber Alert.

A handful of members in conversation off list are coming to the conclusion that perhaps a best solution to the thruster issues discussed, is to improve on what has been demonstrated to already be viable. That is Minn Kotas as demonstrated by Snoopy, Idabel, et al. Parts are readily available and inexpensive. Case in point here,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaQuickRef.htm

Hank has graciously offered his efforts in modifying several he already has on hand, and I am willing to put in many hours of CAD work to come up with working drawings, with an eye on this armature in particular,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaArmatureAssy92-100-216.htm

The goal would be to add a mag coupling, Kort nozzle, and true reversibility to a package that is compact, (4" dia) and field serviceable / replaceable. The end product result would be open source to the PSUB community.

Immediate problem that needs a solution.

I need a lot of information and detail in order to proceed. Particularly what I need is dimensioned section drawings of appropriately sized models. Unfortunately, Minn Kota does not make this information readily available as demonstrated here,... http://www.minnkotamotors.com/service/ascs.aspx

We need help accessing this information otherwise the effort is hobbled from the start. If anyone can help in this regard it would help tremendously.

Joe


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Sun Oct 27 14:29:04 2013 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Private) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 14:29:04 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382876973.64200.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382876973.64200.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Joe, Thanks for doing this. I have a Minnkota 101 here that I can measure for you, but I also have some suggestions for your consideration. Oil or air compensation are both easy and trouble free, so I really don't see much value-add in the magnetic coupling. Or in a hard case. Ditto reverse, my trolling motor thrusters with 13 years on them have yet to wear out the reverse washer, and it's not like I don't use reverse. Where I do see real room for improvement is with props and nozzles. The stock props are very short pitched, so if you put several 101s on a small sub for main propulsion, I suspect you would not get the cruising speed that their combined horse power would otherwise achieve. In other words, it would be like putting a big engine in your car but only having first gear. Emile shared with me that the nice kort on his stern thruster is off a diving scooter. I researched those briefly and indeed they're in the ballpark of trolling motor prop diameters, and some appear to be true korts. Since kort nozzles are hard to make, ID'ing one that's a good match would be really useful. While looking at scooters, I noticed some have variable pitch props. By variable I mean adjustable with tools, not adjustable underway. That could prove a big performance booster for our application. In summary, I'd encourage a focus on the prop and nozzle, as I've found the standard seals and reverse to be perfectly satisfactory. My trolling motors leaked for the first time in 2012, after 12 years of use. I've left the oil in them for years at a time. When I finally serviced them last year, there were cheap rebuild kits readily available. Do you need the measurements of the inside bits too? Best, Alec > On Oct 27, 2013, at 8:29 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > > All Psubber Alert. > > A handful of members in conversation off list are coming to the conclusion that perhaps a best solution to the thruster issues discussed, is to improve on what has been demonstrated to already be viable. That is Minn Kotas as demonstrated by Snoopy, Idabel, et al. Parts are readily available and inexpensive. Case in point here,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaQuickRef.htm > > Hank has graciously offered his efforts in modifying several he already has on hand, and I am willing to put in many hours of CAD work to come up with working drawings, with an eye on this armature in particular,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaArmatureAssy92-100-216.htm > > The goal would be to add a mag coupling, Kort nozzle, and true reversibility to a package that is compact, (4" dia) and field serviceable / replaceable. The end product result would be open source to the PSUB community. > > Immediate problem that needs a solution. > > I need a lot of information and detail in order to proceed. Particularly what I need is dimensioned section drawings of appropriately sized models. Unfortunately, Minn Kota does not make this information readily available as demonstrated here,... http://www.minnkotamotors.com/service/ascs.aspx > > We need help accessing this information otherwise the effort is hobbled from the start. If anyone can help in this regard it would help tremendously. > > Joe > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Oct 27 15:07:59 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 12:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: References: <1382876973.64200.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382900879.63564.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I am wondering whether it is a good idea to change the prop size on the Minn Kotta. Or whether it would be good to get advice from Minn kotta first. After reading the issues about sub sea motors & overheating I am a bit wary of increasing the load, amps & heat in the motor by increasing the prop size. With regard to Kort nozzles.... I found a design on the internet, then tracked down a bucket of suitable size & slope, fiber glassed around a portion of it, then built up the thickness?of the leading edge. Alan ________________________________ From: Private To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:29 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hi Joe, Thanks for doing this. I have a Minnkota 101 here that I can measure for you, but I also have some suggestions for your consideration. Oil or air compensation are both easy and trouble free, so I really don't see much value-add in the magnetic coupling. Or in a hard case. Ditto reverse, my trolling motor thrusters with 13 years on them have yet to wear out the reverse washer, and it's not like I don't use reverse. Where I do see real room for improvement is with props and nozzles. The stock props are very short pitched, so if you put several 101s on a small sub for main propulsion, I suspect you would not get the cruising speed that their combined horse power would otherwise achieve. In other words, it would be like putting a big engine in your car but only having first gear. Emile shared with me that the nice kort on his stern thruster is off a diving scooter. I researched those briefly and indeed they're in the ballpark of trolling motor prop diameters, and some appear to be true korts. Since kort nozzles are hard to make, ID'ing one that's a good match would be really useful. While looking at scooters, I noticed some have variable pitch props. By variable I mean adjustable with tools, not adjustable underway. That could prove a big performance booster for our application. In summary, I'd encourage a focus on the prop and nozzle, as I've found the standard seals and reverse to be perfectly satisfactory. My trolling motors leaked for the first time in 2012, after 12 years of use. I've left the oil in them for years at a time. When I finally serviced them last year, there were cheap rebuild kits readily available.? Do you need the measurements of the inside bits too?? Best, Alec On Oct 27, 2013, at 8:29 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: All Psubber Alert. > >A handful of members in conversation off list are coming to the conclusion that perhaps a best solution to the thruster issues discussed, is to improve on what has been demonstrated to already be viable. That is Minn Kotas as demonstrated by Snoopy, Idabel, et al. Parts are readily available and inexpensive. Case in point here,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaQuickRef.htm > >Hank has graciously offered his efforts in modifying several he already has on hand, and I am willing to put in many hours of CAD work to come up with working drawings, with an eye on this armature in particular,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaArmatureAssy92-100-216.htm > >The goal would be to add a mag coupling, Kort nozzle, and true reversibility to a package that is compact, (4" dia) and field serviceable / replaceable. The end product result would be open source to the PSUB community. > >Immediate problem that needs a solution. > >I need a lot of information and detail in order to proceed. Particularly what I need is dimensioned section drawings of appropriately sized models. Unfortunately, Minn Kota does not make this information readily available as demonstrated here,... http://www.minnkotamotors.com/service/ascs.aspx > >We need help accessing this information otherwise the effort is hobbled from the start. If anyone can help in this regard it would help tremendously. > >Joe > > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Oct 27 15:19:56 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 15:19:56 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: References: <1382876973.64200.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alec, I'm out running errands and will respond but briefly, what RPM on that stock 101? Joe Sent from my overpriced iPhone On Oct 27, 2013, at 2:29 PM, Private wrote: > Hi Joe, > > Thanks for doing this. I have a Minnkota 101 here that I can measure for you, but I also have some suggestions for your consideration. > > Oil or air compensation are both easy and trouble free, so I really don't see much value-add in the magnetic coupling. Or in a hard case. Ditto reverse, my trolling motor thrusters with 13 years on them have yet to wear out the reverse washer, and it's not like I don't use reverse. > > Where I do see real room for improvement is with props and nozzles. The stock props are very short pitched, so if you put several 101s on a small sub for main propulsion, I suspect you would not get the cruising speed that their combined horse power would otherwise achieve. In other words, it would be like putting a big engine in your car but only having first gear. > > Emile shared with me that the nice kort on his stern thruster is off a diving scooter. I researched those briefly and indeed they're in the ballpark of trolling motor prop diameters, and some appear to be true korts. Since kort nozzles are hard to make, ID'ing one that's a good match would be really useful. While looking at scooters, I noticed some have variable pitch props. By variable I mean adjustable with tools, not adjustable underway. That could prove a big performance booster for our application. > > In summary, I'd encourage a focus on the prop and nozzle, as I've found the standard seals and reverse to be perfectly satisfactory. My trolling motors leaked for the first time in 2012, after 12 years of use. I've left the oil in them for years at a time. When I finally serviced them last year, there were cheap rebuild kits readily available. > > Do you need the measurements of the inside bits too? > > > Best, > > Alec > > > On Oct 27, 2013, at 8:29 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >> >> All Psubber Alert. >> >> A handful of members in conversation off list are coming to the conclusion that perhaps a best solution to the thruster issues discussed, is to improve on what has been demonstrated to already be viable. That is Minn Kotas as demonstrated by Snoopy, Idabel, et al. Parts are readily available and inexpensive. Case in point here,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaQuickRef.htm >> >> Hank has graciously offered his efforts in modifying several he already has on hand, and I am willing to put in many hours of CAD work to come up with working drawings, with an eye on this armature in particular,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaArmatureAssy92-100-216.htm >> >> The goal would be to add a mag coupling, Kort nozzle, and true reversibility to a package that is compact, (4" dia) and field serviceable / replaceable. The end product result would be open source to the PSUB community. >> >> Immediate problem that needs a solution. >> >> I need a lot of information and detail in order to proceed. Particularly what I need is dimensioned section drawings of appropriately sized models. Unfortunately, Minn Kota does not make this information readily available as demonstrated here,... http://www.minnkotamotors.com/service/ascs.aspx >> >> We need help accessing this information otherwise the effort is hobbled from the start. If anyone can help in this regard it would help tremendously. >> >> Joe >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Sun Oct 27 15:20:55 2013 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Private) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 15:20:55 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382900879.63564.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382876973.64200.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382900879.63564.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <19863F92-66E4-431E-BBE2-04F8D00DEB10@gmail.com> It would be fine as long as the total work being done is held constant. In other words swept area times pitch for the custom prop equals swept area times pitch for the stock one. That's assuming equal rpm. Once you put on the new prop, verify by measuring the amps drawn. If it isn't drawing more amps it won't be heating up more than with the standard prop. Best, Alec > On Oct 27, 2013, at 3:07 PM, Alan James wrote: > > I am wondering whether it is a good idea to change the prop > size on the Minn Kotta. Or whether it would be good to get advice > from Minn kotta first. After reading the issues about sub sea motors & overheating > I am a bit wary of increasing the load, amps & heat in the motor by increasing > the prop size. > With regard to Kort nozzles.... I found a design on the internet, then tracked down a bucket of suitable size & slope, fiber glassed around a portion of it, then built up the thickness of the leading edge. > Alan > > > > > From: Private > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:29 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > Hi Joe, > > Thanks for doing this. I have a Minnkota 101 here that I can measure for you, but I also have some suggestions for your consideration. > > Oil or air compensation are both easy and trouble free, so I really don't see much value-add in the magnetic coupling. Or in a hard case. Ditto reverse, my trolling motor thrusters with 13 years on them have yet to wear out the reverse washer, and it's not like I don't use reverse. > > Where I do see real room for improvement is with props and nozzles. The stock props are very short pitched, so if you put several 101s on a small sub for main propulsion, I suspect you would not get the cruising speed that their combined horse power would otherwise achieve. In other words, it would be like putting a big engine in your car but only having first gear. > > Emile shared with me that the nice kort on his stern thruster is off a diving scooter. I researched those briefly and indeed they're in the ballpark of trolling motor prop diameters, and some appear to be true korts. Since kort nozzles are hard to make, ID'ing one that's a good match would be really useful. While looking at scooters, I noticed some have variable pitch props. By variable I mean adjustable with tools, not adjustable underway. That could prove a big performance booster for our application. > > In summary, I'd encourage a focus on the prop and nozzle, as I've found the standard seals and reverse to be perfectly satisfactory. My trolling motors leaked for the first time in 2012, after 12 years of use. I've left the oil in them for years at a time. When I finally serviced them last year, there were cheap rebuild kits readily available. > > Do you need the measurements of the inside bits too? > > > Best, > > Alec > > >> On Oct 27, 2013, at 8:29 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> >> >> All Psubber Alert. >> >> A handful of members in conversation off list are coming to the conclusion that perhaps a best solution to the thruster issues discussed, is to improve on what has been demonstrated to already be viable. That is Minn Kotas as demonstrated by Snoopy, Idabel, et al. Parts are readily available and inexpensive. Case in point here,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaQuickRef.htm >> >> Hank has graciously offered his efforts in modifying several he already has on hand, and I am willing to put in many hours of CAD work to come up with working drawings, with an eye on this armature in particular,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaArmatureAssy92-100-216.htm >> >> The goal would be to add a mag coupling, Kort nozzle, and true reversibility to a package that is compact, (4" dia) and field serviceable / replaceable. The end product result would be open source to the PSUB community. >> >> Immediate problem that needs a solution. >> >> I need a lot of information and detail in order to proceed. Particularly what I need is dimensioned section drawings of appropriately sized models. Unfortunately, Minn Kota does not make this information readily available as demonstrated here,... http://www.minnkotamotors.com/service/ascs.aspx >> >> We need help accessing this information otherwise the effort is hobbled from the start. If anyone can help in this regard it would help tremendously. >> >> Joe >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Sun Oct 27 15:53:08 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 12:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <19863F92-66E4-431E-BBE2-04F8D00DEB10@gmail.com> References: <1382876973.64200.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382900879.63564.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <19863F92-66E4-431E-BBE2-04F8D00DEB10@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1382903588.67968.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Thanks Alec. Forget Minn kottas, this Dutch man is really on to something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZJTGqmtzBs Alan ________________________________ From: Private To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request It would be fine as long as the total work being done is held constant. In other words swept area times pitch for the custom prop equals swept area times pitch for the stock one. That's assuming equal rpm.? Once you put on the new prop, verify by measuring the amps drawn. If it isn't drawing more amps it won't be heating up more than with the standard prop. Best, Alec On Oct 27, 2013, at 3:07 PM, Alan James wrote: I am wondering whether it is a good idea to change the prop >size on the Minn Kotta. Or whether it would be good to get advice >from Minn kotta first. After reading the issues about sub sea motors & overheating >I am a bit wary of increasing the load, amps & heat in the motor by increasing >the prop size. >With regard to Kort nozzles.... I found a design on the internet, then tracked down a bucket of suitable size & slope, fiber glassed around a portion of it, then built up the thickness?of the leading edge. >Alan > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > From: Private >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:29 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > > >Hi Joe, > > >Thanks for doing this. I have a Minnkota 101 here that I can measure for you, but I also have some suggestions for your consideration. > >Oil or air compensation are both easy and trouble free, so I really don't see much value-add in the magnetic coupling. Or in a hard case. Ditto reverse, my trolling motor thrusters with 13 years on them have yet to wear out the reverse washer, and it's not like I don't use reverse. > > >Where I do see real room for improvement is with props and nozzles. The stock props are very short pitched, so if you put several 101s on a small sub for main propulsion, I suspect you would not get the cruising speed that their combined horse power would otherwise achieve. In other words, it would be like putting a big engine in your car but only having first gear. > > >Emile shared with me that the nice kort on his stern thruster is off a diving scooter. I researched those briefly and indeed they're in the ballpark of trolling motor prop diameters, and some appear to be true korts. Since kort nozzles are hard to make, ID'ing one that's a good match would be really useful. While looking at scooters, I noticed some have variable pitch props. By variable I mean adjustable with tools, not adjustable underway. That could prove a big performance booster for our application. > > >In summary, I'd encourage a focus on the prop and nozzle, as I've found the standard seals and reverse to be perfectly satisfactory. My trolling motors leaked for the first time in 2012, after 12 years of use. I've left the oil in them for years at a time. When I finally serviced them last year, there were cheap rebuild kits readily available.? > > >Do you need the measurements of the inside bits too?? > > > > >Best, > > >Alec > > > > >On Oct 27, 2013, at 8:29 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > >All Psubber Alert. >> >>A handful of members in conversation off list are coming to the conclusion that perhaps a best solution to the thruster issues discussed, is to improve on what has been demonstrated to already be viable. That is Minn Kotas as demonstrated by Snoopy, Idabel, et al. Parts are readily available and inexpensive. Case in point here,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaQuickRef.htm >> >>Hank has graciously offered his efforts in modifying several he already has on hand, and I am willing to put in many hours of CAD work to come up with working drawings, with an eye on this armature in particular,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaArmatureAssy92-100-216.htm >> >>The goal would be to add a mag coupling, Kort nozzle, and true reversibility to a package that is compact, (4" dia) and field serviceable / replaceable. The end product result would be open source to the PSUB community. >> >>Immediate problem that needs a solution. >> >>I need a lot of information and detail in order to proceed. Particularly what I need is dimensioned section drawings of appropriately sized models. Unfortunately, Minn Kota does not make this information readily available as demonstrated here,... http://www.minnkotamotors.com/service/ascs.aspx >> >>We need help accessing this information otherwise the effort is hobbled from the start. If anyone can help in this regard it would help tremendously. >> >>Joe >> >> >>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Sun Oct 27 16:17:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 27 Oct 2013 20:17 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382903588.67968.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382876973.64200.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382900879.63564.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <19863F92-66E4-431E-BBE2-04F8D00DEB10@gmail.com> <1382903588.67968.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1VaWnc-4cql8K0@fwd01.t-online.de> The day after.. "Alan James" schrieb: Thanks Alec. Forget Minn kottas, this Dutch man is really on to something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZJTGqmtzBs Alan From: Private To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request It would be fine as long as the total work being done is held constant. In other words swept area times pitch for the custom prop equals swept area times pitch for the stock one. That's assuming equal rpm. Once you put on the new prop, verify by measuring the amps drawn. If it isn't drawing more amps it won't be heating up more than with the standard prop. Best, Alec On Oct 27, 2013, at 3:07 PM, Alan James wrote: I am wondering whether it is a good idea to change the prop size on the Minn Kotta. Or whether it would be good to get advice from Minn kotta first. After reading the issues about sub sea motors & overheating I am a bit wary of increasing the load, amps & heat in the motor by increasing the prop size. With regard to Kort nozzles.... I found a design on the internet, then tracked down a bucket of suitable size & slope, fiber glassed around a portion of it, then built up the thickness of the leading edge. Alan From: Private To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:29 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hi Joe, Thanks for doing this. I have a Minnkota 101 here that I can measure for you, but I also have some suggestions for your consideration. Oil or air compensation are both easy and trouble free, so I really don't see much value-add in the magnetic coupling. Or in a hard case. Ditto reverse, my trolling motor thrusters with 13 years on them have yet to wear out the reverse washer, and it's not like I don't use reverse. Where I do see real room for improvement is with props and nozzles. The stock props are very short pitched, so if you put several 101s on a small sub for main propulsion, I suspect you would not get the cruising speed that their combined horse power would otherwise achieve. In other words, it would be like putting a big engine in your car but only having first gear. Emile shared with me that the nice kort on his stern thruster is off a diving scooter. I researched those briefly and indeed they're in the ballpark of trolling motor prop diameters, and some appear to be true korts. Since kort nozzles are hard to make, ID'ing one that's a good match would be really useful. While looking at scooters, I noticed some have variable pitch props. By variable I mean adjustable with tools, not adjustable underway. That could prove a big performance booster for our application. In summary, I'd encourage a focus on the prop and nozzle, as I've found the standard seals and reverse to be perfectly satisfactory. My trolling motors leaked for the first time in 2012, after 12 years of use. I've left the oil in them for years at a time. When I finally serviced them last year, there were cheap rebuild kits readily available. Do you need the measurements of the inside bits too? Best, Alec On Oct 27, 2013, at 8:29 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: All Psubber Alert. A handful of members in conversation off list are coming to the conclusion that perhaps a best solution to the thruster issues discussed, is to improve on what has been demonstrated to already be viable. That is Minn Kotas as demonstrated by Snoopy, Idabel, et al. Parts are readily available and inexpensive. Case in point here,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaQuickRef.htm Hank has graciously offered his efforts in modifying several he already has on hand, and I am willing to put in many hours of CAD work to come up with working drawings, with an eye on this armature in particular,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaArmatureAssy92-100-216.htm The goal would be to add a mag coupling, Kort nozzle, and true reversibility to a package that is compact, (4" dia) and field serviceable / replaceable. The end product result would be open source to the PSUB community. Immediate problem that needs a solution. I need a lot of information and detail in order to proceed. Particularly what I need is dimensioned section drawings of appropriately sized models. Unfortunately, Minn Kota does not make this information readily available as demonstrated here,... http://www.minnkotamotors.com/service/ascs.aspx We need help accessing this information otherwise the effort is hobbled from the start. If anyone can help in this regard it would help tremendously. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emile at airesearch.nl Sun Oct 27 16:33:12 2013 From: emile at airesearch.nl (Emile van Essen) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 21:33:12 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382903588.67968.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The Dutch are crazy ;-) My sub was intensive used ;I spend 50 Hours UW the last 3 months. The Torque-jet hubless thrusters proved to be perfect, no compensating, no problem. The Haswing Protuar at the stern worked also fine and very efficient. The 2.0 HP brushless motor has a big slow turning prop . The gearbox (15:1 !!) is noisy and it can only be air compensated. Regards, Emile The Netherlands.. _____ Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alan James Verzonden: zondag 27 oktober 2013 20:53 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Thanks Alec. Forget Minn kottas, this Dutch man is really on to something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZJTGqmtzBs Alan _____ From: Private To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request It would be fine as long as the total work being done is held constant. In other words swept area times pitch for the custom prop equals swept area times pitch for the stock one. That's assuming equal rpm. Once you put on the new prop, verify by measuring the amps drawn. If it isn't drawing more amps it won't be heating up more than with the standard prop. Best, Alec On Oct 27, 2013, at 3:07 PM, Alan James wrote: I am wondering whether it is a good idea to change the prop size on the Minn Kotta. Or whether it would be good to get advice from Minn kotta first. After reading the issues about sub sea motors & overheating I am a bit wary of increasing the load, amps & heat in the motor by increasing the prop size. With regard to Kort nozzles.... I found a design on the internet, then tracked down a bucket of suitable size & slope, fiber glassed around a portion of it, then built up the thickness of the leading edge. Alan _____ From: Private To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:29 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hi Joe, Thanks for doing this. I have a Minnkota 101 here that I can measure for you, but I also have some suggestions for your consideration. Oil or air compensation are both easy and trouble free, so I really don't see much value-add in the magnetic coupling. Or in a hard case. Ditto reverse, my trolling motor thrusters with 13 years on them have yet to wear out the reverse washer, and it's not like I don't use reverse. Where I do see real room for improvement is with props and nozzles. The stock props are very short pitched, so if you put several 101s on a small sub for main propulsion, I suspect you would not get the cruising speed that their combined horse power would otherwise achieve. In other words, it would be like putting a big engine in your car but only having first gear. Emile shared with me that the nice kort on his stern thruster is off a diving scooter. I researched those briefly and indeed they're in the ballpark of trolling motor prop diameters, and some appear to be true korts. Since kort nozzles are hard to make, ID'ing one that's a good match would be really useful. While looking at scooters, I noticed some have variable pitch props. By variable I mean adjustable with tools, not adjustable underway. That could prove a big performance booster for our application. In summary, I'd encourage a focus on the prop and nozzle, as I've found the standard seals and reverse to be perfectly satisfactory. My trolling motors leaked for the first time in 2012, after 12 years of use. I've left the oil in them for years at a time. When I finally serviced them last year, there were cheap rebuild kits readily available. Do you need the measurements of the inside bits too? Best, Alec On Oct 27, 2013, at 8:29 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: All Psubber Alert. A handful of members in conversation off list are coming to the conclusion that perhaps a best solution to the thruster issues discussed, is to improve on what has been demonstrated to already be viable. That is Minn Kotas as demonstrated by Snoopy, Idabel, et al. Parts are readily available and inexpensive. Case in point here,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaQuickRef.htm Hank has graciously offered his efforts in modifying several he already has on hand, and I am willing to put in many hours of CAD work to come up with working drawings, with an eye on this armature in particular,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaArmatureAssy92-100-216.htm The goal would be to add a mag coupling, Kort nozzle, and true reversibility to a package that is compact, (4" dia) and field serviceable / replaceable. The end product result would be open source to the PSUB community. Immediate problem that needs a solution. I need a lot of information and detail in order to proceed. Particularly what I need is dimensioned section drawings of appropriately sized models. Unfortunately, Minn Kota does not make this information readily available as demonstrated here,... http://www.minnkotamotors.com/service/ascs.aspx We need help accessing this information otherwise the effort is hobbled from the start. If anyone can help in this regard it would help tremendously. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Sun Oct 27 16:42:14 2013 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Private) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 16:42:14 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382903588.67968.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382876973.64200.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382900879.63564.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <19863F92-66E4-431E-BBE2-04F8D00DEB10@gmail.com> <1382903588.67968.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Loved it. Have you ever seen the drill powered mini-bikes? > On Oct 27, 2013, at 3:53 PM, Alan James wrote: > > Thanks Alec. > Forget Minn kottas, this Dutch man is really on to something. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZJTGqmtzBs > Alan > > From: Private > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 8:20 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > It would be fine as long as the total work being done is held constant. In other words swept area times pitch for the custom prop equals swept area times pitch for the stock one. That's assuming equal rpm. > > Once you put on the new prop, verify by measuring the amps drawn. If it isn't drawing more amps it won't be heating up more than with the standard prop. > > > Best, > > Alec > > > >> On Oct 27, 2013, at 3:07 PM, Alan James wrote: >> >> I am wondering whether it is a good idea to change the prop >> size on the Minn Kotta. Or whether it would be good to get advice >> from Minn kotta first. After reading the issues about sub sea motors & overheating >> I am a bit wary of increasing the load, amps & heat in the motor by increasing >> the prop size. >> With regard to Kort nozzles.... I found a design on the internet, then tracked down a bucket of suitable size & slope, fiber glassed around a portion of it, then built up the thickness of the leading edge. >> Alan >> >> >> >> >> From: Private >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:29 AM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> >> Hi Joe, >> >> Thanks for doing this. I have a Minnkota 101 here that I can measure for you, but I also have some suggestions for your consideration. >> >> Oil or air compensation are both easy and trouble free, so I really don't see much value-add in the magnetic coupling. Or in a hard case. Ditto reverse, my trolling motor thrusters with 13 years on them have yet to wear out the reverse washer, and it's not like I don't use reverse. >> >> Where I do see real room for improvement is with props and nozzles. The stock props are very short pitched, so if you put several 101s on a small sub for main propulsion, I suspect you would not get the cruising speed that their combined horse power would otherwise achieve. In other words, it would be like putting a big engine in your car but only having first gear. >> >> Emile shared with me that the nice kort on his stern thruster is off a diving scooter. I researched those briefly and indeed they're in the ballpark of trolling motor prop diameters, and some appear to be true korts. Since kort nozzles are hard to make, ID'ing one that's a good match would be really useful. While looking at scooters, I noticed some have variable pitch props. By variable I mean adjustable with tools, not adjustable underway. That could prove a big performance booster for our application. >> >> In summary, I'd encourage a focus on the prop and nozzle, as I've found the standard seals and reverse to be perfectly satisfactory. My trolling motors leaked for the first time in 2012, after 12 years of use. I've left the oil in them for years at a time. When I finally serviced them last year, there were cheap rebuild kits readily available. >> >> Do you need the measurements of the inside bits too? >> >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >>> On Oct 27, 2013, at 8:29 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: >>> >>> >>> All Psubber Alert. >>> >>> A handful of members in conversation off list are coming to the conclusion that perhaps a best solution to the thruster issues discussed, is to improve on what has been demonstrated to already be viable. That is Minn Kotas as demonstrated by Snoopy, Idabel, et al. Parts are readily available and inexpensive. Case in point here,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaQuickRef.htm >>> >>> Hank has graciously offered his efforts in modifying several he already has on hand, and I am willing to put in many hours of CAD work to come up with working drawings, with an eye on this armature in particular,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaArmatureAssy92-100-216.htm >>> >>> The goal would be to add a mag coupling, Kort nozzle, and true reversibility to a package that is compact, (4" dia) and field serviceable / replaceable. The end product result would be open source to the PSUB community. >>> >>> Immediate problem that needs a solution. >>> >>> I need a lot of information and detail in order to proceed. Particularly what I need is dimensioned section drawings of appropriately sized models. Unfortunately, Minn Kota does not make this information readily available as demonstrated here,... http://www.minnkotamotors.com/service/ascs.aspx >>> >>> We need help accessing this information otherwise the effort is hobbled from the start. If anyone can help in this regard it would help tremendously. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> >>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Sun Oct 27 16:48:06 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 16:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382900879.63564.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382876973.64200.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382900879.63564.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0A16CF9141607-17EC-1435C@webmail-m249.sysops.aol.com> Not to throw any cold water on this parade, I should remind you that we went through this whole thing a couple of years ago. I spoke with some very nice folks (engineers) at Minn-Kota who were pretty clear about the design parameters. They don't use kort nozzles because they don't need them. The SP101 has the guts to shove a ton and a half of fishing boat against currents or breeze, and do it all day. The bearings are designed for the load they are under at full power with plenty left over for snags. The unit itself in their view is about as good as it gets. Taking it further would require a redesign for bearing lands and webs, the bearings themselves, and the rotating shaft to apply all that new torque. They looked into korts originally, but the penalties are too high for the projected results. Plus, the 101 as it stands simply doesn't need it according to M-K. From what I've seen, they are right. You want more in that design style then you have to do what they did with the 4 hp outboard--step up to bigger windings, magnets, bearings, shafts, etc. Dollars to pounds of thrust? It's hard to beat for light duty, which is what we do. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Oct 27, 2013 3:08 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I am wondering whether it is a good idea to change the prop size on the Minn Kotta. Or whether it would be good to get advice from Minn kotta first. After reading the issues about sub sea motors & overheating I am a bit wary of increasing the load, amps & heat in the motor by increasing the prop size. With regard to Kort nozzles.... I found a design on the internet, then tracked down a bucket of suitable size & slope, fiber glassed around a portion of it, then built up the thickness of the leading edge. Alan From: Private To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:29 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hi Joe, Thanks for doing this. I have a Minnkota 101 here that I can measure for you, but I also have some suggestions for your consideration. Oil or air compensation are both easy and trouble free, so I really don't see much value-add in the magnetic coupling. Or in a hard case. Ditto reverse, my trolling motor thrusters with 13 years on them have yet to wear out the reverse washer, and it's not like I don't use reverse. Where I do see real room for improvement is with props and nozzles. The stock props are very short pitched, so if you put several 101s on a small sub for main propulsion, I suspect you would not get the cruising speed that their combined horse power would otherwise achieve. In other words, it would be like putting a big engine in your car but only having first gear. Emile shared with me that the nice kort on his stern thruster is off a diving scooter. I researched those briefly and indeed they're in the ballpark of trolling motor prop diameters, and some appear to be true korts. Since kort nozzles are hard to make, ID'ing one that's a good match would be really useful. While looking at scooters, I noticed some have variable pitch props. By variable I mean adjustable with tools, not adjustable underway. That could prove a big performance booster for our application. In summary, I'd encourage a focus on the prop and nozzle, as I've found the standard seals and reverse to be perfectly satisfactory. My trolling motors leaked for the first time in 2012, after 12 years of use. I've left the oil in them for years at a time. When I finally serviced them last year, there were cheap rebuild kits readily available. Do you need the measurements of the inside bits too? Best, Alec On Oct 27, 2013, at 8:29 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: All Psubber Alert. A handful of members in conversation off list are coming to the conclusion that perhaps a best solution to the thruster issues discussed, is to improve on what has been demonstrated to already be viable. That is Minn Kotas as demonstrated by Snoopy, Idabel, et al. Parts are readily available and inexpensive. Case in point here,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaQuickRef.htm Hank has graciously offered his efforts in modifying several he already has on hand, and I am willing to put in many hours of CAD work to come up with working drawings, with an eye on this armature in particular,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaArmatureAssy92-100-216.htm The goal would be to add a mag coupling, Kort nozzle, and true reversibility to a package that is compact, (4" dia) and field serviceable / replaceable. The end product result would be open source to the PSUB community. Immediate problem that needs a solution. I need a lot of information and detail in order to proceed. Particularly what I need is dimensioned section drawings of appropriately sized models. Unfortunately, Minn Kota does not make this information readily available as demonstrated here,... http://www.minnkotamotors.com/service/ascs.aspx We need help accessing this information otherwise the effort is hobbled from the start. If anyone can help in this regard it would help tremendously. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Oct 27 18:20:30 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 15:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: References: <1382876973.64200.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382912430.33655.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Alec, ? I've gone round and round for the past two weeks in depth on the issues of propulsion and have come full circle back to the trolling motors. I was on hiatus for the discussion mentioned by Vance ref contact with the manufacturer as I would have remembered that. ? So, I'm with you on the prop and nozzle. While the 101's may indeed have plenty of guts for the job as is, the Kort data shows a 30% improvement in Bollard thrust at low speeds for any given prop diameter. That and the added benefit of protecting the prop, are significant enough reasons to forge ahead. This is actually good news, less work by not mucking around with the guts of the motor. ? You guys are the builders with recent hands on, I'm behind in the trial and error business because I cant get started tinkering yet. But as you well know, I developed CAD capability for this purpose only, so time to put it to real use. Where I need help is deciding on materials and manufacturing processes. I can give you guys the cutting files needed to whittle a Kort out of a block of solid titanium, but that would not be practical. That's my limitation and where hands on experience counts. ? Now these nozzles are reverse foils with coordinates?in percent of length. I can generate a NACA 4415 on my airfoil generator and transfer that to the model.??I can give us accurate 3d models and eventually CNC cutting files for whatever the group wants on these Minn Kotas, nozzles and attachment hardware. I can do?both Nozzles, Marin 19A, and or?37, with the latter being optimized bi-directionally. ? Finding something off the shelf would be ideal, but I suspect given the nature of the business and the quote I recieved it would likely prove problematic. ? You need a new square tip prop to optimize the duct. I've had custom props made for my boat in the past, so that should not prove insurmountable. I should be able to do the prop as well. ? Can we post pictures on this forum?, I forget. It would be helpful to point things out. If I could post pictures of the?various exploded diagrams, I can point to where I want dimensions with red arrows.?Eventually, I'll start a web-page. ? So for now, I need some detail on the shaft and prop as is., what have you done with that washer and where it is in the drive, as well as any other modifications. ? I think this is a decent group effort?project, and one that can pay dividends in the end. ? Joe ________________________________ From: Private To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2013 2:29 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hi Joe, Thanks for doing this. I have a Minnkota 101 here that I can measure for you, but I also have some suggestions for your consideration. Oil or air compensation are both easy and trouble free, so I really don't see much value-add in the magnetic coupling. Or in a hard case. Ditto reverse, my trolling motor thrusters with 13 years on them have yet to wear out the reverse washer, and it's not like I don't use reverse. Where I do see real room for improvement is with props and nozzles. The stock props are very short pitched, so if you put several 101s on a small sub for main propulsion, I suspect you would not get the cruising speed that their combined horse power would otherwise achieve. In other words, it would be like putting a big engine in your car but only having first gear. Emile shared with me that the nice kort on his stern thruster is off a diving scooter. I researched those briefly and indeed they're in the ballpark of trolling motor prop diameters, and some appear to be true korts. Since kort nozzles are hard to make, ID'ing one that's a good match would be really useful. While looking at scooters, I noticed some have variable pitch props. By variable I mean adjustable with tools, not adjustable underway. That could prove a big performance booster for our application. In summary, I'd encourage a focus on the prop and nozzle, as I've found the standard seals and reverse to be perfectly satisfactory. My trolling motors leaked for the first time in 2012, after 12 years of use. I've left the oil in them for years at a time. When I finally serviced them last year, there were cheap rebuild kits readily available.? Do you need the measurements of the inside bits too?? Best, Alec On Oct 27, 2013, at 8:29 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: All Psubber Alert. > >A handful of members in conversation off list are coming to the conclusion that perhaps a best solution to the thruster issues discussed, is to improve on what has been demonstrated to already be viable. That is Minn Kotas as demonstrated by Snoopy, Idabel, et al. Parts are readily available and inexpensive. Case in point here,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaQuickRef.htm > >Hank has graciously offered his efforts in modifying several he already has on hand, and I am willing to put in many hours of CAD work to come up with working drawings, with an eye on this armature in particular,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaArmatureAssy92-100-216.htm > >The goal would be to add a mag coupling, Kort nozzle, and true reversibility to a package that is compact, (4" dia) and field serviceable / replaceable. The end product result would be open source to the PSUB community. > >Immediate problem that needs a solution. > >I need a lot of information and detail in order to proceed. Particularly what I need is dimensioned section drawings of appropriately sized models. Unfortunately, Minn Kota does not make this information readily available as demonstrated here,... http://www.minnkotamotors.com/service/ascs.aspx > >We need help accessing this information otherwise the effort is hobbled from the start. If anyone can help in this regard it would help tremendously. > >Joe > > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Sun Oct 27 20:33:12 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 20:33:12 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382912430.33655.