Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submarine kit-builder's society

[MerlinSub@t-online.de]

It is also for psubers very simple to ge a safe boat. 

By a copy of a classification book for submersibles, read it, understand it, 
build your boat to this standard or just equal to this. And forget just there stamps.. 

Phil, just for Information: A two seater Tourist sub was just class this year 
here for 50.000 euro the first one and 25.000 all future copys. 

vbr Carsten



"Wilfried Ellmer" <info@concretesubmarine.com> schrieb:
> Phil,
> 
> classification...presumably fine for manufacturers like us - but an
> unrealistic burden for a home builder...
> 
> I assume the fact that the "master of the universe of subbuilding" submits a
> design also helps to speed things up and keep "questioning and scrutinizing
> of submitted designs" at a bareable minimum.
> 
> I personally would take any design that is "proved by Nuytco  Research
> Limited" as a much higher standard than a classification stamp of any kind.
> 
> Finally it is reasonable to assume that the engineers working there (at the
> very fronteer of deep sea exploration) have a much clearer idea how to
> tackle the matter than engineers working in
> 
> "administration"...
> 
> Jon,
> 
> I do not really believe in your thesis that tecnology leadership comes from
> "administration societies" and that they do a solid research and development
> miles ahead of us. Even in our overadministrated times leadership comes from
> motivated individuals who push the fronties it - administration always
> follows.
> 
> I am not "anti standard" or "anti classification" i am against the
> satanisation of the "outside class status" as "unsafe", "unprofessional",
> "unreliable" etc...
> 
> The fact that currently there is a life outside classing agencies for
> private subs is the "air supply" of our sport. To fill a a private submarine
> builder forum with arguments to cut this air supply and regulate our sport
> out of existance - is not a wise course of action...
> 
> Wil
> 
> 2010/6/6 Phil Nuytten <phil@philnuytten.com>
> 
> >  Wil:
> > Not to belabour the subject, but probably important to get it right. The
> > figure quoted is for a new build - that is, a design that has not been
> > previously classed by any accepted agency. The majority of the cost is for
> > 'plan approval' - where the agency's technical people/engineers go over the
> > detailed submissions, checking out each calculation, each FEA, each fab
> > drawing, strain gauge results, radiography, compliance surveys reports, etc.
> > Once plan approval has been granted then that specific design package is
> > given what is called 'type approval' or 'type class' or 'model approval' or
> > 'serial design approval' (differing terminology in different agencies).
> >  This simply means that the specific design approved can be duplicated any
> > number of times without the necessity for plan approval each time. That
> > allows you to absorb the not inconsiderable cost of plan approval over
> > several builds - as long as you don't change anything. You can upgrade or
> > change features from the drawings on file with the agency, but each change
> > must be approved (at some cost) and the new drawings supersede the originals
> > ( the original drawings are retained for annual and major survey purposes
> > on existing subs of the original model.
> > All this is presumably fine for manufacturers like us - but an unrealistic
> > burden for a home builder! (actually, it's not even fine for us - a hundred
> > grand for plan approval and a fairly standard pricing scale of about a
> > hundred bucks an hour for a registered, qualified engineer means that the
> > classing agency is proposing to spend something like a thousand hours on
> > design review ??) - (less the agency's mark-up, of course). On a 40 hour
> > week, that's twenty weeks - factor in the weekends and holidays and it's
> > half a year! It doesn't take a qualified engineer anywhere near that time to
> > actually prepare the entire plan, do the calculations, etc.,
> > Hmmm - I'm on a soap-box, I see.
> > Re: Roatan and Stanley's 'the best insurance is the fact that I'm with you'
> > - that's sarcastically referred to as the 'Reverend Jones waiver' in the
> > biz. (as in " go ahead and drink the Cool-aid, see, I'm drinking it, too! "-
> > old-timers will get the reference, quickly.
> > Phil
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* Wilfried Ellmer <info@concretesubmarine.com>
> > *To:* personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > *Sent:* Sunday, June 06, 2010 5:31 AM
> > *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submarine kit-builder's society
> >
> > Hello Phil,
> >
> > Sorry for a "not terribly accurate" interpetation of your opinion about
> > classification of private personal subs and thanks your clarfification of
> > this point.
> >
> > Of course i am aware that you do a lot of classing in your business for
> > several reasons.
> >
> > Thanks for putting some overall numbers on the discussion, 150.000 USD
> > budget (minimum) for doing paperwork if you go for clasification (with a
> > standard proyect - nothing fancy).
> >
> > Which means projects that can not afford that sum (for paperwork) are
> > automatically pushed out of "viability zone".
> >
> > For what you call "rad new concepts" you need a lot more (add a couple of
> > ceros to the number).
> >
> > At the end the most critical point is liability - you can get ruined by the
> > defense costs even if you win it at the end.
> >
> > If you do something commercial in a "high liability entanglement risk"
> > segment it is convenient to have some deep thoughts about "project risk
> > management".
> >
