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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Batteries Bank



Interesting. Thanks. My sub(s) were designed with wet cells in mind and the relative complexity coupled with out of pocket expenses to upgrade suggests to me that the old way may still be the best bet, in spite of plentiful statistics (mostly promulgated by the manufacturers) to the contrary.

That said, there is more and more data coming out about lithium cells in AUVs and whatnot, so maybe things are getting worked out. The dive to the Challenger Deep that Wood's Hole did was interesting. Their vehicle is self-powered and uses lithium batteries. They had an internal failure and had to rebuild the packs on site. It was quite a night, apparently. They solved the problem and did the dive(s). Mind you, the battery guy was an electrical engineer who speaks lithium fluently--and I don't have one of those.

Perhaps the AGM technology has progressed enough to fill that interim slot, but I haven't decided on that yet. HBOI had some serious charging problems with them at one time on PC-1204, but found the solution and still use them (whenever the sub goes operational again). We had an interesting session at the psubs conference this year with an AGM battery guy and he made it sound pretty much like a done deal.  On top of that, Phil Nuytten and his folks and customers have a ton of experience with AGMs and have figured out how to make them work with (effectively) zero maintenance and down time. That's compelling data. Everything else seems to be mostly engineering and conjecture.

Nuytco has some plans for Lithium packs in a Deepworker for a specific, long-duration, single-dive job. I'll be interested to see how that works out. However, the complication and expense doesn't seem to appeal to anyone without large budgets. The job that Nuytco is talking about is a one-off deal and I'm sure that battery costs are factored into the contract.

The problem is that one failure with lithium sets puts you back on the beach, or requires a complete second battery/charger set, or a factory tech on hand or whatever. And then there is the over-heating problem, which still makes me nervous. I've had two fires underwater. Neither were battery fires (if you don't count the dead short and massive bang when a $150K string of experimental NiCads let go on deck). But I did learn that fires are a very bad thing in close quarters. Didn't enjoy the experience. Don't want to repeat it.

I'm not dismissing anything. What I'm doing at the moment is planning simple, or agricultural, as my English friends would say. Still, keeping up with the new tech is part of that decision making process, and I'm trying my best to do that, too. I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one.

Thanks again.

Vance



-----Original Message-----
From: Stewart Gardiner <stew@terminalsolutions.biz>
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Sent: Sun, Oct 3, 2010 10:11 am
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Batteries Bank

One thing that I can’t see mentioned anywhere in anyone else’s post’s on this topic… Is the “Usable” Capacity difference between Pb/Acid and lithium cells…
 
If you discharge a lead acid battery totally it is very bad for the battery’s health, and means you cant fully utilize all of a lead acid battery’s current/power.
 
As quoted in this article below… Lithium batteries give a usable current/potential/power of closer to 80 to 90% of their potential capacity!!!!
 
Usually with lithium cells they need their own battery management circuit to manage charging and discharging rates of each cell. Also as previously mentioned… Discharge rates are very very important. If you exceed the designed discharge rate of a lithium cell you will probably end up with a fire, or at least overheating problems. Its all in the design… and for the purpose of PSUB’s…. how hard would it be to modify existing off the shelf cells with water cooling? Closed loop of course… with a heat exchanger to a heatsink
 
Here is a real life Electric vehicle Lead acid VS Lithium battery comparison! J It is for electric cars… but it is defiantly applicable to your application.
 
 
 
The first step is to source a lithium pack with 10kWh of usable energy. The Lithium batteries I have chosen get 2000 cycles to 80% DoD and I estimate that at the 1 hr rate they will deliver 95% of their rated energy due to the Peukert’s effect. So to give our total energy we multiply our usable energy by 1.35 meaning we need 13.5kWh to get out 40 mile range with lithium batteries. If we assume a 120V conversion this means we need 112.5Ah. The cheapest Lithium batteries I have seen in Australia are Thundersky LiFePo4 LFP prismatic cells $2.50 per 3.2V per Ah. So our 13.5kW pack would take 38 3.2V cells at ~110Ah and would cost $10450 at normal prices (no group discount), without shipping or BMS.
For a Lead Acid pack we also need to keep the batteries at less than 80% DoD and at the 1hr rate we can only expect to get 55% of the rated energy of the pack back due to the Peukert’s effect. That means we need to multiply the usable energy by 2.25 to get our total energy, in this case its 22.5kWh. Trojan T605 batteries could make up a 22.5kWh pack with 18 batteries (108V, 210Ah) at $225 each or $4050, it didn’t say how many cycles it would take on the website but let’s guess around 650 to 80%. That means we’ll need to replace our lead Acid pack around three times for every lithium pack we buy, meaning our total cost for the lead packs goes up by a factor of 3 to $12150 over 2000 cycles.
Now I must admit that I didn’t look very hard for the cheapest batteries and I am only guessing the cycle life of the Trojans but even if it’s not precisely accurate it does show that the myth that Lead is clearly cheaper than lithium is not well founded. Lithium’s greater efficiency and cycle life makes up for its higher initial cost. I didn’t know what the results would be like before I started. The10kWh number was chosen just to make it easy to calculate, it has little influence on the result one way or the other. I thought the results would be close but not this close. Please note that the Lithium pack would require a BMS, which would cost $1270 but that still means you are going to pay around $12k whether you go with Lithium or Lead. It would also be worth mentioning that you would be paying for more electricity over that time with Lead; 36MWh costing $3600 compared to 21.6MWh $2160 @ $0.10 per kWh and recharging 80% of capacity. You would also need to water the batteries if you went with the Trojans, while the lithium’s would be maintenance free. It’s also worth mentioning that there are apparently disputed copyright issues with the thundersky cells and their previous record with customer support apparently not good, but this was just a cost comparison and the number look pretty convincing.
The total cost per km for the 2000 cycles is $15 750/ 130 000km = 12.1c per Km (19.7c/mile) for Lead Acid and $13888/ 130 000km = 10.7c per km (17.4c/mile) for the LiFePO4. These would obviously increase slightly when factoring in tire and brake wear. Just for comparison a the cost per km of a bunch of small ICE cars are listed here the cheapest being 41.44c/km but only 33.5% of that cost was for fuel and servicing (the rest being common cost for EVs as well) so that’s 13.9c/km for the cheapest ICE using fuel at $1.25/L. Clearly then EV have a price advantage over ICE’s especially now that normal unleaded is averaging $1.48/L.
In summary, while Lead Acid may be cheaper up front new lithium packs are more cost effective in the long run as well as being lighter, smaller and maintenance free. Obviously battery choices are highly dependant on individual conversions and budgets but it should not be assumed that Lead is the budget option, since it’s just not true anymore.
 
 
 
From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Firebolt
Sent: Friday, 1 October 2010 3:34 PM
To: Psusbs
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Batteries Bank
 
Hello, this is a short question, 250 kw electric motor running  for 8 hours what type/many batteries do I need? ex. ampere Hour, voltage