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RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps-- side scan
Jay,
What is thinking behind towing at the surface? You would at least have more absorption, beam spreading, surface noise, etc..
You can get a larger swath if your higher off the bottom.
Thanks,
-a
-----Original message-----
From: "Jay K. Jeffries" bottomgun@mindspring.com
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 20:10:06 -0700
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
> Dean,
>
> You don't have to tow the fish on the bottom. There are two differing
> thoughts on this issue by the two co-developers of the original side scan
> unit, Marty Klein and Doc. Edgerton. Marty says tow near the bottom while
> Doc towed near the surface.
>
> R/Jay
>
>
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Jay K. Jeffries
>
> Andros Is., Bahamas
>
>
>
> Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.
>
> - Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)
>
>
>
> From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Recon1st@aol.com
> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 12:39 PM
> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
>
>
>
> I have thought about these, the price range is doable. How well do they work
> at a
>
> depth of say 350'.? the fish should be fairly easy to construct.
>
>
>
> At one time thought about towing one with the sub, but not very hard
>
>
>
> Dean
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 8/29/2008 10:39:37 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> bottomgun@mindspring.com writes:
>
> Dean,
>
> Excellent results are being had with the Hummingbird unit (model 977 I
> think). You have to build your towfish (Carsten had a spare for sale) and
> add some cable (up to 300 ft.). You should be able to do all of this I
> think for under $1500.
>
> R/Jay
>
>
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Jay K. Jeffries
>
> Andros Is., Bahamas
>
>
>
> Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.
>
> - Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)
>
>
>
> From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Recon1st@aol.com
> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 10:35 AM
> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
>
>
>
> Side scan for sure would be Ideal. Budget will hinder me on this one. Seems
> like last I new
>
> a unit that would do the job is much more than I will have in the entire
> sub.
>
>
>
> I have worked with our local search and Rescue with around a $100,000 unit
> and it would be
>
> nice. heheh more toys
>
>
>
> Dean
>
>
>
> In a message dated 8/29/2008 9:18:30 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> ag@desertstar.com writes:
>
> Dean,
>
> You may want to consider doing initial acquisition of a target with a side
> scan from the surface.
> Cheaper and you can go faster. Then break out the sub when you want to
> explore/document a target in
> detail. Perhaps not as fun as 100% sub, but will probably be quicker.
>
> Hope you find some great wrecks.
>
> -a
>
>
>
> -----Original message-----
> From: Recon1st@aol.com
> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:11:01 -0700
> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
>
> > Hi Ian my goal of 6kts is because of the reason for building.
> > I want to explore Lake Superior. From what I can tell from soundings, most
>
> > of the bottom is
> > featureless flat bottom. Thousands of ship wrecks etc and I want to find
> and
> > document at
> > least one.
> >
> > So the real reason is my age. Lake Superior is large and there is so
> little
> > time.
> >
> > Visibility is good up to 100' or so, and I would like to cruise above the
>
> > bottom 20 30 feet, to view
> > the maximum area. I do have general areas that some of the more famous
> ones
> > went
> > missing, but once again a lot of ground to cover and mostly boring.
> >
> > Many good points have been raised about brakes and I think I understand
> the
> > concerns.
> > My best safety procedure is not to tread in waters deeper than 350'. I
> > totally understand
> > that this is a lot of speed and possibly dangerous.
> >
> > Speed will only be used when I feel safe doing so, and for sure a good
> look
> > at the search
> > area with surface sonar will be standard operating.
> >
> > Forward searching sonar is a must for avoidance, reverse thrust and very
>
> > quick maneuverability are
> > my other solutions. Murky water would be a complete NO NO
> >
> > Besides all else I am going to paint it pretty and will not stand for any
>
> > scratches
> >
> > Dean
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 8/28/2008 3:03:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> > irox@ix.netcom.com writes:
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > kind of similar to Andy's "lots of reverse" idea: If you plan to travel
> at
> > 6knots, then your motor must be able to deliver the required thrust to
> get
> > you to that speed. So, why not just select a motor which can deliver 4x
> > (or what ever multipler is appropriate) the force you need and have a
> > "full emergency reverse" button which would use the full power of the
> motor
> > to slow the sub down - idealy the emergency reverse speed would cut off
> > after a certain period. You would only ever use at maximum 1/4 power for
> > non-emergency operations. We know reverse works and this would involve
> > only beefing up components that are already going to be used (i.e., no
> > new inventions, research and risk required).