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382876973.64200.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382912430.33655.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <526DB0C8.4040604@psubs.org> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in the operational experience given that the motors are operating very slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 liter engine under the hood does it? Like Vance, I don't want to rain on the parade and I do "get it" that the challenge of coming up with a "home-built" alternative can be rewarding. I just think that production cost will be the determining factor on practical use. Like going from T-Rex back to minn-kota, I can't help but wonder if the ultimate conclusion will turn out to be that the stock minn-kota's are good enough for 99.99% of our applications. I can think of many things that your CAD experience could offer to the group if you are interested in providing some designs. For example the K350 plan modifications that have been talked about by a few people. We could really use help in that area. Jon On 10/27/2013 6:20 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Alec, > I've gone round and round for the past two weeks in depth on the > issues of propulsion and have come full circle back to the trolling > motors. I was on hiatus for the discussion mentioned by Vance ref > contact with the manufacturer as I would have remembered that. > So, I'm with you on the prop and nozzle. While the 101's may indeed > have plenty of guts for the job as is, the Kort data shows a 30% > improvement in Bollard thrust at low speeds for any given prop > diameter. That and the added benefit of protecting the prop, are > significant enough reasons to forge ahead. This is actually good news, > less work by not mucking around with the guts of the motor. > You guys are the builders with recent hands on, I'm behind in the > trial and error business because I cant get started tinkering yet. But > as you well know, I developed CAD capability for this purpose only, so > time to put it to real use. Where I need help is deciding on materials > and manufacturing processes. I can give you guys the cutting files > needed to whittle a Kort out of a block of solid titanium, but that > would not be practical. That's my limitation and where hands on > experience counts. > Now these nozzles are reverse foils with coordinates in percent of > length. I can generate a NACA 4415 on my airfoil generator and > transfer that to the model. I can give us accurate 3d models and > eventually CNC cutting files for whatever the group wants on these > Minn Kotas, nozzles and attachment hardware. I can do both Nozzles, > Marin 19A, and or 37, with the latter being optimized bi-directionally. > Finding something off the shelf would be ideal, but I suspect given > the nature of the business and the quote I recieved it would likely > prove problematic. > You need a new square tip prop to optimize the duct. I've had custom > props made for my boat in the past, so that should not prove > insurmountable. I should be able to do the prop as well. > Can we post pictures on this forum?, I forget. It would be helpful to > point things out. If I could post pictures of the various exploded > diagrams, I can point to where I want dimensions with red > arrows. Eventually, I'll start a web-page. > So for now, I need some detail on the shaft and prop as is., what have > you done with that washer and where it is in the drive, as well as any > other modifications. > I think this is a decent group effort project, and one that can pay > dividends in the end. > Joe > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Sun Oct 27 21:00:36 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 21:00:36 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold "Web" Maynard In-Reply-To: <526C5855.5090905@psubs.org> References: <526C5855.5090905@psubs.org> Message-ID: <526DB734.3090108@psubs.org> Services for Harold Maynard will be held Nov 9 at Caywood Funeral Home in Elmira, NY. On 10/26/2013 8:03 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > My fellow psubbers, > > I have been advised that Harold "Web" Maynard passed away October 21, > 2013 after ill-health for a number of years. Harold was a good friend > of Captain Kittredge and owner of a K-350 named "Lake Diver". Web was > an excellent speaker and could keep your attention for hours > describing his submarine diving experiences. For those of you > unfamiliar with Harold, a link to a photo of him at the 2003 > convention is included below. I have no information regarding funeral > arrangements but will forward them upon receipt. > > http://www.psubs.org/convention/2003/pics.cgi?pics/speakers/p2.jpg > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From vbra676539 at aol.com Sun Oct 27 21:11:29 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 21:11:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold "Web" Maynard In-Reply-To: <526DB734.3090108@psubs.org> References: <526C5855.5090905@psubs.org> <526DB734.3090108@psubs.org> Message-ID: <8D0A191C409426F-1784-1B807@Webmail-d113.sysops.aol.com> Web took things literally. George told him to test his K-350 to 500 feet for safety so Web hauled it to the Finger Lakes in NY where there was enough water. And took her in stages right on down to 500 feet. Kittredge was shocked. Web, not so much. He figured if he built it right it was going to do 500 anyway, so he might as well go along. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Oct 27, 2013 9:02 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold "Web" Maynard Services for Harold Maynard will be held Nov 9 at Caywood Funeral Home in Elmira, NY. On 10/26/2013 8:03 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > My fellow psubbers, > > I have been advised that Harold "Web" Maynard passed away October 21, > 2013 after ill-health for a number of years. Harold was a good friend > of Captain Kittredge and owner of a K-350 named "Lake Diver". Web was > an excellent speaker and could keep your attention for hours > describing his submarine diving experiences. For those of you > unfamiliar with Harold, a link to a photo of him at the 2003 > convention is included below. I have no information regarding funeral > arrangements but will forward them upon receipt. > > http://www.psubs.org/convention/2003/pics.cgi?pics/speakers/p2.jpg > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Oct 27 21:33:59 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 18:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <526DB0C8.4040604@psubs.org> References: <526DB0C8.4040604@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1382924039.99038.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Jon, The short answer is I dont know. But look at that Dutchman and his simplistic ingenuity. Thats what Im hoping for out of this group as far as materials and processes. Im ready to draw up whatever the result. Consider that there are intrepid builders of all sorts of things worldwide. Hovercrafters build large scale ducts for thier craft as a example. I'll take a look there tomorrow. ? How about half a kort??? A plug of some kind (construction grade?foam perhaps?)?to build up a FRP shell over then mate two halves?Revelle model style??? Can this shape be hot wired?? What to use as a guide? I have ideas and questions, but I need the shop wizards of the world to come up with the process. ? As for The other things, Im ready and willing. I like the thruster because with my family and work?time constraints, its not too much to chew on. I can commit to small projects for now, bigger later as time goes on. ? What would you like to see done apart from the thrusters? ? Joe ________________________________ From: Jon Wallace ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:33:12 AM What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC?? I think a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not reaching beyond a thousand.? When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in the operational experience given that the motors are operating very slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated).? The props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater.? True, a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the cost?? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 liter engine under the hood does it? Like Vance, I don't want to rain on the parade and I do "get it" that the challenge of coming up with a "home-built" alternative can be rewarding.? I just think that production cost will be the determining factor on practical use.? Like going from T-Rex back to minn-kota, I can't help but wonder if the ultimate conclusion will turn out to be that the stock minn-kota's are good enough for 99.99% of our applications. I can think of many things that your CAD experience could offer to the group if you are interested in providing some designs.? For example the K350 plan modifications that have been talked about by a few people.? We could really use help in that area.? Jon On 10/27/2013 6:20 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: Alec, >? >I've gone round and round for the past two weeks in depth on the issues of propulsion and have come full circle back to the trolling motors. I was on hiatus for the discussion mentioned by Vance ref contact with the manufacturer as I would have remembered that. >? >So, I'm with you on the prop and nozzle. While the 101's may indeed have plenty of guts for the job as is, the Kort data shows a 30% improvement in Bollard thrust at low speeds for any given prop diameter. That and the added benefit of protecting the prop, are significant enough reasons to forge ahead. This is actually good news, less work by not mucking around with the guts of the motor. >? >You guys are the builders with recent hands on, I'm behind in the trial and error business because I cant get started tinkering yet. But as you well know, I developed CAD capability for this purpose only, so time to put it to real use. Where I need help is deciding on materials and manufacturing processes. I can give you guys the cutting files needed to whittle a Kort out of a block of solid titanium, but that would not be practical. That's my limitation and where hands on experience counts. >? >Now these nozzles are reverse foils with coordinates?in percent of length. I can generate a NACA 4415 on my airfoil generator and transfer that to the model.??I can give us accurate 3d models and eventually CNC cutting files for whatever the group wants on these Minn Kotas, nozzles and attachment hardware. I can do?both Nozzles, Marin 19A, and or?37, with the latter being optimized bi-directionally. >? >Finding something off the shelf would be ideal, but I suspect given the nature of the business and the quote I recieved it would likely prove problematic. >? >You need a new square tip prop to optimize the duct. I've had custom props made for my boat in the past, so that should not prove insurmountable. I should be able to do the prop as well. >? >Can we post pictures on this forum?, I forget. It would be helpful to point things out. If I could post pictures of the?various exploded diagrams, I can point to where I want dimensions with red arrows.?Eventually, I'll start a web-page. >? >So for now, I need some detail on the shaft and prop as is., what have you done with that washer and where it is in the drive, as well as any other modifications. >? >I think this is a decent group effort?project, and one that can pay dividends in the end. >? >Joe > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Sun Oct 27 21:37:44 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 18:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold "Web" Maynard In-Reply-To: <8D0A191C409426F-1784-1B807@Webmail-d113.sysops.aol.com> References: <526C5855.5090905@psubs.org> <526DB734.3090108@psubs.org> <8D0A191C409426F-1784-1B807@Webmail-d113.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1382924264.17447.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I'm sorry not to have known him. I only knew of him. ? I'm also sorry I missed Islamorada. ? Life is unpredictable, no guaranty of tomorrow. ? Joe ? ? ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2013 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold "Web" Maynard Web took things literally. George told him to test his K-350 to 500 feet for safety so Web hauled it to the Finger Lakes in NY where there was enough water. And took her in stages right on down to 500 feet. Kittredge was shocked. Web, not so much. He figured if he built it right it was going to do 500 anyway, so he might as well go along. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Oct 27, 2013 9:02 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold "Web" Maynard Services for Harold Maynard will be held Nov 9 at Caywood Funeral Home in Elmira, NY. On 10/26/2013 8:03 PM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > My fellow psubbers, > > I have been advised that Harold "Web" Maynard passed away October 21, > 2013 after ill-health for a number of years. Harold was a good friend > of Captain Kittredge and owner of a K-350 named "Lake Diver". Web was > an excellent speaker and could keep your attention for hours > describing his submarine diving experiences. For those of you > unfamiliar with Harold, a link to a photo of him at the 2003 > convention is included below. I have no information regarding funeral > arrangements but will forward them upon receipt. > > http://www.psubs.org/convention/2003/pics.cgi?pics/speakers/p2.jpg > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mholt at ohiohills.com Sun Oct 27 22:37:56 2013 From: mholt at ohiohills.com (Michael Holt) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 22:37:56 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold "Web" Maynard In-Reply-To: <1382924264.17447.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <526C5855.5090905@psubs.org> <526DB734.3090108@psubs.org> <8D0A191C409426F-1784-1B807@Webmail-d113.sysops.aol.com> <1382924264.17447.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <526DCE04.9020506@ohiohills.com> On 10/27/2013 9:37 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > I'm sorry not to have known him. I only knew of him. > I'm also sorry I missed Islamorada. > Life is unpredictable, no guaranty of tomorrow. > I find lots of fascinating persons when I read the obituaries. There's gotta be a way to find them before they're dead. I'd heard of him, too, and wanted to meet him. Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 00:21:24 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 21:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: References: <1382903588.67968.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382934084.91627.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Good to hear about the Protruar Emile. I enquired about them with the Chinese manufacturer & they offered to send a sample for a very reasonable price. But it will be too big for my needs. Alan. P.S. crazy people everywhere. ________________________________ From: Emile van Essen To: 'Personal Submersibles General Discussion' Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 9:33 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request The Dutch are crazy ;-) ? My sub was intensive used ;I spend 50 Hours UW the last 3 months. The Torque-jet hubless thrusters proved to be perfect, no compensating, no problem. The Haswing Protuar at the stern worked also fine and very efficient. The 2.0 HP brushless motor has a big slow turning prop . The gearbox (15:1 !!) is noisy and it can only be air compensated. ? Regards, Emile The Netherlands .. ? ________________________________ Van:Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alan James Verzonden: zondag 27 oktober 2013 20:53 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request ? Thanks Alec. Forget Minn kottas, this Dutch man is really on to something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZJTGqmtzBs Alan ? ________________________________ From:Private To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request ? It would be fine as long as the total work being done is held constant. In other words swept area times pitch for the custom prop equals swept area times pitch for the stock one. That's assuming equal rpm.? ? Once you put on the new prop, verify by measuring the amps drawn. If it isn't drawing more amps it won't be heating up more than with the standard prop. ? ? Best, ? Alec ? On Oct 27, 2013, at 3:07 PM, Alan James wrote: I am wondering whether it is a good idea to change the prop >size on the Minn Kotta. Or whether it would be good to get advice >from Minn kotta first. After reading the issues about sub sea motors & overheating >I am a bit wary of increasing the load, amps & heat in the motor by increasing >the prop size. >With regard to Kort nozzles.... I found a design on the internet, then tracked down a bucket of suitable size & slope, fiber glassed around a portion of it, then built up the thickness?of the leading edge. >Alan >? >? >? >? > >________________________________ > >From:Private >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:29 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >? >Hi Joe, >? >Thanks for doing this. I have a Minnkota 101 here that I can measure for you, but I also have some suggestions for your consideration. > >Oil or air compensation are both easy and trouble free, so I really don't see much value-add in the magnetic coupling. Or in a hard case. Ditto reverse, my trolling motor thrusters with 13 years on them have yet to wear out the reverse washer, and it's not like I don't use reverse. >? >Where I do see real room for improvement is with props and nozzles. The stock props are very short pitched, so if you put several 101s on a small sub for main propulsion, I suspect you would not get the cruising speed that their combined horse power would otherwise achieve. In other words, it would be like putting a big engine in your car but only having first gear. >? >Emile shared with me that the nice kort on his stern thruster is off a diving scooter. I researched those briefly and indeed they're in the ballpark of trolling motor prop diameters, and some appear to be true korts. Since kort nozzles are hard to make, ID'ing one that's a good match would be really useful. While looking at scooters, I noticed some have variable pitch props. By variable I mean adjustable with tools, not adjustable underway. That could prove a big performance booster for our application. >? >In summary, I'd encourage a focus on the prop and nozzle, as I've found the standard seals and reverse to be perfectly satisfactory. My trolling motors leaked for the first time in 2012, after 12 years of use. I've left the oil in them for years at a time. When I finally serviced them last year, there were cheap rebuild kits readily available.? >? >Do you need the measurements of the inside bits too?? >? >? >Best, >? >Alec >? > >On Oct 27, 2013, at 8:29 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: >All Psubber Alert. >> >>A handful of members in conversation off list are coming to the conclusion that perhaps a best solution to the thruster issues discussed, is to improve on what has been demonstrated to already be viable. That is Minn Kotas as demonstrated by Snoopy, Idabel, et al. Parts are readily available and inexpensive. Case in point here,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaQuickRef.htm >> >>Hank has graciously offered his efforts in modifying several he already has on hand, and I am willing to put in many hours of CAD work to come up with working drawings, with an eye on this armature in particular,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaArmatureAssy92-100-216.htm >> >>The goal would be to add a mag coupling, Kort nozzle, and true reversibility to a package that is compact, (4" dia) and field serviceable / replaceable. The end product result would be open source to the PSUB community. >> >>Immediate problem that needs a solution. >> >>I need a lot of information and detail in order to proceed. Particularly what I need is dimensioned section drawings of appropriately sized models. Unfortunately, Minn Kota does not make this information readily available as demonstrated here,... http://www.minnkotamotors.com/service/ascs.aspx >> >>We need help accessing this information otherwise the effort is hobbled from the start. If anyone can help in this regard it would help tremendously. >> >>Joe >> >> >>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >? _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 00:31:08 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 21:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <8D0A16CF9141607-17EC-1435C@webmail-m249.sysops.aol.com> References: <1382876973.64200.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382900879.63564.YahooMailNeo@web141206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0A16CF9141607-17EC-1435C@webmail-m249.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1382934668.88591.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ?Vance, I can't remember hearing all of that, so thanks for the post. Good to have that reasurance. Alan ________________________________ From: "vbra676539 at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 9:48 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Not to throw any cold water on this parade, I should remind you that we went through this whole thing a couple of years ago. I spoke with some very nice folks (engineers) at Minn-Kota who were pretty clear about the design parameters. They don't use kort nozzles because they don't need them. The SP101 has the guts to shove a ton and a half of fishing boat against currents or breeze, and do it all day. The bearings are designed for the load they are under at full power with plenty left over for snags. The unit itself in their view is about as good as it gets. Taking it further would require a redesign for bearing lands and webs, the bearings themselves, and the rotating shaft to apply all that new torque.?They looked into korts originally, but the penalties are too high for the projected results. Plus, the 101 as it stands simply doesn't need it according to M-K. From what I've seen, they are right. You want more in that design style then you have to do what they did with the 4 hp outboard--step up to bigger windings, magnets, bearings, shafts, etc. Dollars to pounds of thrust??It's hard to beat for?light duty, which is what we?do.? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan James To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Sun, Oct 27, 2013 3:08 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I am wondering whether it is a good idea to change the prop size on the Minn Kotta. Or whether it would be good to get advice from Minn kotta first. After reading the issues about sub sea motors & overheating I am a bit wary of increasing the load, amps & heat in the motor by increasing the prop size. With regard to Kort nozzles.... I found a design on the internet, then tracked down a bucket of suitable size & slope, fiber glassed around a portion of it, then built up the thickness?of the leading edge. Alan ________________________________ From: Private To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:29 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hi Joe, Thanks for doing this. I have a Minnkota 101 here that I can measure for you, but I also have some suggestions for your consideration. Oil or air compensation are both easy and trouble free, so I really don't see much value-add in the magnetic coupling. Or in a hard case. Ditto reverse, my trolling motor thrusters with 13 years on them have yet to wear out the reverse washer, and it's not like I don't use reverse. Where I do see real room for improvement is with props and nozzles. The stock props are very short pitched, so if you put several 101s on a small sub for main propulsion, I suspect you would not get the cruising speed that their combined horse power would otherwise achieve. In other words, it would be like putting a big engine in your car but only having first gear. Emile shared with me that the nice kort on his stern thruster is off a diving scooter. I researched those briefly and indeed they're in the ballpark of trolling motor prop diameters, and some appear to be true korts. Since kort nozzles are hard to make, ID'ing one that's a good match would be really useful. While looking at scooters, I noticed some have variable pitch props. By variable I mean adjustable with tools, not adjustable underway. That could prove a big performance booster for our application. In summary, I'd encourage a focus on the prop and nozzle, as I've found the standard seals and reverse to be perfectly satisfactory. My trolling motors leaked for the first time in 2012, after 12 years of use. I've left the oil in them for years at a time. When I finally serviced them last year, there were cheap rebuild kits readily available.? Do you need the measurements of the inside bits too?? Best, Alec On Oct 27, 2013, at 8:29 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: All Psubber Alert. > >A handful of members in conversation off list are coming to the conclusion that perhaps a best solution to the thruster issues discussed, is to improve on what has been demonstrated to already be viable. That is Minn Kotas as demonstrated by Snoopy, Idabel, et al. Parts are readily available and inexpensive. Case in point here,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaQuickRef.htm > >Hank has graciously offered his efforts in modifying several he already has on hand, and I am willing to put in many hours of CAD work to come up with working drawings, with an eye on this armature in particular,.. http://www.northlandmarine.com/MinnKotaArmatureAssy92-100-216.htm > >The goal would be to add a mag coupling, Kort nozzle, and true reversibility to a package that is compact, (4" dia) and field serviceable / replaceable. The end product result would be open source to the PSUB community. > >Immediate problem that needs a solution. > >I need a lot of information and detail in order to proceed. Particularly what I need is dimensioned section drawings of appropriately sized models. Unfortunately, Minn Kota does not make this information readily available as demonstrated here,... http://www.minnkotamotors.com/service/ascs.aspx > >We need help accessing this information otherwise the effort is hobbled from the start. If anyone can help in this regard it would help tremendously. > >Joe > > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 01:04:30 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2013 22:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382924039.99038.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <526DB0C8.4040604@psubs.org> <1382924039.99038.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382936670.18789.YahooMailNeo@web141203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Joe, I think it would be really difficult to fabricate a Kort nozzle on a CNC machine.? The nozzle portion could be mass produced by making the first by hand, then casting a silicone mold around it & pouring a glass reinforced resin in to this. The fins & motor attachment method could be also? made like this & attached to the kort?nozzle.? Alan ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:33 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Jon, The short answer is I dont know. But look at that Dutchman and his simplistic ingenuity. Thats what Im hoping for out of this group as far as materials and processes. Im ready to draw up whatever the result. Consider that there are intrepid builders of all sorts of things worldwide. Hovercrafters build large scale ducts for thier craft as a example. I'll take a look there tomorrow. ? How about half a kort??? A plug of some kind (construction grade?foam perhaps?)?to build up a FRP shell over then mate two halves?Revelle model style??? Can this shape be hot wired?? What to use as a guide? I have ideas and questions, but I need the shop wizards of the world to come up with the process. ? As for The other things, Im ready and willing. I like the thruster because with my family and work?time constraints, its not too much to chew on. I can commit to small projects for now, bigger later as time goes on. ? What would you like to see done apart from the thrusters? ? Joe From: Jon Wallace ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:33:12 AM What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC?? I think a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not reaching beyond a thousand.? When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in the operational experience given that the motors are operating very slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated).? The props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater.? True, a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the cost?? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 liter engine under the hood does it? Like Vance, I don't want to rain on the parade and I do "get it" that the challenge of coming up with a "home-built" alternative can be rewarding.? I just think that production cost will be the determining factor on practical use.? Like going from T-Rex back to minn-kota, I can't help but wonder if the ultimate conclusion will turn out to be that the stock minn-kota's are good enough for 99.99% of our applications. I can think of many things that your CAD experience could offer to the group if you are interested in providing some designs.? For example the K350 plan modifications that have been talked about by a few people.? We could really use help in that area.? Jon On 10/27/2013 6:20 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: Alec, >? >I've gone round and round for the past two weeks in depth on the issues of propulsion and have come full circle back to the trolling motors. I was on hiatus for the discussion mentioned by Vance ref contact with the manufacturer as I would have remembered that. >? >So, I'm with you on the prop and nozzle. While the 101's may indeed have plenty of guts for the job as is, the Kort data shows a 30% improvement in Bollard thrust at low speeds for any given prop diameter. That and the added benefit of protecting the prop, are significant enough reasons to forge ahead. This is actually good news, less work by not mucking around with the guts of the motor. >? >You guys are the builders with recent hands on, I'm behind in the trial and error business because I cant get started tinkering yet. But as you well know, I developed CAD capability for this purpose only, so time to put it to real use. Where I need help is deciding on materials and manufacturing processes. I can give you guys the cutting files needed to whittle a Kort out of a block of solid titanium, but that would not be practical. That's my limitation and where hands on experience counts. >? >Now these nozzles are reverse foils with coordinates?in percent of length. I can generate a NACA 4415 on my airfoil generator and transfer that to the model.??I can give us accurate 3d models and eventually CNC cutting files for whatever the group wants on these Minn Kotas, nozzles and attachment hardware. I can do?both Nozzles, Marin 19A, and or?37, with the latter being optimized bi-directionally. >? >Finding something off the shelf would be ideal, but I suspect given the nature of the business and the quote I recieved it would likely prove problematic. >? >You need a new square tip prop to optimize the duct. I've had custom props made for my boat in the past, so that should not prove insurmountable. I should be able to do the prop as well. >? >Can we post pictures on this forum?, I forget. It would be helpful to point things out. If I could post pictures of the?various exploded diagrams, I can point to where I want dimensions with red arrows.?Eventually, I'll start a web-page. >? >So for now, I need some detail on the shaft and prop as is., what have you done with that washer and where it is in the drive, as well as any other modifications. >? >I think this is a decent group effort?project, and one that can pay dividends in the end. >? >Joe > > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spiritofcalypso at gmail.com Mon Oct 28 01:37:49 2013 From: spiritofcalypso at gmail.com (Douglas Suhr) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 01:37:49 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Harold "Web" Maynard In-Reply-To: <526DCE04.9020506@ohiohills.com> References: <526C5855.5090905@psubs.org> <526DB734.3090108@psubs.org> <8D0A191C409426F-1784-1B807@Webmail-d113.sysops.aol.com> <1382924264.17447.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <526DCE04.9020506@ohiohills.com> Message-ID: Jon, thanks for keeping us informed. It is sad to learn of the passing of a fellow submariner. I had read of Harold Maynard in Captain Kittredge's book and wanted to one day meet him. I see now that, like my chance to meet George, my opportunity to meet Mr. Maynard has come and gone. I am sure though that the stories and exploits of Lake Diver will live on. Out of curiosity, what has happened to Lake Diver? Did someone purchase the submersible? I noticed that the long standing for sale listing on the site has been removed. ~ Douglas S. On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 10:37 PM, Michael Holt wrote: > On 10/27/2013 9:37 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > I'm sorry not to have known him. I only knew of him. > > I'm also sorry I missed Islamorada. > > Life is unpredictable, no guaranty of tomorrow. > > I find lots of fascinating persons when I read the obituaries. There's > gotta be a way to find them before they're dead. > > I'd heard of him, too, and wanted to meet him. > > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piolenc at archivale.com Mon Oct 28 02:57:56 2013 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 14:57:56 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <526DB0C8.4040604@psubs.org> References: <1382876973.64200.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382912430.33655.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <526DB0C8.4040604@psubs.org> Message-ID: <526E0AF4.60709@archivale.com> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: Prop matched to the shroud Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle Motor matched to the resulting prop Marc On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think > a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect > machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not > reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos > it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in > the operational experience given that the motors are operating very > slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The > props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, > a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the > cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no > passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 > liter engine under the hood does it? -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 03:31:45 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan James) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 00:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <526E0AF4.60709@archivale.com> References: <1382876973.64200.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382912430.33655.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <526DB0C8.4040604@psubs.org> <526E0AF4.60709@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1382945505.27965.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Joe, I was going to suggest that Marc wade in on this subject, it is one of his fields of expertise. I believe he has written books on ducted fans etc. Marc is a very talented guy hidden away in an obscure corner of the Philippines.He may be a helpful source of information if you want to get this right. We sure have a multi-talented group here. Alan ________________________________ From: Marc de Piolenc To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: Prop matched to the shroud Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle Motor matched to the resulting prop Marc On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think > a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect > machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not > reaching beyond a thousand.? When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos > it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in > the operational experience given that the motors are operating very > slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated).? The > props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater.? True, > a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the > cost?? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no > passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 > liter engine under the hood does it? -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 06:13:38 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 06:13:38 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <526E0AF4.60709@archivale.com> References: <1382876973.64200.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382912430.33655.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <526DB0C8.4040604@psubs.org> <526E0AF4.60709@archivale.com> Message-ID: <256E9DCB-11F2-4BC8-9474-F959B84A6541@yahoo.com> How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? Joe Sent from my overpriced iPhone On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: > > Prop matched to the shroud > Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle > Motor matched to the resulting prop > > Marc > > On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >> >> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The >> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, >> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >> liter engine under the hood does it? > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From emile at airesearch.nl Mon Oct 28 06:26:29 2013 From: emile at airesearch.nl (Emile van Essen) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 11:26:29 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kort Nozzle (was Group Help Request) In-Reply-To: <1382945505.27965.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alan and others. I added a Kort nozzle to the Haswing. Seems to work fine. It originates from a good quality scuba dive scooter (Brand name Gavin) . I never measured but it comes clos to a real Kort profile. Cost: abt. 200,- Emile _____ Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alan James Verzonden: maandag 28 oktober 2013 8:32 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Joe, I was going to suggest that Marc wade in on this subject, it is one of his fields of expertise. I believe he has written books on ducted fans etc. Marc is a very talented guy hidden away in an obscure corner of the Philippines.He may be a helpful source of information if you want to get this right. We sure have a multi-talented group here. Alan _____ From: Marc de Piolenc To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: Prop matched to the shroud Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle Motor matched to the resulting prop Marc On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think > a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect > machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not > reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos > it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in > the operational experience given that the motors are operating very > slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The > props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, > a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the > cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no > passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 > liter engine under the hood does it? -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piolenc at archivale.com Mon Oct 28 06:28:20 2013 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 18:28:20 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382945505.27965.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382876973.64200.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382912430.33655.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <526DB0C8.4040604@psubs.org> <526E0AF4.60709@archivale.com> <1382945505.27965.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <526E3C44.1040505@archivale.com> Aw shucks, Sir... I forgot to mention that you can probably get a Kort nozzle with adequate strength generated using 3-D printing, after designing it in some suitable CAD or CAE package. Might be a good deal cheaper than CNC machining. To estimate the thrust on the shroud, just guess at what you're getting with an open prop, and figure that the shroud will have to take equal thrust. Best, Marc de Piolenc In the tropical paradise known as Mindanao On 10/28/2013 3:31 PM, Alan James wrote: > Joe, > I was going to suggest that Marc wade in on this subject, it is one of > his fields > of expertise. I believe he has written books on ducted fans etc. > Marc is a very talented guy hidden away in an obscure corner of the > Philippines.He may be a helpful > source of information if you want to get this right. > We sure have a multi-talented group here. > Alan > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Marc de Piolenc > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 7:57 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A > MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course > it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just > put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a > shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key > ingredients for success: > > Prop matched to the shroud > Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle > Motor matched to the resulting prop > > Marc > > On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > > > What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think > > a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect > > machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not > > reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos > > it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in > > the operational experience given that the motors are operating very > > slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The > > props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, > > a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the > > cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no > > passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 > > liter engine under the hood does it? > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From pilotfishp at gmail.com Mon Oct 28 06:44:50 2013 From: pilotfishp at gmail.com (Antoine Delafargue) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 11:44:50 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: References: <1382903588.67968.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > **** > The Dutch are crazy ;-)**** > > ** > Case in point Emile: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_l1lIRUwfx0 you seem to be also a specialist in noisy reduction gear boxes... regards, Antoine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piolenc at archivale.com Mon Oct 28 06:46:58 2013 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 18:46:58 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <256E9DCB-11F2-4BC8-9474-F959B84A6541@yahoo.com> References: <1382876973.64200.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382912430.33655.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <526DB0C8.4040604@psubs.org> <526E0AF4.60709@archivale.com> <256E9DCB-11F2-4BC8-9474-F959B84A6541@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <526E40A2.1050001@archivale.com> Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 06:48:52 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 03:48:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <526E3C44.1040505@archivale.com> References: <1382876973.64200.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382912430.33655.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <526DB0C8.4040604@psubs.org> <526E0AF4.60709@archivale.com> <1382945505.27965.YahooMailNeo@web141201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <526E3C44.1040505@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1382957332.92068.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Ah, 3d printing! ? You see, I knew some wizard somewhere would come up with the process! Thank you Marc! ? I will get busy producing those CAD files once I get the dimensions of the 101 in hand. Any PSUBBER wanting a Kort Nozzle on a Minn Kota will have one. ? Joe ________________________________ From: Marc de Piolenc To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 6:28 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Aw shucks, Sir... I forgot to mention that you can probably get a Kort nozzle with adequate strength generated using 3-D printing, after designing it in some suitable CAD or CAE package. Might be a good deal cheaper than CNC machining. To estimate the thrust on the shroud, just guess at what you're getting with an open prop, and figure that the shroud will have to take equal thrust. Best, Marc de Piolenc In the tropical paradise known as Mindanao On 10/28/2013 3:31 PM, Alan James wrote: > Joe, > I was going to suggest that Marc wade in on this subject, it is one of > his fields > of expertise. I believe he has written books on ducted fans etc. > Marc is a very talented guy hidden away in an obscure corner of the > Philippines.He may be a helpful > source of information if you want to get this right. > We sure have a multi-talented group here. > Alan > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Marc de Piolenc > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 7:57 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A > MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course > it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just > put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a > shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key > ingredients for success: > > Prop matched to the shroud > Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle > Motor matched to the resulting prop > > Marc > > On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >? > >? > What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >? > a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >? > machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >? > reaching beyond a thousand.? When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >? > it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >? > the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >? > slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated).? The >? > props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater.? True, >? > a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >? > cost?? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >? > passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >? > liter engine under the hood does it? > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 07:41:42 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 04:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <526E40A2.1050001@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1382960502.5775.YahooMailIosMobile@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx

Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world.

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Oct 28 08:59:57 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 05:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382960502.5775.YahooMailIosMobile@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <526E40A2.1050001@archivale.com> <1382960502.5775.YahooMailIosMobile@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382965197.66747.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, The beauty of being a hobby amateur sub builder designer is, your projects do not need to be practical.? Your project only needs to be fun and safe.? If your kort nozzle fails to deliver at a low cost, who cares.??We?tend to?talk about the things that work.? I have??shelves ?full of unfinished and failed projects?and I?am proud of it?.? I am sure many ?others have the same. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand.? When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated).? The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater.? True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost?? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >-- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalogPolymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblogTranslations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolencDucted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Oct 28 09:30:07 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 06:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382960502.5775.YahooMailIosMobile@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <526E40A2.1050001@archivale.com> <1382960502.5775.YahooMailIosMobile@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382967007.93150.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike.? My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand.? When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated).? The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater.? True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost?? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >-- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalogPolymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblogTranslations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolencDucted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Mon Oct 28 09:39:38 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 09:39:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382960502.5775.YahooMailIosMobile@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382960502.5775.YahooMailIosMobile@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0A1FA485ABC99-1A30-217B@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> Joe, Another company that will give you quick quotes on printing a 3D object in a variety of materials is www.shapeways.com. The Kort nozzle (the ring itself) doesn't necessarily have to be printed in one piece; it could be printed in two or three segments of the circle and joined together. What material do you plan to use for the supports, and how do you plan to attach them to the motor housing? The nozzle and the supports don't have to be of the same material, and printing the nozzle doesn't mean you have to print the supports. Lots of options to consider. There are services around such as www.lazerdesign.com that can do a 3D scan on an existing object and save a lot of CAD work. You can also find desktop 3D scanners for sale such as www.makerbot.com/Digitizer. Just for fun, take a look at Nuytco's MK-2 thruster: http://nuytco.com/products/nmt12-mk2-thruster/ Have fun, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 6:42 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Mon Oct 28 09:46:30 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 08:46:30 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Message-ID: Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphonehank pronk wrote:Joe, Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike.? My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand.? When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated).? The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater.? True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost?? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >-- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalogPolymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblogTranslations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolencDucted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 09:57:24 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 02:57:24 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <8D0A1FA485ABC99-1A30-217B@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> References: <1382960502.5775.YahooMailIosMobile@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0A1FA485ABC99-1A30-217B@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <5E56AA3F-761A-4152-9EB4-55453F5F745F@yahoo.com> Joe, From what I've seen, $2-3 per cubic inch is a good price for 3d printing. So a kort nozzle would be quite expensive. You could prototype 1 & form a mold from it. Under ambient in the psubs project section, I have a photo of my kort nozzle in process. I incorporated a sleeve to slide the motor in to. However, as said, to mold this you would need to do it in 2 sections. Alan Sent from my iPad On 29/10/2013, at 2:39 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: > Joe, > > Another company that will give you quick quotes on printing a 3D object in a variety of materials is www.shapeways.com. > > The Kort nozzle (the ring itself) doesn't necessarily have to be printed in one piece; it could be printed in two or three segments of the circle and joined together. What material do you plan to use for the supports, and how do you plan to attach them to the motor housing? The nozzle and the supports don't have to be of the same material, and printing the nozzle doesn't mean you have to print the supports. Lots of options to consider. > > There are services around such as www.lazerdesign.com that can do a 3D scan on an existing object and save a lot of CAD work. You can also find desktop 3D scanners for sale such as www.makerbot.com/Digitizer. > > Just for fun, take a look at Nuytco's MK-2 thruster: http://nuytco.com/products/nmt12-mk2-thruster/ > > Have fun, > Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Perkel > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 6:42 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx > > Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > From: Marc de Piolenc ; > To: ; > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM > > Never thought much about doing it at small scale. > > I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel > and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had > the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the > master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some > suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. > > 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy > available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital > results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another > prototype is very quick. > > Marc > > On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > > > Joe > > > > Sent from my overpriced > > iPhone > > > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > > > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: > >> > >> Prop matched to the shroud > >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle > >> Motor matched to the resulting prop > >> > >> Marc > >> > >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > >>> > >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think > >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect > >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not > >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos > >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in > >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very > >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The > >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, > >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the > >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no > >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 > >>> liter engine under the hood does it? > >> -- > >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Mon Oct 28 09:59:42 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 09:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D0A1FD15761A06-19E4-245F@webmail-d134.sysops.aol.com> Don't be torn. I'm doing all three of those things on mine. And don't forget the real reason for putting the bottles outside. Payload!!! Two HP air tanks and the brackets George specifies in the plans, I think it's nearly 150#. Call it 70 kilos. That's a whole 'nother person you could haul around. Or lots of gear (manips, sonar, comms, etc.). Vance -----Original Message----- From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 9:47 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Joe, Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike. My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >-- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalogPolymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblogTranslations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolencDucted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbra676539 at aol.com Mon Oct 28 10:12:13 2013 From: vbra676539 at aol.com (vbra676539 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 10:12:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <5E56AA3F-761A-4152-9EB4-55453F5F745F@yahoo.com> References: <1382960502.5775.YahooMailIosMobile@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0A1FA485ABC99-1A30-217B@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> <5E56AA3F-761A-4152-9EB4-55453F5F745F@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0A1FED59BBA62-19E4-262E@webmail-d134.sysops.aol.com> My brother is a wizard on the wood lathe. I'm sure he could come up with a hardwood plug in pretty much no time, once the shape and overall dimensions are finalized. Then seal the wood with something, spray on mold release, and lay on the fiberglass. It would be cheap and provide at least a beginning to test the nozzle shape and prop. Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alan To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 9:57 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Joe, >From what I've seen, $2-3 per cubic inch is a good price for 3d printing. So a kort nozzle would be quite expensive. You could prototype 1 & form a mold from it. Under ambient in the psubs project section, I have a photo of my kort nozzle in process. I incorporated a sleeve to slide the motor in to. However, as said, to mold this you would need to do it in 2 sections. Alan Sent from my iPad On 29/10/2013, at 2:39 AM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Joe, Another company that will give you quick quotes on printing a 3D object in a variety of materials is www.shapeways.com. The Kort nozzle (the ring itself) doesn't necessarily have to be printed in one piece; it could be printed in two or three segments of the circle and joined together. What material do you plan to use for the supports, and how do you plan to attach them to the motor housing? The nozzle and the supports don't have to be of the same material, and printing the nozzle doesn't mean you have to print the supports. Lots of options to consider. There are services around such as www.lazerdesign.com that can do a 3D scan on an existing object and save a lot of CAD work. You can also find desktop 3D scanners for sale such as www.makerbot.com/Digitizer. Just for fun, take a look at Nuytco's MK-2 thruster: http://nuytco.com/products/nmt12-mk2-thruster/ Have fun, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 6:42 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Mon Oct 28 10:24:47 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 10:24:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Exterior HP tanks and weights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D0A200973DF4C3-1A30-2853@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> Scott, I'm locating the HP's on the exterior for several reasons, but of course anytime you move something to the exterior you increase the displacement and therefore the amount of weight required to submerge the vessel. Adding or subtracting exterior weights is fine prior to launch, but a real pain once you're in the water. It's not always easy to add interior weights either when the sub is in the water. I still have to come up with a way to conveniently stow and secure up to 250 lb of lead inside to compensate for different size pilots/passengers or diving with no passenger. "Sub Design: A Study in Trade-Offs" Jim -----Original Message----- From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 8:47 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Joe, Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike. My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >-- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalogPolymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblogTranslations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolencDucted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Oct 28 10:28:59 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 07:28:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1382970539.98318.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Scott, I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones.? They could go outside on a peg so to speak.? The only problem is you want them at the bottom of the sub.? That means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet.? Maybe a slide system.??? I thought the same thing to put the air outside, that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness.? :-) Hank From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphonehank pronk wrote: Joe, Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike.? My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand.? When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated).? The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater.? True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost?? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 10:52:36 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 07:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382970539.98318.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1382970539.98318.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382971956.24910.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle only in ABS plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting for prop clearance is $760. This is using FDM process. ? Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast urethane? Dont want it anyway!!! ? I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop for a 4" motor in order to get the quote exact. ? Joe ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Scott, I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones.? They could go outside on a peg so to speak.? The only problem is you want them at the bottom of the sub.? That means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet.? Maybe a slide system.??? I thought the same thing to put the air outside, that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness.? :-) Hank ________________________________ From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphonehank pronk wrote: Joe, Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike.? My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. Hank ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand.? When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated).? The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater.? True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost?? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Mon Oct 28 10:57:58 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 10:57:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382970539.98318.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1382970539.98318.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0A20539A4362B-1A30-2DED@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> Hank, I considered a slide system for exterior weights, but I couldn't come up with anything I like for adding weight, and it was even worse for removing weight. I reserved the space under each of the two seats (tandem) for the removable weights. Jim -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 9:29 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Scott, I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones. They could go outside on a peg so to speak. The only problem is you want them at the bottom of the sub. That means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet. Maybe a slide system. I thought the same thing to put the air outside, that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness. :-) Hank From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Joe, Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike. My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Mon Oct 28 11:03:28 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 11:03:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382971956.24910.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382970539.98318.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382971956.24910.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0A205FDC814D1-1A30-2ED9@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> Joe, Since you asked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_urethanes Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 9:54 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle only in ABS plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting for prop clearance is $760. This is using FDM process. Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast urethane? Dont want it anyway!!! I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop for a 4" motor in order to get the quote exact. Joe From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Scott, I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones. They could go outside on a peg so to speak. The only problem is you want them at the bottom of the sub. That means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet. Maybe a slide system. I thought the same thing to put the air outside, that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness. :-) Hank From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Joe, Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike. My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Mon Oct 28 11:16:45 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 11:16:45 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kort Nozzle In-Reply-To: <1382924039.99038.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <526DB0C8.4040604@psubs.org> <1382924039.99038.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <526E7FDD.1030806@psubs.org> Hi Joe, There are a number of enhancements that have been discussed by members building K-350's. We'd have to collect those and see what you were comfortable with committing to. Scott Waters had a list of enhancements/changes that he recommended as part of his presentation in Islamorada. He can probably communicate those or I can look them up from his slides. James Frankland is another person whom had suggestions for vessel improvements. I'll see if I can get a list together and then you can decide if you want to invest time in them. In regards to the kort nozzle, I believe the design geometry required to produce the thrust enhancement that has been discussed in this thread will not survive a hand lapped FRP approach. Like an airfoil, any deviation from the design will reduce efficiency. Enough deviation and you've spent a lot of time and money on nothing more than a glorified prop guard. It would make sense to include as part of the kort project some means of testing the efficiency of the actual product so we could determine the effectiveness of various production methods. Jon On 10/27/2013 9:33 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Jon, > > The short answer is I dont know. But look at that Dutchman and his > simplistic ingenuity. Thats what Im hoping for out of this group as > far as materials and processes. Im ready to draw up whatever the > result. Consider that there are intrepid builders of all sorts of > things worldwide. Hovercrafters build large scale ducts for thier > craft as a example. I'll take a look there tomorrow. > How about half a kort??? A plug of some kind (/construction grade foam > perhaps/?) to build up a FRP shell over then mate two halves Revelle > model style??? Can this shape be hot wired?? What to use as a guide? I > have ideas and questions, but I need the shop wizards of the world to > come up with the process. > As for The other things, Im ready and willing. I like the thruster > because with my family and work time constraints, its not too much to > chew on. I can commit to small projects for now, bigger later as time > goes on. > What would you like to see done apart from the thrusters? > Joe > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Mon Oct 28 11:29:19 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 10:29:19 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Exterior HP tanks and weights Message-ID: My first time in the water was discovering the weight needed. Once I knew that then I attached it to the landing skids and the drop weights. I also have a storeage compartment in the sub that allows up to about 200lbs, but that is mostly reserved for salt water trade off ballast from freash water. I calculated the scuba tanks moving to the out side to move a negative 84 lbs interior to close to neutral when moved to the outside so I need to ad another 84 lbs to compensate. Most of the passenger trim for me is done with the VBT. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphonejimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote:Scott, ? I'm locating the HP's on the exterior for several reasons, but of course anytime you move something to the exterior you increase the displacement and therefore the amount of weight required to submerge the vessel. ? Adding or subtracting exterior weights is fine prior to launch, but a real pain once you're in the water.? It's not always easy to add interior weights either when the sub is in the water.? I still have to come up with a way to conveniently stow and secure up to 250 lb of lead inside to compensate for different size pilots/passengers or diving with no passenger. ? "Sub Design: A Study in Trade-Offs" ? Jim??? -----Original Message----- From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 8:47 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Joe, Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike.? My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand.? When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated).? The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater.? True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost?? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >-- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalogPolymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblogTranslations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolencDucted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Mon Oct 28 11:45:32 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 11:45:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Exterior HP tanks and weights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D0A20BDEB01747-1A30-3659@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> Scott, What's the capacity of your VBT? I can get some adjustment for different size passengers using the forward VBT, but switching from carrying a passenger to solo diving is beyond its range. Jim -----Original Message----- From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:31 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Exterior HP tanks and weights My first time in the water was discovering the weight needed. Once I knew that then I attached it to the landing skids and the drop weights. I also have a storeage compartment in the sub that allows up to about 200lbs, but that is mostly reserved for salt water trade off ballast from freash water. I calculated the scuba tanks moving to the out side to move a negative 84 lbs interior to close to neutral when moved to the outside so I need to ad another 84 lbs to compensate. Most of the passenger trim for me is done with the VBT. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Scott, I'm locating the HP's on the exterior for several reasons, but of course anytime you move something to the exterior you increase the displacement and therefore the amount of weight required to submerge the vessel. Adding or subtracting exterior weights is fine prior to launch, but a real pain once you're in the water. It's not always easy to add interior weights either when the sub is in the water. I still have to come up with a way to conveniently stow and secure up to 250 lb of lead inside to compensate for different size pilots/passengers or diving with no passenger. "Sub Design: A Study in Trade-Offs" Jim -----Original Message----- From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 8:47 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Joe, Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike. My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >-- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalogPolymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblogTranslations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolencDucted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Oct 28 12:03:38 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 09:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382971956.24910.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382970539.98318.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382971956.24910.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382976218.11823.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, My prop is 13.5 in dia, it is severy rears old so may have some material lost from rubbing etc. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 8:52:36 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle only in ABS plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting for prop clearance is $760. This is using FDM process. ? Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast urethane? Dont want it anyway!!! ? I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop for a 4" motor in order to get the quote exact. ? Joe From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Scott, I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones.? They could go outside on a peg so to speak.? The only problem is you want them at the bottom of the sub.? That means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet.? Maybe a slide system.??? I thought the same thing to put the air outside, that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness.? :-) Hank From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphonehank pronk wrote: Joe, Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike.? My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand.? When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated).? The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater.? True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost?? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seaquestor at gmail.com Mon Oct 28 12:12:03 2013 From: seaquestor at gmail.com (David Colombo) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 09:12:03 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <8D0A205FDC814D1-1A30-2ED9@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> References: <1382970539.98318.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382971956.24910.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0A205FDC814D1-1A30-2ED9@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hey Joe, I will send you my cad files on the Minkota 101 Saltwater. I have measured my new 101s and weed 2 prop. I have also worked out the Marin 37 Kort nozzel design and attachment to the thruster for use on the SeaQuestor project. I will be most likely sending it to my fiberglass fabricator who will cut the assembly in foam on their 5 axis cnc, ready for a fiberglass overlay. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:03 AM, wrote: > Joe, > Since you asked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_urethanes > Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Perkel > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 9:54 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle only in ABS > plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting for prop clearance is > $760. This is using FDM process. > > Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast urethane? Dont > want it anyway!!! > > I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop for a 4" > motor in order to get the quote exact. > > Joe > > *From:* hank pronk > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > Scott, > I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones. They could go > outside on a peg so to speak. The only problem is you want them at the > bottom of the sub. That means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet. > Maybe a slide system. I thought the same thing to put the air outside, > that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness. :-) > Hank > > *From:* swaters > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say > adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the > floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp > air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > hank pronk wrote: > Joe, > Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a > k sub or alike. My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. > Hank > > *From:* Joe Perkel > *To:* "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" > *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while > waiting to take my daughter to school,.. > http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx > > Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the > real world. > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > *From: *Marc de Piolenc ; *To: *< > personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; *Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group > Help Request *Sent: *Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM > Never thought much about doing it at small scale. > > I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's > wheel > and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had > the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the > master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some > suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. > > 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy > available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital > results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another > prototype is very quick. > > Marc > > On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > > > Joe > > > > Sent from my overpriced > > iPhone > > > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc > wrote: > > > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A > MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it > won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just > put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a > shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! > Key ingredients for success: > >> > >> Prop matched to the shroud > >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle > >> Motor matched to the resulting prop > >> > >> Marc > >> > >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > >>> > >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I > think > >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect > >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not > >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater > videos > >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference > in > >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very > >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The > >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want > underwater. True, > >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the > >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no > >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or > 5.4 > >>> liter engine under the hood does it? > >> -- > >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: > http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): > http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): > http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: > http://massflow.archivale.com/_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 12:24:18 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 09:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <8D0A1FA485ABC99-1A30-217B@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> References: <1382960502.5775.YahooMailIosMobile@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0A1FA485ABC99-1A30-217B@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1382977458.20014.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Jim, ? On attachment I can use suggestions from the group. But, I am envisioning a concentric ring surrounding the outer housing with a set screw or two. The supports come off of this ring?and are?supported on both ends by countersunk screws. All of this stuff made of the same ABS plastic exept the hardware. ? On the Nuytco thruster, ... 4.5 hp turning a 12.1" propeller with 7.5" pitch?@ 1200 RPM will push a 6,000 lb submersible @ 4.27 kts, So,... if we can enclose a??4.5 hp motor in a #6 Sch 40 pipe and turn that prop @ 1200 rpm, we can mimic this thruster. The problem is feeding the input voltage. ? So my question then is, How is Curasub feeding those 200 - 400 vdc thrusters? Do 8 batteries connected in series give you 200 v? Or is there some type of step up transformer in play here? I am unclear on how this works. ? Joe ________________________________ From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 9:39 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Joe, ? Another company that will give you quick quotes on printing a 3D object in?a variety of materials?is http://www.shapeways.com/.? ? The Kort nozzle (the ring itself) doesn't necessarily have to be printed in one piece; it could be printed in two or three segments of the circle and joined together.? What material do you plan to use for the supports, and how do you plan to attach them to the motor housing?? The nozzle and the supports don't have to be of the same material, and printing the nozzle doesn't mean you have to print the supports.? Lots of options to consider. ? There are services around such as http://www.lazerdesign.com/ ?that can do a 3D scan on an existing object and save a lot of CAD work.??You can also find desktop 3D scanners for sale?such as www.makerbot.com/Digitizer. ? Just for fun, take a look at Nuytco's MK-2 thruster:? http://nuytco.com/products/nmt12-mk2-thruster/ ? Have fun, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 6:42 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand.? When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated).? The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater.? True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost?? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 12:39:08 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 09:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kort Nozzle In-Reply-To: <526E7FDD.1030806@psubs.org> References: <526DB0C8.4040604@psubs.org> <1382924039.99038.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <526E7FDD.1030806@psubs.org> Message-ID: <1382978348.66862.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Jon, ? The geometry is not in question if one uses the 3d printer (or some other machine process)?to form the nozzle, it will be a perfect foil for that $760. I still need those dimensions to finalize a kort design for anyone who wants one. When thats done, I'll forward you the CAD files needed so members can download from the PSUB site to submit to a vendor of choice. ? The kort nozzle itself is simple to do CAD wise, its a revolve command of the foil section around the axis. Im working on the supports today. ? As for other projects for me, Ill look and see where, what, and when I can contribute depending on what ideas are thrown about and viable. All?of this helps me when it comes time to do my own build. ? Joe ________________________________ From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 11:16 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kort Nozzle Hi Joe, There are a number of enhancements that have been discussed by members building K-350's.? We'd have to collect those and see what you were comfortable with committing to.? Scott Waters had a list of enhancements/changes that he recommended as part of his presentation in Islamorada.? He can probably communicate those or I can look them up from his slides.? James Frankland is another person whom had suggestions for vessel improvements.? I'll see if I can get a list together and then you can decide if you want to invest time in them.? In regards to the kort nozzle, I believe the design geometry required to produce the thrust enhancement that has been discussed in this thread will not survive a hand lapped FRP approach.? Like an airfoil, any deviation from the design will reduce efficiency.? Enough deviation and you've spent a lot of time and money on nothing more than a glorified prop guard.? It would make sense to include as part of the kort project some means of testing the efficiency of the actual product so we could determine the effectiveness of various production methods. Jon On 10/27/2013 9:33 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: Jon, > >The short answer is I dont know. But look at that Dutchman and his simplistic ingenuity. Thats what Im hoping for out of this group as far as materials and processes. Im ready to draw up whatever the result. Consider that there are intrepid builders of all sorts of things worldwide. Hovercrafters build large scale ducts for thier craft as a example. I'll take a look there tomorrow. > >How about half a kort??? A plug of some kind (construction grade?foam perhaps?)?to build up a FRP shell over then mate two halves?Revelle model style??? Can this shape be hot wired?? What to use as a guide? I have ideas and questions, but I need the shop wizards of the world to come up with the process. > >As for The other things, Im ready and willing. I like the thruster because with my family and work?time constraints, its not too much to chew on. I can commit to small projects for now, bigger later as time goes on. > >What would you like to see done apart from the thrusters? > >Joe > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 12:43:49 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 09:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: References: <1382970539.98318.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382971956.24910.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0A205FDC814D1-1A30-2ED9@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1382978629.4111.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> David, ? Thats spectacular, thanks! ? Joe ________________________________ From: David Colombo To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 12:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hey Joe, I will send you my cad files on the Minkota 101 Saltwater. I have measured my new 101s and weed 2 prop.? I have also worked out the Marin 37 Kort nozzel design and attachment to the thruster for use on the SeaQuestor project. I will be most likely sending it to my fiberglass fabricator who will cut the assembly in foam? on their 5 axis cnc, ready for a fiberglass overlay. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 http://www.seaquestor.com/ On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:03 AM, wrote: Joe, >Since you asked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_urethanes >Jim >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe Perkel > >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > >Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 9:54 am >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > >Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle only in ABS plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting for prop clearance is $760. This is using FDM process. >? >Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast urethane? Dont want it anyway!!! >? >I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop for a 4" motor in order to get the quote exact. >? >Joe > > >From: hank pronk >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > > >Scott, >I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones.? They could go outside on a peg so to speak.? The only problem is you want them at the bottom of the sub.? That means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet.? Maybe a slide system.??? I thought the same thing to put the air outside, that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness.? :-) >Hank > > >From: swaters >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > >Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. >Thanks, >Scott Waters > > > > > > > > > > >Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphonehank pronk wrote: >Joe, >Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike.? My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. >Hank > > >From: Joe Perkel >To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" >Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > >I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx > >Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM >Never thought much about doing it at small scale. > >I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel >and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had >the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the >master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some >suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. > >3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy >available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital >results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another >prototype is very quick. > >Marc > >On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from my overpriced >> iPhone >> >> On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: >> >>> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >>> >>> Prop matched to the shroud >>> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >>> Motor matched to the resulting prop >>> >>> Marc >>> >>> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>>> >>>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>>> reaching beyond a thousand.? When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated).? The >>>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater.? True, >>>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>>> cost?? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>>> liter engine under the hood does it? >>> -- >>> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >>> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >>> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >>> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >>> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 13:05:24 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 10:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382976218.11823.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1382970539.98318.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382971956.24910.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382976218.11823.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382979924.78542.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hank, ? The Minn Kota prop is really that big? Or is that Gamma? ? Joe ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 12:03 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Joe, My prop is 13.5 in dia, it is severy rears old so may have some material lost from rubbing etc. Hank ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 8:52:36 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle only in ABS plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting for prop clearance is $760. This is using FDM process. ? Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast urethane? Dont want it anyway!!! ? I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop for a 4" motor in order to get the quote exact. ? Joe ________________________________ From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Scott, I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones.? They could go outside on a peg so to speak.? The only problem is you want them at the bottom of the sub.? That means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet.? Maybe a slide system.??? I thought the same thing to put the air outside, that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness.? :-) Hank ________________________________ From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphonehank pronk wrote: Joe, Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike.? My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. Hank ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand.? When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated).? The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater.? True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost?? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Mon Oct 28 13:14:16 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 13:14:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382977458.20014.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382960502.5775.YahooMailIosMobile@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0A1FA485ABC99-1A30-217B@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> <1382977458.20014.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0A2184486201B-1A30-44BF@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> Joe, Eight 12v batteries would just yield nominal 96 volts. The configurations available change when you're connecting lithium batteries, so I'm not sure how they're getting the high DC voltages. I've wondered the same thing, but haven't yet asked those in the group who have expertise in DC systems. We commonly use inverters to convert 12v battery output to 120v AC, so using transformers seems reasonable. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 11:24 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Jim, On attachment I can use suggestions from the group. But, I am envisioning a concentric ring surrounding the outer housing with a set screw or two. The supports come off of this ring and are supported on both ends by countersunk screws. All of this stuff made of the same ABS plastic exept the hardware. On the Nuytco thruster, ... 4.5 hp turning a 12.1" propeller with 7.5" pitch @ 1200 RPM will push a 6,000 lb submersible @ 4.27 kts, So,... if we can enclose a 4.5 hp motor in a #6 Sch 40 pipe and turn that prop @ 1200 rpm, we can mimic this thruster. The problem is feeding the input voltage. So my question then is, How is Curasub feeding those 200 - 400 vdc thrusters? Do 8 batteries connected in series give you 200 v? Or is there some type of step up transformer in play here? I am unclear on how this works. Joe From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 9:39 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Joe, Another company that will give you quick quotes on printing a 3D object in a variety of materials is http://www.shapeways.com/. The Kort nozzle (the ring itself) doesn't necessarily have to be printed in one piece; it could be printed in two or three segments of the circle and joined together. What material do you plan to use for the supports, and how do you plan to attach them to the motor housing? The nozzle and the supports don't have to be of the same material, and printing the nozzle doesn't mean you have to print the supports. Lots of options to consider. There are services around such as http://www.lazerdesign.com/ that can do a 3D scan on an existing object and save a lot of CAD work. You can also find desktop 3D scanners for sale such as www.makerbot.com/Digitizer. Just for fun, take a look at Nuytco's MK-2 thruster: http://nuytco.com/products/nmt12-mk2-thruster/ Have fun, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: personal_submersibles Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 6:42 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Mon Oct 28 13:16:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 28 Oct 2013 17:16 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382924039.99038.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <526DB0C8.4040604@psubs.org> <1382924039.99038.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1VaqRR-3LT7my0@fwd15.t-online.de> Searching for Seadoo Scooter. Purchase one cut the kort nozzle off and scrapp the rest. The swiming aid device of the serie and damage units are below 50 USD.. http://www.pbsboatstore.com/sea-doo.htm http://www.ebay.de/itm/SeaDoo-Supercharged-Tauchscooter-Tauchen-Tauchsouter-/190947133334?pt=Tauchzubeh%C3%B6r&hash=item2c75560796 vbr carsten "Joe Perkel" schrieb: Jon, The short answer is I dont know. But look at that Dutchman and his simplistic ingenuity. Thats what Im hoping for out of this group as far as materials and processes. Im ready to draw up whatever the result. Consider that there are intrepid builders of all sorts of things worldwide. Hovercrafters build large scale ducts for thier craft as a example. I'll take a look there tomorrow. How about half a kort??? A plug of some kind (construction grade foam perhaps?) to build up a FRP shell over then mate two halves Revelle model style??? Can this shape be hot wired?? What to use as a guide? I have ideas and questions, but I need the shop wizards of the world to come up with the process. As for The other things, Im ready and willing. I like the thruster because with my family and work time constraints, its not too much to chew on. I can commit to small projects for now, bigger later as time goes on. What would you like to see done apart from the thrusters? Joe From: Jon Wallace ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 12:33:12 AM What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in the operational experience given that the motors are operating very slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 liter engine under the hood does it? Like Vance, I don't want to rain on the parade and I do "get it" that the challenge of coming up with a "home-built" alternative can be rewarding. I just think that production cost will be the determining factor on practical use. Like going from T-Rex back to minn-kota, I can't help but wonder if the ultimate conclusion will turn out to be that the stock minn-kota's are good enough for 99.99% of our applications. I can think of many things that your CAD experience could offer to the group if you are interested in providing some designs. For example the K350 plan modifications that have been talked about by a few people. We could really use help in that area. Jon On 10/27/2013 6:20 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: Alec, I've gone round and round for the past two weeks in depth on the issues of propulsion and have come full circle back to the trolling motors. I was on hiatus for the discussion mentioned by Vance ref contact with the manufacturer as I would have remembered that. So, I'm with you on the prop and nozzle. While the 101's may indeed have plenty of guts for the job as is, the Kort data shows a 30% improvement in Bollard thrust at low speeds for any given prop diameter. That and the added benefit of protecting the prop, are significant enough reasons to forge ahead. This is actually good news, less work by not mucking around with the guts of the motor. You guys are the builders with recent hands on, I'm behind in the trial and error business because I cant get started tinkering yet. But as you well know, I developed CAD capability for this purpose only, so time to put it to real use. Where I need help is deciding on materials and manufacturing processes. I can give you guys the cutting files needed to whittle a Kort out of a block of solid titanium, but that would not be practical. That's my limitation and where hands on experience counts. Now these nozzles are reverse foils with coordinates in percent of length. I can generate a NACA 4415 on my airfoil generator and transfer that to the model. I can give us accurate 3d models and eventually CNC cutting files for whatever the group wants on these Minn Kotas, nozzles and attachment hardware. I can do both Nozzles, Marin 19A, and or 37, with the latter being optimized bi-directionally. Finding something off the shelf would be ideal, but I suspect given the nature of the business and the quote I recieved it would likely prove problematic. You need a new square tip prop to optimize the duct. I've had custom props made for my boat in the past, so that should not prove insurmountable. I should be able to do the prop as well. Can we post pictures on this forum?, I forget. It would be helpful to point things out. If I could post pictures of the various exploded diagrams, I can point to where I want dimensions with red arrows. Eventually, I'll start a web-page. So for now, I need some detail on the shaft and prop as is., what have you done with that washer and where it is in the drive, as well as any other modifications. I think this is a decent group effort project, and one that can pay dividends in the end. Joe -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 13:02:42 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 10:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Exterior HP tanks and weights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1382979762.37253.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Scott, ? The light ship condition is common to the k-350 as designed, and approximate 400 lbs as you well know. How Ive been thinking to contend with that is to essentially re-think the standard design from the "outside in" leaving the core hull, pods, and frame assemblies as is. This in case I aquire a project as opposed to starting?from scratch when the time comes. ? If you notice the big dogs, Alvin, Shinkai, Mir, Nautile, etc.??They share some common elements such as the pressure hull being a modular component riding within an exostructure. It occurs to me that the K-350 can do the same. I'm envisioning an I-beam sled under the hull on which the whole works simply sits on top of with a lighter external structure with FRP panels?to hide all the goodies, HP air and soft tanks included. ? If all this displacement swings the weight problem the other way, well that remains to be seen. Alecs trawler floats may come in handy there. ? Joe ________________________________ From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Exterior HP tanks and weights My first time in the water was discovering the weight needed. Once I knew that then I attached it to the landing skids and the drop weights. I also have a storeage compartment in the sub that allows up to about 200lbs, but that is mostly reserved for salt water trade off ballast from freash water. I calculated the scuba tanks moving to the out side to move a negative 84 lbs interior to close to neutral when moved to the outside so I need to ad another 84 lbs to compensate. Most of the passenger trim for me is done with the VBT. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Scott, ? I'm locating the HP's on the exterior for several reasons, but of course anytime you move something to the exterior you increase the displacement and therefore the amount of weight required to submerge the vessel. ? Adding or subtracting exterior weights is fine prior to launch, but a real pain once you're in the water.? It's not always easy to add interior weights either when the sub is in the water.? I still have to come up with a way to conveniently stow and secure up to 250 lb of lead inside to compensate for different size pilots/passengers or diving with no passenger. ? "Sub Design: A Study in Trade-Offs" ? Jim??? -----Original Message----- From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 8:47 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Joe, Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike.? My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. Hank ________________________________ From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad ________________________________ From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand.? When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated).? The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater.? True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost?? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Vbra676539 at AOL.com Mon Oct 28 13:27:42 2013 From: Vbra676539 at AOL.com (Vance Bradley) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 13:27:42 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <8D0A2184486201B-1A30-44BF@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> References: <1382960502.5775.YahooMailIosMobile@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0A1FA485ABC99-1A30-217B@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> <1382977458.20014.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0A2184486201B-1A30-44BF@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <011B8C43-7428-4425-969A-F0FBB669895A@AOL.com> The deepworkers have 120 volts in each pod. Curasub has 4 pods, two of each center joined by a depth capable bulkhead. Outwardly it looks like 2 pods, but mechanically is not. 120 volts for lighting, 240 for propulsion and hydraulics. More or less. 240 volts allows for smaller motors. The newt-screw weighs almost 50#. I'd hate to think what it would be like at 366 volts. About the same as a 30 gallon trash can, maybe? Or a K350 pressure hull? Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 28, 2013, at 1:14 PM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: > Joe, > Eight 12v batteries would just yield nominal 96 volts. The configurations available change when you're connecting lithium batteries, so I'm not sure how they're getting the high DC voltages. I've wondered the same thing, but haven't yet asked those in the group who have expertise in DC systems. We commonly use inverters to convert 12v battery output to 120v AC, so using transformers seems reasonable. > Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Perkel > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 11:24 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > Jim, > > On attachment I can use suggestions from the group. But, I am envisioning a concentric ring surrounding the outer housing with a set screw or two. The supports come off of this ring and are supported on both ends by countersunk screws. All of this stuff made of the same ABS plastic exept the hardware. > > On the Nuytco thruster, ... 4.5 hp turning a 12.1" propeller with 7.5" pitch @ 1200 RPM will push a 6,000 lb submersible @ 4.27 kts, So,... if we can enclose a 4.5 hp motor in a #6 Sch 40 pipe and turn that prop @ 1200 rpm, we can mimic this thruster. The problem is feeding the input voltage. > > So my question then is, How is Curasub feeding those 200 - 400 vdc thrusters? Do 8 batteries connected in series give you 200 v? Or is there some type of step up transformer in play here? I am unclear on how this works. > > Joe > > From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" > To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 9:39 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > Joe, > > Another company that will give you quick quotes on printing a 3D object in a variety of materials is http://www.shapeways.com/. > > The Kort nozzle (the ring itself) doesn't necessarily have to be printed in one piece; it could be printed in two or three segments of the circle and joined together. What material do you plan to use for the supports, and how do you plan to attach them to the motor housing? The nozzle and the supports don't have to be of the same material, and printing the nozzle doesn't mean you have to print the supports. Lots of options to consider. > > There are services around such as http://www.lazerdesign.com/ that can do a 3D scan on an existing object and save a lot of CAD work. You can also find desktop 3D scanners for sale such as www.makerbot.com/Digitizer. > > Just for fun, take a look at Nuytco's MK-2 thruster: http://nuytco.com/products/nmt12-mk2-thruster/ > > Have fun, > Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Perkel > To: personal_submersibles > Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 6:42 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx > > Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > From: Marc de Piolenc ; > To: ; > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM > > Never thought much about doing it at small scale. > > I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel > and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had > the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the > master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some > suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. > > 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy > available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital > results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another > prototype is very quick. > > Marc > > On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > > > Joe > > > > Sent from my overpriced > > iPhone > > > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > > > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: > >> > >> Prop matched to the shroud > >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle > >> Motor matched to the resulting prop > >> > >> Marc > >> > >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > >>> > >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think > >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect > >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not > >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos > >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in > >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very > >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The > >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, > >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the > >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no > >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 > >>> liter engine under the hood does it? > >> -- > >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Mon Oct 28 13:28:50 2013 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 13:28:50 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382978629.4111.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382970539.98318.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382971956.24910.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0A205FDC814D1-1A30-2ED9@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> <1382978629.4111.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sounds like David has just saved me the work of taking a 101 apart and measuring it, thanks! As for the 101 prop size, it's 11" diameter. Before you go off spending $760 on a nozzle, you might want to look up these folks: http://www.gavinscooters.com/ I can't help notice Emile used a Gavin, and it looks like Gavin Scooters, Inc. is right in your neighborhood. Best, Alec On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > David, > > Thats spectacular, thanks! > > Joe > > *From:* David Colombo > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 12:12 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > Hey Joe, > I will send you my cad files on the Minkota 101 Saltwater. I have > measured my new 101s and weed 2 prop. I have also worked out the Marin 37 > Kort nozzel design and attachment to the thruster for use on the > SeaQuestor project. I will be most likely sending it to my fiberglass > fabricator who will cut the assembly in foam on their 5 axis cnc, ready > for a fiberglass overlay. > > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > http://www.seaquestor.com/ > > > > On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:03 AM, wrote: > > Joe, > Since you asked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_urethanes > Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Perkel > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 9:54 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle only in ABS > plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting for prop clearance is > $760. This is using FDM process. > > Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast urethane? Dontwant it anyway!!! > > I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop for a 4" > motor in order to get the quote exact. > > Joe > > *From:* hank pronk > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > Scott, > I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones. They could go > outside on a peg so to speak. The only problem is you want them at the > bottom of the sub. That means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet. > Maybe a slide system. I thought the same thing to put the air outside, > that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness. :-) > Hank > > *From:* swaters > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say > adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the > floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp > air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > hank pronk wrote: > Joe, > Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for > a k sub or alike. My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. > Hank > > *From:* Joe Perkel > *To:* "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" > *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while > waiting to take my daughter to school,.. > http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx > > Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the > real world. > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > *From: *Marc de Piolenc ; *To: *< > personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; *Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group > Help Request *Sent: *Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM > Never thought much about doing it at small scale. > > I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's > wheel > and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had > the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the > master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some > suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. > > 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy > available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital > results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another > prototype is very quick. > > Marc > > On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > > > Joe > > > > Sent from my overpriced > > iPhone > > > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc > wrote: > > > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A > MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it > won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just > put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a > shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! > Key ingredients for success: > >> > >> Prop matched to the shroud > >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle > >> Motor matched to the resulting prop > >> > >> Marc > >> > >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > >>> > >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I > think > >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect > >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not > >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater > videos > >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference > in > >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very > >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The > >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want > underwater. True, > >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the > >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no > >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or > 5.4 > >>> liter engine under the hood does it? > >> -- > >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: > http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): > http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): > http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: > http://massflow.archivale.com/_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles > mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Mon Oct 28 13:30:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 28 Oct 2013 17:30 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <256E9DCB-11F2-4BC8-9474-F959B84A6541@yahoo.com> References: <1382876973.64200.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382912430.33655.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <526DB0C8.4040604@psubs.org> <526E0AF4.60709@archivale.com> <256E9DCB-11F2-4BC8-9474-F959B84A6541@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1VaqfI-4PiGGm0@fwd09.t-online.de> Go in a big shop for garden and flours. Looking fo the right size flower -pod made from platic. The rest is a foam and filler job for the positive plug. http://www.hagebau.de/Garten-und-Freizeit/Pflanzen/Pflanzkaesten-und-kuebel/Blumentopf-Fiore-Alessia-terrakotta--22-cm/AN4008419055624-sh3391917sp4008419055624 vbr Carsten "Joe Perkel" schrieb: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > > > Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: > > > > Prop matched to the shroud > > Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle > > Motor matched to the resulting prop > > > > Marc > > > > On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > >> > >> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think > >> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect > >> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not > >> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos > >> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in > >> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very > >> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The > >> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, > >> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the > >> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no > >> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 > >> liter engine under the hood does it? > > -- > > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 13:32:02 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 10:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <011B8C43-7428-4425-969A-F0FBB669895A@AOL.com> References: <1382960502.5775.YahooMailIosMobile@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0A1FA485ABC99-1A30-217B@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> <1382977458.20014.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0A2184486201B-1A30-44BF@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> <011B8C43-7428-4425-969A-F0FBB669895A@AOL.com> Message-ID: <1382981522.29960.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Yep, Those Stinkin Minn Kotas kind of wear on ya!! :) ? Joe ________________________________ From: Vance Bradley To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request The deepworkers have 120 volts in each pod. Curasub has 4 pods, two of each center joined by a depth capable bulkhead. Outwardly it looks like 2 pods, but mechanically is not. 120 volts for lighting, 240 for propulsion and hydraulics. More or less. 240 volts allows for smaller motors. The newt-screw weighs almost 50#. I'd hate to think what it would be like at 366 volts. About the same as a 30 gallon trash can, maybe? Or a K350 pressure hull? Vance Sent from my iPhone On Oct 28, 2013, at 1:14 PM, jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Joe, >Eight 12v batteries would just yield nominal 96 volts.? The configurations available change when you're connecting lithium batteries, so I'm not sure?how they're getting the high DC?voltages.??I've wondered the same thing, but haven't yet asked?those in the group who have expertise in DC systems.? We commonly use inverters to convert 12v battery?output to 120v AC, so using transformers seems reasonable. >Jim? >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe Perkel >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 11:24 am >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > >Jim, >? >On attachment I can use suggestions from the group. But, I am envisioning a concentric ring surrounding the outer housing with a set screw or two. The supports come off of this ring?and are?supported on both ends by countersunk screws. All of this stuff made of the same ABS plastic exept the hardware. >? >On the Nuytco thruster, ... 4.5 hp turning a 12.1" propeller with 7.5" pitch?@ 1200 RPM will push a 6,000 lb submersible @ 4.27 kts, So,... if we can enclose a??4.5 hp motor in a #6 Sch 40 pipe and turn that prop @ 1200 rpm, we can mimic this thruster. The problem is feeding the input voltage. >? >So my question then is, How is Curasub feeding those 200 - 400 vdc thrusters? Do 8 batteries connected in series give you 200 v? Or is there some type of step up transformer in play here? I am unclear on how this works. >? >Joe > > > >________________________________ >From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 9:39 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > > >Joe, >? >Another company that will give you quick quotes on printing a 3D object in?a variety of materials?is http://www.shapeways.com/.? >? >The Kort nozzle (the ring itself) doesn't necessarily have to be printed in one piece; it could be printed in two or three segments of the circle and joined together.? What material do you plan to use for the supports, and how do you plan to attach them to the motor housing?? The nozzle and the supports don't have to be of the same material, and printing the nozzle doesn't mean you have to print the supports.? Lots of options to consider. >? >There are services around such as http://www.lazerdesign.com/ ?that can do a 3D scan on an existing object and save a lot of CAD work.??You can also find desktop 3D scanners for sale?such as www.makerbot.com/Digitizer. >? >Just for fun, take a look at Nuytco's MK-2 thruster:? http://nuytco.com/products/nmt12-mk2-thruster/ >? >Have fun, >Jim >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe Perkel >To: personal_submersibles >Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 6:42 am >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > >I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx > >Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > >________________________________ >From: Marc de Piolenc ; >To: ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM > > >Never thought much about doing it at small scale. > >I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel >and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had >the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the >master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some >suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. > >3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy >available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital >results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another >prototype is very quick. > >Marc > >On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from my overpriced >> iPhone >> >> On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: >> >>> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >>> >>> Prop matched to the shroud >>> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >>> Motor matched to the resulting prop >>> >>> Marc >>> >>> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>>> >>>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>>> reaching beyond a thousand.? When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated).? The >>>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater.? True, >>>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>>> cost?? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>>> liter engine under the hood does it? >>> -- >>> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >>> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >>> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >>> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >>> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >> > >-- >Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jon.wallace at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 13:32:24 2013 From: jon.wallace at yahoo.com (Jon Wallace) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 10:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kort Nozzle In-Reply-To: <1382978348.66862.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382981544.72088.YahooMailBasic@web140903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Sounds good...we'll put them under our design section for general download. Will your software produce some jpg or png renderings that will show the finished product as well? Jon -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 10/28/13, Joe Perkel wrote: Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kort Nozzle To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Date: Monday, October 28, 2013, 12:39 PM Jon, ? The geometry is not in question if one uses the 3d printer (or some other machine process)?to form the nozzle, it will be a perfect foil for that $760. I still need those dimensions to finalize a kort design for anyone who wants one. When thats done, I'll forward you the CAD files needed so members can download from the PSUB site to submit to a vendor of choice. ? The kort nozzle itself is simple to do CAD wise, its a revolve command of the foil section around the axis. Im working on the supports today. ? As for other projects for me, Ill look and see where, what, and when I can contribute depending on what ideas are thrown about and viable. All?of this helps me when it comes time to do my own build. ? Joe From: Jon Wallace To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 11:16 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Kort Nozzle Hi Joe, There are a number of enhancements that have been discussed by members building K-350's.? We'd have to collect those and see what you were comfortable with committing to.? Scott Waters had a list of enhancements/changes that he recommended as part of his presentation in Islamorada.? He can probably communicate those or I can look them up from his slides.? James Frankland is another person whom had suggestions for vessel improvements.? I'll see if I can get a list together and then you can decide if you want to invest time in them.? In regards to the kort nozzle, I believe the design geometry required to produce the thrust enhancement that has been discussed in this thread will not survive a hand lapped FRP approach.? Like an airfoil, any deviation from the design will reduce efficiency.? Enough deviation and you've spent a lot of time and money on nothing more than a glorified prop guard.? It would make sense to include as part of the kort project some means of testing the efficiency of the actual product so we could determine the effectiveness of various production methods. Jon On 10/27/2013 9:33 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: Jon, The short answer is I dont know. But look at that Dutchman and his simplistic ingenuity. Thats what Im hoping for out of this group as far as materials and processes. Im ready to draw up whatever the result. Consider that there are intrepid builders of all sorts of things worldwide. Hovercrafters build large scale ducts for thier craft as a example. I'll take a look there tomorrow. ? How about half a kort??? A plug of some kind (construction grade?foam perhaps?)?to build up a FRP shell over then mate two halves?Revelle model style??? Can this shape be hot wired?? What to use as a guide? I have ideas and questions, but I need the shop wizards of the world to come up with the process. ? As for The other things, Im ready and willing. I like the thruster because with my family and work?time constraints, its not too much to chew on. I can commit to small projects for now, bigger later as time goes on. ? What would you like to see done apart from the thrusters? ? Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Mon Oct 28 13:53:20 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 10:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382979924.78542.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382970539.98318.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382971956.24910.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382976218.11823.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1382979924.78542.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1382982800.39944.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, sorry 10.5in From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 11:05:24 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hank, ? The Minn Kota prop is really that big? Or is that Gamma? ? Joe From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 12:03 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Joe, My prop is 13.5 in dia, it is severy rears old so may have some material lost from rubbing etc. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 8:52:36 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle only in ABS plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting for prop clearance is $760. This is using FDM process. ? Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast urethane? Dont want it anyway!!! ? I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop for a 4" motor in order to get the quote exact. ? Joe From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Scott, I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones.? They could go outside on a peg so to speak.? The only problem is you want them at the bottom of the sub.? That means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet.? Maybe a slide system.??? I thought the same thing to put the air outside, that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness.? :-) Hank From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphonehank pronk wrote: Joe, Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike.? My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand.? When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated).? The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater.? True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost?? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 14:10:49 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 11:10:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1382983849.93163.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Alec,