> > I find it interesting that Roatan comes to your mind in that context. I
> > estimate Karl Stanley a lot for his guts and his business model - his oral
> > waiver for sub passengers is legendary - "this sub is not
> >
> > classed your only guarantee is - i come with you" - close the hatch and
> > dive.
> >
> > Looks like most of his customers are just fine with that.
> >
> > It has a long tradition in multinational companies to do the R&D pilot
> > projects in countries where "nanny state security" is not a "politically
> > desired" and "legally implemented" status. (I am writing this
> >
> > lines from south america.)
> >
> > European Submarine Structures AB has Headquaters in Stockholm (Sweden) and
> > a R&D Branch in Cartagena South America.
> >
> > Maybe we should talk about a "low paperwork hassle" R&D cooperation for
> > some of the "rad new concepts" - make them work in a ambient where paperwork
> > cost and hassle is not the decicive project management
> >
> > factor.
> >
> > The basic question is: Why should i pay 150.000 USD to clear the question
> > "is it safe?" - when a 50 USD test proceedure can give me a so much better
> > answer.
> >
> > 150.000 is a lot of money for getting what is finally just a "opinion".  If
> > i invest this in test series, double the material strength, i can get a lot
> > more safety for the money - much more "bang for the
> >
> > bug" as you say.
> >
> > The good thing is classification is a "CAN HAVE" not a "MUST HAVE" - for
> > private sub builders and they should be interested to keep it that way and
> > not prepare the ground that overregulation and
> >
> > administrative overhead costs pushes the sport into the "no viability
> > zone".
> >
> > Wil
> > concretesubmarine.com
> >
> > 2010/6/5 Phil Nuytten <phil@philnuytten.com>
> >
> >>  Hey, Wil!
> >> Err - Phil didn't 'recommend not to go for ABS' (or any other certifying
> >> agencies, for that matter). I do question the value of having a classed sub
> >> if you don't plan to take passengers for hire or those who would not be
> >> willing to sign a 'draconian' waiver to dive in your sub. The cost of
> >> initial 'plan approval' and then the many visits by surveyors during the
> >> construction phase, pressure tests and sea-trials can easily chew up a
> >> hundred and fifty thousand dollars. The prices vary, but all are expensive
> >> for a home-built - where you can't pass the cost on to a customer. We have
> >> actually had potential customers change their minds about buying a
> >> semi-custom sub from us, when they found that certification of a new build
> >> could easily bet ten percent of the purchase price.
> >> I believe that a home-built should should follow the accepted PVHO and MTS
> >> guidlines for construction, however innovative the design.
> >> Just be prepared that if your rad new concept is subject to plan approval
> >> by a classing agency because you want it classed, for whatever reason, you
> >> may have to open a small vein!
> >> The alternative? Put the sub under regular insurance for theft, fire, etc.
> >> and self-insure for total loss. This doesn't cut it for liability, however,
> >> and though your iron-clad waiver may carry the day, you can't stop the
> >> victim or his estate from bringing an action if he/they so choose - and
> >> defense can be expensive, with no guarantee that you'll recover legal costs,
> >> even if you win.
> >> For the record, our subs are classed variously by Lloyds, ABS, Cayman, and
> >> DNV.
> >> Also for the record, I've been personally responsible for the classing of
> >> more than 90 'submersibles' of one type or another, so it's not terribly
> >> accurate to say that I don't believe in sub classification,
> >> period!
> >> Or, if you want to avoid all paperwork hassles - maybe move to Roatan!
> >>
> >>
> >> ---- Original Message -----
> >>
> >>  *From:* Wilfried Ellmer <info@concretesubmarine.com>
> >> *To:* personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >>   *Sent:* Saturday, June 05, 2010 2:38 PM
> >> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] submarine kit-builder's society
> >>
> >> Hello Jon,
> >>
> >> I have not been on this forum for quite a while...just a few inputs.
> >>
> >> Doing something PIONEER while staying within STANDARDS is like putting
> >> edges on a circle.
> >>
> >> If you want to be a "explorer" and keep a "defensive legal position" all
> >> the time - how will that work?
> >>
> >> Safety is NOT the same as "Standard conform" - safety does not come from
> >> stamping - safety comes from solid testing and solid overbuild. No matter if
> >> it is standard conform or not.
> >>
> >> The sea does not know if your hull is stamped, approved, standard
> >> conform...whatever...it just finds your crush depth - stay sufficiently away
> >> from it - 1:3 - testing is the key.
> >>
> >> If you want to build a sub according to a "industrial pressure vessel
> >> standard" it will look, feel, and basicly - be, a "industrial pressure
> >> vessel" - who is really dreaming about "industrial pressure vessels" ?
> >>
> >> Who wants to have one? Sail one?
> >>
> >> What is psubs.org good for if it is only a pointer to a "industrial
> >> pressure vessel standard" ? - if you restrict free concepts you are basicly
> >> out of business.
> >>
> >> Why does Phil Nuytten who really has built a lot of subs recommend not to
> >> go for ABS (not worth it) ?
> >>
> >> Wil
> >> concretesubmarine.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 2010/6/5 Jon Wallace <jonw@psubs.org>
> >>
> >>> Jens Laland wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Is this forum meant to be an exclusive "submarine kit-builder's society"
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> No, however I don't think Greg was insinuating that either, rather he was