> >
> > I've read this thread out of order, so maybe this was already discussed.
> >
> > Dean, what's the reason the sub needs to travel so fast?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Ian.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > >From: Andrew Goldstein <ag@desertstar.com>
> > >Sent: Aug 27, 2008 7:00 AM
> > >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
> > >
> > >The following should be filed under "insane" and not attempted without A
>
> > LOT of testing etc, but for the sake of discussion,
> > >
> > >A primary benefit of the small sub is enhanced dynamics and low inertia,
>
> > which makes systems which are not viable on a large sub possibly
> interesting.
> > Think deep flight vs an SSN....
> > >
> > >If truly for "extreme and eminent" collision, it seems that it may be
> > possible to add a few extra external scuba tanks and some
> > >regulators and a control manifold inside the hull. These extra bottles
> > could normally be held in reserve for backup buoyancy or as a redundant
> ballast
> > blow system. Or in an emergency move a valve on the manifold and blow A
> LOT
> > of air forward of the sub.
> > >An air jet break. It has the added benefit that if you design it wrong
>
> > you may instead get aft firing torpedoes :)
> > >
> > >-a
> > >
> > >
> > >-----Original message-----
> > >From: Recon1st@aol.com
> > >Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 13:48:58 -0700
> > >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
> > >
> > >> R/Jay I understand this problem. And my thoughts are only and extreme
>
> > >> eminent collision would this
> > >> be deployed to avoid or lesson the impact of a collision. If ever
> > deployed
> > >> surfacing is required.
> > >> my prop will be shrouded and foul proofed rudder.
> > >>
> > >> The one scenario I can think of that would not be a good idea to
> deploy
> > >> would be running into a
> > >> fish net. Sure do not need any thing else getting tied up. But for the
>
> > >> boulder that will jump up
> > >> and smack me, I do think this is a viable solution.
> > >>
> > >> Dean
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> In a message dated 8/26/2008 11:30:56 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> > >> bottomgun@mindspring.com writes:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dean,
> > >> You have to be concerned with the chute fouling your
> propulsion/steering
> >
> > >> motors. A big sub could just shred the drogue while you could lose
> > propulsion
> > >> just when you need it most. Remember that the Navy decided that
> drogues
> > and
> > >> speed brakes were a bad idea after much testing and stuck with
> operating
> > >> within the envelope.
> > >> R/Jay
> > >>
> > >> Respectfully,
> > >> Jay K. Jeffries
> > >> Andros Is., Bahamas
> > >> Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.
> > >> - Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > >> [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of
> > Recon1st@aol.com
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 8:51 AM
> > >> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I did not know these were tried on military subs. I just thought it
> was
> > a
> > >> good idea to be able
> > >>
> > >> to stop quicker.
> > >>
> > >> I do think for my purposes just the sea anchor blown out of it's
> housing
> >
> > >> would be best for
> > >>
> > >> my needs. Seems like the manual brake flaps would be quite
> complicated
> > and
> > >> slower than
> > >>
> > >> I would like.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dean
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> In a message dated 8/25/2008 7:43:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> > >> brenthartwig@hotmail.com writes:
> > >>
> > >> Dean,
> > >>
> > >> I found a couple more items. I'm having trouble finding a picture of
> the
> > >> flaps open. I had one a while back.
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> http://imageevent.com/albacore/albacorehistoricphotos;jsessionid=r9qabaad11.
> ti
> > >> ger_s?n=25&z=2&w=0&x=0&c=4&m=24&p=24
> > >> "The parachutes were attached to the after end of Albacore's
> fairwater
> > >> and successfully streamed while the ship was cruising submerged. The
> > >> resulting
> > >> deceleration curves indicated that such a system effectively aided in
>
> > >> emergency recovery."
> > >> Project "Bailout" might not have been the most successful of
> Albacore's
> > >> tests but it certainly showed some creativity was at work."
> > >>
> > >> http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/albacore.htm
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >> Brent Hartwig
> > >>
> > >> ____________________________________
> > >>
> > >> From: brenthartwig@hotmail.com
> > >> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
> > >> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:03:24 -0700
> > >>
> > >> Dean,
> > >>
> > >> You could install some sort of stopping flaps (speed brakes) on both
> > sides
> > >> of your sub that are curved to fit the shape of your hull. Much like
> a
> > US Navy
> > >> test sub USS Albacore. Then operate them with hydraulics or adapted
> > electric
> > >> actuators starting with a unit like the Lenco Trim Tab actuators.