Don't count it out just yet, I went to Gavin via the link you provided and had an epiphany! Note well the inside surface vs the outside surface of that Kort nozzle!!

The model I quoted was solid material!!

I know what I'm doing tonight!

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Mon Oct 28 14:20:07 2013 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 14:20:07 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382983849.93163.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382983849.93163.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yep. Also, I would avoid the set screw idea. Just make a cylinder that hugs the motor can but has a lengthwise slit, and screws to close that gap. The set screws will initiate a nuisance rust point on the can, and a closed cylinder will hold tighter in any case. On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Alec, > > Don't count it out just yet, I went to Gavin via the link you provided and > had an epiphany! Note well the inside surface vs the outside surface of > that Kort nozzle!! > > The model I quoted was solid material!! > > I know what I'm doing tonight! > > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > ------------------------------ > * From: * Alec Smyth ; > * To: * Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; > * Subject: * Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > * Sent: * Mon, Oct 28, 2013 5:28:50 PM > > Sounds like David has just saved me the work of taking a 101 apart and > measuring it, thanks! As for the 101 prop size, it's 11" diameter. Before > you go off spending $760 on a nozzle, you might want to look up these > folks: http://www.gavinscooters.com/ I can't help notice Emile used a > Gavin, and it looks like Gavin Scooters, Inc. is right in your neighborhood. > > Best, > > Alec > > > On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >> David, >> >> Thats spectacular, thanks! >> >> Joe >> >> *From:* David Colombo >> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 12:12 PM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> >> Hey Joe, >> I will send you my cad files on the Minkota 101 Saltwater. I have >> measured my new 101s and weed 2 prop. I have also worked out the Marin 37 >> Kort nozzel design and attachment to the thruster for use on the >> SeaQuestor project. I will be most likely sending it to my fiberglass >> fabricator who will cut the assembly in foam on their 5 axis cnc, ready >> for a fiberglass overlay. >> >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> http://www.seaquestor.com/ >> >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:03 AM, wrote: >> >> Joe, >> Since you asked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_urethanes >> Jim >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joe Perkel >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 9:54 am >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> >> Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle only in ABS >> plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting for prop clearance is >> $760. This is using FDM process. >> >> Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast urethane? Dontwant it anyway!!! >> >> I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop for a 4" >> motor in order to get the quote exact. >> >> Joe >> >> *From:* hank pronk >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> >> Scott, >> I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones. They could go >> outside on a peg so to speak. The only problem is you want them at the >> bottom of the sub. That means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet. >> Maybe a slide system. I thought the same thing to put the air outside, >> that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness. :-) >> Hank >> >> *From:* swaters >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say >> adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the >> floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp >> air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> hank pronk wrote: >> Joe, >> Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for >> a k sub or alike. My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. >> Hank >> >> *From:* Joe Perkel >> *To:* "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" >> >> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while >> waiting to take my daughter to school,.. >> http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx >> >> Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the >> real world. >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> *From: *Marc de Piolenc ; *To: *< >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; *Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group >> Help Request *Sent: *Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM >> Never thought much about doing it at small scale. >> >> I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's >> wheel >> and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had >> the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the >> master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some >> suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. >> >> 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy >> available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital >> results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another >> prototype is very quick. >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" >> material? >> > >> > Joe >> > >> > Sent from my overpriced >> > iPhone >> > >> > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc >> wrote: >> > >> >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A >> MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it >> won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just >> put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a >> shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! >> Key ingredients for success: >> >> >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> >> >> Marc >> >> >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >> >>> >> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I >> think >> >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >> >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if >> not >> >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater >> videos >> >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any >> difference in >> >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >> >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The >> >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want >> underwater. True, >> >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >> >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >> >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or >> 5.4 >> >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> >> -- >> >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: >> http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): >> http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): >> http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: >> http://massflow.archivale.com/_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles >> mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Mon Oct 28 14:22:44 2013 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 08:22:44 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Exterior HP tanks and weights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Scott, what size HP tanks are you using, 80,s? Rick From: swaters Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:29 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Exterior HP tanks and weights My first time in the water was discovering the weight needed. Once I knew that then I attached it to the landing skids and the drop weights. I also have a storeage compartment in the sub that allows up to about 200lbs, but that is mostly reserved for salt water trade off ballast from freash water. I calculated the scuba tanks moving to the out side to move a negative 84 lbs interior to close to neutral when moved to the outside so I need to ad another 84 lbs to compensate. Most of the passenger trim for me is done with the VBT. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Scott, I'm locating the HP's on the exterior for several reasons, but of course anytime you move something to the exterior you increase the displacement and therefore the amount of weight required to submerge the vessel. Adding or subtracting exterior weights is fine prior to launch, but a real pain once you're in the water. It's not always easy to add interior weights either when the sub is in the water. I still have to come up with a way to conveniently stow and secure up to 250 lb of lead inside to compensate for different size pilots/passengers or diving with no passenger. "Sub Design: A Study in Trade-Offs" Jim -----Original Message----- From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 8:47 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Joe, Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike. My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >-- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalogPolymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblogTranslations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolencDucted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From swaters at waters-ks.com Mon Oct 28 14:28:29 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 13:28:29 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Exterior HP tanks and weights Message-ID: 80cf Aluminum. It would probably be smarter to use steel. Thanks, Scott Sent from my U.S. Cellular? SmartphoneLand N Sea wrote:Scott, what size HP tanks are you using, 80,s? ? Rick ? From: swaters Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:29 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Exterior HP tanks and weights ? My first time in the water was discovering the weight needed. Once I knew that then I attached it to the landing skids and the drop weights. I also have a storeage compartment in the sub that allows up to about 200lbs, but that is mostly reserved for salt water trade off ballast from freash water. I calculated the scuba tanks moving to the out side to move a negative 84 lbs interior to close to neutral when moved to the outside so I need to ad another 84 lbs to compensate. Most of the passenger trim for me is done with the VBT. Thanks, Scott Waters ? ? ? ? Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone jimtoddpsub at aol.com wrote: Scott, ? I'm locating the HP's on the exterior for several reasons, but of course anytime you move something to the exterior you increase the displacement and therefore the amount of weight required to submerge the vessel. ? Adding or subtracting exterior weights is fine prior to launch, but a real pain once you're in the water.? It's not always easy to add interior weights either when the sub is in the water.? I still have to come up with a way to conveniently stow and secure up to 250 lb of lead inside to compensate for different size pilots/passengers or diving with no passenger. ? "Sub Design: A Study in Trade-Offs" ? Jim?? -----Original Message----- From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 8:47 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. Thanks, Scott Waters ? ? ? ? ? Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Joe, Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike.? My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. Hank ? From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand.? When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated).? The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater.? True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost?? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >-- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalogPolymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblogTranslations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolencDucted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 14:48:54 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 14:48:54 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: References: <1382983849.93163.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ok, hose clamp style got it. I have to learn a bit about ABS properties. I sure could spit out all manner of goodies with my Own machine. Instrument panels etc Sent from my overpriced iPhone On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Alec Smyth wrote: > Yep. Also, I would avoid the set screw idea. Just make a cylinder that hugs the motor can but has a lengthwise slit, and screws to close that gap. The set screws will initiate a nuisance rust point on the can, and a closed cylinder will hold tighter in any case. > > > > On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> >> Alec, >> >> Don't count it out just yet, I went to Gavin via the link you provided and had an epiphany! Note well the inside surface vs the outside surface of that Kort nozzle!! >> >> The model I quoted was solid material!! >> >> I know what I'm doing tonight! >> >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> >> From: Alec Smyth ; >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 5:28:50 PM >> >> Sounds like David has just saved me the work of taking a 101 apart and measuring it, thanks! As for the 101 prop size, it's 11" diameter. Before you go off spending $760 on a nozzle, you might want to look up these folks: http://www.gavinscooters.com/ I can't help notice Emile used a Gavin, and it looks like Gavin Scooters, Inc. is right in your neighborhood. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >>> David, >>> >>> Thats spectacular, thanks! >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> From: David Colombo >>> >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 12:12 PM >>> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >>> >>> Hey Joe, >>> I will send you my cad files on the Minkota 101 Saltwater. I have measured my new 101s and weed 2 prop. I have also worked out the Marin 37 Kort nozzel design and attachment to the thruster for use on the SeaQuestor project. I will be most likely sending it to my fiberglass fabricator who will cut the assembly in foam on their 5 axis cnc, ready for a fiberglass overlay. >>> >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> David Colombo >>> >>> 804 College Ave >>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>> (707) 536-1424 >>> http://www.seaquestor.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:03 AM, wrote: >>> Joe, >>> Since you asked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_urethanes >>> Jim >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Joe Perkel >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 9:54 am >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >>> >>> Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle only in ABS plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting for prop clearance is $760. This is using FDM process. >>> >>> Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast urethane? Dont want it anyway!!! >>> >>> I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop for a 4" motor in order to get the quote exact. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> From: hank pronk >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >>> >>> Scott, >>> I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones. They could go outside on a peg so to speak. The only problem is you want them at the bottom of the sub. That means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet. Maybe a slide system. I thought the same thing to put the air outside, that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness. :-) >>> Hank >>> >>> From: swaters >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >>> Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. >>> Thanks, >>> Scott Waters >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>> hank pronk wrote: >>> Joe, >>> Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike. My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. >>> Hank >>> >>> From: Joe Perkel >>> To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" >>> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >>> I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx >>> >>> Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>> From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM >>> Never thought much about doing it at small scale. >>> >>> I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel >>> and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had >>> the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the >>> master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some >>> suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. >>> >>> 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy >>> available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital >>> results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another >>> prototype is very quick. >>> >>> Marc >>> >>> On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >>> > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? >>> > >>> > Joe >>> > >>> > Sent from my overpriced >>> > iPhone >>> > >>> > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: >>> > >>> >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >>> >> >>> >> Prop matched to the shroud >>> >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >>> >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >>> >> >>> >> Marc >>> >> >>> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The >>> >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, >>> >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >>> >> -- >>> >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >>> >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >>> >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >>> >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >>> >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Mon Oct 28 15:19:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 28 Oct 2013 19:19 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382983849.93163.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382983849.93163.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1VasMn-3Whvii0@fwd20.t-online.de> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Brand-New-300W-Motor-Powered-Sea-Scooter-Underwater-propeller-Diving-Assistant/336556698.html Inside Diameter of the Kortnozzle is 250mm or 9,84 something inch. Protection grid forward and aft are just fix with clips. vbr Carsten Alec, Don't count it out just yet, I went to Gavin via the link you provided and had an epiphany! Note well the inside surface vs the outside surface of that Kort nozzle!! The model I quoted was solid material!! I know what I'm doing tonight! Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Alec Smyth ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 5:28:50 PM Sounds like David has just saved me the work of taking a 101 apart and measuring it, thanks! As for the 101 prop size, it's 11" diameter. Before you go off spending $760 on a nozzle, you might want to look up these folks: http://www.gavinscooters.com/ I can't help notice Emile used a Gavin, and it looks like Gavin Scooters, Inc. is right in your neighborhood. Best, Alec On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: David, Thats spectacular, thanks! Joe From: David Colombo To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 12:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hey Joe, I will send you my cad files on the Minkota 101 Saltwater. I have measured my new 101s and weed 2 prop. I have also worked out the Marin 37 Kort nozzel design and attachment to the thruster for use on the SeaQuestor project. I will be most likely sending it to my fiberglass fabricator who will cut the assembly in foam on their 5 axis cnc, ready for a fiberglass overlay. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 http://www.seaquestor.com/ On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:03 AM, wrote: Joe, Since you asked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_urethanes Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 9:54 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle only in ABS plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting for prop clearance is $760. This is using FDM process. Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast urethane? Dont want it anyway!!! I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop for a 4" motor in order to get the quote exact. Joe From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Scott, I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones. They could go outside on a peg so to speak. The only problem is you want them at the bottom of the sub. That means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet. Maybe a slide system. I thought the same thing to put the air outside, that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness. :-) Hank From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Joe, Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike. My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 15:35:37 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 08:35:37 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1VaqfI-4PiGGm0@fwd09.t-online.de> References: <1382876973.64200.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1382912430.33655.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <526DB0C8.4040604@psubs.org> <526E0AF4.60709@archivale.com> <256E9DCB-11F2-4BC8-9474-F959B84A6541@yahoo.com> <1VaqfI-4PiGGm0@fwd09.t-online.de> Message-ID: That's how I did it Carsten, except I looked for a bucket. In hindsight there is more variety in plant pots. I fibreglassed around a portion of the bucket & built it up to the right shape, but an easier way to do it would be to buy 2 buckets / pots, one to fit inside the other to form a mold. Cut the bottoms off the Buckets & seal them to a base. Then pour in resin & throw some fibreglass in for strength. Form the edges later. Alan Sent from my iPad On 29/10/2013, at 6:30 AM, " " wrote: > Go in a big shop for garden and flours. > Looking fo the right size flower -pod made from platic. > The rest is a foam and filler job for the positive plug. > > http://www.hagebau.de/Garten-und-Freizeit/Pflanzen/Pflanzkaesten-und-kuebel/Blumentopf-Fiore-Alessia-terrakotta--22-cm/AN4008419055624-sh3391917sp4008419055624 > > vbr Carsten > > "Joe Perkel" schrieb: > > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > > > Joe > > > > Sent from my overpriced > > iPhone > > > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > > > > > Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: > > > > > > Prop matched to the shroud > > > Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle > > > Motor matched to the resulting prop > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > > >> > > >> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think > > >> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect > > >> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not > > >> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos > > >> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in > > >> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very > > >> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The > > >> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, > > >> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the > > >> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no > > >> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 > > >> liter engine under the hood does it? > > > -- > > > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > > > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > > > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > > > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > > > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -- > > Carsten Standfu? > Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik > Heinrich Reck Str.12A > 18211 Admannshagen > > 0172 8464 420 > WWW.Euronaut.org > Carsten at euronaut.org > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 16:08:48 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 13:08:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1VasMn-3Whvii0@fwd20.t-online.de> References: <1382983849.93163.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VasMn-3Whvii0@fwd20.t-online.de> Message-ID: <1382990928.59426.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Yes Carsten, very hopeful moneywise! ? But, I wonder if this is a shrouded/ducted prop as opposed to an accurate Kort Nozzle. But, perhaps it may not matter in the end if all one wants is a prop guard. ? I am going to see what different configurations of the Kort Nozzle bring in terms of material cost. ? Joe ________________________________ From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:19 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request ?http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Brand-New-300W-Motor-Powered-Sea-Scooter-Underwater-propeller-Diving-Assistant/336556698.html Inside Diameter of the Kortnozzle is 250mm or 9,84 something inch. Protection grid forward and aft are just fix with clips. vbr Carsten Alec, > >Don't count it out just yet, I went to Gavin via the link you provided and had an epiphany! Note well the inside surface vs the outside surface of that Kort nozzle!! > >The model I quoted was solid material!! > >I know what I'm doing tonight! > >Joe > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > >________________________________ >From: Alec Smyth ; >To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 5:28:50 PM > > >Sounds like David has just saved me the work of taking a 101 apart and measuring it, thanks! As for the 101 prop size, it's 11" diameter. Before you go off spending $760 on a nozzle, you might want to look up these folks:?http://www.gavinscooters.com/?I can't help notice Emile used a Gavin, and it looks like Gavin Scooters, Inc. is right in your neighborhood. > > >Best, > >Alec > > > >On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >David, >>? >>Thats spectacular, thanks! >>? >>Joe >> >> >>From: David Colombo >> >>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 12:12 PM >> >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> >> >> >>Hey Joe, >>I will send you my cad files on the Minkota 101 Saltwater. I have measured my new 101s and weed 2 prop.? I have also worked out the Marin 37 Kort nozzel design and attachment to the thruster for use on the SeaQuestor project. I will be most likely sending it to my fiberglass fabricator who will cut the assembly in foam? on their 5 axis cnc, ready for a fiberglass overlay. >> >> >> >> >>Best Regards, >>David Colombo >> >>804 College Ave >>Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>(707) 536-1424 >>http://www.seaquestor.com/ >> >> >> >> >> >>On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:03 AM, wrote: >> >>Joe, >>>Since you asked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_urethanes >>>Jim >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Joe Perkel >>> >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> >>>Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 9:54 am >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >>> >>> >>>Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle only in ABS plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting for prop clearance is $760. This is using FDM process. >>>? >>>Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast urethane? Dont want it anyway!!! >>>? >>>I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop for a 4" motor in order to get the quote exact. >>>? >>>Joe >>> >>> >>>From: hank pronk >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >>> >>> >>> >>>Scott, >>>I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones.? They could go outside on a peg so to speak.? The only problem is you want them at the bottom of the sub.? That means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet.? Maybe a slide system.??? I thought the same thing to put the air outside, that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness.? :-) >>>Hank >>> >>> >>>From: swaters >>>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >>> >>>Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. >>>Thanks, >>>Scott Waters >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphonehank pronk wrote: >>>Joe, >>>Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike.? My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. >>>Hank >>> >>> >>>From: Joe Perkel >>>To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" >>>Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >>> >>>I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx >>> >>>Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. >>> >>>Joe >>> >>>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>>From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM >>>Never thought much about doing it at small scale. >>> >>>I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel >>>and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had >>>the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the >>>master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some >>>suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. >>> >>>3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy >>>available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital >>>results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another >>>prototype is very quick. >>> >>>Marc >>> >>>On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >>>> How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> Sent from my overpriced >>>> iPhone >>>> >>>> On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: >>>> >>>>> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >>>>> >>>>> Prop matched to the shroud >>>>> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >>>>> Motor matched to the resulting prop >>>>> >>>>> Marc >>>>> >>>>> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>>>>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>>>>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>>>>> reaching beyond a thousand.? When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>>>>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>>>>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>>>>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated).? The >>>>>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater.? True, >>>>>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>>>>> cost?? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>>>>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>>>>> liter engine under the hood does it? >>>>> -- >>>>> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >>>>> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >>>>> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >>>>> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >>>>> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > ? -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 17:00:40 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 10:00:40 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382990928.59426.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382983849.93163.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VasMn-3Whvii0@fwd20.t-online.de> <1382990928.59426.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0556D6C2-DF51-4E28-9BCD-C6573332D8AF@yahoo.com> Joe, I designed mine as accurately as possible to dimensions I found on the net. And the pots were perfect in slope to what I needed. All you have to do is take your propeller to a plant shop & tell them you are wanting to size it for a kort nozzle for a submarine. Alan Sent from my iPad On 29/10/2013, at 9:08 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Yes Carsten, very hopeful moneywise! > > But, I wonder if this is a shrouded/ducted prop as opposed to an accurate Kort Nozzle. But, perhaps it may not matter in the end if all one wants is a prop guard. > > I am going to see what different configurations of the Kort Nozzle bring in terms of material cost. > > Joe > > From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:19 PM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Brand-New-300W-Motor-Powered-Sea-Scooter-Underwater-propeller-Diving-Assistant/336556698.html > > Inside Diameter of the Kortnozzle is 250mm or 9,84 something inch. > > Protection grid forward and aft are just fix with clips. > > vbr Carsten > > > > Alec, > > Don't count it out just yet, I went to Gavin via the link you provided and had an epiphany! Note well the inside surface vs the outside surface of that Kort nozzle!! > > The model I quoted was solid material!! > > I know what I'm doing tonight! > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > From: Alec Smyth ; > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 5:28:50 PM > > Sounds like David has just saved me the work of taking a 101 apart and measuring it, thanks! As for the 101 prop size, it's 11" diameter. Before you go off spending $760 on a nozzle, you might want to look up these folks: http://www.gavinscooters.com/ I can't help notice Emile used a Gavin, and it looks like Gavin Scooters, Inc. is right in your neighborhood. > > Best, > > Alec > > > On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > David, > > Thats spectacular, thanks! > > Joe > > From: David Colombo > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 12:12 PM > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > Hey Joe, > I will send you my cad files on the Minkota 101 Saltwater. I have measured my new 101s and weed 2 prop. I have also worked out the Marin 37 Kort nozzel design and attachment to the thruster for use on the SeaQuestor project. I will be most likely sending it to my fiberglass fabricator who will cut the assembly in foam on their 5 axis cnc, ready for a fiberglass overlay. > > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > http://www.seaquestor.com/ > > > > On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:03 AM, wrote: > Joe, > Since you asked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_urethanes > Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Perkel > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 9:54 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle only in ABS plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting for prop clearance is $760. This is using FDM process. > > Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast urethane? Dont want it anyway!!! > > I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop for a 4" motor in order to get the quote exact. > > Joe > > From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > Scott, > I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones. They could go outside on a peg so to speak. The only problem is you want them at the bottom of the sub. That means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet. Maybe a slide system. I thought the same thing to put the air outside, that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness. :-) > Hank > > From: swaters > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > hank pronk wrote: > Joe, > Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike. My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. > Hank > > From: Joe Perkel > To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx > > Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM > Never thought much about doing it at small scale. > > I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel > and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had > the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the > master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some > suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. > > 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy > available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital > results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another > prototype is very quick. > > Marc > > On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > > > Joe > > > > Sent from my overpriced > > iPhone > > > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > > > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: > >> > >> Prop matched to the shroud > >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle > >> Motor matched to the resulting prop > >> > >> Marc > >> > >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > >>> > >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think > >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect > >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not > >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos > >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in > >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very > >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The > >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, > >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the > >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no > >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 > >>> liter engine under the hood does it? > >> -- > >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -- > > Carsten Standfu? > Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik > Heinrich Reck Str.12A > 18211 Admannshagen > > 0172 8464 420 > WWW.Euronaut.org > Carsten at euronaut.org > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emile at airesearch.nl Mon Oct 28 17:17:17 2013 From: emile at airesearch.nl (Emile van Essen) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 22:17:17 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1VasMn-3Whvii0@fwd20.t-online.de> Message-ID: That is more or less a toy.. This is better: http://www.gavinscootersfl.com/Large_Pics_of_Mini_G.html Mmm the whole unit can be used plug ?n play on a sub. Regards, Emile _____ Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Verzonden: maandag 28 oktober 2013 20:19 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Brand-New-300W-Motor-Powered-Sea-Scooter-Unde rwater-propeller-Diving-Assistant/336556698.html Inside Diameter of the Kortnozzle is 250mm or 9,84 something inch. Protection grid forward and aft are just fix with clips. vbr Carsten Alec, Don't count it out just yet, I went to Gavin via the link you provided and had an epiphany! Note well the inside surface vs the outside surface of that Kort nozzle!! The model I quoted was solid material!! I know what I'm doing tonight! Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad _____ From: Alec Smyth ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 5:28:50 PM Sounds like David has just saved me the work of taking a 101 apart and measuring it, thanks! As for the 101 prop size, it's 11" diameter. Before you go off spending $760 on a nozzle, you might want to look up these folks: http://www.gavinscooters.com/ I can't help notice Emile used a Gavin, and it looks like Gavin Scooters, Inc. is right in your neighborhood. Best, Alec On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Joe Perkel > wrote: David, Thats spectacular, thanks! Joe From: David Colombo > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 12:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hey Joe, I will send you my cad files on the Minkota 101 Saltwater. I have measured my new 101s and weed 2 prop. I have also worked out the Marin 37 Kort nozzel design and attachment to the thruster for use on the SeaQuestor project. I will be most likely sending it to my fiberglass fabricator who will cut the assembly in foam on their 5 axis cnc, ready for a fiberglass overlay. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 http://www.seaquestor.com/ On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:03 AM, > wrote: Joe, Since you asked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_urethanes Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 9:54 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle only in ABS plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting for prop clearance is $760. This is using FDM process. Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast urethane? Dont want it anyway!!! I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop for a 4" motor in order to get the quote exact. Joe From: hank pronk > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Scott, I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones. They could go outside on a peg so to speak. The only problem is you want them at the bottom of the sub. That means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet. Maybe a slide system. I thought the same thing to put the air outside, that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness. :-) Hank From: swaters > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk > wrote: Joe, Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike. My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. Hank From: Joe Perkel > To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org " > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Marc de Piolenc >; To: >; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi /personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Mon Oct 28 17:17:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 28 Oct 2013 21:17 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382990928.59426.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382983849.93163.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VasMn-3Whvii0@fwd20.t-online.de> <1382990928.59426.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1VauCk-2yqzPU0@fwd19.t-online.de> Its a Kortnozzle.. "Joe Perkel" schrieb: Yes Carsten, very hopeful moneywise! But, I wonder if this is a shrouded/ducted prop as opposed to an accurate Kort Nozzle. But, perhaps it may not matter in the end if all one wants is a prop guard. I am going to see what different configurations of the Kort Nozzle bring in terms of material cost. Joe From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:19 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Brand-New-300W-Motor-Powered-Sea-Scooter-Underwater-propeller-Diving-Assistant/336556698.html Inside Diameter of the Kortnozzle is 250mm or 9,84 something inch. Protection grid forward and aft are just fix with clips. vbr Carsten Alec, Don't count it out just yet, I went to Gavin via the link you provided and had an epiphany! Note well the inside surface vs the outside surface of that Kort nozzle!! The model I quoted was solid material!! I know what I'm doing tonight! Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Alec Smyth ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 5:28:50 PM Sounds like David has just saved me the work of taking a 101 apart and measuring it, thanks! As for the 101 prop size, it's 11" diameter. Before you go off spending $760 on a nozzle, you might want to look up these folks: http://www.gavinscooters.com/ I can't help notice Emile used a Gavin, and it looks like Gavin Scooters, Inc. is right in your neighborhood. Best, Alec On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: David, Thats spectacular, thanks! Joe From: David Colombo To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 12:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hey Joe, I will send you my cad files on the Minkota 101 Saltwater. I have measured my new 101s and weed 2 prop. I have also worked out the Marin 37 Kort nozzel design and attachment to the thruster for use on the SeaQuestor project. I will be most likely sending it to my fiberglass fabricator who will cut the assembly in foam on their 5 axis cnc, ready for a fiberglass overlay. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 http://www.seaquestor.com/ On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:03 AM, wrote: Joe, Since you asked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_urethanes Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 9:54 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle only in ABS plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting for prop clearance is $760. This is using FDM process. Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast urethane? Dont want it anyway!!! I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop for a 4" motor in order to get the quote exact. Joe From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Scott, I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones. They could go outside on a peg so to speak. The only problem is you want them at the bottom of the sub. That means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet. Maybe a slide system. I thought the same thing to put the air outside, that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness. :-) Hank From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Joe, Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike. My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 17:22:23 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 17:22:23 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <0556D6C2-DF51-4E28-9BCD-C6573332D8AF@yahoo.com> References: <1382983849.93163.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VasMn-3Whvii0@fwd20.t-online.de> <1382990928.59426.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <0556D6C2-DF51-4E28-9BCD-C6573332D8AF@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Well it would seem that the Marin 19a for an 11" prop exceeds the dimensional capability of the rapid prototype making this cost prohibitive. I will produce the CAD files anyway because the shape is dead on. So they can then await an affordable process. Joe Sent from my overpriced iPhone On Oct 28, 2013, at 5:00 PM, Alan wrote: > Joe, > I designed mine as accurately as possible to dimensions I found > on the net. And the pots were perfect in slope to what I needed. > All you have to do is take your propeller to a plant shop & tell > them you are wanting to size it for a kort nozzle for a submarine. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 29/10/2013, at 9:08 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >> Yes Carsten, very hopeful moneywise! >> >> But, I wonder if this is a shrouded/ducted prop as opposed to an accurate Kort Nozzle. But, perhaps it may not matter in the end if all one wants is a prop guard. >> >> I am going to see what different configurations of the Kort Nozzle bring in terms of material cost. >> >> Joe >> >> From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:19 PM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> >> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Brand-New-300W-Motor-Powered-Sea-Scooter-Underwater-propeller-Diving-Assistant/336556698.html >> >> Inside Diameter of the Kortnozzle is 250mm or 9,84 something inch. >> >> Protection grid forward and aft are just fix with clips. >> >> vbr Carsten >> >> >> >> Alec, >> >> Don't count it out just yet, I went to Gavin via the link you provided and had an epiphany! Note well the inside surface vs the outside surface of that Kort nozzle!! >> >> The model I quoted was solid material!! >> >> I know what I'm doing tonight! >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> >> From: Alec Smyth ; >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 5:28:50 PM >> >> Sounds like David has just saved me the work of taking a 101 apart and measuring it, thanks! As for the 101 prop size, it's 11" diameter. Before you go off spending $760 on a nozzle, you might want to look up these folks: http://www.gavinscooters.com/ I can't help notice Emile used a Gavin, and it looks like Gavin Scooters, Inc. is right in your neighborhood. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> David, >> >> Thats spectacular, thanks! >> >> Joe >> >> From: David Colombo >> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 12:12 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> >> Hey Joe, >> I will send you my cad files on the Minkota 101 Saltwater. I have measured my new 101s and weed 2 prop. I have also worked out the Marin 37 Kort nozzel design and attachment to the thruster for use on the SeaQuestor project. I will be most likely sending it to my fiberglass fabricator who will cut the assembly in foam on their 5 axis cnc, ready for a fiberglass overlay. >> >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> http://www.seaquestor.com/ >> >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:03 AM, wrote: >> Joe, >> Since you asked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_urethanes >> Jim >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joe Perkel >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 9:54 am >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> >> Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle only in ABS plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting for prop clearance is $760. This is using FDM process. >> >> Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast urethane? Dont want it anyway!!! >> >> I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop for a 4" motor in order to get the quote exact. >> >> Joe >> >> From: hank pronk >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> >> Scott, >> I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones. They could go outside on a peg so to speak. The only problem is you want them at the bottom of the sub. That means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet. Maybe a slide system. I thought the same thing to put the air outside, that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness. :-) >> Hank >> >> From: swaters >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> hank pronk wrote: >> Joe, >> Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike. My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. >> Hank >> >> From: Joe Perkel >> To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" >> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx >> >> Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM >> Never thought much about doing it at small scale. >> >> I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel >> and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had >> the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the >> master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some >> suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. >> >> 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy >> available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital >> results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another >> prototype is very quick. >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? >> > >> > Joe >> > >> > Sent from my overpriced >> > iPhone >> > >> > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: >> > >> >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> >> >> Marc >> >> >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >> >>> >> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >> >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >> >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >> >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >> >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >> >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >> >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The >> >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, >> >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >> >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >> >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >> >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> >> -- >> >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Carsten Standfu? >> Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik >> Heinrich Reck Str.12A >> 18211 Admannshagen >> >> 0172 8464 420 >> WWW.Euronaut.org >> Carsten at euronaut.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Mon Oct 28 17:23:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 28 Oct 2013 21:23 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <0556D6C2-DF51-4E28-9BCD-C6573332D8AF@yahoo.com> References: <1382983849.93163.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VasMn-3Whvii0@fwd20.t-online.de> <1382990928.59426.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <0556D6C2-DF51-4E28-9BCD-C6573332D8AF@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1VauJ2-02NODI0@fwd25.t-online.de> MUahhhaaaa.. To complicate. First go in the plant shop and purchase the pots. Makle a perfect Kortnozzle from it. Than design the submarine around it.. vbr Carsten "Alan" schrieb: Joe, I designed mine as accurately as possible to dimensions I found on the net. And the pots were perfect in slope to what I needed. All you have to do is take your propeller to a plant shop & tell them you are wanting to size it for a kort nozzle for a submarine. Alan Sent from my iPad On 29/10/2013, at 9:08 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Yes Carsten, very hopeful moneywise! But, I wonder if this is a shrouded/ducted prop as opposed to an accurate Kort Nozzle. But, perhaps it may not matter in the end if all one wants is a prop guard. I am going to see what different configurations of the Kort Nozzle bring in terms of material cost. Joe From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:19 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Brand-New-300W-Motor-Powered-Sea-Scooter-Underwater-propeller-Diving-Assistant/336556698.html Inside Diameter of the Kortnozzle is 250mm or 9,84 something inch. Protection grid forward and aft are just fix with clips. vbr Carsten Alec, Don't count it out just yet, I went to Gavin via the link you provided and had an epiphany! Note well the inside surface vs the outside surface of that Kort nozzle!! The model I quoted was solid material!! I know what I'm doing tonight! Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Alec Smyth ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 5:28:50 PM Sounds like David has just saved me the work of taking a 101 apart and measuring it, thanks! As for the 101 prop size, it's 11" diameter. Before you go off spending $760 on a nozzle, you might want to look up these folks: http://www.gavinscooters.com/ I can't help notice Emile used a Gavin, and it looks like Gavin Scooters, Inc. is right in your neighborhood. Best, Alec On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: David, Thats spectacular, thanks! Joe From: David Colombo To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 12:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hey Joe, I will send you my cad files on the Minkota 101 Saltwater. I have measured my new 101s and weed 2 prop. I have also worked out the Marin 37 Kort nozzel design and attachment to the thruster for use on the SeaQuestor project. I will be most likely sending it to my fiberglass fabricator who will cut the assembly in foam on their 5 axis cnc, ready for a fiberglass overlay. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 http://www.seaquestor.com/ On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:03 AM, wrote: Joe, Since you asked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_urethanes Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 9:54 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle only in ABS plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting for prop clearance is $760. This is using FDM process. Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast urethane? Dont want it anyway!!! I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop for a 4" motor in order to get the quote exact. Joe From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Scott, I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones. They could go outside on a peg so to speak. The only problem is you want them at the bottom of the sub. That means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet. Maybe a slide system. I thought the same thing to put the air outside, that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness. :-) Hank From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Joe, Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike. My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Kort goes Euronaut.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 254835 bytes Desc: not available URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Mon Oct 28 17:40:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 28 Oct 2013 21:40 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: References: <1382983849.93163.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VasMn-3Whvii0@fwd20.t-online.de> <1382990928.59426.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <0556D6C2-DF51-4E28-9BCD-C6573332D8AF@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1VauYy-1voNBQ0@fwd02.t-online.de> Another german solution: Reinhard from Berlin makes his from stainless steel beer drums. https://www.google.de/search?q=bier+fass&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=vtZuUpdjxZC0BruFgMAK&ved=0CEoQsAQ&biw=1573&bih=861#q=bierfass+edelstahl&tbm=isch http://www.seppeler.de/index.php?id=2135 "Joe Perkel" schrieb: Well it would seem that the Marin 19a for an 11" prop exceeds the dimensional capability of the rapid prototype making this cost prohibitive. I will produce the CAD files anyway because the shape is dead on. So they can then await an affordable process. Joe Sent from my overpriced iPhone On Oct 28, 2013, at 5:00 PM, Alan wrote: Joe, I designed mine as accurately as possible to dimensions I found on the net. And the pots were perfect in slope to what I needed. All you have to do is take your propeller to a plant shop & tell them you are wanting to size it for a kort nozzle for a submarine. Alan Sent from my iPad On 29/10/2013, at 9:08 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: Yes Carsten, very hopeful moneywise! But, I wonder if this is a shrouded/ducted prop as opposed to an accurate Kort Nozzle. But, perhaps it may not matter in the end if all one wants is a prop guard. I am going to see what different configurations of the Kort Nozzle bring in terms of material cost. Joe From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:19 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Brand-New-300W-Motor-Powered-Sea-Scooter-Underwater-propeller-Diving-Assistant/336556698.html Inside Diameter of the Kortnozzle is 250mm or 9,84 something inch. Protection grid forward and aft are just fix with clips. vbr Carsten Alec, Don't count it out just yet, I went to Gavin via the link you provided and had an epiphany! Note well the inside surface vs the outside surface of that Kort nozzle!! The model I quoted was solid material!! I know what I'm doing tonight! Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Alec Smyth ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 5:28:50 PM Sounds like David has just saved me the work of taking a 101 apart and measuring it, thanks! As for the 101 prop size, it's 11" diameter. Before you go off spending $760 on a nozzle, you might want to look up these folks: http://www.gavinscooters.com/ I can't help notice Emile used a Gavin, and it looks like Gavin Scooters, Inc. is right in your neighborhood. Best, Alec On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: David, Thats spectacular, thanks! Joe From: David Colombo To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 12:12 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hey Joe, I will send you my cad files on the Minkota 101 Saltwater. I have measured my new 101s and weed 2 prop. I have also worked out the Marin 37 Kort nozzel design and attachment to the thruster for use on the SeaQuestor project. I will be most likely sending it to my fiberglass fabricator who will cut the assembly in foam on their 5 axis cnc, ready for a fiberglass overlay. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 http://www.seaquestor.com/ On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:03 AM, wrote: Joe, Since you asked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_urethanes Jim -----Original Message----- From: Joe Perkel To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 9:54 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle only in ABS plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting for prop clearance is $760. This is using FDM process. Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast urethane? Dont want it anyway!!! I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop for a 4" motor in order to get the quote exact. Joe From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Scott, I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones. They could go outside on a peg so to speak. The only problem is you want them at the bottom of the sub. That means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet. Maybe a slide system. I thought the same thing to put the air outside, that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness. :-) Hank From: swaters To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to allow alot more room on the inside. Thanks, Scott Waters Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone hank pronk wrote: Joe, Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement would be for a k sub or alike. My vote would be for a hatch closure from both sides. Hank From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek synthesizer in the real world. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Marc de Piolenc ; To: ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 10:46:58 AM Never thought much about doing it at small scale. I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a potter's wheel and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. Once I had the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold around the master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final part in some suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - the accuracy available is already better than what we would need, and if the inital results are not perfect, making changes and printing out another prototype is very quick. Marc On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out of "X" material? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of the vehicle >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined by a CNC? I think >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but I suspect >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of dollars, if not >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy underwater videos >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making any difference in >>> the operational experience given that the motors are operating very >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots (estimated). The >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we want underwater. True, >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the return on the >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of 30mph and no >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 17:46:11 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 17:46:11 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1VauJ2-02NODI0@fwd25.t-online.de> References: <1382983849.93163.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VasMn-3Whvii0@fwd20.t-online.de> <1382990928.59426.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <0556D6C2-DF51-4E28-9BCD-C6573332D8AF@yahoo.com> <1VauJ2-02NODI0@fwd25.t-online.de> Message-ID: <755B5625-17DC-407C-B5F0-51663FD1FB57@yahoo.com> Well, someone's in the Halloween spirit I think! :) Joe Sent from my overpriced iPhone On Oct 28, 2013, at 5:23 PM, " " wrote: > MUahhhaaaa.. > > To complicate. > First go in the plant shop and purchase the pots. > Makle a perfect Kortnozzle from it. > Than design the submarine around it.. > > vbr Carsten > > "Alan" schrieb: > Joe, > I designed mine as accurately as possible to dimensions I found > on the net. And the pots were perfect in slope to what I needed. > All you have to do is take your propeller to a plant shop & tell > them you are wanting to size it for a kort nozzle for a submarine. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 29/10/2013, at 9:08 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >> Yes Carsten, very hopeful moneywise! >> >> But, I wonder if this is a shrouded/ducted prop as opposed to an accurate Kort Nozzle. But, perhaps it may not matter in the end if all one wants is a prop guard. >> >> I am going to see what different configurations of the Kort Nozzle bring in terms of material cost. >> >> Joe >> >> From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 3:19 PM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> >> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Brand-New-300W-Motor-Powered-Sea-Scooter-Underwater-propeller-Diving-Assistant/336556698.html >> >> Inside Diameter of the Kortnozzle is 250mm or 9,84 something inch. >> >> Protection grid forward and aft are just fix with clips. >> >> vbr Carsten >> >> >> >> Alec, >> >> Don't count it out just yet, I went to Gavin via the link you provided and had an epiphany! Note well the inside surface vs the outside surface of that Kort nozzle!! >> >> The model I quoted was solid material!! >> >> I know what I'm doing tonight! >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> >> From: Alec Smyth ; >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 5:28:50 PM >> >> Sounds like David has just saved me the work of taking a 101 apart and measuring it, thanks! As for the 101 prop size, it's 11" diameter. Before you go off spending $760 on a nozzle, you might want to look up these folks: http://www.gavinscooters.com/ I can't help notice Emile used a Gavin, and it looks like Gavin Scooters, Inc. is right in your neighborhood. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> David, >> >> Thats spectacular, thanks! >> >> Joe >> >> From: David Colombo >> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 12:12 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> >> Hey Joe, >> I will send you my cad files on the Minkota 101 Saltwater. I have measured my new 101s and weed 2 prop. I have also worked out the Marin 37 Kort nozzel design and attachment to the thruster for use on the SeaQuestor project. I will be most likely sending it to my fiberglass fabricator who will cut the assembly in foam on their 5 axis cnc, ready for a fiberglass overlay. >> >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> http://www.seaquestor.com/ >> >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:03 AM, wrote: >> Joe, >> Since you asked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_urethanes >> Jim >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joe Perkel >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 9:54 am >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> >> Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle only in ABS plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting for prop clearance is $760. This is using FDM process. >> >> Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast urethane? Dont want it anyway!!! >> >> I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop for a 4" motor in order to get the quote exact. >> >> Joe >> >> From: hank pronk >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> >> Scott, >> I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones. They could go outside on a peg so to speak. The only problem is you want them at the bottom of the sub. That means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet. Maybe a slide system. I thought the same thing to put the air outside, that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness. :-) >> Hank >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonw at psubs.org Mon Oct 28 20:18:37 2013 From: jonw at psubs.org (Jon Wallace) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 20:18:37 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <526EFEDD.4060103@psubs.org> I don't see any info on thrust or pricing at the gavin site. That likely translates into "expensive". Jon On 10/28/2013 5:17 PM, Emile van Essen wrote: > E-Mail Software 6.0 > > That is more or less a toy.. > > This is better: > > http://www.gavinscootersfl.com/Large_Pics_of_Mini_G.html > > Mmm the whole unit can be used plug 'n play on a sub. > > Regards, Emile > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Tue Oct 29 05:55:43 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 09:55:43 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods Message-ID: Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 modifications. I would suggest these as critical. 1. Hatch. Opening from both sides. Worst part of the design I think. 2. Hatch bracket. Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy. Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on. 3. Variable tank mounting. The way the tank mounts is awkward and doesnt allow any adjustment. Much easier and better would be flat horizontal brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding flat brackets on the vbt. Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow the tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to be fitted easily. Also the tank could be just lifted up and on. Very simple change. I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much trouble you want to go to and cosmetics. For example, I changed the battery pod endcap seals. I had a real pain trying to make them as per the plans. The way i did them in the end with flanges was a lot easier. But probably nothing wrong with the original design. Skids. I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint knocked off. Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design. I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless. Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones shown on the plans. The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good. You could do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead if you didnt want to make too many. The dome of course. Overpressure valve. loads of little modifications. I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming about subs! Kind Regards James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Tue Oct 29 06:54:53 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 03:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1383044093.3042.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> James, ? Ive given thought to the hatch in the past, take a look at freeman marine and look at the cam mechanism with dogs, http://www.freemanmarine.com/ProductsHatches.htm ? Could not a rotating shaft pass through the center to both sides via same thru-hull as side thrusters, with a wheel on both sides and a similar cam mechanism on the inside? Upward Port moved a bit forward then, and beef up the hinge for extra weight as you said. ? ? Joe From: James Frankland To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org; PSUBS Member Discussion Group Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:55 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 modifications. I would suggest these as critical. 1.? Hatch.? Opening from both sides.? Worst part of the design I think. 2.? Hatch bracket.? Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy.? Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on. 3.? Variable tank mounting.? The way the tank mounts is awkward and doesnt allow any adjustment.? Much easier and better would be flat horizontal brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding flat brackets on the vbt.? Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow the tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to be fitted easily.? Also the tank could be just lifted up and on.? Very simple change. I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much trouble you want to go to and cosmetics. For example, I?changed the battery pod endcap seals.? I had a real pain trying to make them as per the plans.? The way i did them in the end with flanges was a lot easier.? But probably nothing wrong with the original design. Skids.? I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint knocked off.? Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design. I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless. Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones shown on the plans. The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good.? You could do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead?if you?didnt want to make too many. The dome of course. Overpressure valve. loads of little modifications. I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming about subs! Kind Regards James _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Tue Oct 29 07:15:49 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 11:15:49 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods In-Reply-To: <1383044093.3042.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1383044093.3042.YahooMailNeo@web160502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I cant see the one you mean Joe, is there a product number? On 29 October 2013 10:54, Joe Perkel wrote: > James, > > Ive given thought to the hatch in the past, take a look at freeman marine > and look at the cam mechanism with dogs, > http://www.freemanmarine.com/ProductsHatches.htm > > Could not a rotating shaft pass through the center to both sides via same > thru-hull as side thrusters, with a wheel on both sides and a similar cam > mechanism on the inside? Upward Port moved a bit forward then, and beef > up the hinge for extra weight as you said. > > > Joe > > *From:* James Frankland > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org; PSUBS Member Discussion Group < > member-forum at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:55 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods > > Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 > modifications. > > I would suggest these as critical. > > 1. Hatch. Opening from both sides. Worst part of the design I think. > > 2. Hatch bracket. Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy. > Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on. > > 3. Variable tank mounting. The way the tank mounts is awkward and doesnt > allow any adjustment. Much easier and better would be flat horizontal > brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding flat > brackets on the vbt. Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow the > tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to be > fitted easily. Also the tank could be just lifted up and on. Very simple > change. > > I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much > trouble you want to go to and cosmetics. > > For example, > > I changed the battery pod endcap seals. I had a real pain trying to make > them as per the plans. The way i did them in the end with flanges was a > lot easier. But probably nothing wrong with the original design. > > Skids. I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint > knocked off. Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design. > > I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless. > > Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones > shown on the plans. > > The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good. You could > do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead if you didnt > want to make too many. > > The dome of course. > > Overpressure valve. > > loads of little modifications. > > > I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming > about subs! > Kind Regards > James > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Tue Oct 29 07:25:37 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 04:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1383045937.3116.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> James,

