Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps

In a message dated 8/28/2008 3:03:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time, irox@ix.netcom.com writes:

Hi,

kind of similar to Andy's "lots of reverse" idea: If you plan to travel at
6knots, then your motor must be able to deliver the required thrust to get
you to that speed. So, why not just select a motor which can deliver 4x
(or what ever multipler is appropriate) the force you need and have a
"full emergency reverse" button which would use the full power of the motor
to slow the sub down - idealy the emergency reverse speed would cut off
after a certain period. You would only ever use at maximum 1/4 power for
non-emergency operations. We know reverse works and this would involve
only beefing up components that are already going to be used (i.e., no
new inventions, research and risk required).

I've read this thread out of order, so maybe this was already discussed.

Dean, what's the reason the sub needs to travel so fast?

Cheers,
Ian.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Andrew Goldstein <ag@desertstar.com>
>Sent: Aug 27, 2008 7:00 AM
>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
>
>The following should be filed under "insane" and not attempted without A LOT of testing etc, but for the sake of discussion,
>
>A primary benefit of the small sub is enhanced dynamics and low inertia, which makes systems which are not viable on a large sub possibly interesting. Think deep flight vs an SSN....
>
>If truly for "extreme and eminent" collision, it seems that it may be possible to add a few extra external scuba tanks and some
>regulators and a control manifold inside the hull. These extra bottles could normally be held in reserve for backup buoyancy or as a redundant ballast blow system. Or in an emergency move a valve on the manifold and blow A LOT of air forward of the sub.
>An air jet break.   It has the added benefit that if you design it wrong you may instead get aft firing torpedoes :)
>
>-a
>
>
>-----Original message-----
>From: Recon1st@aol.com
>Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 13:48:58 -0700
>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
>
>> R/Jay I understand this problem. And my thoughts are only and extreme
>> eminent collision would this
>> be deployed to avoid or lesson the impact of a collision. If ever deployed
>> surfacing is required.
>> my prop will be shrouded and foul proofed rudder.
>>
>> The one scenario I can think of that would not be a good idea to deploy
>> would be running into a
>> fish net. Sure do not need any thing else getting tied up. But for the
>> boulder that will jump up
>> and smack me, I do think this is a viable solution.
>>
>> Dean
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 8/26/2008 11:30:56 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
>> bottomgun@mindspring.com writes:
>>
>>
>> Dean,
>> You have to be concerned with the chute fouling your propulsion/steering
>> motors. A big sub could just shred the drogue while you could lose propulsion
>> just when you need it most. Remember that the Navy decided that drogues and
>> speed brakes were a bad idea after much testing and stuck with operating
>> within the envelope.
>> R/Jay
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jay K. Jeffries
>> Andros Is., Bahamas
>> Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.
>> - Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)
>>
>>
>> From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>> [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Recon1st@aol.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 8:51 AM
>> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
>>
>>
>> I did not know these were tried on military subs. I just thought it was a
>> good idea to be able
>>
>> to stop quicker.
>>
>> I do think for my purposes just the sea anchor blown out of it's housing
>> would be best for
>>
>> my needs. Seems like the manual brake flaps would be quite complicated and
>> slower than
>>
>> I would like.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dean
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 8/25/2008 7:43:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
>> brenthartwig@hotmail.com writes:
>>
>> Dean,
>>
>> I found a couple more items. I'm having trouble finding a picture of the
>> flaps open. I had one a while back.
>>
>> http://imageevent.com/albacore/albacorehistoricphotos;jsessionid=r9qabaad11.ti
>> ger_s?n=25&z=2&w=0&x=0&c=4&m=24&p=24
>> "The parachutes were attached to the after end of Albacore's fairwater
>> and successfully streamed while the ship was cruising submerged. The
>> resulting
>> deceleration curves indicated that such a system effectively aided in
>> emergency recovery."
>> Project "Bailout" might not have been the most successful of Albacore's
>> tests but it certainly showed some creativity was at work."
>>
>> http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/albacore.htm