> >>> simply trying to rally potential builders out there to "git kraken" as Frank
> >>> would say.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Or, will there still be room for people taking the time required to work
> >>>> on new design or technology, and who needs a forum where they can
> >>>> present
> >>>> their work in a multitude of forms; like figments, dreams, ideas,
> >>>> questions, proposals, concepts, sketches, images, stories, discussions,
> >>>> mock-ups, scale models, etc.?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> New design and technology discussions are fine as long as they are both
> >>> practical and discussed responsibly.  Practical means in the context of
> >>> home-builders and responsible means having resources to back up assertions
> >>> and proposals, or demonstrating that you are following a safe path towards
> >>> your goal.  Of utmost import is safety and it must be applied diligently to
> >>> all discussion including concepts, proposals, design, fabrication and
> >>> operation.  This list is public and we have a responsibility to be careful
> >>> how we present "new" concepts and "unproven" technology so that casual
> >>> readers or well-intentioned but undisciplined sub-builders don't take those
> >>> concepts as definitive alternatives to traditional materials or procedures
> >>> that are known to work reliably.  Enforcing this discipline upon ourselves
> >>> strengthens us as a group and projects a positive image to the public as
> >>> well as government entities and our industry partners.
> >>>
> >>> Figments and dreams not based in practical application to home builders,
> >>> or that cannot be shown to be (or include) safe practices, are not
> >>> appropriate for this public list and should be discussed in the
> >>> "experimental" mailing list available to members through your PSUBS
> >>> accounts.  The experimental mailing list was created specifically to allow
> >>> discussion of unproven ideas and concepts, and to let those with minds who
> >>> want to wander free, do so.
> >>> I assume we have gotten here from the FRP discussion.  I know nothing
> >>> about FRP or its viability for PVHO, however it seems to be indisputable
> >>> that FRP for such use is not mainstream.  However, the fact remains that
> >>> research is being done on the material for use as cylinders under external
> >>> pressure as evidenced by the experiments conducted by Carl Ross in the UK.
> >>>  The fact that ABS has no certification available for FRP pressure hulls
> >>> should not be discarded so lightly.  While it is possible that ABS is just
> >>> behind the times as has been suggested, it is also as equally possible and
> >>> plausible that they know a bit of something about the material in terms of
> >>> fabrication for PVHO and have valid reasons for not creating standards for
> >>> it.
> >>>
> >>> At PSUBS we have adopted and promote the philosophy that home-built subs
> >>> should be built according to ABS standards.  The primary reason for doing so
> >>> is to promote the safe design, fabrication, and operation of small
> >>> home-built submarines based upon proven industry standards accepted by
> >>> almost everyone.  This gives us credibility and projects us in a positive
> >>> light to both the public and those authorities for which these things matter
> >>> and whom have the ability to regulate us.  It also binds us to a common
> >>> standard when the need arises to justify our decision for a particular
> >>> fabrication method or operational procedure.  Unfortunately, there are too
> >>> many people in the world who would want to "save us" from ourselves.  Not
> >>> adopting any standard puts us on the defensive when challenged about the
> >>> safety of our vessels.  Associating ourselves with industry standards such
> >>> as ABS gives us the upper-hand in any such confrontation.
> >>>
> >>> Now perhaps it may be more obvious why some people are challenging the
> >>> use of FRP for a submarine hull.  The fact that ABS does not have standards
> >>> for FRP when used for a PVHO doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it, but it
> >>> does mean we need to discuss it responsibly and cautiously.  I think Alan
> >>> has been taking pains to do both when discussing his plans for using FPR,
> >>> including using a composite engineer, talking about the expense and weight,
> >>> and suggesting that he will abandon the idea if it is either economically
> >>> unfeasible or otherwise impractical.  Alan has not employed the typical
> >>> topic structure we've seen in the past where someone throws out an idea as
> >>> if it is fact and then defends it with something like "nothing is
> >>> impossible".  It sounds like he is taking a measured approach and doing some
> >>> significant research into the feasibility of the material for his specific
> >>> design criteria.  As long as it continues in that manner I don't see a
> >>> problem with having Alan update us on his progress.  Challenging new designs
> >>> and materials is good medicine for those embarking on projects that do not
> >>> conform to ABS standards, and in my opinion those designers need to "step up
> >>> to the plate" and accept it.  As I have said before to others, don't take
> >>> offense to being challenged about your ideas or plans, especially by a group
> >>> that has a duty to further safe practices for an inherently dangerous hobby.
> >>>  If you really believe in what you are doing, accept the criticisms as a
> >>> challenge to drive your project to complete success and show us that you
> >>> were right.
> >>>
> >>> Jon
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
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