2400 series, look for drawings at bottom of page for that series. The cast hatches are of no value to us but the mechanisms I believe are.


Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Tue Oct 29 07:52:23 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 11:52:23 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods In-Reply-To: <1383045937.3116.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1383045937.3116.YahooMailIosMobile@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: anything like that would be ok by the looks of things. That one is good because it only requires one through hull. On 29 October 2013 11:25, Joe Perkel wrote: > James, > > 2400 series, look for drawings at bottom of page for that series. The cast > hatches are of no value to us but the mechanisms I believe are. > > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > ------------------------------ > *From: *James Frankland ; > *To: *Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; > *Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods > *Sent: *Tue, Oct 29, 2013 11:15:49 AM > > I cant see the one you mean Joe, is there a product number? > > On 29 October 2013 10:54, Joe Perkel wrote: > >> James, >> >> Ive given thought to the hatch in the past, take a look at freeman marine >> and look at the cam mechanism with dogs, >> http://www.freemanmarine.com/ProductsHatches.htm >> >> Could not a rotating shaft pass through the center to both sides via same >> thru-hull as side thrusters, with a wheel on both sides and a similar >> cam mechanism on the inside? Upward Port moved a bit forward then, and >> beef up the hinge for extra weight as you said. >> >> >> Joe >> >> *From:* James Frankland >> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org; PSUBS Member Discussion Group < >> member-forum at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:55 AM >> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods >> >> Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 >> modifications. >> >> I would suggest these as critical. >> >> 1. Hatch. Opening from both sides. Worst part of the design I think. >> >> 2. Hatch bracket. Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy. >> Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on. >> >> 3. Variable tank mounting. The way the tank mounts is awkward and >> doesnt allow any adjustment. Much easier and better would be flat >> horizontal brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding >> flat brackets on the vbt. Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow >> the tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to >> be fitted easily. Also the tank could be just lifted up and on. Very >> simple change. >> >> I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much >> trouble you want to go to and cosmetics. >> >> For example, >> >> I changed the battery pod endcap seals. I had a real pain trying to make >> them as per the plans. The way i did them in the end with flanges was a >> lot easier. But probably nothing wrong with the original design. >> >> Skids. I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint >> knocked off. Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design. >> >> I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless. >> >> Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones >> shown on the plans. >> >> The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good. You >> could do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead if >> you didnt want to make too many. >> >> The dome of course. >> >> Overpressure valve. >> >> loads of little modifications. >> >> >> I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming >> about subs! >> Kind Regards >> James >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piolenc at archivale.com Tue Oct 29 07:59:15 2013 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 19:59:15 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <1382990928.59426.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1382983849.93163.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VasMn-3Whvii0@fwd20.t-online.de> <1382990928.59426.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <526FA313.6020601@archivale.com> A Kort nozzle is a ducted propeller - known by the name of the inventor of that particular application. Marc On 10/29/2013 4:08 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Yes Carsten, very hopeful moneywise! > But, I wonder if this is a shrouded/ducted prop as opposed to an > accurate Kort Nozzle. But, perhaps it may not matter in the end if all > one wants is a prop guard. > I am going to see what different configurations of the Kort Nozzle bring > in terms of material cost. > Joe > > *From:* "MerlinSub at t-online.de" > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 3:19 PM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Brand-New-300W-Motor-Powered-Sea-Scooter-Underwater-propeller-Diving-Assistant/336556698.html > > Inside Diameter of the Kortnozzle is 250mm or 9,84 something inch. > > Protection grid forward and aft are just fix with clips. > > vbr Carsten > > > > Alec, > > Don't count it out just yet, I went to Gavin via the link you > provided and had an epiphany! Note well the inside surface vs the > outside surface of that Kort nozzle!! > > The model I quoted was solid material!! > > I know what I'm doing tonight! > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > > *From: *Alec Smyth ; > *To: *Personal Submersibles General Discussion > ; > *Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > *Sent: *Mon, Oct 28, 2013 5:28:50 PM > > Sounds like David has just saved me the work of taking a 101 apart > and measuring it, thanks! As for the 101 prop size, it's 11" > diameter. Before you go off spending $760 on a nozzle, you might > want to look up these folks: http://www.gavinscooters.com/ I > can't help notice Emile used a Gavin, and it looks like Gavin > Scooters, Inc. is right in your neighborhood. > > Best, > > Alec > > > On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Joe Perkel > wrote: > > David, > Thats spectacular, thanks! > Joe > > *From:* David Colombo > > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 12:12 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > Hey Joe, > I will send you my cad files on the Minkota 101 Saltwater. I > have measured my new 101s and weed 2 prop. I have also worked > out the Marin 37 Kort nozzel design and attachment to the > thruster for use on the SeaQuestor project. I will be most > likely sending it to my fiberglass fabricator who will cut the > assembly in foam on their 5 axis cnc, ready for a fiberglass > overlay. > > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > http://www.seaquestor.com/ > > > > On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:03 AM, wrote: > > Joe, > Since you asked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_urethanes > Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Perkel > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 9:54 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle > only in ABS plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting > for prop clearance is $760. This is using FDM process. > Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast > urethane? Dont want it anyway!!! > I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop > for a 4" motor in order to get the quote exact. > Joe > > *From:* hank pronk > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > > Scott, > I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones. > They could go outside on a peg so to speak. The only > problem is you want them at the bottom of the sub. That > means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet. Maybe a > slide system. I thought the same thing to put the air > outside, that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness. :-) > Hank > > *From:* swaters > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would > say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking > weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn > between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to > allow alot more room on the inside. > Thanks, > Scott Waters > > > > > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone > hank pronk wrote: > Joe, > Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement > would be for a k sub or alike. My vote would be for a hatch > closure from both sides. > Hank > > *From:* Joe Perkel > *To:* "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" > > *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request > I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found > while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. > http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx > > Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek > synthesizer in the real world. > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > *From: *Marc de Piolenc ; *To: > *; *Subject: *Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request *Sent: *Mon, Oct 28, 2013 > 10:46:58 AM > Never thought much about doing it at small scale. > > I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a > potter's wheel > and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. > Once I had > the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold > around the > master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final > part in some > suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. > > 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - > the accuracy > available is already better than what we would need, and if > the inital > results are not perfect, making changes and printing out > another > prototype is very quick. > > Marc > > On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out > of "X" material? > > > > Joe > > > > Sent from my overpriced > > iPhone > > > > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc > wrote: > > > >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, > MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and > low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, > since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud > around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a > shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless > it's free! Key ingredients for success: > >> > >> Prop matched to the shroud > >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of > the vehicle > >> Motor matched to the resulting prop > >> > >> Marc > >> > >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: > >>> > >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined > by a CNC? I think > >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but > I suspect > >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of > dollars, if not > >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy > underwater videos > >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making > any difference in > >>> the operational experience given that the motors are > operating very > >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots > (estimated). The > >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we > want underwater. True, > >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the > return on the > >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of > 30mph and no > >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a > 1.6 liter or 5.4 > >>> liter engine under the hood does it? > >> -- > >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > >> Translations (ProZ profile): > http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > >> Translations (BeWords profile): > http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list > >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > >> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): > http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords > profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: > http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing > listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing > listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing > listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > -- > > Carsten Standfu? > Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik > Heinrich Reck Str.12A > 18211 Admannshagen > > 0172 8464 420 > WWW.Euronaut.org > Carsten at euronaut.org > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From josephperkel at yahoo.com Tue Oct 29 08:54:31 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 08:54:31 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <526FA313.6020601@archivale.com> References: <1382983849.93163.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VasMn-3Whvii0@fwd20.t-online.de> <1382990928.59426.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <526FA313.6020601@archivale.com> Message-ID: <47084A42-7DE2-4276-9A79-C3E09A0EDC68@yahoo.com> Marc, What other build processes can you recommend? Intake diameter of nozzle exceeds capability of 3d process and cost issues. How do hovercraft builders (hobbyists) maintain an accurate profile on such large ducts? Joe Sent from my overpriced iPhone On Oct 29, 2013, at 7:59 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > A Kort nozzle is a ducted propeller - known by the name of the inventor of that particular application. > > Marc > > On 10/29/2013 4:08 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> Yes Carsten, very hopeful moneywise! >> But, I wonder if this is a shrouded/ducted prop as opposed to an >> accurate Kort Nozzle. But, perhaps it may not matter in the end if all >> one wants is a prop guard. >> I am going to see what different configurations of the Kort Nozzle bring >> in terms of material cost. >> Joe >> >> *From:* "MerlinSub at t-online.de" >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 3:19 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> >> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Brand-New-300W-Motor-Powered-Sea-Scooter-Underwater-propeller-Diving-Assistant/336556698.html >> >> Inside Diameter of the Kortnozzle is 250mm or 9,84 something inch. >> >> Protection grid forward and aft are just fix with clips. >> >> vbr Carsten >> >> >> >> Alec, >> >> Don't count it out just yet, I went to Gavin via the link you >> provided and had an epiphany! Note well the inside surface vs the >> outside surface of that Kort nozzle!! >> >> The model I quoted was solid material!! >> >> I know what I'm doing tonight! >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> >> >> *From: *Alec Smyth ; >> *To: *Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> ; >> *Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> *Sent: *Mon, Oct 28, 2013 5:28:50 PM >> >> Sounds like David has just saved me the work of taking a 101 apart >> and measuring it, thanks! As for the 101 prop size, it's 11" >> diameter. Before you go off spending $760 on a nozzle, you might >> want to look up these folks: http://www.gavinscooters.com/ I >> can't help notice Emile used a Gavin, and it looks like Gavin >> Scooters, Inc. is right in your neighborhood. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Joe Perkel >> wrote: >> >> David, >> Thats spectacular, thanks! >> Joe >> >> *From:* David Colombo >> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 12:12 PM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> >> Hey Joe, >> I will send you my cad files on the Minkota 101 Saltwater. I >> have measured my new 101s and weed 2 prop. I have also worked >> out the Marin 37 Kort nozzel design and attachment to the >> thruster for use on the SeaQuestor project. I will be most >> likely sending it to my fiberglass fabricator who will cut the >> assembly in foam on their 5 axis cnc, ready for a fiberglass >> overlay. >> >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> http://www.seaquestor.com/ >> >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:03 AM, wrote: >> >> Joe, >> Since you asked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_urethanes >> Jim >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joe Perkel >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 9:54 am >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> >> Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle >> only in ABS plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting >> for prop clearance is $760. This is using FDM process. >> Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast >> urethane? Dont want it anyway!!! >> I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop >> for a 4" motor in order to get the quote exact. >> Joe >> >> *From:* hank pronk >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> >> Scott, >> I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones. >> They could go outside on a peg so to speak. The only >> problem is you want them at the bottom of the sub. That >> means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet. Maybe a >> slide system. I thought the same thing to put the air >> outside, that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness. :-) >> Hank >> >> *From:* swaters >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would >> say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking >> weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn >> between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to >> allow alot more room on the inside. >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> hank pronk wrote: >> Joe, >> Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement >> would be for a k sub or alike. My vote would be for a hatch >> closure from both sides. >> Hank >> >> *From:* Joe Perkel >> *To:* "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" >> >> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found >> while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. >> http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx >> >> Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek >> synthesizer in the real world. >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> >> *From: *Marc de Piolenc ; *To: >> *; *Subject: *Re: >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request *Sent: *Mon, Oct 28, 2013 >> 10:46:58 AM >> Never thought much about doing it at small scale. >> >> I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a >> potter's wheel >> and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. >> Once I had >> the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold >> around the >> master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final >> part in some >> suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. >> >> 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - >> the accuracy >> available is already better than what we would need, and if >> the inital >> results are not perfect, making changes and printing out >> another >> prototype is very quick. >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out >> of "X" material? >> > >> > Joe >> > >> > Sent from my overpriced >> > iPhone >> > >> > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc >> wrote: >> > >> >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, >> MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and >> low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, >> since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud >> around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a >> shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless >> it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of >> the vehicle >> >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> >> >> Marc >> >> >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >> >>> >> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined >> by a CNC? I think >> >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but >> I suspect >> >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of >> dollars, if not >> >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy >> underwater videos >> >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making >> any difference in >> >>> the operational experience given that the motors are >> operating very >> >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots >> (estimated). The >> >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we >> want underwater. True, >> >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the >> return on the >> >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of >> 30mph and no >> >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a >> 1.6 liter or 5.4 >> >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> >> -- >> >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> >> Translations (ProZ profile): >> http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> >> Translations (BeWords profile): >> http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): >> http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords >> profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: >> http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing >> listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing >> listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing >> listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Carsten Standfu? >> Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik >> Heinrich Reck Str.12A >> 18211 Admannshagen >> >> 0172 8464 420 >> WWW.Euronaut.org >> Carsten at euronaut.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From Alec.Smyth at covisint.com Tue Oct 29 09:06:42 2013 From: Alec.Smyth at covisint.com (Smyth, Alec) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 13:06:42 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <47084A42-7DE2-4276-9A79-C3E09A0EDC68@yahoo.com> References: <1382983849.93163.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VasMn-3Whvii0@fwd20.t-online.de> <1382990928.59426.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <526FA313.6020601@archivale.com> <47084A42-7DE2-4276-9A79-C3E09A0EDC68@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <154b7b56aeac4f41911e9255bc3eadae@BN1PR05MB486.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Joe, one thing you could do in order to make it printable is split the nozzle into three or four interlocking sections. Perhaps make the joints coincide with the spokes that secure the nozzle to the thruster, so that the same screws go through both overlapping nozzle bits and the spoke to hold it all together. Best, Alec -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Joe Perkel Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 8:55 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request Marc, What other build processes can you recommend? Intake diameter of nozzle exceeds capability of 3d process and cost issues. How do hovercraft builders (hobbyists) maintain an accurate profile on such large ducts? Joe Sent from my overpriced iPhone On Oct 29, 2013, at 7:59 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > A Kort nozzle is a ducted propeller - known by the name of the inventor of that particular application. > > Marc > > On 10/29/2013 4:08 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> Yes Carsten, very hopeful moneywise! >> But, I wonder if this is a shrouded/ducted prop as opposed to an >> accurate Kort Nozzle. But, perhaps it may not matter in the end if all >> one wants is a prop guard. >> I am going to see what different configurations of the Kort Nozzle bring >> in terms of material cost. >> Joe >> >> *From:* "MerlinSub at t-online.de" >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 3:19 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> >> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Brand-New-300W-Motor-Powered-Sea-Scooter-Underwater-propeller-Diving-Assistant/336556698.html >> >> Inside Diameter of the Kortnozzle is 250mm or 9,84 something inch. >> >> Protection grid forward and aft are just fix with clips. >> >> vbr Carsten >> >> >> >> Alec, >> >> Don't count it out just yet, I went to Gavin via the link you >> provided and had an epiphany! Note well the inside surface vs the >> outside surface of that Kort nozzle!! >> >> The model I quoted was solid material!! >> >> I know what I'm doing tonight! >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> >> >> *From: *Alec Smyth ; >> *To: *Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> ; >> *Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> *Sent: *Mon, Oct 28, 2013 5:28:50 PM >> >> Sounds like David has just saved me the work of taking a 101 apart >> and measuring it, thanks! As for the 101 prop size, it's 11" >> diameter. Before you go off spending $760 on a nozzle, you might >> want to look up these folks: http://www.gavinscooters.com/ I >> can't help notice Emile used a Gavin, and it looks like Gavin >> Scooters, Inc. is right in your neighborhood. >> >> Best, >> >> Alec >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Joe Perkel >> wrote: >> >> David, >> Thats spectacular, thanks! >> Joe >> >> *From:* David Colombo >> >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 12:12 PM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> >> Hey Joe, >> I will send you my cad files on the Minkota 101 Saltwater. I >> have measured my new 101s and weed 2 prop. I have also worked >> out the Marin 37 Kort nozzel design and attachment to the >> thruster for use on the SeaQuestor project. I will be most >> likely sending it to my fiberglass fabricator who will cut the >> assembly in foam on their 5 axis cnc, ready for a fiberglass >> overlay. >> >> >> Best Regards, >> David Colombo >> >> 804 College Ave >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >> (707) 536-1424 >> http://www.seaquestor.com/ >> >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:03 AM, wrote: >> >> Joe, >> Since you asked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_urethanes >> Jim >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joe Perkel >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 9:54 am >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> >> Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle >> only in ABS plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting >> for prop clearance is $760. This is using FDM process. >> Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast >> urethane? Dont want it anyway!!! >> I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop >> for a 4" motor in order to get the quote exact. >> Joe >> >> *From:* hank pronk >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> >> Scott, >> I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones. >> They could go outside on a peg so to speak. The only >> problem is you want them at the bottom of the sub. That >> means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet. Maybe a >> slide system. I thought the same thing to put the air >> outside, that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness. :-) >> Hank >> >> *From:* swaters >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> >> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would >> say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking >> weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn >> between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to >> allow alot more room on the inside. >> Thanks, >> Scott Waters >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >> hank pronk wrote: >> Joe, >> Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement >> would be for a k sub or alike. My vote would be for a hatch >> closure from both sides. >> Hank >> >> *From:* Joe Perkel >> *To:* "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" >> >> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >> I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found >> while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. >> http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx >> >> Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek >> synthesizer in the real world. >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> >> *From: *Marc de Piolenc ; *To: >> *; *Subject: *Re: >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request *Sent: *Mon, Oct 28, 2013 >> 10:46:58 AM >> Never thought much about doing it at small scale. >> >> I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a >> potter's wheel >> and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. >> Once I had >> the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold >> around the >> master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final >> part in some >> suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. >> >> 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - >> the accuracy >> available is already better than what we would need, and if >> the inital >> results are not perfect, making changes and printing out >> another >> prototype is very quick. >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >> > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out >> of "X" material? >> > >> > Joe >> > >> > Sent from my overpriced >> > iPhone >> > >> > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc >> wrote: >> > >> >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, >> MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and >> low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, >> since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud >> around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a >> shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless >> it's free! Key ingredients for success: >> >> >> >> Prop matched to the shroud >> >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of >> the vehicle >> >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >> >> >> >> Marc >> >> >> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >> >>> >> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined >> by a CNC? I think >> >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but >> I suspect >> >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of >> dollars, if not >> >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy >> underwater videos >> >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making >> any difference in >> >>> the operational experience given that the motors are >> operating very >> >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots >> (estimated). The >> >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we >> want underwater. True, >> >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the >> return on the >> >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of >> 30mph and no >> >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a >> 1.6 liter or 5.4 >> >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >> >> -- >> >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> >> Translations (ProZ profile): >> http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> >> Translations (BeWords profile): >> http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> > >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): >> http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords >> profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: >> http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing >> listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing >> listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing >> listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Carsten Standfu? >> Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik >> Heinrich Reck Str.12A >> 18211 Admannshagen >> >> 0172 8464 420 >> WWW.Euronaut.org >> Carsten at euronaut.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog > Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog > Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc > Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From swaters at waters-ks.com Tue Oct 29 10:21:53 2013 From: swaters at waters-ks.com (swaters at waters-ks.com) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 07:21:53 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods Message-ID: <20131029072153.49e8347f125ba4e1b2aff75c01b07c1e.9957a88ce6.wbe@email13.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piolenc at archivale.com Tue Oct 29 10:30:14 2013 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 22:30:14 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <47084A42-7DE2-4276-9A79-C3E09A0EDC68@yahoo.com> References: <1382983849.93163.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VasMn-3Whvii0@fwd20.t-online.de> <1382990928.59426.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <526FA313.6020601@archivale.com> <47084A42-7DE2-4276-9A79-C3E09A0EDC68@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <526FC676.6070505@archivale.com> Two suggestions have already been made, namely printing it in sections - a common practice - and the woodlathe-master idea. Marc On 10/29/2013 8:54 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Marc, > > What other build processes can you recommend? Intake diameter of nozzle exceeds capability of 3d process and cost issues. > > How do hovercraft builders (hobbyists) maintain an accurate profile on such large ducts? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 29, 2013, at 7:59 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> A Kort nozzle is a ducted propeller - known by the name of the inventor of that particular application. >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/29/2013 4:08 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: >>> Yes Carsten, very hopeful moneywise! >>> But, I wonder if this is a shrouded/ducted prop as opposed to an >>> accurate Kort Nozzle. But, perhaps it may not matter in the end if all >>> one wants is a prop guard. >>> I am going to see what different configurations of the Kort Nozzle bring >>> in terms of material cost. >>> Joe >>> >>> *From:* "MerlinSub at t-online.de" >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> >>> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 3:19 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >>> >>> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Brand-New-300W-Motor-Powered-Sea-Scooter-Underwater-propeller-Diving-Assistant/336556698.html >>> >>> Inside Diameter of the Kortnozzle is 250mm or 9,84 something inch. >>> >>> Protection grid forward and aft are just fix with clips. >>> >>> vbr Carsten >>> >>> >>> >>> Alec, >>> >>> Don't count it out just yet, I went to Gavin via the link you >>> provided and had an epiphany! Note well the inside surface vs the >>> outside surface of that Kort nozzle!! >>> >>> The model I quoted was solid material!! >>> >>> I know what I'm doing tonight! >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>> >>> >>> *From: *Alec Smyth ; >>> *To: *Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> ; >>> *Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >>> *Sent: *Mon, Oct 28, 2013 5:28:50 PM >>> >>> Sounds like David has just saved me the work of taking a 101 apart >>> and measuring it, thanks! As for the 101 prop size, it's 11" >>> diameter. Before you go off spending $760 on a nozzle, you might >>> want to look up these folks: http://www.gavinscooters.com/ I >>> can't help notice Emile used a Gavin, and it looks like Gavin >>> Scooters, Inc. is right in your neighborhood. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Joe Perkel >>> wrote: >>> >>> David, >>> Thats spectacular, thanks! >>> Joe >>> >>> *From:* David Colombo >>> >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> >>> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 12:12 PM >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >>> >>> Hey Joe, >>> I will send you my cad files on the Minkota 101 Saltwater. I >>> have measured my new 101s and weed 2 prop. I have also worked >>> out the Marin 37 Kort nozzel design and attachment to the >>> thruster for use on the SeaQuestor project. I will be most >>> likely sending it to my fiberglass fabricator who will cut the >>> assembly in foam on their 5 axis cnc, ready for a fiberglass >>> overlay. >>> >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> David Colombo >>> >>> 804 College Ave >>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>> (707) 536-1424 >>> http://www.seaquestor.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:03 AM, wrote: >>> >>> Joe, >>> Since you asked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_urethanes >>> Jim >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Joe Perkel >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> >>> Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 9:54 am >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >>> >>> Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle >>> only in ABS plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting >>> for prop clearance is $760. This is using FDM process. >>> Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast >>> urethane? Dont want it anyway!!! >>> I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop >>> for a 4" motor in order to get the quote exact. >>> Joe >>> >>> *From:* hank pronk >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> >>> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >>> >>> Scott, >>> I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones. >>> They could go outside on a peg so to speak. The only >>> problem is you want them at the bottom of the sub. That >>> means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet. Maybe a >>> slide system. I thought the same thing to put the air >>> outside, that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness. :-) >>> Hank >>> >>> *From:* swaters >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> >>> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >>> Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would >>> say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking >>> weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn >>> between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to >>> allow alot more room on the inside. >>> Thanks, >>> Scott Waters >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>> hank pronk wrote: >>> Joe, >>> Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement >>> would be for a k sub or alike. My vote would be for a hatch >>> closure from both sides. >>> Hank >>> >>> *From:* Joe Perkel >>> *To:* "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" >>> >>> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >>> I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found >>> while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. >>> http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx >>> >>> Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek >>> synthesizer in the real world. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>> >>> *From: *Marc de Piolenc ; *To: >>> *; *Subject: *Re: >>> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request *Sent: *Mon, Oct 28, 2013 >>> 10:46:58 AM >>> Never thought much about doing it at small scale. >>> >>> I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a >>> potter's wheel >>> and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. >>> Once I had >>> the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold >>> around the >>> master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final >>> part in some >>> suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. >>> >>> 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - >>> the accuracy >>> available is already better than what we would need, and if >>> the inital >>> results are not perfect, making changes and printing out >>> another >>> prototype is very quick. >>> >>> Marc >>> >>> On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >>> > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out >>> of "X" material? >>> > >>> > Joe >>> > >>> > Sent from my overpriced >>> > iPhone >>> > >>> > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc >>> wrote: >>> > >>> >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, >>> MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and >>> low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, >>> since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud >>> around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a >>> shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless >>> it's free! Key ingredients for success: >>> >> >>> >> Prop matched to the shroud >>> >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of >>> the vehicle >>> >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >>> >> >>> >> Marc >>> >> >>> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined >>> by a CNC? I think >>> >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but >>> I suspect >>> >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of >>> dollars, if not >>> >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy >>> underwater videos >>> >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making >>> any difference in >>> >>> the operational experience given that the motors are >>> operating very >>> >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots >>> (estimated). The >>> >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we >>> want underwater. True, >>> >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the >>> return on the >>> >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of >>> 30mph and no >>> >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a >>> 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >>> >> -- >>> >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >>> >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >>> >> Translations (ProZ profile): >>> http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >>> >> Translations (BeWords profile): >>> http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >>> >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> > >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >>> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >>> Translations (ProZ profile): >>> http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords >>> profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: >>> http://massflow.archivale.com/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing >>> listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing >>> listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing >>> listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Carsten Standfu? >>> Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik >>> Heinrich Reck Str.12A >>> 18211 Admannshagen >>> >>> 0172 8464 420 >>> WWW.Euronaut.org >>> Carsten at euronaut.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From piolenc at archivale.com Tue Oct 29 10:34:47 2013 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 22:34:47 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <47084A42-7DE2-4276-9A79-C3E09A0EDC68@yahoo.com> References: <1382983849.93163.YahooMailIosMobile@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VasMn-3Whvii0@fwd20.t-online.de> <1382990928.59426.