>>
>> Regards,
>> Brent Hartwig
>>
>> ____________________________________
>>
>> From: brenthartwig@hotmail.com
>> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
>> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:03:24 -0700
>>
>> Dean,
>>
>> You could install some sort of stopping flaps (speed brakes) on both sides
>> of your sub that are curved to fit the shape of your hull. Much like a US Navy
>> test sub USS Albacore. Then operate them with hydraulics or adapted electric
>> actuators starting with a unit like the Lenco Trim Tab actuators.
>>
>> I've been planning on having this type or braking system on my winged
>> underwater gliding subs. With two stopping flaps on the training edge of the wings.
>> One opening up, and one down at the same time.
>> "Built as a test bed for the U.S. Navy, the Albacore featured a
>> tear-drop shaped hull, new diving controls, a dorsal rudder and a new
>> high-yield steel for her pressure hull. In addition, the Navy, at one time
>> or another, experimented with speed brakes, contra-rotating screws, a
>> drag chute, camouflage paint and three different arrangements of stern
>> control surfaces.
>> The NSF report ignited debate within Navy circles over a variety of
>> issues such as the merits of twin propellers vs. singles, and the sacrifice
>> of surface stability for undersea speed. The result of the recommendations
>> and ensuing debate was the U.S.S. Albacore.
>>
>> The Dorsal rudder was reinstalled and enlarged and the boat
>> was outfitted with speed brakes. These brakes - another concept borrowed
>> from aviation - technology, consisted of 10 hinged panels ringing the
>> after part of the ship. When needed, they were hydraulically opened into
>> the waterflow, bringing the boat to a rapid stop."
>>
>> http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/albacore.htm
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Albacore_(AGSS-569)
>>
>> Regards,
>> Brent Hartwig
>>
>> ____________________________________
>>
>> From: Recon1st@aol.com
>> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:55:44 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air Tanks
>> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>>
>>
>>
>> Frank I am using 12hp for my main propulsion. I gave up trying to calculate
>> speed but I should have
>>
>> plenty. The reason for so much maneuverability is the bottom of Lake
>> Superior many granite boulders
>>
>> etc. I will need to travel pretty fast to cover any amount of the Lake. I am
>> thinking of a 20 to 30' above the
>>
>> bottom but at 6 knots or so when one of those big beast jumps up in front of
>> me, I am going to need
>>
>> options. A transfer pump or sliding weight for sure would not fit my needs.
>> I may even have an
>>
>> emergency sea anchor deployment for quick stops. Reverting back to my drag
>> racing days.
>>
>>
>>
>> I loved the dry dive video. I learned much watching it maneuver I have
>> greater confidence that my
>>
>> efforts should yield the kind of performance I am looking for. Not to
>> mention it oughta be a real
>>
>> hoot to drive hehehhe
>>
>>
>>
>> Dean
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 8/24/2008 8:15:39 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
>> ShellyDalg@aol.com writes:
>>
>>
>> Hi Dean. I think you're chasing the right idea with front and back dive
>> planes. I had considered that but let it go because of the extra work. It just
>> seems to me that back dive planes would be a real plus if you have enough
>> power to make them work. Did you see the "dry dive" videos? With the center
>> mounted dive planes the sub stays level when ascending/diving but it would be nice
>> to be able to angle the sub just with the dive planes. Like you say, much
>> like flying. I don't know how much speed you'd have to get to make the dive
>> planes overcome the front/back balance, but if it's close enough to neutral, it
>> may not take that much power.
>>
>> Twin trim tanks front and back with a transfer pump would help if the pump
>> was able to shift weight fast enough. Maybe a sliding drop weight would be
>> less trouble to make. I will be able to shift the seat forward and backward a
>> little and I'm hoping that will give me a little angle change. Damn, I wanna
>> get this thing wet soon! Frank D.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________
>>
>> It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal _here_
>> (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________
>>
>> It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal _here_
>> (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) .
>> =
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________
>>
>> It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal _here_
>> (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel
>> deal here.
>> (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)
>>
>>
>
>
>
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