RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] planes control surfaces

Vance,

OK, I over simplify. Planes will work but how big do they have to be to be effective? In addition to having a deep chord, was the size of these planes larger in proportion to the size of the sub then the proportion found on a K-250?

R/Jay

Respectfully,

Jay K. Jeffries

Andros Is., Bahamas

Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.

- Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)

From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of vbra676539@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 6:07 PM
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] planes control surfaces

Don't you believe it, rum boy. Perry planes worked nicely at under ONE knot!!! You have to bully them some, but they absolutely do work. Mind you, they are deep chord winglets with side plates. I think the dive planes had four or five separate pieces to weld up, plus the shaft and hyd piston lever arrangement, plus a chunk of magnesium bedded to bare aluminum for electrolysis protection. And the rudder is three feet high, boys and girls.

Mind you, that's to steer an 8 ton sub with a main propulsion package that weighed 900 fricking pounds. That's 900 pounds deadweight, folks--motor, reduction gear, shaft seal, couplings and the prop itself (which weighs 175 pounds all by itself!). Most of us don't have the spare payload, even if we had the spare money. For all that, however, you get 800 plus pounds of thrust (bollard pull). It was, and is, a kick ass drive system.

Back to the live rudder arrangement discussion--keep in mind that motor steering means that the motor has to be providing thrust in order to provide steering. With rudders and planes, the movement of water over the control surfaces keeps the boat moving the way you want it to (for the most part) even after you've turned the thruster off--a handy option. Of course, it's a big penalty, all those control surfaces and their attendant hydraulics and control gear, PLUS the big drive in back, PLUS three or four maneuvering thrusters, but I'm here to tell you, a Perry sub will turn every way but inside out, and=2 0do so with authority. That was a big part of their charm.

Vance

-----Original Message-----
From: Jay K. Jeffries <bottomgun@mindspring.com>
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Sent: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 5:52 am
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] planes control surfaces

Planes are ineffective at speeds somewhere just under 3 kts. That is why many K-250s are reconfigured with a trainable stern motor in place of the rudder.

R/Jay

Respectfully,

Jay K. Jeffries

Andros Is., Bahamas

Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.

- Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)

From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of David Bartsch
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 12:29 AM
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] planes control surfaces

As awesome as the newer nuke boats are, the bow plane and stern plane arrangments of the earlier diesel boats seem the best at keeping both trim angle and depth control. Fast depth changes should be much easier with both the bow and stern working together. This would be handy say at periscope depth or when in close proximity to the ocean floor. With more control over the boats angle, fast and smooth depth changes seem as if these would be a breeze.
In a boat that relied more on planes surfaces than on rotational motor mounts, this seems to be the better configuration. Any thoughts on this?
I am going for view and sight seeing (smooth gliding) rather than slow work horse and object retrieval purposes.
Two joy stick controls (left for stern planes, right for bow planes) and two foot pedals controls (for rudder control). Three indicators...depth, course, and speed with passive sonar speaker where best to hear it. (maybe a depth chart recorder for depth reference.) and some form of motor speed control and battery level indications.KISS.

David Bartsch

Get thousan ds of games on your PC, your mobile phone, and the web with Windows®. Game with Windows

Get the MapQuest Toolbar. Directions, Traffic, Gas Prices & More!