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <526FA313.6020601@archivale.com> <47084A42-7DE2-4276-9A79-C3E09A0EDC68@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <526FC787.6080601@archivale.com> Forgot the hovercraft question. Typical hovercraft ducts use a plywood former that coincides with the plane of the propeller. The rest of the shroud extends forward and rearward of that former or hoop. Only the hoop has to be a perfect fit, and that can be guaranteed by struts running from a bearing on the propeller shaft itself. The rest of the shroud has larger - sometimes much larger - tolerances. Mind you, air is 800 times less dense than water, so the two jobs are not of comparable difficulty. Working in water is much more demanding, both because of smaller tolerances and because of the need to provide for cavitation. Marc On 10/29/2013 8:54 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Marc, > > What other build processes can you recommend? Intake diameter of nozzle exceeds capability of 3d process and cost issues. > > How do hovercraft builders (hobbyists) maintain an accurate profile on such large ducts? > > Joe > > Sent from my overpriced > iPhone > > On Oct 29, 2013, at 7:59 AM, Marc de Piolenc wrote: > >> A Kort nozzle is a ducted propeller - known by the name of the inventor of that particular application. >> >> Marc >> >> On 10/29/2013 4:08 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: >>> Yes Carsten, very hopeful moneywise! >>> But, I wonder if this is a shrouded/ducted prop as opposed to an >>> accurate Kort Nozzle. But, perhaps it may not matter in the end if all >>> one wants is a prop guard. >>> I am going to see what different configurations of the Kort Nozzle bring >>> in terms of material cost. >>> Joe >>> >>> *From:* "MerlinSub at t-online.de" >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> >>> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 3:19 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >>> >>> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Brand-New-300W-Motor-Powered-Sea-Scooter-Underwater-propeller-Diving-Assistant/336556698.html >>> >>> Inside Diameter of the Kortnozzle is 250mm or 9,84 something inch. >>> >>> Protection grid forward and aft are just fix with clips. >>> >>> vbr Carsten >>> >>> >>> >>> Alec, >>> >>> Don't count it out just yet, I went to Gavin via the link you >>> provided and had an epiphany! Note well the inside surface vs the >>> outside surface of that Kort nozzle!! >>> >>> The model I quoted was solid material!! >>> >>> I know what I'm doing tonight! >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>> >>> >>> *From: *Alec Smyth ; >>> *To: *Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> ; >>> *Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >>> *Sent: *Mon, Oct 28, 2013 5:28:50 PM >>> >>> Sounds like David has just saved me the work of taking a 101 apart >>> and measuring it, thanks! As for the 101 prop size, it's 11" >>> diameter. Before you go off spending $760 on a nozzle, you might >>> want to look up these folks: http://www.gavinscooters.com/ I >>> can't help notice Emile used a Gavin, and it looks like Gavin >>> Scooters, Inc. is right in your neighborhood. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Alec >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Joe Perkel >>> wrote: >>> >>> David, >>> Thats spectacular, thanks! >>> Joe >>> >>> *From:* David Colombo >>> >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> >>> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 12:12 PM >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >>> >>> Hey Joe, >>> I will send you my cad files on the Minkota 101 Saltwater. I >>> have measured my new 101s and weed 2 prop. I have also worked >>> out the Marin 37 Kort nozzel design and attachment to the >>> thruster for use on the SeaQuestor project. I will be most >>> likely sending it to my fiberglass fabricator who will cut the >>> assembly in foam on their 5 axis cnc, ready for a fiberglass >>> overlay. >>> >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> David Colombo >>> >>> 804 College Ave >>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 >>> (707) 536-1424 >>> http://www.seaquestor.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 8:03 AM, wrote: >>> >>> Joe, >>> Since you asked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_urethanes >>> Jim >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Joe Perkel >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> >>> Sent: Mon, Oct 28, 2013 9:54 am >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >>> >>> Ok gentlemen first round of quotes for a Marin 19A Nozzle >>> only in ABS plastic (White) for a 6" prop and not accounting >>> for prop clearance is $760. This is using FDM process. >>> Same nozzle in cast urethane,.. $ 3,700,.. what is cast >>> urethane? Dont want it anyway!!! >>> I need to know the exact diameter of a Weedless wedge 2 prop >>> for a 4" motor in order to get the quote exact. >>> Joe >>> >>> *From:* hank pronk >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> >>> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 10:28 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >>> >>> Scott, >>> I use weights from a weight lifting set, the steel ones. >>> They could go outside on a peg so to speak. The only >>> problem is you want them at the bottom of the sub. That >>> means hauling the sub unless you want to get wet. Maybe a >>> slide system. I thought the same thing to put the air >>> outside, that would kill my sleek and slippery-ness. :-) >>> Hank >>> >>> *From:* swaters >>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> >>> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 7:46:30 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >>> Hatch closure from both sides deffenetly a good one. I would >>> say adjustable exterior weights. I hate the idea on chucking >>> weights on the floor and then sitting on them. I am torn >>> between that and moving the hp air tanks to the exterior to >>> allow alot more room on the inside. >>> Thanks, >>> Scott Waters >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my U.S. Cellular? Smartphone >>> hank pronk wrote: >>> Joe, >>> Why don't you take a vote on what the best improvement >>> would be for a k sub or alike. My vote would be for a hatch >>> closure from both sides. >>> Hank >>> >>> *From:* Joe Perkel >>> *To:* "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" >>> >>> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2013 5:41:42 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request >>> I just love the world in which we live! Look what I found >>> while waiting to take my daughter to school,.. >>> http://www.quickparts.com/QuickQuote.aspx >>> >>> Isn't that just the coolest thing! The Star Trek >>> synthesizer in the real world. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>> >>> *From: *Marc de Piolenc ; *To: >>> *; *Subject: *Re: >>> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request *Sent: *Mon, Oct 28, 2013 >>> 10:46:58 AM >>> Never thought much about doing it at small scale. >>> >>> I suppose I would set up something like a wood lathe or a >>> potter's wheel >>> and work in some very soft material like low-density foam. >>> Once I had >>> the shape that I wanted, I suppose one could pour a mold >>> around the >>> master, melt or dissolve out the pattern and cast the final >>> part in some >>> suitable plastic, or even in aluminum if you were ambitious. >>> >>> 3D printing seems like the ultimate way to do it, though - >>> the accuracy >>> available is already better than what we would need, and if >>> the inital >>> results are not perfect, making changes and printing out >>> another >>> prototype is very quick. >>> >>> Marc >>> >>> On 10/28/2013 6:13 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: >>> > How can a home builder maintain that contour 360 Deg out >>> of "X" material? >>> > >>> > Joe >>> > >>> > Sent from my overpriced >>> > iPhone >>> > >>> > On Oct 28, 2013, at 2:57 AM, Marc de Piolenc >>> wrote: >>> > >>> >> Quick clarification: a properly contoured Kort nozzle, >>> MARRIED TO A MATCHING PROPELLER, will increase static and >>> low-speed thrust. Of course it won't increase power, >>> since that comes from your motor. If you just put a shroud >>> around your existing prop, you will be disappointed, and a >>> shroud that doesn't do the job is overpriced unless >>> it's free! Key ingredients for success: >>> >> >>> >> Prop matched to the shroud >>> >> Shroud matched to the speed and thrust requirement of >>> the vehicle >>> >> Motor matched to the resulting prop >>> >> >>> >> Marc >>> >> >>> >> On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Jon Wallace wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> What is the cost of having a true Kort nozzle machined >>> by a CNC? I think >>> >>> a 30% improvement in thrust for $30 would be great but >>> I suspect >>> >>> machining a Kort is going to equate to many hundreds of >>> dollars, if not >>> >>> reaching beyond a thousand. When I look at the Snoopy >>> underwater videos >>> >>> it is difficult to imagine a kort nozzle really making >>> any difference in >>> >>> the operational experience given that the motors are >>> operating very >>> >>> slowly and pushing Snoopy around at about 2 knots >>> (estimated). The >>> >>> props are designed for power, but that's what we >>> want underwater. True, >>> >>> a kort nozzle would increase that power but what is the >>> return on the >>> >>> cost? In other words, on a road with a speed limit of >>> 30mph and no >>> >>> passing zones it doesn't matter whether you have a >>> 1.6 liter or 5.4 >>> >>> liter engine under the hood does it? >>> >> -- >>> >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >>> >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >>> >> Translations (ProZ profile): >>> http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >>> >> Translations (BeWords profile): >>> http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >>> >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> >> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> > >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >>> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >>> Translations (ProZ profile): >>> http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords >>> profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: >>> http://massflow.archivale.com/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing >>> listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing >>> listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing >>> listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Carsten Standfu? >>> Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik >>> Heinrich Reck Str.12A >>> 18211 Admannshagen >>> >>> 0172 8464 420 >>> WWW.Euronaut.org >>> Carsten at euronaut.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog >> Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog >> Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc >> Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Tue Oct 29 10:38:10 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 10:38:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Message-ID: <8D0A2CB9FE4BDC0-1A30-D578@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> On this hatch mechanism the dogs pivot instead of sliding. The arms are threaded to adjust the length turnbuckle style. For sliding dogs, beveling them where they contact the latch point allows them to progressively tighten as they move into place. The latch points on the tower should either be replaceable or have replaceable wear plates. That also allows you to change the thickness of the wear plates in order to adjust the pressure of the hatch to the landing. -Jim -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 6:53 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods anything like that would be ok by the looks of things. That one is good because it only requires one through hull. On 29 October 2013 11:25, Joe Perkel wrote: James, 2400 series, look for drawings at bottom of page for that series. The cast hatches are of no value to us but the mechanisms I believe are. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: James Frankland ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 11:15:49 AM I cant see the one you mean Joe, is there a product number? On 29 October 2013 10:54, Joe Perkel wrote: James, Ive given thought to the hatch in the past, take a look at freeman marine and look at the cam mechanism with dogs, http://www.freemanmarine.com/ProductsHatches.htm Could not a rotating shaft pass through the center to both sides via same thru-hull as side thrusters, with a wheel on both sides and a similar cam mechanism on the inside? Upward Port moved a bit forward then, and beef up the hinge for extra weight as you said. Joe From: James Frankland To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org; PSUBS Member Discussion Group Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:55 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 modifications. I would suggest these as critical. 1. Hatch. Opening from both sides. Worst part of the design I think. 2. Hatch bracket. Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy. Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on. 3. Variable tank mounting. The way the tank mounts is awkward and doesnt allow any adjustment. Much easier and better would be flat horizontal brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding flat brackets on the vbt. Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow the tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to be fitted easily. Also the tank could be just lifted up and on. Very simple change. I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much trouble you want to go to and cosmetics. For example, I changed the battery pod endcap seals. I had a real pain trying to make them as per the plans. The way i did them in the end with flanges was a lot easier. But probably nothing wrong with the original design. Skids. I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint knocked off. Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design. I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless. Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones shown on the plans. The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good. You could do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead if you didnt want to make too many. The dome of course. Overpressure valve. loads of little modifications. I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming about subs! Kind Regards James _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CIMG3887.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 86676 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Tue Oct 29 10:54:45 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 10:54:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Message-ID: <8D0A2CDF12AE97C-1A30-D7E7@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> Hatch topside on USS Silverside. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: USS Silversides Hatch.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 64451 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Tue Oct 29 12:20:14 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 16:20:14 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms In-Reply-To: <8D0A2CB9FE4BDC0-1A30-D578@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0A2CB9FE4BDC0-1A30-D578@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim. I reckon i took that picture! unless you took one almost exactly the same! Its the lanzarote sub i think, i remember sending it to someone, Brent i think. On 29 October 2013 14:38, wrote: > On this hatch mechanism the dogs pivot instead of sliding. The > arms are threaded to adjust the length turnbuckle style. > > [image: CIMG3887.JPG] > For sliding dogs, beveling them where they contact the latch point allows > them to progressively tighten as they move into place. The latch points on > the tower should either be replaceable or have replaceable wear plates. > That also allows you to change the thickness of the wear plates in order > to adjust the pressure of the hatch to the landing. > -Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: James Frankland > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 6:53 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods > > anything like that would be ok by the looks of things. That one is good > because it only requires one through hull. > > On 29 October 2013 11:25, Joe Perkel wrote: > >> James, >> >> 2400 series, look for drawings at bottom of page for that series. The >> cast hatches are of no value to us but the mechanisms I believe are. >> >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From: *James Frankland ; >> *To: *Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; >> *Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods >> *Sent: *Tue, Oct 29, 2013 11:15:49 AM >> >> I cant see the one you mean Joe, is there a product number? >> >> On 29 October 2013 10:54, Joe Perkel wrote: >> >>> James, >>> >>> Ive given thought to the hatch in the past, take a look at freeman >>> marine and look at the cam mechanism with dogs, >>> http://www.freemanmarine.com/ProductsHatches.htm >>> >>> Could not a rotating shaft pass through the center to both sides via >>> same thru-hull as side thrusters, with a wheel on both sides and a >>> similar cam mechanism on the inside? Upward Port moved a bit forward >>> then, and beef up the hinge for extra weight as you said. >>> >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> *From:* James Frankland >>> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org; PSUBS Member Discussion Group < >>> member-forum at psubs.org> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:55 AM >>> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods >>> >>> Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 >>> modifications. >>> >>> I would suggest these as critical. >>> >>> 1. Hatch. Opening from both sides. Worst part of the design I think. >>> >>> 2. Hatch bracket. Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy. >>> Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on. >>> >>> 3. Variable tank mounting. The way the tank mounts is awkward and >>> doesnt allow any adjustment. Much easier and better would be flat >>> horizontal brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding >>> flat brackets on the vbt. Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow >>> the tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to >>> be fitted easily. Also the tank could be just lifted up and on. Very >>> simple change. >>> >>> I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much >>> trouble you want to go to and cosmetics. >>> >>> For example, >>> >>> I changed the battery pod endcap seals. I had a real pain trying to >>> make them as per the plans. The way i did them in the end with flanges was >>> a lot easier. But probably nothing wrong with the original design. >>> >>> Skids. I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint >>> knocked off. Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design. >>> >>> I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless. >>> >>> Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones >>> shown on the plans. >>> >>> The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good. You >>> could do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead if >>> you didnt want to make too many. >>> >>> The dome of course. >>> >>> Overpressure valve. >>> >>> loads of little modifications. >>> >>> >>> I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming >>> about subs! >>> Kind Regards >>> James >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CIMG3887.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 86676 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: lanza2.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 44480 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Tue Oct 29 14:15:19 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 11:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms In-Reply-To: References: <8D0A2CB9FE4BDC0-1A30-D578@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1383070519.49727.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Jim, that is exactly what I did with my k350 hatch.? I didn't have tie rods yet so I put adjusting bolts in the dogs.? I intent to change to tie rods from go carts.? This is very easy to build.? The slide system is the easiest to fabricate though and less complicated.? Gamma has slides. Hank From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:20:14 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Hi Jim.? I reckon i took that picture!? unless you took one almost exactly the same!? Its the lanzarote sub i think, i remember sending it to someone, Brent i think. ? On 29 October 2013 14:38, wrote: On this hatch mechanism the dogs pivot instead of sliding.? The arms?are threaded to adjust? the length turnbuckle style. > >For sliding dogs, beveling them where they contact the latch point allows them to progressively tighten as they move into place.? The latch points on the tower should either be replaceable or have replaceable wear plates.? That also allows you to change the thickness of the wear plates in order to?adjust the pressure of the hatch to the landing. >-Jim >-----Original Message-----From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 6:53 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods >anything like that would be ok by the looks of things.? That one is good because it only requires one through hull. >On 29 October 2013 11:25, Joe Perkel wrote: >James, >> >>2400 series, look for drawings at bottom of page for that series. The cast hatches are of no value to us but the mechanisms I believe are. >> >> >>Joe >> >>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>From: James Frankland ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 11:15:49 AM >>I cant see the one you mean Joe, is there a product number? >> >> >>On 29 October 2013 10:54, Joe Perkel wrote: >>James, >>>? >>>Ive given thought to the hatch in the past, take a look at freeman marine and look at the cam mechanism with dogs, http://www.freemanmarine.com/ProductsHatches.htm >>>? >>>Could not a rotating shaft pass through the center to both sides via same thru-hull as side thrusters, with a wheel on both sides and a similar cam mechanism on the inside? Upward Port moved a bit forward then, and beef up the hinge for extra weight as you said. >>>? >>>? >>>Joe >>>From: James Frankland >>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org; PSUBS Member Discussion Group >>>Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:55 AM >>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods >>> >>>Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 modifications. >>> >>>I would suggest these as critical. >>> >>>1.? Hatch.? Opening from both sides.? Worst part of the design I think. >>> >>>2.? Hatch bracket.? Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy.? Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on. >>> >>>3.? Variable tank mounting.? The way the tank mounts is awkward and doesnt allow any adjustment.? Much easier and better would be flat horizontal brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding flat brackets on the vbt.? Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow the tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to be fitted easily.? Also the tank could be just lifted up and on.? Very simple change. >>> >>>I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much trouble you want to go to and cosmetics. >>> >>>For example, >>> >>>I?changed the battery pod endcap seals.? I had a real pain trying to make them as per the plans.? The way i did them in the end with flanges was a lot easier.? But probably nothing wrong with the original design. >>> >>>Skids.? I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint knocked off.? Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design. >>> >>>I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless. >>> >>>Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones shown on the plans. >>> >>>The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good.? You could do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead?if you?didnt want to make too many. >>> >>>The dome of course. >>> >>>Overpressure valve. >>> >>>loads of little modifications. >>> >>> >>>I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming about subs! >>>Kind Regards >>>James_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CIMG3887.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 86676 bytes Desc: not available URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Tue Oct 29 14:17:13 2013 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 08:17:13 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58323E7398DB4DCE9367936F0F19AA6A@LandNSeaPC> I would like to see the complete set of drawings re done as the ones I got were so dark that I could not read certain items and had to call the Captain or Dan H for clarification. Also: Update the thrusters. Clarify certain items on the drawings that are vague or not spelled out. example, one drawing says the stern thruster is 1/2 HP and others say it is the 3 HP which it is, there are also a couple of threw hulls with no weld symbols. Another nice feature would be a material cut list for easy of ordering and making sure you ordered the proper quantity. Battery pods changed from original plans. I welded on flanges to both pipe end and end caps and used an O ring for sealing. less moving parts and eliminated the O ring threw hull he has on the end cap which is one less place a leak can occur. Omit view ports in stern, not sure why he put them back there. I moved them forward to the 10 & 2 o'clock position and added two more at the 8 & 4 o'clock position where the guy lying down could use them. Re cal?c the boat so that when done, she is balanced and buoyed properly and not have to add the 400 some odd lbs. to her after fabrication. Possibly increase the diameter of the MBT vent plumbing for a faster purge? simplify the outside linkage for opening the flood valve on the VBT. This may or may not have to do with the above but I would like to omit the plate that connects the pods to the hull and just use the pipe the drawing shows on each end to connect the two but this question would be for the Navel architects or engineers out there in the group to comment on. My reasoning for this is two fold, 1. to omit a place for water to collect on the high side of the plate to pod thusly increasing the time rust will show up there and have to be dealt with and 2. Causing a point load/stressor? in the skin of the battery pod?s and the pressure hull as you are putting a heck of a lot of heat in both and when the welds cool down, there is a pretty good stressor on both sides of the weld. I don?t think any K-350?s have imploded from this but the less stress I put on things the better I feel. Rick From: James Frankland Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 11:55 PM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org ; PSUBS Member Discussion Group Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 modifications. I would suggest these as critical. 1. Hatch. Opening from both sides. Worst part of the design I think. 2. Hatch bracket. Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy. Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on. 3. Variable tank mounting. The way the tank mounts is awkward and doesnt allow any adjustment. Much easier and better would be flat horizontal brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding flat brackets on the vbt. Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow the tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to be fitted easily. Also the tank could be just lifted up and on. Very simple change. I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much trouble you want to go to and cosmetics. For example, I changed the battery pod endcap seals. I had a real pain trying to make them as per the plans. The way i did them in the end with flanges was a lot easier. But probably nothing wrong with the original design. Skids. I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint knocked off. Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design. I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless. Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones shown on the plans. The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good. You could do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead if you didnt want to make too many. The dome of course. Overpressure valve. loads of little modifications. I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming about subs! Kind Regards James -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cgraca2 at gmail.com Tue Oct 29 14:33:03 2013 From: cgraca2 at gmail.com (Christopher Graca) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 13:33:03 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods In-Reply-To: <58323E7398DB4DCE9367936F0F19AA6A@LandNSeaPC> References: <58323E7398DB4DCE9367936F0F19AA6A@LandNSeaPC> Message-ID: If there are plans for a joint effort to update the K250 and 350 plans, I can assist with the 2D and 3D CAD work. -Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emile at airesearch.nl Tue Oct 29 17:12:00 2013 From: emile at airesearch.nl (Emile van Essen) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 22:12:00 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request In-Reply-To: <526EFEDD.4060103@psubs.org> Message-ID: Jon, Such a DPV (diver propulsion vehicle) cost abt. USD 6000,- I purchased the 12" Kort Nozzle used for USD 120,- Which was on the other hand the cheapest way to get one.. Emile _____ Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Jon Wallace Verzonden: dinsdag 29 oktober 2013 1:19 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Group Help Request I don't see any info on thrust or pricing at the gavin site. That likely translates into "expensive". Jon On 10/28/2013 5:17 PM, Emile van Essen wrote: That is more or less a toy.. This is better: http://www.gavinscootersfl.com/Large_Pics_of_Mini_G.html Mmm the whole unit can be used plug 'n play on a sub. Regards, Emile _____ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Tue Oct 29 20:05:22 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 17:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Message-ID: <1383091522.91170.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Im going to try to attach an image. Here is what Ive done for a MK 101 Kort Nozzle with .11 tip clearance for an 11" prop. ? I need to finalize body attachment, the streamlined ABS struts have threaded rods through them. ? Joe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Minn Kota Kort.jpg Type: image/pjpeg Size: 264448 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Tue Oct 29 20:41:27 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 17:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1383091522.91170.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1383091522.91170.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1383093687.89325.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe very nice Hank From: Joe Perkel To: Psubbers Mailist Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:05:22 PM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Im going to try to attach an image. Here is what Ive done for a MK 101 Kort Nozzle with .11 tip clearance for an 11" prop. I need to finalize body attachment, the streamlined ABS struts have threaded rods through them. Joe _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piolenc at archivale.com Tue Oct 29 22:05:38 2013 From: piolenc at archivale.com (Marc de Piolenc) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 10:05:38 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1383091522.91170.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1383091522.91170.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52706972.6040301@archivale.com> You're not making any change to the propeller? The shroud exit - does it taper inward (as the picture seems to show), exit parallel, or flare? Marc On 10/30/2013 8:05 AM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Im going to try to attach an image. Here is what Ive done for a MK 101 > Kort Nozzle with .11 tip clearance for an 11" prop. > I need to finalize body attachment, the streamlined ABS struts have > threaded rods through them. > Joe > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com/catalog Polymath weblog: http://www.archivale.com/weblog Translations (ProZ profile): http://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Translations (BeWords profile): http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc Ducted fans: http://massflow.archivale.com/ From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Tue Oct 29 22:22:43 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 15:22:43 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1383091522.91170.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1383091522.91170.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5C9A66AE-CB70-4077-B274-2808731D2C58@yahoo.com> Joe, I just sent you a photo of how I attached my kort nozzle. It might give you some ideas, it's 1.2mb so look out for it in your spam. Alan Sent from my iPad On 30/10/2013, at 1:05 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Im going to try to attach an image. Here is what Ive done for a MK 101 Kort Nozzle with .11 tip clearance for an 11" prop. > > I need to finalize body attachment, the streamlined ABS struts have threaded rods through them. > > Joe > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Tue Oct 29 23:27:54 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 20:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <5C9A66AE-CB70-4077-B274-2808731D2C58@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1383103674.34255.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Alan,

That's not going anywhere, quite snug and secure in there. What material is the webbing?

Is it possible to braze a tab on one of the MK's in order to thru bolt the concentric ring?

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com Wed Oct 30 01:45:01 2013 From: alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com (Alan) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 18:45:01 +1300 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1383103674.34255.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1383103674.34255.YahooMailIosMobile@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5895B96F-4EA3-4575-8910-BA397F555521@yahoo.com> Hi Joe, The struts from the kort nozzle to the sleeve that the motor fits in were made of balsa wood & covered with fibreglass. A bit time consuming trying to get a good finish. If I were making these again I think I would cast the kort nozzle out of aluminium using a lost foam method. ie. make several polystyrene nozzles on a lathe or CNC machine. Embed them in sand & cast into them. There are plenty of videos on this. Then CNC the struts & use the nearest standard aluminium pipe for the motor sleeve, & weld it all together. I think this method would lend itself to CAD construction. I have made a number of moulds in the past, but not for aluminium. Alan Sent from my iPad On 30/10/2013, at 4:27 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > > Alan, > > That's not going anywhere, quite snug and secure in there. What material is the webbing? > > Is it possible to braze a tab on one of the MK's in order to thru bolt the concentric ring? > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > From: Alan ; > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) > Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 2:22:43 AM > > Joe, > I just sent you a photo of how I attached my kort nozzle. > It might give you some ideas, it's 1.2mb so look out for it in your spam. > Alan > > Sent from my iPad > > On 30/10/2013, at 1:05 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >> Im going to try to attach an image. Here is what Ive done for a MK 101 Kort Nozzle with .11 tip clearance for an 11" prop. >> >> I need to finalize body attachment, the streamlined ABS struts have threaded rods through them. >> >> Joe >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Wed Oct 30 06:06:59 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 10:06:59 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms In-Reply-To: <1383070519.49727.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <8D0A2CB9FE4BDC0-1A30-D578@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> <1383070519.49727.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, How does the mechanism work? turning the wheel obviosly lifts the ends under the hatch lip. Dont suppose you have a dwg? Regards James On 29 October 2013 18:15, hank pronk wrote: > Jim, > that is exactly what I did with my k350 hatch. I didn't have tie rods yet > so I put adjusting bolts in the dogs. I intent to change to tie rods from > go carts. This is very easy to build. The slide system is the easiest to > fabricate though and less complicated. Gamma has slides. > Hank > > *From:* James Frankland > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:20:14 AM > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms > ** > Hi Jim. I reckon i took that picture! unless you took one almost > exactly the same! Its the lanzarote sub i think, i remember sending it to > someone, Brent i think. > > > ** > > On 29 October 2013 14:38, wrote:** > > On this hatch mechanism the dogs pivot instead of sliding. The > arms are threaded to adjust the length turnbuckle style. > > [image: CIMG3887.JPG] > For sliding dogs, beveling them where they contact the latch point allows > them to progressively tighten as they move into place. The latch points on > the tower should either be replaceable or have replaceable wear plates. > That also allows you to change the thickness of the wear plates in order > to adjust the pressure of the hatch to the landing. > -Jim > -----Original Message-----**From: James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>**To: Personal Submersibles General > Discussion **Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 > 6:53 am**Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods**** > anything like that would be ok by the looks of things. That one is good > because it only requires one through hull.**** > On 29 October 2013 11:25, Joe Perkel wrote:** > > James, > > 2400 series, look for drawings at bottom of page for that series. The cast > hatches are of no value to us but the mechanisms I believe are. > > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > ** > *From: *James Frankland ; ***To: *Personal > Submersibles General Discussion ; *** > Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods ***Sent: *Tue, Oct 29, 2013 > 11:15:49 AM ** > ** > I cant see the one you mean Joe, is there a product number? > > On 29 October 2013 10:54, Joe Perkel wrote:** > > James, > > Ive given thought to the hatch in the past, take a look at freeman marine > and look at the cam mechanism with dogs, > http://www.freemanmarine.com/ProductsHatches.htm > > Could not a rotating shaft pass through the center to both sides via same > thru-hull as side thrusters, with a wheel on both sides and a similar cam > mechanism on the inside? Upward Port moved a bit forward then, and beef > up the hinge for extra weight as you said. > > > Joe > ** > *From:* James Frankland > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org; PSUBS Member Discussion Group < > member-forum at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:55 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods > ** > Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 > modifications. > > I would suggest these as critical. > > 1. Hatch. Opening from both sides. Worst part of the design I think. > > 2. Hatch bracket. Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy. > Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on. > > 3. Variable tank mounting. The way the tank mounts is awkward and doesnt > allow any adjustment. Much easier and better would be flat horizontal > brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding flat > brackets on the vbt. Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow the > tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to be > fitted easily. Also the tank could be just lifted up and on. Very simple > change. > > I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much > trouble you want to go to and cosmetics. > > For example, > > I changed the battery pod endcap seals. I had a real pain trying to make > them as per the plans. The way i did them in the end with flanges was a > lot easier. But probably nothing wrong with the original design. > > Skids. I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint > knocked off. Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design. > > I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless. > > Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones > shown on the plans. > > The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good. You could > do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead if you didnt > want to make too many. > > The dome of course. > > Overpressure valve. > > loads of little modifications. > > > I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming > about subs! > Kind Regards > James > ** > _______________________________________________**Personal_Submersibles > mailing list**Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org** > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles****** > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > ** > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > ** > **_______________________________________________**Personal_Submersibles > mailing list**Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org** > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles****** > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CIMG3887.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 86676 bytes Desc: not available URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Wed Oct 30 07:40:10 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 04:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1383133210.61044.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Speaking of this hatch issue, would all this extra hardware present a head butting problem? How to deal with that? A more dished profile, or a slightly taller conning tower?

