RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Own submarine pen (Eurosub)

["Hugh Fulton" <hc.fulton@gmail.com>]

Hi Carsten,
Finally some sense.  The Swiss seem very pragmatic in their dealing with
such matters.

That seems a really good approach.  There is no sense in such small boats
being used for tourism as the costs and insurance would dictate a larger
sub.
I have done some financial modelling and you need 5-10 seats minimum with
high occupancy and not seasonal.

I would be keen to get both my subs through with Swiss Lloyds.  I would like
to get something official so I could present it to the New Zealand Maritime
Authority to get approval and/or recognition of Swiss Lloyds.
I had a look at the photos of the KSS site and I could see it there so I
understand it.  The only comment I have is that it is welded in and a bit
difficult if you need to reface it but I saw it's size was quite large.

I am going for 1/3 psi (0.02 bar) relief.  With regard to the 2" flooding
valve I have reduced mine to 1" because 2" is too fast pressure rise for the
last 1/3 filling for people.  The maximum rate of increase of pressure for a
person was given to me as 30 meters/minute approx.  I would be interested in
your comments on this issue.

If I can get S/Lloyds accepted here then no doubt we will have to fly you
down for certification!
Best regards,  Hugh


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of
MerlinSub@t-online.de
Sent: Friday, 24 June 2011 9:35 p.m.
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Own submarine pen (Eurosub)

Hi Hugh, time is an big issue here.. 

Our pressure hull seals are normal not rate or calculate to overpressure. 
But that is normal on most submarine seats for hatches and domes. 
The pressure vale can by adjust. And has a check button to test it or make
the boat ambient before open the domes. 
Adjustment is to a very light overpressure of some milibars. 

The Overpressure vale is a strong stainlesse steel plate welded in the
pressure with 18 holes of 12 mm means about 20 cm2
Thats equal to an 2" valve opening. On top is a spring loaded o-ring sealed
plate. 
And the flood vale of the cabin is also a 2" inch ball vale. 
Fast flooding is important in the case of an emergency exit. 

Swiss Lloyds is a relative new classification society. 
The idear is to make it possible to class and as result insurance small
vessels like megayacht tender, small sport boats and psubs. 
So you can carry guest with it. The big ones like ABS, GL, NV etc. are much
to expensive for a psubs and normaly cost more than the sub. 
A tzypicak figure here is 50.000 to 60.000 euro (70-85.000 USD)

The class cost for a two seater submarine will be around 6000 Euro means
around 8000 USD. 
The idear is that the owner/builder of the sub first write a very good
technical description and operating manual. 

Than you send this book/file to the inspector. So the most work is at the
builders side. 
The inspector will read this manual carefully. And for sure he will come
with questions..   
After check out all question and maybe some upgrade the subs and the manual,
he will come for a inspection - in general two days. 
One day to inspect the boat and checked allout and a long long disscusion
how the qwner like to operate there sub from a technical point. 
And one day for diving with it and test all saftey issues. 

The rules are mostly the same as on the big classification but the decision
based on the expierence and the report of the inspector. 
Not so much on the written rules. The simple reason for this it that each
sub will be checked out as individual.
Small subs can not full fill all class rules - but the can do something to
get a EQUAL saftey status. 
The check out has its centerpoint not so much on the material properies -
this can be easy check out with the standard classification rules. 
The centerpoint of intresst is more relate to the operational build in
safety gears, equipment and checklist and the saftey protocols.   

Sample: On the last inspection we found after a disscusion with the builders
that the foreign operators take not so much care than the builders like to
see. 
There is a possibilty that the guys for examle just forget in the evening to
close the oxygen vale. And on the next morning the hole boat is flooded with
oxygen. Can you imagine that it can be happen that an operator take no care?
We discuss automatic vales, signal horns and other technical solutions.. But
the solution is now that the main bottles are untouched. And a pretty small
bottle for only day use is on board. The operator has to remove this bottle
every evening from the boat and if he take no care on this it do not matter
so much - because in the evening after a day of operation the bottle will be
nearly empty. The other pro on that is that the main storage is untouch, and
he has to refill the small bottle on a regual base each day. So the storage
on the begining is allways 100%. 

We develop other simple rules for small subs which cost not much, just brain
work. And we did this for each single sub and - quick. 

all the best Carsten



"Hugh Fulton" <hc.fulton@gmail.com> schrieb:
> Thanks Carsten, I understand, but what pressure is it rated for
internally?
> Also what is the orifice of your relief valve.   I have allowed for 25mm
> relief valve but the comsub has a 12mm relief set at 0.05 bar.
> That is good to hear that you are an inspector.  I have not heard of Swiss
> Lloyds.  Is it similar to G/L with the submersible rules?  Best regards,
> Hugh
> 
> 
> 
> The information contained in this email is privileged and confidential and
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> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of
> MerlinSub@t-online.de
> Sent: Saturday, 11 June 2011 7:12 p.m.
> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Own submarine pen (Eurosub)
> 
> Hugh, all our submarines have a overpressure valve. 
> 
> I feel that small sub without that valve are not very safe. 
> 
> The Pressure hull has a penetrator hole closed with a spring loaded  and
> o-ring sealed cover plate. 
> It is not possible to increase the internal pressure over ambient. Yes the
> big dome is the emergency exit. 
> 
> It will pass SL (Swiss LLoyds) were I am now a inspector for small subs
> from. 
> But I see no reason why it should not pass GL, ABS, BV, NV and the other
> classifications. 
> 
> vbr Carsten
> 
> 
> "Hugh Fulton" <hc.fulton@gmail.com> schrieb:
> > Hi Carsten.
> > I note that you have only 4 bolts holding the large Viewport in place.
I
> > gather this is for quick removal in emergency.
> > How much pressure internally will this take and will this pass G/L or
ABS.
> > I think it is a great idea but I could not find what is the minimum
> > acceptable internal pressure that you can design for,
> > I note that any gas/air cylinder inside cannot raise the pressure more
> than
> > 0.5 bar somewhere but I designed for 1 bar max internal pressure.
> > Iinterested in your comments on this matter.  Regards,  Hugh
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of
> > MerlinSub@t-online.de
> > Sent: Saturday, 11 June 2011 7:53 a.m.
> > To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Own submarine pen (Eurosub)
> > 
> > 
> > The first picture shows a quick and cheap way to create an own submarine
> pen
> > for small subs. 
> > 
> > The second picture shows the view from a dome with 950 mm Diameter (37
> inch)
> > after rebuild the bow from the original 600 mm (24 inch) dome. 
> > 
> > Both pictures taken last weekend at the Kreidesee in Hemmoor, Germany
> > 
> > vbr Carsten
> > 
> > http://www.euronaut.org/content/upload/notes/03062011(004).jpg
> > 
> > http://www.euronaut.org/content/upload/notes/03062011.jpg
> > 
> > 
> > 
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