Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Important PSUBS Info - Please Read

["James Frankland" <james@guernseysubmarine.com>]

Hi Jon.

First, can i take this oppertunity to say thanks to you guys for all your hard work on the site all in your spare time.  I think people really appreciate that.

Second, i dont think splitting the list into members and non-members groups is a good idea.  It will give the impression of separation regardless of whether you can search the archives or not.  The list works great as it is.  Its simple, free and attracts everyone from the casual lurker to the pro sub builder.   My psubs messages plopping into my inbox every day keeps me motivated for my project.  I would not like to think i am missing some valuable info on another secret list (i would not bother searching the archives).

Does it really matter if we bash over the same topics now and again?  If you've heard it all before, you just hit delete and dont participate.

I appreciate you need to raise capital for conventions and group activities.  I have no problem with paying a fee for membership or various psubs services, but i would suggest you leave the list as it is so as not to scare away the dreamers.

Just my 2 pence worth.
Regards
James


----- Original Message -----
From: Juergen Guerrero Kommritz [mailto:groplias2@yahoo.com]
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Sent: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 23:58:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Important PSUBS Info - Please Read

Hello Jon
I do not agree with a "club" system. I know sometimes there are very wide topics and not everyone is interested in some of the topics that are discussed. But many times from one "not relevant topic" very interesting and informative discussions resulted.
Very few people understand the dream of building a submarine, most people think you are crazy if you tell them you are planing to build a submarine. We are still a small group with members worldwide. If there will be a membership many people wil be excluded where the internet services are not so good like in some developed contries.  I am afraid that will end as a list for member forum yust for americans and a normal forum for international publicum.
It works very good so as it work now.
Just my ideas
Best wishes
J?rgen

Jon Wallace <jon@psubs.org> wrote: Hello,

At the August 2008 PSUBS Convention, the subject of membership was
raised and a consensus of attendees indicated that they were in favor of
creating a PSUBS membership program with certain features and benefits
targeted only to the membership.  Of primary interest were targeted
mailing lists for specific discussions, active monitoring and moderating
of topics, a stated commitment to safety, and discounts from industry
partners that might be available to us.

Although not yet complete, we are ready to accommodate any "early birds"
who wish to start their membership at this time with limited benefits.
Available immediately are six targeted mailing lists for members-only,
and members may suggest others that may be appropriate:

1) "MEMBER-FORUM" for general topics and discussions
2) "1ATM" for discussions specific to 1ATM submersibles
3) "AMBIENT" for discussions specific to ambient submersibles
4) "EXPERIMENTAL" for non-traditional submersible design/construction topics
5) "ROV" for discussions specific to ROV and AUV vehicles.
6) "SAFETY" for topics specific to safety, standards, and guidelines

As a condition of PSUBS membership, you must indicate that you have read
and accept the "PSUBS Membership Agreement" which is available at
http://www.psubs.org/membership/PSUBSMembershipAgreement.pdf    This is
an important legal document in which you give up certain legal rights,
so please read it carefully.

You can pay for membership online via PayPal or send us a check or money
order.  All instructions are at http://www.psubs.org/membership

Details of "planned" membership features are listed at
http://www.psubs.org/membership and include:
- Official membership card with unique ID number
- Official PSUBS Lapel Pin and Bumper Sticker
- Access to member-only discussion lists
- Member BIO page and web-publishing your project photos
- Discounts on PSUBS sponsored conventions and meetings
- Discounts on products from our industry partners
- Discounts on various items from the PSUBS online store

At the 2008 convention, it was specifically requested that a PSUBS
coffee cup be distributed with every paid membership.  Unfortunately, it
turns out that custom logo coffee cups are relatively expensive.  The
cheapest price I could find was $10 (not including shipping).  Although
the price goes down when buying bulk, it isn't reduced all that much
(about $8 each I think).  Since we have no way of knowing how many
people are actually interested in becoming a member, purchasing 100
coffee cups in bulk just won't work since we don't have $800 to spend on
a bulk order.  I even looked into purchasing our own thermal transfer
printer for coffee cups, but they are quite expensive as well, at
between $600 and $1200 (not including coffee cup blanks) which we also
cannot afford.  Therefore, we have settled upon providing a PSUBS lapel
pin and bumper sticker free with your paid membership.  For those that
still want a coffee mug, clock, or something else, we will set up an
account with cafe express or similar provider and let you order your own
item at whatever the actual cost is.