Joe

Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CIMG3887.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 86676 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Wed Oct 30 07:50:57 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 11:50:57 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms In-Reply-To: <1383133210.61044.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1383133210.61044.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: slightly lower seat! On 30 October 2013 11:40, Joe Perkel wrote: > Speaking of this hatch issue, would all this extra hardware present a > head butting problem? How to deal with that? A more dished profile, or a > slightly taller conning tower? > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > > ------------------------------ > *From: *James Frankland ; > *To: *Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org>; > *Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms > *Sent: *Wed, Oct 30, 2013 10:06:59 AM > > Hank, > How does the mechanism work? turning the wheel obviosly lifts the ends > under the hatch lip. Dont suppose you have a dwg? > Regards > James > > On 29 October 2013 18:15, hank pronk wrote: > >> Jim, >> that is exactly what I did with my k350 hatch. I didn't have tie rods >> yet so I put adjusting bolts in the dogs. I intent to change to tie rods >> from go carts. This is very easy to build. The slide system is the >> easiest to fabricate though and less complicated. Gamma has slides. >> Hank >> >> *From:* James Frankland >> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:20:14 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms >> ** >> Hi Jim. I reckon i took that picture! unless you took one almost >> exactly the same! Its the lanzarote sub i think, i remember sending it to >> someone, Brent i think. >> >> >> ** >> >> On 29 October 2013 14:38, wrote:** >> >> On this hatch mechanism the dogs pivot instead of sliding. The >> arms are threaded to adjust the length turnbuckle style. >> >> [image: CIMG3887.JPG] >> For sliding dogs, beveling them where they contact the latch point allows >> them to progressively tighten as they move into place. The latch points on >> the tower should either be replaceable or have replaceable wear plates. >> That also allows you to change the thickness of the wear plates in order >> to adjust the pressure of the hatch to the landing. >> -Jim >> -----Original Message-----**From: James Frankland < >> jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>**To: Personal Submersibles General >> Discussion **Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 >> 6:53 am**Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods**** >> anything like that would be ok by the looks of things. That one is good >> because it only requires one through hull.**** >> On 29 October 2013 11:25, Joe Perkel wrote:** >> >> James, >> >> 2400 series, look for drawings at bottom of page for that series. The >> cast hatches are of no value to us but the mechanisms I believe are. >> >> >> Joe >> >> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >> ** >> *From: *James Frankland ; ***To: *Personal >> Submersibles General Discussion ; *** >> Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods ***Sent: *Tue, Oct 29, 2013 >> 11:15:49 AM ** >> ** >> I cant see the one you mean Joe, is there a product number? >> >> On 29 October 2013 10:54, Joe Perkel wrote:** >> >> James, >> >> Ive given thought to the hatch in the past, take a look at freeman marine >> and look at the cam mechanism with dogs, >> http://www.freemanmarine.com/ProductsHatches.htm >> >> Could not a rotating shaft pass through the center to both sides via same >> thru-hull as side thrusters, with a wheel on both sides and a similar >> cam mechanism on the inside? Upward Port moved a bit forward then, and >> beef up the hinge for extra weight as you said. >> >> >> Joe >> ** >> *From:* James Frankland >> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org; PSUBS Member Discussion Group < >> member-forum at psubs.org> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:55 AM >> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods >> ** >> Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 >> modifications. >> >> I would suggest these as critical. >> >> 1. Hatch. Opening from both sides. Worst part of the design I think. >> >> 2. Hatch bracket. Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy. >> Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on. >> >> 3. Variable tank mounting. The way the tank mounts is awkward and >> doesnt allow any adjustment. Much easier and better would be flat >> horizontal brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding >> flat brackets on the vbt. Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow >> the tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to >> be fitted easily. Also the tank could be just lifted up and on. Very >> simple change. >> >> I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much >> trouble you want to go to and cosmetics. >> >> For example, >> >> I changed the battery pod endcap seals. I had a real pain trying to make >> them as per the plans. The way i did them in the end with flanges was a >> lot easier. But probably nothing wrong with the original design. >> >> Skids. I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint >> knocked off. Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design. >> >> I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless. >> >> Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones >> shown on the plans. >> >> The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good. You >> could do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead if >> you didnt want to make too many. >> >> The dome of course. >> >> Overpressure valve. >> >> loads of little modifications. >> >> >> I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming >> about subs! >> Kind Regards >> James >> ** >> _______________________________________________**Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list**Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org** >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles****** >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> ** >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> ** >> **_______________________________________________**Personal_Submersibles >> mailing list**Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org** >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles****** >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 30 07:59:24 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 04:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms In-Reply-To: References: <8D0A2CB9FE4BDC0-1A30-D578@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> <1383070519.49727.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1383134364.52297.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> James, I have to admit I cheated. I used a 3 jaw puller for the mechanism that raises and lowers the center hub.? The center hub drops down when you turn the rod.? That in turn pushes the tie rods outward pushing the dogs to pivot and press under the hatch land.? You can use go cart tie rods to adjust the dog position.? Then you don't need adjusting bolts like I have.? I have no drawings but I did post a picture on my project page. ? From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 4:06:59 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Hank, How does the mechanism work?? turning the wheel obviosly lifts the ends under the hatch lip.? Dont suppose you have a dwg? Regards James On 29 October 2013 18:15, hank pronk Jim, >that is exactly what I did with my k350 hatch.? I didn't have tie rods yet so I put adjusting bolts in the dogs.? I intent to change to tie rods from go carts.? This is very easy to build.? The slide system is the easiest to fabricate though and less complicated.? Gamma has slides. >Hank > > >From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:20:14 AMSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms >Hi Jim.? I reckon i took that picture!? unless you took one almost exactly the same!? Its the lanzarote sub i think, i remember sending it to someone, Brent i think. > > > >? >On 29 October 2013 14:38, wrote: >On this hatch mechanism the dogs pivot instead of sliding.? The arms?are threaded to adjust? the length turnbuckle style. >> >>For sliding dogs, beveling them where they contact the latch point allows them to progressively tighten as they move into place.? The latch points on the tower should either be replaceable or have replaceable wear plates.? That also allows you to change the thickness of the wear plates in order to?adjust the pressure of the hatch to the landing. >>-Jim >>-----Original Message-----From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 6:53 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods >>anything like that would be ok by the looks of things.? That one is good because it only requires one through hull. >>On 29 October 2013 11:25, Joe Perkel wrote: >>James, >>> >>>2400 series, look for drawings at bottom of page for that series. The cast hatches are of no value to us but the mechanisms I believe are. >>> >>> >>>Joe >>> >>>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>>From: James Frankland ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 11:15:49 AM >>>I cant see the one you mean Joe, is there a product number? >>>On 29 October 2013 10:54, Joe Perkel wrote: >>>James, >>>>? >>>>Ive given thought to the hatch in the past, take a look at freeman marine and look at the cam mechanism with dogs, http://www.freemanmarine.com/ProductsHatches.htm >>>>? >>>>Could not a rotating shaft pass through the center to both sides via same thru-hull as side thrusters, with a wheel on both sides and a similar cam mechanism on the inside? Upward Port moved a bit forward then, and beef up the hinge for extra weight as you said. >>>>? >>>>? >>>>Joe >>>>From: James Frankland >>>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org; PSUBS Member Discussion Group >>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:55 AM >>>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods >>>> >>>>Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 modifications. >>>> >>>>I would suggest these as critical. >>>> >>>>1.? Hatch.? Opening from both sides.? Worst part of the design I think. >>>> >>>>2.? Hatch bracket.? Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy.? Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on. >>>> >>>>3.? Variable tank mounting.? The way the tank mounts is awkward and doesnt allow any adjustment.? Much easier and better would be flat horizontal brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding flat brackets on the vbt.? Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow the tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to be fitted easily.? Also the tank could be just lifted up and on.? Very simple change. >>>> >>>>I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much trouble you want to go to and cosmetics. >>>> >>>>For example, >>>> >>>>I?changed the battery pod endcap seals.? I had a real pain trying to make them as per the plans.? The way i did them in the end with flanges was a lot easier.? But probably nothing wrong with the original design. >>>> >>>>Skids.? I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint knocked off.? Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design. >>>> >>>>I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless. >>>> >>>>Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones shown on the plans. >>>> >>>>The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good.? You could do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead?if you?didnt want to make too many. >>>> >>>>The dome of course. >>>> >>>>Overpressure valve. >>>> >>>>loads of little modifications. >>>> >>>> >>>>I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming about subs! >>>>Kind Regards >>>>James_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CIMG3887.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 86676 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 30 08:02:59 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 05:02:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms In-Reply-To: <1383133210.61044.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1383133210.61044.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1383134579.3557.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Joe, my hatch mechanism is all within the dish.? It is not a problem with a regular CT.?? From: Joe Perkel To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 5:40:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Speaking of this hatch issue, would all this extra hardware present a head butting problem? How to deal with that? A more dished profile, or a slightly taller conning tower? Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: James Frankland ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 10:06:59 AM Hank, How does the mechanism work?? turning the wheel obviosly lifts the ends under the hatch lip.? Dont suppose you have a dwg? Regards James On 29 October 2013 18:15, hank pronk wrote: Jim, >that is exactly what I did with my k350 hatch.? I didn't have tie rods yet so I put adjusting bolts in the dogs.? I intent to change to tie rods from go carts.? This is very easy to build.? The slide system is the easiest to fabricate though and less complicated.? Gamma has slides. >Hank >From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:20:14 AMSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms >Hi Jim.? I reckon i took that picture!? unless you took one almost exactly the same!? Its the lanzarote sub i think, i remember sending it to someone, Brent i think. > > >? >On 29 October 2013 14:38, wrote: >On this hatch mechanism the dogs pivot instead of sliding.? The arms?are threaded to adjust? the length turnbuckle style. >> >>For sliding dogs, beveling them where they contact the latch point allows them to progressively tighten as they move into place.? The latch points on the tower should either be replaceable or have replaceable wear plates.? That also allows you to change the thickness of the wear plates in order to?adjust the pressure of the hatch to the landing. >>-Jim >>-----Original Message-----From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 6:53 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods >>anything like that would be ok by the looks of things.? That one is good because it only requires one through hull. >>On 29 October 2013 11:25, Joe Perkel wrote: >>James, >>> >>>2400 series, look for drawings at bottom of page for that series. The cast hatches are of no value to us but the mechanisms I believe are. >>> >>> >>>Joe >>> >>>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>>From: James Frankland ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 11:15:49 AM >>>I cant see the one you mean Joe, is there a product number? >>>On 29 October 2013 10:54, Joe Perkel wrote: >>>James, >>>>? >>>>Ive given thought to the hatch in the past, take a look at freeman marine and look at the cam mechanism with dogs, http://www.freemanmarine.com/ProductsHatches.htm >>>>? >>>>Could not a rotating shaft pass through the center to both sides via same thru-hull as side thrusters, with a wheel on both sides and a similar cam mechanism on the inside? Upward Port moved a bit forward then, and beef up the hinge for extra weight as you said. >>>>? >>>>? >>>>Joe >>>>From: James Frankland >>>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org; PSUBS Member Discussion Group >>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:55 AM >>>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods >>>> >>>>Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 modifications. >>>> >>>>I would suggest these as critical. >>>> >>>>1.? Hatch.? Opening from both sides.? Worst part of the design I think. >>>> >>>>2.? Hatch bracket.? Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy.? Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on. >>>> >>>>3.? Variable tank mounting.? The way the tank mounts is awkward and doesnt allow any adjustment.? Much easier and better would be flat horizontal brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding flat brackets on the vbt.? Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow the tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to be fitted easily.? Also the tank could be just lifted up and on.? Very simple change. >>>> >>>>I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much trouble you want to go to and cosmetics. >>>> >>>>For example, >>>> >>>>I?changed the battery pod endcap seals.? I had a real pain trying to make them as per the plans.? The way i did them in the end with flanges was a lot easier.? But probably nothing wrong with the original design. >>>> >>>>Skids.? I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint knocked off.? Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design. >>>> >>>>I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless. >>>> >>>>Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones shown on the plans. >>>> >>>>The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good.? You could do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead?if you?didnt want to make too many. >>>> >>>>The dome of course. >>>> >>>>Overpressure valve. >>>> >>>>loads of little modifications. >>>> >>>> >>>>I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming about subs! >>>>Kind Regards >>>>James_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CIMG3887.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 86676 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jimtoddpsub at aol.com Wed Oct 30 08:13:10 2013 From: jimtoddpsub at aol.com (jimtoddpsub at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 08:13:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms In-Reply-To: References: <1383133210.61044.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8D0A3808870DF58-112C-162D3@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com> Checklist item: Proper tools onboard in the event a component of the hatch mechanism binds or breaks. -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 6:51 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms slightly lower seat! On 30 October 2013 11:40, Joe Perkel wrote: Speaking of this hatch issue, would all this extra hardware present a head butting problem? How to deal with that? A more dished profile, or a slightly taller conning tower? Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: James Frankland ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 10:06:59 AM Hank, How does the mechanism work? turning the wheel obviosly lifts the ends under the hatch lip. Dont suppose you have a dwg? Regards James On 29 October 2013 18:15, hank pronk wrote: Jim, that is exactly what I did with my k350 hatch. I didn't have tie rods yet so I put adjusting bolts in the dogs. I intent to change to tie rods from go carts. This is very easy to build. The slide system is the easiest to fabricate though and less complicated. Gamma has slides. Hank From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:20:14 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Hi Jim. I reckon i took that picture! unless you took one almost exactly the same! Its the lanzarote sub i think, i remember sending it to someone, Brent i think. On 29 October 2013 14:38, wrote: On this hatch mechanism the dogs pivot instead of sliding. The arms are threaded to adjust the length turnbuckle style. For sliding dogs, beveling them where they contact the latch point allows them to progressively tighten as they move into place. The latch points on the tower should either be replaceable or have replaceable wear plates. That also allows you to change the thickness of the wear plates in order to adjust the pressure of the hatch to the landing. -Jim -----Original Message-----From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 6:53 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods anything like that would be ok by the looks of things. That one is good because it only requires one through hull. On 29 October 2013 11:25, Joe Perkel wrote: James, 2400 series, look for drawings at bottom of page for that series. The cast hatches are of no value to us but the mechanisms I believe are. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: James Frankland ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 11:15:49 AM I cant see the one you mean Joe, is there a product number? On 29 October 2013 10:54, Joe Perkel wrote: James, Ive given thought to the hatch in the past, take a look at freeman marine and look at the cam mechanism with dogs, http://www.freemanmarine.com/ProductsHatches.htm Could not a rotating shaft pass through the center to both sides via same thru-hull as side thrusters, with a wheel on both sides and a similar cam mechanism on the inside? Upward Port moved a bit forward then, and beef up the hinge for extra weight as you said. Joe From: James Frankland To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org; PSUBS Member Discussion Group Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:55 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 modifications. I would suggest these as critical. 1. Hatch. Opening from both sides. Worst part of the design I think. 2. Hatch bracket. Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy. Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on. 3. Variable tank mounting. The way the tank mounts is awkward and doesnt allow any adjustment. Much easier and better would be flat horizontal brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding flat brackets on the vbt. Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow the tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to be fitted easily. Also the tank could be just lifted up and on. Very simple change. I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much trouble you want to go to and cosmetics. For example, I changed the battery pod endcap seals. I had a real pain trying to make them as per the plans. The way i did them in the end with flanges was a lot easier. But probably nothing wrong with the original design. Skids. I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint knocked off. Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design. I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless. Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones shown on the plans. The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good. You could do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead if you didnt want to make too many. The dome of course. Overpressure valve. loads of little modifications. I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming about subs! Kind Regards James _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 30 08:29:11 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 05:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms In-Reply-To: <8D0A3808870DF58-112C-162D3@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com> References: <1383133210.61044.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0A3808870DF58-112C-162D3@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1383136151.89236.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> James, The hatch picture is with new sub on the project page.? Hank From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:13:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Checklist item:? Proper tools onboard in the event a component of?the hatch mechanism binds or breaks. -----Original Message-----From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 6:51 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms slightly lower seat! On 30 October 2013 11:40, Joe Perkel wrote: Speaking of this hatch issue, would all this extra hardware present a head butting problem? How to deal with that? A more dished profile, or a slightly taller conning tower? > >JoeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >From: James Frankland ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 10:06:59 AM >Hank, >How does the mechanism work?? turning the wheel obviosly lifts the ends under the hatch lip.? Dont suppose you have a dwg? >Regards >James >On 29 October 2013 18:15, hank pronk wrote: >Jim, >>that is exactly what I did with my k350 hatch.? I didn't have tie rods yet so I put adjusting bolts in the dogs.? I intent to change to tie rods from go carts.? This is very easy to build.? The slide system is the easiest to fabricate though and less complicated.? Gamma has slides. >>Hank >>From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:20:14 AMSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms >>Hi Jim.? I reckon i took that picture!? unless you took one almost exactly the same!? Its the lanzarote sub i think, i remember sending it to someone, Brent i think. >> >> >>? >>On 29 October 2013 14:38, wrote: >>On this hatch mechanism the dogs pivot instead of sliding.? The arms?are threaded to adjust? the length turnbuckle style. >>> >>>For sliding dogs, beveling them where they contact the latch point allows them to progressively tighten as they move into place.? The latch points on the tower should either be replaceable or have replaceable wear plates.? That also allows you to change the thickness of the wear plates in order to?adjust the pressure of the hatch to the landing. >>>-Jim >>>-----Original Message-----From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 6:53 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods >>>anything like that would be ok by the looks of things.? That one is good because it only requires one through hull. >>>On 29 October 2013 11:25, Joe Perkel wrote: >>>James, >>>> >>>>2400 series, look for drawings at bottom of page for that series. The cast hatches are of no value to us but the mechanisms I believe are. >>>> >>>> >>>>Joe >>>> >>>>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>>>From: James Frankland ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 11:15:49 AM >>>>I cant see the one you mean Joe, is there a product number? >>>>On 29 October 2013 10:54, Joe Perkel wrote: >>>>James, >>>>>? >>>>>Ive given thought to the hatch in the past, take a look at freeman marine and look at the cam mechanism with dogs, http://www.freemanmarine.com/ProductsHatches.htm >>>>>? >>>>>Could not a rotating shaft pass through the center to both sides via same thru-hull as side thrusters, with a wheel on both sides and a similar cam mechanism on the inside? Upward Port moved a bit forward then, and beef up the hinge for extra weight as you said. >>>>>? >>>>>? >>>>>Joe >>>>>From: James Frankland >>>>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org; PSUBS Member Discussion Group >>>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:55 AM >>>>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods >>>>> >>>>>Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 modifications. >>>>> >>>>>I would suggest these as critical. >>>>> >>>>>1.? Hatch.? Opening from both sides.? Worst part of the design I think. >>>>> >>>>>2.? Hatch bracket.? Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy.? Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on. >>>>> >>>>>3.? Variable tank mounting.? The way the tank mounts is awkward and doesnt allow any adjustment.? Much easier and better would be flat horizontal brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding flat brackets on the vbt.? Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow the tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to be fitted easily.? Also the tank could be just lifted up and on.? Very simple change. >>>>> >>>>>I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much trouble you want to go to and cosmetics. >>>>> >>>>>For example, >>>>> >>>>>I?changed the battery pod endcap seals.? I had a real pain trying to make them as per the plans.? The way i did them in the end with flanges was a lot easier.? But probably nothing wrong with the original design. >>>>> >>>>>Skids.? I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint knocked off.? Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design. >>>>> >>>>>I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless. >>>>> >>>>>Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones shown on the plans. >>>>> >>>>>The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good.? You could do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead?if you?didnt want to make too many. >>>>> >>>>>The dome of course. >>>>> >>>>>Overpressure valve. >>>>> >>>>>loads of little modifications. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming about subs! >>>>>Kind Regards >>>>>James_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com Wed Oct 30 09:52:05 2013 From: jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com (James Frankland) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 13:52:05 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms In-Reply-To: <1383136151.89236.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1383133210.61044.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0A3808870DF58-112C-162D3@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com> <1383136151.89236.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, Looks like a nice simple solution. Thanks for sharing that one. I've got loads of flywheel pullers and the like that could be adapted. Regards James On 30 October 2013 12:29, hank pronk wrote: > James, > The hatch picture is with new sub on the project page. > Hank > > *From:* "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:13:10 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms > ** > Checklist item: Proper tools onboard in the event a component of the > hatch mechanism binds or breaks. > -----Original Message-----**From: James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>**To: Personal Submersibles General > Discussion **Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 > 6:51 am**Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms**** > slightly lower seat!**** > On 30 October 2013 11:40, Joe Perkel wrote:** > > Speaking of this hatch issue, would all this extra hardware present a > head butting problem? How to deal with that? A more dished profile, or a > slightly taller conning tower? > **Joe****Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > ** > *From: *James Frankland ; ***To: *Personal > Submersibles General Discussion ; ** > *Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms ***Sent: *Wed, Oct 30, > 2013 10:06:59 AM ** > ** > Hank, > How does the mechanism work? turning the wheel obviosly lifts the ends > under the hatch lip. Dont suppose you have a dwg? > Regards > James**** > On 29 October 2013 18:15, hank pronk wrote:** > > Jim, > that is exactly what I did with my k350 hatch. I didn't have tie rods yet > so I put adjusting bolts in the dogs. I intent to change to tie rods from > go carts. This is very easy to build. The slide system is the easiest to > fabricate though and less complicated. Gamma has slides. > Hank > ** > *From:* James Frankland ***To:* Personal > Submersibles General Discussion ** > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:20:14 AM***Subject:* Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms** > ** > Hi Jim. I reckon i took that picture! unless you took one almost > exactly the same! Its the lanzarote sub i think, i remember sending it to > someone, Brent i think. > > > **** > On 29 October 2013 14:38, wrote:** > > On this hatch mechanism the dogs pivot instead of sliding. The > arms are threaded to adjust the length turnbuckle style. > > [image: CIMG3887.JPG] > For sliding dogs, beveling them where they contact the latch point allows > them to progressively tighten as they move into place. The latch points on > the tower should either be replaceable or have replaceable wear plates. > That also allows you to change the thickness of the wear plates in order > to adjust the pressure of the hatch to the landing. > -Jim > -----Original Message-----**From: James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>**To: Personal Submersibles General > Discussion **Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 > 6:53 am**Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods**** > anything like that would be ok by the looks of things. That one is > good because it only requires one through hull.**** > On 29 October 2013 11:25, Joe Perkel wrote:** > > James, > > 2400 series, look for drawings at bottom of page for that series. The cast > hatches are of no value to us but the mechanisms I believe are. > > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > ** > *From: *James Frankland ; ***To: *Personal > Submersibles General Discussion ; *** > Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods ***Sent: *Tue, Oct 29, 2013 > 11:15:49 AM ** > ** > I cant see the one you mean Joe, is there a product number?**** > On 29 October 2013 10:54, Joe Perkel wrote:** > > James, > > Ive given thought to the hatch in the past, take a look at freeman marine > and look at the cam mechanism with dogs, > http://www.freemanmarine.com/ProductsHatches.htm > > Could not a rotating shaft pass through the center to both sides via same > thru-hull as side thrusters, with a wheel on both sides and a similar cam > mechanism on the inside? Upward Port moved a bit forward then, and beef > up the hinge for extra weight as you said. > > > Joe > ** > *From:* James Frankland > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org; PSUBS Member Discussion Group < > member-forum at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:55 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods > ** > Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 > modifications. > > I would suggest these as critical. > > 1. Hatch. Opening from both sides. Worst part of the design I think. > > 2. Hatch bracket. Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy. > Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on. > > 3. Variable tank mounting. The way the tank mounts is awkward and doesnt > allow any adjustment. Much easier and better would be flat horizontal > brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding flat > brackets on the vbt. Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow the > tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to be > fitted easily. Also the tank could be just lifted up and on. Very simple > change. > > I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much > trouble you want to go to and cosmetics. > > For example, > > I changed the battery pod endcap seals. I had a real pain trying to make > them as per the plans. The way i did them in the end with flanges was a > lot easier. But probably nothing wrong with the original design. > > Skids. I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint > knocked off. Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design. > > I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless. > > Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones > shown on the plans. > > The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good. You could > do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead if you didnt > want to make too many. > > The dome of course. > > Overpressure valve. > > loads of little modifications. > > > I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming > about subs! > Kind Regards > James > ** > _______________________________________________**Personal_Submersibles > mailing list**Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org** > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles****** > **_______________________________________________**Personal_Submersibles > mailing list**Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org** > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles**** > > > **_______________________________________________**Personal_Submersibles > mailing list**Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org** > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles**** > > ** > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > **_______________________________________________**Personal_Submersibles > mailing list**Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org** > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles**** > > ** > **_______________________________________________**Personal_Submersibles > mailing list**Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org** > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles****** > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > ** > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > **_______________________________________________**Personal_Submersibles > mailing list**Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org** > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles****** > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 30 10:37:12 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 07:37:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms In-Reply-To: References: <1383133210.61044.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0A3808870DF58-112C-162D3@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com> <1383136151.89236.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1383143832.42475.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> James, It's like the puller was made for it.? Be aware though, with the fine thread it is slow to unlatch.? A real coarse thread, would be faster.? My original idea was to use a scissor jack threaded rod and nut. Hank From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:52:05 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Hank, Looks like a nice simple solution.? Thanks for sharing that one.? I've got loads of flywheel pullers and the like that could be adapted. Regards James On 30 October 2013 12:29, hank pronk wrote: James, >The hatch picture is with new sub on the project page.? >Hank > > >From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" >To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:13:10 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms >Checklist item:? Proper tools onboard in the event a component of?the hatch mechanism binds or breaks. >-----Original Message-----From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 6:51 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms >slightly lower seat! >On 30 October 2013 11:40, Joe Perkel wrote: >Speaking of this hatch issue, would all this extra hardware present a head butting problem? How to deal with that? A more dished profile, or a slightly taller conning tower? >>JoeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>From: James Frankland ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 10:06:59 AM >>Hank, >>How does the mechanism work?? turning the wheel obviosly lifts the ends under the hatch lip.? Dont suppose you have a dwg? >>Regards >>James >>On 29 October 2013 18:15, hank pronk wrote: >>Jim, >>>that is exactly what I did with my k350 hatch.? I didn't have tie rods yet so I put adjusting bolts in the dogs.? I intent to change to tie rods from go carts.? This is very easy to build.? The slide system is the easiest to fabricate though and less complicated.? Gamma has slides. >>>Hank >>>From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:20:14 AMSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms >>>Hi Jim.? I reckon i took that picture!? unless you took one almost exactly the same!? Its the lanzarote sub i think, i remember sending it to someone, Brent i think. >>> >>> >>>? >>>On 29 October 2013 14:38, wrote: >>>On this hatch mechanism the dogs pivot instead of sliding.? The arms?are threaded to adjust? the length turnbuckle style. >>>> >>>>For sliding dogs, beveling them where they contact the latch point allows them to progressively tighten as they move into place.? The latch points on the tower should either be replaceable or have replaceable wear plates.? That also allows you to change the thickness of the wear plates in order to?adjust the pressure of the hatch to the landing. >>>>-Jim >>>>-----Original Message-----From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 6:53 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods >>>>anything like that would be ok by the looks of things.? That one is good because it only requires one through hull. >>>>On 29 October 2013 11:25, Joe Perkel wrote: >>>>James, >>>>> >>>>>2400 series, look for drawings at bottom of page for that series. The cast hatches are of no value to us but the mechanisms I believe are. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Joe >>>>> >>>>>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>>>>From: James Frankland ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 11:15:49 AM >>>>>I cant see the one you mean Joe, is there a product number? >>>>>On 29 October 2013 10:54, Joe Perkel wrote: >>>>>James, >>>>>>? >>>>>>Ive given thought to the hatch in the past, take a look at freeman marine and look at the cam mechanism with dogs, http://www.freemanmarine.com/ProductsHatches.htm >>>>>>? >>>>>>Could not a rotating shaft pass through the center to both sides via same thru-hull as side thrusters, with a wheel on both sides and a similar cam mechanism on the inside? Upward Port moved a bit forward then, and beef up the hinge for extra weight as you said. >>>>>>? >>>>>>? >>>>>>Joe >>>>>>From: James Frankland >>>>>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org; PSUBS Member Discussion Group >>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:55 AM >>>>>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods >>>>>> >>>>>>Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 modifications. >>>>>> >>>>>>I would suggest these as critical. >>>>>> >>>>>>1.? Hatch.? Opening from both sides.? Worst part of the design I think. >>>>>> >>>>>>2.? Hatch bracket.? Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy.? Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on. >>>>>> >>>>>>3.? Variable tank mounting.? The way the tank mounts is awkward and doesnt allow any adjustment.? Much easier and better would be flat horizontal brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding flat brackets on the vbt.? Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow the tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to be fitted easily.? Also the tank could be just lifted up and on.? Very simple change. >>>>>> >>>>>>I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much trouble you want to go to and cosmetics. >>>>>> >>>>>>For example, >>>>>> >>>>>>I?changed the battery pod endcap seals.? I had a real pain trying to make them as per the plans.? The way i did them in the end with flanges was a lot easier.? But probably nothing wrong with the original design. >>>>>> >>>>>>Skids.? I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint knocked off.? Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design. >>>>>> >>>>>>I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless. >>>>>> >>>>>>Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones shown on the plans. >>>>>> >>>>>>The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good.? You could do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead?if you?didnt want to make too many. >>>>>> >>>>>>The dome of course. >>>>>> >>>>>>Overpressure valve. >>>>>> >>>>>>loads of little modifications. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming about subs! >>>>>>Kind Regards >>>>>>James_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > >_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alecsmyth at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 11:31:43 2013 From: alecsmyth at gmail.com (Alec Smyth) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 11:31:43 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms In-Reply-To: <1383143832.42475.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1383133210.61044.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0A3808870DF58-112C-162D3@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com> <1383136151.89236.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1383143832.42475.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Can one drill out the puller thread and cut a new slightly larger one in coarse thread? On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 10:37 AM, hank pronk wrote: > James, > It's like the puller was made for it. Be aware though, with the fine > thread it is slow to unlatch. A real coarse thread, would be faster. My > original idea was to use a scissor jack threaded rod and nut. > Hank > > *From:* James Frankland > *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:52:05 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms > ** > Hank, > Looks like a nice simple solution. Thanks for sharing that one. I've got > loads of flywheel pullers and the like that could be adapted. > Regards > James** > On 30 October 2013 12:29, hank pronk wrote:** > > James, > The hatch picture is with new sub on the project page. > Hank > > *From:* "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:13:10 AM > ***Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms** > ** > Checklist item: Proper tools onboard in the event a component of the > hatch mechanism binds or breaks. > -----Original Message-----**From: James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>**To: Personal Submersibles General > Discussion **Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 > 6:51 am**Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms**** > slightly lower seat!**** > On 30 October 2013 11:40, Joe Perkel wrote:** > > Speaking of this hatch issue, would all this extra hardware present a > head butting problem? How to deal with that? A more dished profile, or a > slightly taller conning tower? ** > **Joe****Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > ** > *From: *James Frankland ; ***To: *Personal > Submersibles General Discussion ; ** > *Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms ***Sent: *Wed, Oct 30, > 2013 10:06:59 AM ** > ** > Hank, > How does the mechanism work? turning the wheel obviosly lifts the ends > under the hatch lip. Dont suppose you have a dwg? > Regards > James**** > On 29 October 2013 18:15, hank pronk wrote:** > > Jim, > that is exactly what I did with my k350 hatch. I didn't have tie rods yet > so I put adjusting bolts in the dogs. I intent to change to tie rods from > go carts. This is very easy to build. The slide system is the easiest to > fabricate though and less complicated. Gamma has slides. > Hank > ** > *From:* James Frankland ***To:* Personal > Submersibles General Discussion ** > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:20:14 AM***Subject:* Re: > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms** > ** > Hi Jim. I reckon i took that picture! unless you took one almost > exactly the same! Its the lanzarote sub i think, i remember sending it to > someone, Brent i think. > > > **** > On 29 October 2013 14:38, wrote:** > > On this hatch mechanism the dogs pivot instead of sliding. The > arms are threaded to adjust the length turnbuckle style. > > [image: CIMG3887.JPG] > For sliding dogs, beveling them where they contact the latch point allows > them to progressively tighten as they move into place. The latch points on > the tower should either be replaceable or have replaceable wear plates. > That also allows you to change the thickness of the wear plates in order > to adjust the pressure of the hatch to the landing. > -Jim > -----Original Message-----**From: James Frankland < > jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com>**To: Personal Submersibles General > Discussion **Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 > 6:53 am**Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods**** > anything like that would be ok by the looks of things. That one is > good because it only requires one through hull.**** > On 29 October 2013 11:25, Joe Perkel wrote:** > > James, > > 2400 series, look for drawings at bottom of page for that series. The cast > hatches are of no value to us but the mechanisms I believe are. > > > Joe > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad > ** > *From: *James Frankland ; ***To: *Personal > Submersibles General Discussion ; *** > Subject: *Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods ***Sent: *Tue, Oct 29, 2013 > 11:15:49 AM ** > ** > I cant see the one you mean Joe, is there a product number?**** > On 29 October 2013 10:54, Joe Perkel wrote:** > > James, > > Ive given thought to the hatch in the past, take a look at freeman marine > and look at the cam mechanism with dogs, > http://www.freemanmarine.com/ProductsHatches.htm > > Could not a rotating shaft pass through the center to both sides via same > thru-hull as side thrusters, with a wheel on both sides and a similar cam > mechanism on the inside? Upward Port moved a bit forward then, and beef > up the hinge for extra weight as you said. > > > Joe > ** > *From:* James Frankland > *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org; PSUBS Member Discussion Group < > member-forum at psubs.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:55 AM > *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods > ** > Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 > modifications. > > I would suggest these as critical. > > 1. Hatch. Opening from both sides. Worst part of the design I think. > > 2. Hatch bracket. Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy. > Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on. > > 3. Variable tank mounting. The way the tank mounts is awkward and doesnt > allow any adjustment. Much easier and better would be flat horizontal > brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding flat > brackets on the vbt. Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow the > tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to be > fitted easily. Also the tank could be just lifted up and on. Very simple > change. > > I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much > trouble you want to go to and cosmetics. > > For example, > > I changed the battery pod endcap seals. I had a real pain trying to make > them as per the plans. The way i did them in the end with flanges was a > lot easier. But probably nothing wrong with the original design. > > Skids. I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint > knocked off. Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design. > > I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless. > > Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones > shown on the plans. > > The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good. You could > do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead if you didnt > want to make too many. > > The dome of course. > > Overpressure valve. > > loads of little modifications. > > > I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming > about subs! > Kind Regards > James > ** > _______________________________________________**Personal_Submersibles > mailing list**Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org** > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles****** > **_______________________________________________**Personal_Submersibles > mailing list**Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org** > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles**** > > > **_______________________________________________**Personal_Submersibles > mailing list**Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org** > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles**** > > ** > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > **_______________________________________________**Personal_Submersibles > mailing list**Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org** > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles**** > > ** > **_______________________________________________**Personal_Submersibles > mailing list**Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org** > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles****** > **_______________________________________________**Personal_Submersibles > mailing list**Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org** > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles**** > > > **_______________________________________________**Personal_Submersibles > mailing list**Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org** > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles**** > > ** > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > **_______________________________________________**Personal_Submersibles > mailing list**Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org** > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles****** > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > ** > **_______________________________________________**Personal_Submersibles > mailing list**Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org** > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles****** > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 30 12:53:07 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 09:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms In-Reply-To: References: <1383133210.61044.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0A3808870DF58-112C-162D3@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com> <1383136151.89236.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1383143832.42475.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1383151987.11097.