> > >>
> > >> I've been planning on having this type or braking system on my winged
>
> > >> underwater gliding subs. With two stopping flaps on the training edge
> of
> > the wings.
> > >> One opening up, and one down at the same time.
> > >> "Built as a test bed for the U.S. Navy, the Albacore featured a
> > >> tear-drop shaped hull, new diving controls, a dorsal rudder and a new
>
> > >> high-yield steel for her pressure hull. In addition, the Navy, at one
>
> > time
> > >> or another, experimented with speed brakes, contra-rotating screws, a
>
> > >> drag chute, camouflage paint and three different arrangements of
> stern
> > >> control surfaces.
> > >> The NSF report ignited debate within Navy circles over a variety of
> > >> issues such as the merits of twin propellers vs. singles, and the
> > sacrifice
> > >> of surface stability for undersea speed. The result of the
> > recommendations
> > >> and ensuing debate was the U.S.S. Albacore.
> > >>
> > >> The Dorsal rudder was reinstalled and enlarged and the boat
> > >> was outfitted with speed brakes. These brakes - another concept
> borrowed
> > >> from aviation - technology, consisted of 10 hinged panels ringing the
>
> > >> after part of the ship. When needed, they were hydraulically opened
> into
> >
> > >> the waterflow, bringing the boat to a rapid stop."
> > >>
> > >> http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/albacore.htm
> > >>
> > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Albacore_(AGSS-569)
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >> Brent Hartwig
> > >>
> > >> ____________________________________
> > >>
> > >> From: Recon1st@aol.com
> > >> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:55:44 -0400
> > >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air Tanks
> > >> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Frank I am using 12hp for my main propulsion. I gave up trying to
> > calculate
> > >> speed but I should have
> > >>
> > >> plenty. The reason for so much maneuverability is the bottom of Lake
> > >> Superior many granite boulders
> > >>
> > >> etc. I will need to travel pretty fast to cover any amount of the
> Lake.
> > I am
> > >> thinking of a 20 to 30' above the
> > >>
> > >> bottom but at 6 knots or so when one of those big beast jumps up in
> > front of
> > >> me, I am going to need
> > >>
> > >> options. A transfer pump or sliding weight for sure would not fit my
>
> > needs.
> > >> I may even have an
> > >>
> > >> emergency sea anchor deployment for quick stops. Reverting back to my
>
> > drag
> > >> racing days.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I loved the dry dive video. I learned much watching it maneuver I
> have
> > >> greater confidence that my
> > >>
> > >> efforts should yield the kind of performance I am looking for. Not to
>
> > >> mention it oughta be a real
> > >>
> > >> hoot to drive hehehhe
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dean
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> In a message dated 8/24/2008 8:15:39 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> > >> ShellyDalg@aol.com writes:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Hi Dean. I think you're chasing the right idea with front and back
> dive
> > >> planes. I had considered that but let it go because of the extra work.
> It
> > just
> > >> seems to me that back dive planes would be a real plus if you have
> > enough
> > >> power to make them work. Did you see the "dry dive" videos? With the
> > center
> > >> mounted dive planes the sub stays level when ascending/diving but it
> > would be nice
> > >> to be able to angle the sub just with the dive planes. Like you say,
> > much
> > >> like flying. I don't know how much speed you'd have to get to make
> the
> > dive
> > >> planes overcome the front/back balance, but if it's close enough to
> > neutral, it
> > >> may not take that much power.
> > >>
> > >> Twin trim tanks front and back with a transfer pump would help if the
>
> > pump
> > >> was able to shift weight fast enough. Maybe a sliding drop weight
> would
> > be
> > >> less trouble to make. I will be able to shift the seat forward and
> > backward a
> > >> little and I'm hoping that will give me a little angle change. Damn,
> I
> > wanna
> > >> get this thing wet soon! Frank D.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ____________________________________
> > >>
> > >> It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal
> > _here_
> > >> (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) .
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ____________________________________
> > >>
> > >> It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal
> > _here_
> > >> (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) .
> > >> =
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ____________________________________
> > >>
> > >> It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal
> > _here_
> > >> (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) .
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your
>
> > travel
> > >> deal here.
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> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
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