I expect numerous questions regarding membership.  I have anticipated
some below.  Please try to ask any other questions on this discussion
list so that everyone else can view the answer.  If you have a question
you want to ask privately, reply to my psubs email address and I will
address your concerns.

QUESTIONS / ANSWERS

Q) What is the cost of PSUBS membership?

A) $35.00 per year


Q) What do I get with my membership?

A) Tangible items include a membership card, lapel pin, and bumper
sticker.  In terms of services you receive, access to members-only
discussion forums, discounts for various products and services as we
negotiate them, discounts from the PSUBS online store, and anything else
that we add.  Got a suggestion for something else you want?  Let me know
and we'll try it.


Q) When will *all* the membership features be available?

A) We are working diligently to finish up the BIO and Project Area
features.  However, work on such is done part-time (usually evenings)
after our "day" jobs are complete and time permits.  I cannot provide a
specific date of completion, but our target is now June 2009.


Q) Is PSUBS.ORG only going to be available to members now?

A) No, the vast majority of the website will remain public.  However,
expect some features to become members-only, such as providing web-space
for project areas.


Q) What happens to the publicly available mailing list
(personal_submersibles@psubs.org) ?

A) Nothing, except possibly a change to the name of the forum.  This
mailing list will remain in place and non-members will still have access
to it.  It's possible that the name may change to "questions" or
"public-forum", but that has not been decided at this point.  In any
event, unless you remove yourself from this list, you will continue to
receive mail from it and be able to participate in discussions
associated with it.  Furthermore, we expect that members will continue
to monitor and participate in this list so that they can share their
expertise with the general public as appropriate.  One of the things we
need to do, is to make sure our members with advanced knowledge help
spread accurate information when questions from newcomers are sent to
the public email forum.  In general, "psubbers" should always attempt to
help newcomers come up to speed.  We all started with no knowledge and
we all benefit when knowledge is delivered to others.  However, we also
expect that the bulk of advanced topics will occur within member-only
forums because of the more targeted environment it provides.  If the
membership program is successful, you should expect that the public
mailing list will become an entry point for general questions by
newcomers.  Newcomers are certainly welcome to hold detailed
discussions, but we anticipate that most of the "expertise" for advanced
topics will occur within member-only forums.


Q) You say things will mostly stay the same.  Yeah, maybe now, but what
about the future?

A) We have always had a commitment to sharing knowledge, not hoarding
it.  Especially when it comes to issues regarding safety and helping
newcomers "learn the ropes".  Ray and I share the same desire, to make
as much information available to the public as possible.  This has been
the goal of PSUBS from day one, and we are not likely to change our
philosophy after all this time.


Q) What about existing photos and project space on the website?

A) We still need to finish up the "photo" section that use to exist and
is now under reconstruction.  Anyone is welcome to submit a photo of
their submersible and have it published on the web site, and all photos
we currently have will eventually be published again.  This is just a
matter of time.  Relative to project space, the current plan is that
eventually only members will be able to obtain such project space on
PSUBS.ORG and have photo-journals that document their work.  Non-members
will still be able to view member projects, but non-members who want to
display their own projects will need to secure free web space with other
providers such as frapper.


Q) What about video?

A) No changes here.  We do not have the resources or bandwidth to feed
video from PSUBS.ORG.  Our video policy for everyone is the same.  Find
a provider where you can upload your video for free (youtube.com for
example) and then send us a link to it.  We will gladly publish a link
to your submersible video whether you are a member or not.






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