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Since the force on the puller hub is directed outward in this application, the loss of material for an oversize size rod?should not matter.? Hank From: Alec Smyth To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 9:31:43 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Can one drill out the puller thread and cut a new slightly larger one in coarse thread? On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 10:37 AM, hank pronk wrote: James, >It's like the puller was made for it.? Be aware though, with the fine thread it is slow to unlatch.? A real coarse thread, would be faster.? My original idea was to use a scissor jack threaded rod and nut. >Hank > > >From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:52:05 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms >Hank, >Looks like a nice simple solution.? Thanks for sharing that one.? I've got loads of flywheel pullers and the like that could be adapted. >Regards >James > >On 30 October 2013 12:29, hank pronk wrote: >James, >>The hatch picture is with new sub on the project page.? >>Hank >> >> >>From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" >>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:13:10 AM >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms >>Checklist item:? Proper tools onboard in the event a component of?the hatch mechanism binds or breaks. >>-----Original Message-----From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 6:51 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms >>slightly lower seat! >>On 30 October 2013 11:40, Joe Perkel wrote: >>Speaking of this hatch issue, would all this extra hardware present a head butting problem? How to deal with that? A more dished profile, or a slightly taller conning tower? >>>JoeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>>From: James Frankland ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 10:06:59 AM >>>Hank, >>>How does the mechanism work?? turning the wheel obviosly lifts the ends under the hatch lip.? Dont suppose you have a dwg? >>>Regards >>>James >>>On 29 October 2013 18:15, hank pronk wrote: >>>Jim, >>>>that is exactly what I did with my k350 hatch.? I didn't have tie rods yet so I put adjusting bolts in the dogs.? I intent to change to tie rods from go carts.? This is very easy to build.? The slide system is the easiest to fabricate though and less complicated.? Gamma has slides. >>>>Hank >>>>From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:20:14 AMSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms >>>>Hi Jim.? I reckon i took that picture!? unless you took one almost exactly the same!? Its the lanzarote sub i think, i remember sending it to someone, Brent i think. >>>> >>>> >>>>? >>>>On 29 October 2013 14:38, wrote: >>>>On this hatch mechanism the dogs pivot instead of sliding.? The arms?are threaded to adjust? the length turnbuckle style. >>>>> >>>>>For sliding dogs, beveling them where they contact the latch point allows them to progressively tighten as they move into place.? The latch points on the tower should either be replaceable or have replaceable wear plates.? That also allows you to change the thickness of the wear plates in order to?adjust the pressure of the hatch to the landing. >>>>>-Jim >>>>>-----Original Message-----From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 6:53 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods >>>>>anything like that would be ok by the looks of things.? That one is good because it only requires one through hull. >>>>>On 29 October 2013 11:25, Joe Perkel wrote: >>>>>James, >>>>>> >>>>>>2400 series, look for drawings at bottom of page for that series. The cast hatches are of no value to us but the mechanisms I believe are. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Joe >>>>>> >>>>>>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>>>>>From: James Frankland ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 11:15:49 AM >>>>>>I cant see the one you mean Joe, is there a product number? >>>>>>On 29 October 2013 10:54, Joe Perkel wrote: >>>>>>James, >>>>>>>? >>>>>>>Ive given thought to the hatch in the past, take a look at freeman marine and look at the cam mechanism with dogs, http://www.freemanmarine.com/ProductsHatches.htm >>>>>>>? >>>>>>>Could not a rotating shaft pass through the center to both sides via same thru-hull as side thrusters, with a wheel on both sides and a similar cam mechanism on the inside? Upward Port moved a bit forward then, and beef up the hinge for extra weight as you said. >>>>>>>? >>>>>>>? >>>>>>>Joe >>>>>>>From: James Frankland >>>>>>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org; PSUBS Member Discussion Group >>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:55 AM >>>>>>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 modifications. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I would suggest these as critical. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>1.? Hatch.? Opening from both sides.? Worst part of the design I think. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>2.? Hatch bracket.? Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy.? Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>3.? Variable tank mounting.? The way the tank mounts is awkward and doesnt allow any adjustment.? Much easier and better would be flat horizontal brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding flat brackets on the vbt.? Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow the tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to be fitted easily.? Also the tank could be just lifted up and on.? Very simple change. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much trouble you want to go to and cosmetics. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>For example, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I?changed the battery pod endcap seals.? I had a real pain trying to make them as per the plans.? The way i did them in the end with flanges was a lot easier.? But probably nothing wrong with the original design. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Skids.? I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint knocked off.? Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones shown on the plans. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good.? You could do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead?if you?didnt want to make too many. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The dome of course. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Overpressure valve. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>loads of little modifications. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming about subs! >>>>>>>Kind Regards >>>>>>>James_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 30 19:45:37 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 16:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber In-Reply-To: <1383151987.11097.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1383133210.61044.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0A3808870DF58-112C-162D3@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com> <1383136151.89236.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1383143832.42475.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1383151987.11097.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1383176737.71189.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Today I built a window pressure test chamber.? When the window is in the chamber there is a small air space remaining.? Should that space be filled with water while the window is under pressure.?The space is about 250ml. Hank From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:53:07 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Since the force on the puller hub is directed outward in this application, the loss of material for an oversize size rod?should not matter.? Hank From: Alec Smyth To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 9:31:43 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Can one drill out the puller thread and cut a new slightly larger one in coarse thread? On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 10:37 AM, hank pronk wrote: James, >It's like the puller was made for it.? Be aware though, with the fine thread it is slow to unlatch.? A real coarse thread, would be faster.? My original idea was to use a scissor jack threaded rod and nut. >Hank > > >From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:52:05 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms >Hank, >Looks like a nice simple solution.? Thanks for sharing that one.? I've got loads of flywheel pullers and the like that could be adapted. >Regards >James > >On 30 October 2013 12:29, hank pronk wrote: >James, >>The hatch picture is with new sub on the project page.? >>Hank >> >> >>From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" >>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:13:10 AM >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms >>Checklist item:? Proper tools onboard in the event a component of?the hatch mechanism binds or breaks. >>-----Original Message-----From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 6:51 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms >>slightly lower seat! >>On 30 October 2013 11:40, Joe Perkel wrote: >>Speaking of this hatch issue, would all this extra hardware present a head butting problem? How to deal with that? A more dished profile, or a slightly taller conning tower? >>>JoeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>>From: James Frankland ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 10:06:59 AM >>>Hank, >>>How does the mechanism work?? turning the wheel obviosly lifts the ends under the hatch lip.? Dont suppose you have a dwg? >>>Regards >>>James >>>On 29 October 2013 18:15, hank pronk wrote: >>>Jim, >>>>that is exactly what I did with my k350 hatch.? I didn't have tie rods yet so I put adjusting bolts in the dogs.? I intent to change to tie rods from go carts.? This is very easy to build.? The slide system is the easiest to fabricate though and less complicated.? Gamma has slides. >>>>Hank >>>>From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:20:14 AMSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms >>>>Hi Jim.? I reckon i took that picture!? unless you took one almost exactly the same!? Its the lanzarote sub i think, i remember sending it to someone, Brent i think. >>>> >>>> >>>>? >>>>On 29 October 2013 14:38, wrote: >>>>On this hatch mechanism the dogs pivot instead of sliding.? The arms?are threaded to adjust? the length turnbuckle style. >>>>> >>>>>For sliding dogs, beveling them where they contact the latch point allows them to progressively tighten as they move into place.? The latch points on the tower should either be replaceable or have replaceable wear plates.? That also allows you to change the thickness of the wear plates in order to?adjust the pressure of the hatch to the landing. >>>>>-Jim >>>>>-----Original Message-----From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 6:53 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods >>>>>anything like that would be ok by the looks of things.? That one is good because it only requires one through hull. >>>>>On 29 October 2013 11:25, Joe Perkel wrote: >>>>>James, >>>>>> >>>>>>2400 series, look for drawings at bottom of page for that series. The cast hatches are of no value to us but the mechanisms I believe are. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Joe >>>>>> >>>>>>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>>>>>From: James Frankland ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 11:15:49 AM >>>>>>I cant see the one you mean Joe, is there a product number? >>>>>>On 29 October 2013 10:54, Joe Perkel wrote: >>>>>>James, >>>>>>>? >>>>>>>Ive given thought to the hatch in the past, take a look at freeman marine and look at the cam mechanism with dogs, http://www.freemanmarine.com/ProductsHatches.htm >>>>>>>? >>>>>>>Could not a rotating shaft pass through the center to both sides via same thru-hull as side thrusters, with a wheel on both sides and a similar cam mechanism on the inside? Upward Port moved a bit forward then, and beef up the hinge for extra weight as you said. >>>>>>>? >>>>>>>? >>>>>>>Joe >>>>>>>From: James Frankland >>>>>>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org; PSUBS Member Discussion Group >>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:55 AM >>>>>>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 modifications. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I would suggest these as critical. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>1.? Hatch.? Opening from both sides.? Worst part of the design I think. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>2.? Hatch bracket.? Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy.? Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>3.? Variable tank mounting.? The way the tank mounts is awkward and doesnt allow any adjustment.? Much easier and better would be flat horizontal brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding flat brackets on the vbt.? Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow the tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to be fitted easily.? Also the tank could be just lifted up and on.? Very simple change. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much trouble you want to go to and cosmetics. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>For example, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I?changed the battery pod endcap seals.? I had a real pain trying to make them as per the plans.? The way i did them in the end with flanges was a lot easier.? But probably nothing wrong with the original design. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Skids.? I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint knocked off.? Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones shown on the plans. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good.? You could do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead?if you?didnt want to make too many. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The dome of course. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Overpressure valve. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>loads of little modifications. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming about subs! >>>>>>>Kind Regards >>>>>>>James_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seaquestor at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 19:53:00 2013 From: seaquestor at gmail.com (David Colombo) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 16:53:00 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydraulic oils Message-ID: Hi Guys, I am working with my Bio mimicry engineer on a component that will use a hydraulic oil. Being concerned about the environment, I am wondering if anyone has any experience with any of the following oils. Any input would be appreciated. ? HETG ? hydraulic environmental triglyceride (water insoluble triglycerides), ? HEES ? hydraulic environmental ester synthetic (water insoluble synthetic ester), ? HEPG ? hydraulic environmental poly glycol (water soluble poly alkylene glycol [PAG]), and ? HEPR ? hydraulic environmental polyalphaolefin and related fluids (water insoluble poly alpha olefins [PAO] and related hydrocarbon-based fluids). Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Wed Oct 30 20:37:15 2013 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 14:37:15 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber In-Reply-To: <1383176737.71189.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1383133210.61044.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0A3808870DF58-112C-162D3@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com> <1383136151.89236.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1383143832.42475.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1383151987.11097.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1383176737.71189.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Back in my diving days our company retested a couple of deck chambers and they filled them completely with water leaving no air at all so if it ruptured, there would be little or no bang. If you are testing it to failure then I guess you would still need some air on the LP side so you are back to an air gap. Get a long hose with the valve on your end and stand outside the building and peek around the corner. Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 1:45 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber Today I built a window pressure test chamber. When the window is in the chamber there is a small air space remaining. Should that space be filled with water while the window is under pressure. The space is about 250ml. Hank From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:53:07 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Since the force on the puller hub is directed outward in this application, the loss of material for an oversize size rod should not matter. Hank From: Alec Smyth To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 9:31:43 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Can one drill out the puller thread and cut a new slightly larger one in coarse thread? On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 10:37 AM, hank pronk wrote: James, It's like the puller was made for it. Be aware though, with the fine thread it is slow to unlatch. A real coarse thread, would be faster. My original idea was to use a scissor jack threaded rod and nut. Hank From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:52:05 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Hank, Looks like a nice simple solution. Thanks for sharing that one. I've got loads of flywheel pullers and the like that could be adapted. Regards James On 30 October 2013 12:29, hank pronk wrote: James, The hatch picture is with new sub on the project page. Hank From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:13:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Checklist item: Proper tools onboard in the event a component of the hatch mechanism binds or breaks. -----Original Message-----From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 6:51 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms slightly lower seat! On 30 October 2013 11:40, Joe Perkel wrote: Speaking of this hatch issue, would all this extra hardware present a head butting problem? How to deal with that? A more dished profile, or a slightly taller conning tower? JoeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: James Frankland ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 10:06:59 AM Hank, How does the mechanism work? turning the wheel obviosly lifts the ends under the hatch lip. Dont suppose you have a dwg? Regards James On 29 October 2013 18:15, hank pronk wrote: Jim, that is exactly what I did with my k350 hatch. I didn't have tie rods yet so I put adjusting bolts in the dogs. I intent to change to tie rods from go carts. This is very easy to build. The slide system is the easiest to fabricate though and less complicated. Gamma has slides. Hank From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:20:14 AMSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Hi Jim. I reckon i took that picture! unless you took one almost exactly the same! Its the lanzarote sub i think, i remember sending it to someone, Brent i think. On 29 October 2013 14:38, wrote: On this hatch mechanism the dogs pivot instead of sliding. The arms are threaded to adjust the length turnbuckle style. For sliding dogs, beveling them where they contact the latch point allows them to progressively tighten as they move into place. The latch points on the tower should either be replaceable or have replaceable wear plates. That also allows you to change the thickness of the wear plates in order to adjust the pressure of the hatch to the landing. -Jim -----Original Message-----From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 6:53 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods anything like that would be ok by the looks of things. That one is good because it only requires one through hull. On 29 October 2013 11:25, Joe Perkel wrote: James, 2400 series, look for drawings at bottom of page for that series. The cast hatches are of no value to us but the mechanisms I believe are. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: James Frankland ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 11:15:49 AM I cant see the one you mean Joe, is there a product number? On 29 October 2013 10:54, Joe Perkel wrote: James, Ive given thought to the hatch in the past, take a look at freeman marine and look at the cam mechanism with dogs, http://www.freemanmarine.com/ProductsHatches.htm Could not a rotating shaft pass through the center to both sides via same thru-hull as side thrusters, with a wheel on both sides and a similar cam mechanism on the inside? Upward Port moved a bit forward then, and beef up the hinge for extra weight as you said. Joe From: James Frankland To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org; PSUBS Member Discussion Group Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:55 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 modifications. I would suggest these as critical. 1. Hatch. Opening from both sides. Worst part of the design I think. 2. Hatch bracket. Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy. Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on. 3. Variable tank mounting. The way the tank mounts is awkward and doesnt allow any adjustment. Much easier and better would be flat horizontal brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding flat brackets on the vbt. Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow the tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to be fitted easily. Also the tank could be just lifted up and on. Very simple change. I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much trouble you want to go to and cosmetics. For example, I changed the battery pod endcap seals. I had a real pain trying to make them as per the plans. The way i did them in the end with flanges was a lot easier. But probably nothing wrong with the original design. Skids. I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint knocked off. Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design. I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless. Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones shown on the plans. The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good. You could do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead if you didnt want to make too many. The dome of course. Overpressure valve. loads of little modifications. I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming about subs! Kind Regards James _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca Wed Oct 30 20:49:15 2013 From: hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca (hank pronk) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 17:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber In-Reply-To: References: <1383133210.61044.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0A3808870DF58-112C-162D3@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com> <1383136151.89236.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1383143832.42475.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1383151987.11097.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1383176737.71189.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1383180555.49438.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Rick, Thanks', your right,?it will be much safer.? I am only testing to 1,000 feet, I don't think my chamber will handle a destruction test. Hank? From: Land N Sea To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:37:15 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber Back in my diving days our company retested a couple of deck chambers and they filled them completely with water leaving no air at all so if it ruptured, there would be little or no bang. If you are testing it to failure then I guess you would still need some air on the LP side so you are back to an air gap. Get a long hose with the valve on your end and stand outside the building and peek around the corner. Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 1:45 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber Today I built a window pressure test chamber.? When the window is in the chamber there is a small air space remaining.? Should that space be filled with water while the window is under pressure. The space is about 250ml. Hank From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:53:07 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Since the force on the puller hub is directed outward in this application, the loss of material for an oversize size rod should not matter.? Hank From: Alec Smyth To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 9:31:43 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Can one drill out the puller thread and cut a new slightly larger one in coarse thread? On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 10:37 AM, hank pronk wrote: James, >It's like the puller was made for it.? Be aware though, with the fine thread it is slow to unlatch.? A real coarse thread, would be faster.? My original idea was to use a scissor jack threaded rod and nut. >Hank > >From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:52:05 AM >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms >Hank, >Looks like a nice simple solution.? Thanks for sharing that one.? I've got loads of flywheel pullers and the like that could be adapted. >Regards >James > >On 30 October 2013 12:29, hank pronk wrote: >James, >>The hatch picture is with new sub on the project page.? >>Hank >> >>From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" >>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org >>Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:13:10 AM >>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms >>Checklist item:? Proper tools onboard in the event a component of the hatch mechanism binds or breaks. >>-----Original Message-----From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 6:51 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms >>slightly lower seat! >>On 30 October 2013 11:40, Joe Perkel wrote: >>Speaking of this hatch issue, would all this extra hardware present a head butting problem? How to deal with that? A more dished profile, or a slightly taller conning tower? >>>JoeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>>From: James Frankland ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; >>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 10:06:59 AM >>>Hank, >>>How does the mechanism work?? turning the wheel obviosly lifts the ends under the hatch lip.? Dont suppose you have a dwg? >>>Regards >>>James >>>On 29 October 2013 18:15, hank pronk wrote: >>>Jim, >>>>that is exactly what I did with my k350 hatch.? I didn't have tie rods yet so I put adjusting bolts in the dogs.? I intent to change to tie rods from go carts.? This is very easy to build.? The slide system is the easiest to fabricate though and less complicated.? Gamma has slides. >>>>Hank >>>>From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:20:14 AMSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms >>>>Hi Jim.? I reckon i took that picture!? unless you took one almost exactly the same!? Its the lanzarote sub i think, i remember sending it to someone, Brent i think. >>>> >>>> >>>>? >>>>On 29 October 2013 14:38, wrote: >>>>On this hatch mechanism the dogs pivot instead of sliding.? The arms are threaded to adjust? the length turnbuckle style. >>>>> >>>>>For sliding dogs, beveling them where they contact the latch point allows them to progressively tighten as they move into place.? The latch points on the tower should either be replaceable or have replaceable wear plates.? That also allows you to change the thickness of the wear plates in order to adjust the pressure of the hatch to the landing. >>>>>-Jim >>>>>-----Original Message-----From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 6:53 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods >>>>>anything like that would be ok by the looks of things.? That one is good because it only requires one through hull. >>>>>On 29 October 2013 11:25, Joe Perkel wrote: >>>>>James, >>>>>> >>>>>>2400 series, look for drawings at bottom of page for that series. The cast hatches are of no value to us but the mechanisms I believe are. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Joe >>>>>> >>>>>>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad >>>>>>From: James Frankland ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 11:15:49 AM >>>>>>I cant see the one you mean Joe, is there a product number? >>>>>>On 29 October 2013 10:54, Joe Perkel wrote: >>>>>>James, >>>>>>>? >>>>>>>Ive given thought to the hatch in the past, take a look at freeman marine and look at the cam mechanism with dogs, http://www.freemanmarine.com/ProductsHatches.htm >>>>>>>? >>>>>>>Could not a rotating shaft pass through the center to both sides via same thru-hull as side thrusters, with a wheel on both sides and a similar cam mechanism on the inside? Upward Port moved a bit forward then, and beef up the hinge for extra weight as you said. >>>>>>>? >>>>>>>? >>>>>>>Joe >>>>>>>From: James Frankland >>>>>>>To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org; PSUBS Member Discussion Group >>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:55 AM >>>>>>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 modifications. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I would suggest these as critical. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>1.? Hatch.? Opening from both sides.? Worst part of the design I think. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>2.? Hatch bracket.? Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy.? Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>3.? Variable tank mounting.? The way the tank mounts is awkward and doesnt allow any adjustment.? Much easier and better would be flat horizontal brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding flat brackets on the vbt.? Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow the tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to be fitted easily.? Also the tank could be just lifted up and on.? Very simple change. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much trouble you want to go to and cosmetics. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>For example, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I changed the battery pod endcap seals.? I had a real pain trying to make them as per the plans.? The way i did them in the end with flanges was a lot easier.? But probably nothing wrong with the original design. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Skids.? I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint knocked off.? Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones shown on the plans. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good.? You could do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead if you didnt want to make too many. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The dome of course. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Overpressure valve. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>loads of little modifications. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming about subs! >>>>>>>Kind Regards >>>>>>>James_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>_______________________________________________ >>Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >>_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net Wed Oct 30 23:19:06 2013 From: landnsea1 at hawaiiantel.net (Land N Sea) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 17:19:06 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber In-Reply-To: <1383180555.49438.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1383133210.61044.YahooMailIosMobile@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8D0A3808870DF58-112C-162D3@webmail-m231.sysops.aol.com> <1383136151.89236.YahooMailNeo@web120701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1383143832.42475.YahooMailNeo@web120702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1383151987.11097.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1383176737.71189.YahooMailNeo@web120705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1383180555.49438.YahooMailNeo@web120703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I was considering doing the same thing, fabricating a test pot to take one to failure just out of curiosity and piece of mind as well as test the rest to 600? before installing them but figured it might me costly to do, so kind of gave up the idea. Let us know your design with any pictures you may have of it and an idea or your cost outlay if you don?t mind and would still like to do it if feasible. I cringe at the idea of a port light failure on the sub when testing and have to reel in a real heavy object full of sea water from 600?!! Good luck and let us know how it went. Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 2:49 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber Rick, Thanks', your right, it will be much safer. I am only testing to 1,000 feet, I don't think my chamber will handle a destruction test. Hank From: Land N Sea To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:37:15 PM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber Back in my diving days our company retested a couple of deck chambers and they filled them completely with water leaving no air at all so if it ruptured, there would be little or no bang. If you are testing it to failure then I guess you would still need some air on the LP side so you are back to an air gap. Get a long hose with the valve on your end and stand outside the building and peek around the corner. Rick From: hank pronk Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 1:45 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] window test chamber Today I built a window pressure test chamber. When the window is in the chamber there is a small air space remaining. Should that space be filled with water while the window is under pressure. The space is about 250ml. Hank From: hank pronk To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:53:07 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Since the force on the puller hub is directed outward in this application, the loss of material for an oversize size rod should not matter. Hank From: Alec Smyth To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 9:31:43 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Can one drill out the puller thread and cut a new slightly larger one in coarse thread? On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 10:37 AM, hank pronk wrote: James, It's like the puller was made for it. Be aware though, with the fine thread it is slow to unlatch. A real coarse thread, would be faster. My original idea was to use a scissor jack threaded rod and nut. Hank From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:52:05 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Hank, Looks like a nice simple solution. Thanks for sharing that one. I've got loads of flywheel pullers and the like that could be adapted. Regards James On 30 October 2013 12:29, hank pronk wrote: James, The hatch picture is with new sub on the project page. Hank From: "jimtoddpsub at aol.com" To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:13:10 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Checklist item: Proper tools onboard in the event a component of the hatch mechanism binds or breaks. -----Original Message-----From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 6:51 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms slightly lower seat! On 30 October 2013 11:40, Joe Perkel wrote: Speaking of this hatch issue, would all this extra hardware present a head butting problem? How to deal with that? A more dished profile, or a slightly taller conning tower? JoeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: James Frankland ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Sent: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 10:06:59 AM Hank, How does the mechanism work? turning the wheel obviosly lifts the ends under the hatch lip. Dont suppose you have a dwg? Regards James On 29 October 2013 18:15, hank pronk wrote: Jim, that is exactly what I did with my k350 hatch. I didn't have tie rods yet so I put adjusting bolts in the dogs. I intent to change to tie rods from go carts. This is very easy to build. The slide system is the easiest to fabricate though and less complicated. Gamma has slides. Hank From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:20:14 AMSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hatch mechanisms Hi Jim. I reckon i took that picture! unless you took one almost exactly the same! Its the lanzarote sub i think, i remember sending it to someone, Brent i think. On 29 October 2013 14:38, wrote: On this hatch mechanism the dogs pivot instead of sliding. The arms are threaded to adjust the length turnbuckle style. For sliding dogs, beveling them where they contact the latch point allows them to progressively tighten as they move into place. The latch points on the tower should either be replaceable or have replaceable wear plates. That also allows you to change the thickness of the wear plates in order to adjust the pressure of the hatch to the landing. -Jim -----Original Message-----From: James Frankland To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 6:53 amSubject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods anything like that would be ok by the looks of things. That one is good because it only requires one through hull. On 29 October 2013 11:25, Joe Perkel wrote: James, 2400 series, look for drawings at bottom of page for that series. The cast hatches are of no value to us but the mechanisms I believe are. Joe Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: James Frankland ; To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion ; Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods Sent: Tue, Oct 29, 2013 11:15:49 AM I cant see the one you mean Joe, is there a product number? On 29 October 2013 10:54, Joe Perkel wrote: James, Ive given thought to the hatch in the past, take a look at freeman marine and look at the cam mechanism with dogs, http://www.freemanmarine.com/ProductsHatches.htm Could not a rotating shaft pass through the center to both sides via same thru-hull as side thrusters, with a wheel on both sides and a similar cam mechanism on the inside? Upward Port moved a bit forward then, and beef up the hinge for extra weight as you said. Joe From: James Frankland To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org; PSUBS Member Discussion Group Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 5:55 AM Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K-350 Mods Jon\Joe sent a message yesterday i think regarding suggested K-350 modifications. I would suggest these as critical. 1. Hatch. Opening from both sides. Worst part of the design I think. 2. Hatch bracket. Could do with beefing up, it feels a bit flimsy. Probably could do with some traingular flanges welding on. 3. Variable tank mounting. The way the tank mounts is awkward and doesnt allow any adjustment. Much easier and better would be flat horizontal brackets welded to the battery pods that join to corresponding flat brackets on the vbt. Slotted holes on one of the planes would allow the tank to slide forward and back a little to allow that awkward vent to be fitted easily. Also the tank could be just lifted up and on. Very simple change. I think other than that, other modifications are depending on how much trouble you want to go to and cosmetics. For example, I changed the battery pod endcap seals. I had a real pain trying to make them as per the plans. The way i did them in the end with flanges was a lot easier. But probably nothing wrong with the original design. Skids. I didnt like the ones shown, they would just get all the paint knocked off. Again, probably nothing wrong with the original design. I made all the flanges and protrutions from stainless. Electrical penetrators added to the battery pods to eliminate the ones shown on the plans. The 2 extra downward facing viewports i put in are really good. You could do away with the ones at the back and put them there instead if you didnt want to make too many. The dome of course. Overpressure valve. loads of little modifications. I'm at work, and i better get on with some of it, instead of daydreaming about subs! Kind Regards James _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seaquestor at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 03:18:25 2013 From: seaquestor at gmail.com (David Colombo) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 00:18:25 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1383091522.91170.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1383091522.91170.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Joe, Here is the Acad file on the Minn Kota 101 with the Marin 37 kort nozzle. Its at a 1/4" scale, and is pretty close as I can get the measurements. Let me know if you have any questions. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > Im going to try to attach an image. Here is what Ive done for a MK 101 > Kort Nozzle with .11 tip clearance for an 11" prop. > > I need to finalize body attachment, the streamlined ABS struts have > threaded rods through them. > > Joe > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MINN KOTA THRUSTER ELEV.dwg Type: image/vnd.dwg Size: 54002 bytes Desc: not available URL: From seaquestor at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 03:45:35 2013 From: seaquestor at gmail.com (David Colombo) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 00:45:35 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <1383091522.91170.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Joe, Here is a pdf of the design as well. Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 www.SeaQuestor.com On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 12:18 AM, David Colombo wrote: > Hi Joe, > Here is the Acad file on the Minn Kota 101 with the Marin 37 kort nozzle. > Its at a 1/4" scale, and is pretty close as I can get the measurements. Let > me know if you have any questions. > > > > > Best Regards, > David Colombo > > 804 College Ave > Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 > (707) 536-1424 > www.SeaQuestor.com > > > > On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: > >> Im going to try to attach an image. Here is what Ive done for a MK 101 >> Kort Nozzle with .11 tip clearance for an 11" prop. >> >> I need to finalize body attachment, the streamlined ABS struts have >> threaded rods through them. >> >> Joe >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MINN KOTA THRUSTER ELEV 2.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 6462 bytes Desc: not available URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Thu Oct 31 06:18:18 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 03:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <1383091522.91170.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1383214698.21294.YahooMailNeo@web160506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> David, ? That is excellent thank you! ? I am however confused about one thing, the body on this drawing is 3 7/8 diameter, there is mention on various parts sites for MK's of a 4" body. So who has this 4" body? ? I'm also surprised at the large diameter of these props, this means they are slow turning, does anyone know the full load wattage and the RPMs of one of these? ? Thanks Again! ? Joe ________________________________ From: David Colombo To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 3:18 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Hi Joe, Here is the Acad file on the Minn? Kota 101 with the Marin 37 kort nozzle. Its at a 1/4" scale, and is pretty close as I can get the measurements. Let me know if you have any questions. ? Best Regards, David Colombo 804 College Ave Santa Rosa, CA. 95404 (707) 536-1424 http://www.seaquestor.com/ On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 5:05 PM, Joe Perkel wrote: Im going to try to attach an image. Here is what Ive done for a MK 101 Kort Nozzle with .11 tip clearance for an 11" prop. > >I need to finalize body attachment, the streamlined ABS struts have threaded rods through them. > >Joe >_______________________________________________ >Personal_Submersibles mailing list >Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MerlinSub at t-online.de Thu Oct 31 06:27:00 2013 From: MerlinSub at t-online.de ( ) Date: 31 Oct 2013 10:27 GMT Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1383091522.91170.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1383091522.91170.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1VbpUy-45lOHg0@fwd06.t-online.de> Joe, DWG is for the metal guys in the group. Here is my production drawing of a kortnozzle make mostly from three sheets of metal. One cylinder and two conus. I simplied the internal aft ring to a cylinder so it do not matter which propeller seats in the nozzel and which depth. Plates should be deliver by a watercut or laser cut shop. Or for hardcore psubers can be made with a grider or a electric saw or a torch. Cad Drawing can be easy scale up and down. Bigger one can be make from stainless steel, free flooding with a small (Epoxy-)filler job on the entrance to be perfect. But even without the filler job it is a nice nozzle. Small units can be made from brass plates hard soldering together. Please not: To be work perfect with the nozzle the propeller need at the tip ends a small tolerance to the nozzle. Means the tips of a normal free running propller has to be cut to a perfect cycle as shown in the drawing. Anyway a propeller in a kortnozzles needs a little higher rpm than the same propeller as free runner. So thats fits. Kort nozzle will and thrust to our props below 10 knots. At higher ship speeds the surface drag of the nzzle will eats the effects. But nearly all our boats are below 10 knots. Hi Emile - maybe there is a small market for Psubs-made from-massive-Delrin nozzles.. Marc or anybody - do you have any information about a kortnozzle with the propeller running reverse ?? All the best Carsten "Joe Perkel" schrieb: Im going to try to attach an image. Here is what Ive done for a MK 101 Kort Nozzle with .11 tip clearance for an 11" prop. I need to finalize body attachment, the streamlined ABS struts have threaded rods through them. Joe -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: xx.DWG Type: application/octet-stream Size: 31398 bytes Desc: not available URL: From josephperkel at yahoo.com Thu Oct 31 06:45:43 2013 From: josephperkel at yahoo.com (Joe Perkel) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 03:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1VbpUy-45lOHg0@fwd06.t-online.de> References: <1383091522.91170.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VbpUy-45lOHg0@fwd06.t-online.de> Message-ID: <1383216343.64888.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Carsten ? That is also fabulous thank you! It had not occured to me to "unroll" flat sheets for metal fabrication. Very clever! ? Joe ________________________________ From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 6:27 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Joe, DWG is for the metal guys?in the group. Here is my production drawing of a kortnozzle make mostly from three sheets of metal. One cylinder and two conus. I simplied the internal aft ring to a cylinder so it?do not matter which propeller seats in the nozzel and which depth.?Plates should be deliver by a watercut or laser cut shop. Or for hardcore psubers can be made with a grider or a electric saw or a torch. Cad Drawing can be easy scale up and down. Bigger one can be make from stainless?steel, free flooding?with a small (Epoxy-)filler job on the?entrance to be perfect. But even without the filler job it is a?nice nozzle.??Small units can be made from brass plates hard soldering together. Please not: To be work perfect with the nozzle the propeller need? at the tip ends a small tolerance to the nozzle. Means the tips of a normal free running?propller has to be cut to a perfect cycle as shown in the drawing. Anyway a propeller ?in a kortnozzles needs a little higher rpm than the same propeller as free runner. So thats fits. Kort nozzle will and thrust to our props below 10 knots. At higher ship speeds the surface drag of the nzzle will eats the effects. But nearly all our boats are below 10 knots. Hi Emile - maybe there is? a small market for Psubs-made from-massive-Delrin nozzles.. Marc or anybody - do you have any information about a kortnozzle with the propeller running reverse ?? All the best Carsten "Joe Perkel" schrieb: Im going to try to attach an image. Here is what Ive done for a MK 101 Kort Nozzle with .11 tip clearance for an 11" prop. > >I need to finalize body attachment, the streamlined ABS struts have threaded rods through them. > >Joe? -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Alec.Smyth at covisint.com Thu Oct 31 08:55:59 2013 From: Alec.Smyth at covisint.com (Smyth, Alec) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 12:55:59 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1383216343.64888.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1383091522.91170.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1VbpUy-45lOHg0@fwd06.t-online.de> <1383216343.64888.YahooMailNeo@web160503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <815aace80ec3405bba5070fb45fed178@BN1PR05MB486.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> BTW if anyone wants a Kort for a 16" prop, I have a mostly-built one that I dropped due to a design change but which would save the builder a lot of time. I did like Carsten and developed the outer cone, which I cut from stainless plate. The project as it stands today consists of the outside cone with three solid SS hoops welded to it. One hoop is the leading edge, the other is the trailing edge, and one in between is just for stiffening. All welding is finished. The remaining job is to cut a template for the inside curve out of plywood, and use it to spread structural epoxy on the inside of the cone. The whole thing is 316 and the welding is finished. I have the 16" prop to match it too. However, I've gone to an all-Minnkota design. Let me know if interested and I'll email you a photo. Best, Alec From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Joe Perkel Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 6:46 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Carsten That is also fabulous thank you! It had not occured to me to "unroll" flat sheets for metal fabrication. Very clever! Joe From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 6:27 AM Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Joe, DWG is for the metal guys in the group. Here is my production drawing of a kortnozzle make mostly from three sheets of metal. One cylinder and two conus. I simplied the internal aft ring to a cylinder so it do not matter which propeller seats in the nozzel and which depth. Plates should be deliver by a watercut or laser cut shop. Or for hardcore psubers can be made with a grider or a electric saw or a torch. Cad Drawing can be easy scale up and down. Bigger one can be make from stainless steel, free flooding with a small (Epoxy-)filler job on the entrance to be perfect. But even without the filler job it is a nice nozzle. Small units can be made from brass plates hard soldering together. Please not: To be work perfect with the nozzle the propeller need at the tip ends a small tolerance to the nozzle. Means the tips of a normal free running propller has to be cut to a perfect cycle as shown in the drawing. Anyway a propeller in a kortnozzles needs a little higher rpm than the same propeller as free runner. So thats fits. Kort nozzle will and thrust to our props below 10 knots. At higher ship speeds the surface drag of the nzzle will eats the effects. But nearly all our boats are below 10 knots. Hi Emile - maybe there is a small market for Psubs-made from-massive-Delrin nozzles.. Marc or anybody - do you have any information about a kortnozzle with the propeller running reverse ?? All the best Carsten "Joe Perkel" schrieb: Im going to try to attach an image. Here is what Ive done for a MK 101 Kort Nozzle with .11 tip clearance for an 11" prop. I need to finalize body attachment, the streamlined ABS struts have threaded rods through them. Joe -- Carsten Standfu? Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik Heinrich Reck Str.12A 18211 Admannshagen 0172 8464 420 WWW.Euronaut.org Carsten at euronaut.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: kort_marin_19A.gif Type: image/gif Size: 92065 bytes Desc: kort_marin_19A.gif URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Developed cone wall for kort.DWG Type: application/octet-stream Size: 78841 bytes Desc: Developed cone wall for kort.DWG URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Kort.DWG Type: application/octet-stream Size: 75656 bytes Desc: Kort.DWG URL: From phil at philnuytten.com Mon Oct 28 22:02:16 2013 From: phil at philnuytten.com (Phil Nuytten) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 19:02:16 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: Bruce Beasley Exhibition of 3D Printed Sculptures Message-ID: All: Re the Bruce Beasley thread a while ago . . here's up Bruce is currently doing. Phil Nuytten -----Original Message----- From: Nuytco Research Ltd. Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 8:54 AM To: phil at philnuytten.com Subject: FW: Bruce Beasley Exhibition of 3D Printed Sculptures Nuytco Research Ltd. 216 East Esplanade North Vancouver, BC Canada V7L 1A3 ph. (604) 980-6262 fax (604) 980-6236 www.nuytco.com -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Beasley [mailto:bruce at brucebeasley.com] Sent: November-03-13 3:33 PM To: pbmeadows at att.net Subject: Bruce Beasley Exhibition of 3D Printed Sculptures Exhibitioin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: beasley_exhibit_email.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 95595 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: Untitled attachment 00025.txt URL: