[PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle

Alan alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com
Wed Nov 13 12:46:55 EST 2013 

Hi Alec,
That's a polyester resin, I'm not sure that it wouldn't dissolve a thin
shell of ABS. Experiment I guess. You would get better adhesion with
an epoxy product.
I am a fan of West Systems & just buy the epoxy & hardener & modify it
for fairing, glueing, or fibre glassing etc as needed. It saves having several
different products sitting round in pots getting old. And you can modify it
to the exact thickness you want.
I guess none of us are at the point of needing to experiment with this for
now. I am keen to try it later in my build.
Cheers Alan




Sent from my iPad

On 14/11/2013, at 2:55 AM, "Smyth, Alec" <Alec.Smyth at covisint.com> wrote:

> I would propose this stuff: http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_11151_10001_100305_-1?ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=100305&cid=sc_googlepla&device=c&network=g&matchtype=&gclid=CPryq7zz4boCFYhcMgodlnEAIA#.UoODI_leaSo
>  
> Its epoxy that comes just loaded (really, really loaded) with very long fibers. So much fiber in fact that when you open the can it looks like a bowl of superfine spaghetti. When it hardens it turns into a rock. Snoopy’s saddle tanks are mounted with little bits of stainless hex rod that have blind threaded holes in them, and are set in this material. That’s a pretty high stress application, and so far so good, you can jump up and down on those tanks.
>  
> Alan, I don’t dislike the idea at all, but it’s just that the Korts are perhaps the last thing to be made on the new sub, and I’m really focused on more basic tasks at this point. At the moment, I’m fabricating all the bits and pieces for mounting the thrusters on the hull.
>  
>  
> Best,
> 
> Alec
>  
>  
>  
> From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan
> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 9:10 PM
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
>  
> Hank,
> Thanks for the vote of confidence.
> I hadn't given submarines a thought till a few years ago.
> I think the art background & a bit of experience with fibreglass gave
> me the confidence to start the project.
> I may do a bit of casting between thin shelled non printed items first.
> Alan
>  
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On 13/11/2013, at 2:17 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> 
> Alan,
> Your right, now that I think of it.  I have seen broken plastic with the fibers showing.  Sounds like your the one to start experimenting with this.  When you were working on your art projects did you ever think you would be building kort nozzles for a submarine. 
> Hank
>  
> 
> On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:56:16 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hank,
> I bought a plastic pressure regulator recently that has an
> inlet pressure of 10 bar & was made of nylon reinforced
> with glass fiber. so where strength is needed the commercially
> manufactured plastic items have glass added. Of course this
> would have been formed in an injection molder under a lot of
> pressure, so the thickness of the molten plastic wouldn't matter.
> You may be right that in the thin sections something other than
> resin will work better. However possibly small amounts of milled
> fiber in resin might be stronger than alternative materials without it.
> With regard to bubbles in castings; you can always patch up the
> surface later. If you leave the printed shell on they won't show.
> Alan
>  
> From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
>  
> Alan,
> That seems logical providing the void is large enough.  I found with building electrical penetrators that if the void is to small, air pockets are created.  I still think plastic is the way to go because fiberglass resin is only strong when supported by fibers.  The more fibers the stronger it is but less workable in a small void.  Plastic in liquid form flows very well and has strength without fibers.  I will bow to your experience though.
> Hank
>  
> 
> On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:09:38 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Hank,
> If I can convince Alec that I know what I'm talking about he might
> try this on his 3d printer. I am tempted to buy a printer but it would be
> a bit premature as my CAD skills aren't at a level to export to it yet.
> My latest thoughts are to build larger models up with hollow sections
> that have external flanges to glue them together. Then pour a mold
> release in to the cavity, swirl it around, tip the excess out & allow to
> dry. Possibly a gel coat could be poured in, in a similar process. Then
> fill with the resin & milled fibre. Finally when the resin is set, peel
> or cut off the printed shell. Of course with a lot of things like this they
> are easier said than done.
> Alan
>  
>   
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On 13/11/2013, at 10:53 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> 
> Alan,
> sounds like you bin there done that
> Hank
>  
> 
> On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:20:18 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Hank,
> as an artist I made a number of molds out of different materials. 
> Silicone was best but cost N.Z. $70- a liter.
> You need to make a supporting structure to pour the silicone in to, 
> then on bigger molds, an external support structure for the silicone mold. 
> Some times the silicone molds need to be made in two halves.
> So not always easy. I thought about doing the kort nozzle with a mold,
> But it would be a huge amount of work with the mold built in several sections.
> There is probably not a lot on a submarine you would want to mass produce. 
> That's why I like the idea of this printing process for one offs.
> Also making the objects hollow will save on printer time & material.
> Alan
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On 13/11/2013, at 2:27 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> 
> Alan,
> How about take the printed mould and make it smaller, then use it to make a rubber mould.  Then you can make as many pieces as the mold can handle.   Unless you have lots of space you will have trouble with thick mixes.
> Hank
>  
> 
> On Monday, November 11, 2013 8:43:53 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Looks good Hank,
> has only 0.01 shrinkage. So if shrinkage were an issue it may be an option.
> You could probably mix glass fiber with it to strengthen it.
> Here is an epoxy product that is not quite half the price & has the fiber mixed in it.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPOXY-RESIN-VERY-HARD-CASTING-RESIN-LIQUID-FIBERGLASS-/310112944078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48342bffce
> It is a gel like consistency so may not suit every application. Has 0.1 shrinkage.
> Again if I just use the resin + glass fiber, I can mix to my desired consistency.
> Another thought that came to mind was to pour a mold release in to the printed shell
> & drain it out so as to leave a film on the inside. Then pour in the resin & peel off the
> printed outside when set. This would leave a fiberglass product that could be attached with 
> epoxy to other structures.
> Alan
>  
> From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
> Sent: 
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle
>  
> Alan,
> look at liquid plastic on e bay.  It is cheap and there is one brand that cures at 180 degrees f.  This is polyurethane casting resin.  Nice stuff but maybe not for kort nozzles.  
> Hank 
>  
> 
> On Monday, November 11, 2013 6:03:27 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Hank,
> I'm not familiar with liquid plastic.
> I use the West systems epoxy, where you have your epoxy & hardener & throw
> In the other additives that give it various properties, like hardness. 
> The glass fibre will give it a lot of structural strength & I can mix it in as thick or
> as thin as I want depending on the section thickness / complexity of the form I want to fill.
> Also price wise, mixing seems a lot cheaper than off the shelf pre-mixed items.
> Alan
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On 12/11/2013, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> 
> Alan,
> this may be a dumb question,,, why not use liquid plastic.  The stuff I use is strong and shrinks almost nothing.  It also does not generate heat when curing.  This stuff is the harness of a hockey puck.
> Hank
>  
> 
> On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:26:33 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:
> To interested parties,
> I spoke with a 3d printing expert, Richard, regarding filling hollow sections of 3d printed items with
> fiber reinforced resin. He hadn't heard of it, but thought it had a lot of potential.
> He suggested watching out for heat generated in the exothermic reaction, as we had already
> discussed, and printing a roughened interior surface as a key for the epoxy, to stop the exterior 
> delaminating.
> I also spoke to an epoxy tech who told me epoxy only shrinks about 1/2% & with additives such as
> milled fiber the percentile shrinkage of the whole will decrease proportionate to the additive.
> So shrinkage may not be a major problem.
> Will do some experimenting.
> Alan
>  
>  
>  
>  
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