RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Restoring a Biber (or Beaver) midget submarine

[irox <irox@ix.netcom.com>]

Or it might kill you.  Weight and calculations are probably the most
important part of building a submarine.  To skip them is surely going
to waste your time, afford and money at best, take your life at worst.

Ian.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Brent Hartwig <brenthartwig@hotmail.com>
>Sent: Aug 12, 2008 1:35 PM
>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Restoring a Biber (or Beaver) midget submarine
>
>
>Hi Jay,
> 
>I agree that weight and balance calculations are very useful design tools that can save a design concept, improve it, or see that you need to abandoned it.   It's not required however for one to build a functional sub. But if one chooses to take that gamble, they might in the end, just have the meanist lawn ornament in there neighborhood. Brent 
>
>From: bottomgun@mindspring.comTo: personal_submersibles@psubs.orgSubject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Restoring a Biber (or Beaver) midget submarineDate: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 12:23:58 -0400
>
>
>
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>
>Brent,
>While you can disclaim the need for a weight & balance calculation (does not have to be “professional” and is actually pretty simple…just requires a little discipline) every naval architecture and submarine design book that is worthwhile starts the design spiral.  First define your requirements, next compose an initial layout sketch, then start your weight & balance calculations, and then rough stability calculations…at any point along the way the numbers do not look right, you go back to the start and refine your spiral until you have a stable design.  While there are submersibles that have operated without these, there are a lot more sitting as rusting lawn ornaments…the Needlefish is an expensive example.  We have an obligation as PSUBers to promote safe designs and safe design practices, any other avenue is negligent.  This doesn’t mean that we can’t daydream or explore innovative ideas but we must carefully label these as unproven and/or dangerous so the neophyte doesn’t go down the wrong avenue and the experts don’t label us as cranks.
> 
>The Biber design was a proven death trap and this is why the Nazis moved on to the Seehunde design which was better but still deadly to its operators.  The Seehunde was still in the experimental stage when it was deployed as a weapon and the operators recognized missions as being suicidal.  New submarine service awards were developed to recognize K-verbände members who had completed only one mission…no one ever survived to receive the gold-level award.  
>R/Jay
> 
>
>Respectfully,
>Jay K. Jeffries
>Andros Is., Bahamas
> 
>Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. 
>    - Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)
> 
>
>
>From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brent HartwigSent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 2:06 AMTo: personal_submersibles@psubs.orgSubject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Restoring a Biber (or Beaver) midget submarine
> 
>Greetings Joe, I've been meaning to tell you how much I enjoyed looking at you new CAD work on your float plane replica. You could make a very nice scaled down RC plane off those assembly models. With regards to making a Biber and/or Seehund looking PSUB, if a person really wanted to design and construct one, I don't see any massive road blocks in making a safe one. We have so many material, processes, and equipment options now days. They are a pretty sleek hydrodynamic design when compared to many PSUBs and they can be configured so many different ways internally. There shape isn't really all that odd for a sub.  I don't think that not knowing what the results of a weights and moments calcs, would be on ones first configuration efforts, shouldn't be a reason to not even try. I see so many guys with now successful PSUBS, that likely didn't do any real serious weights and moments calcs on there PSUB having to place a lot of lead and other things in different places when they first put there sub's in water to get them to work as desired.  I would be interested to know what percentage of PSUB's had proper professional weights and moments calcs done on that subs design before it was finished, and what percentage of those are now reasonably functional subs.  Ya I know, I'm a pain in the arz.  I just don't throw in the towel on ideas because I can't know for sure how every thing will work out in the end design in advance.  Yes a Biber and/or Seehund PSUB look alike sub would likely be more work then a basic modern PSUB design, and they might have some operational disadvantages when compared to a given PSUB. But like we talk about from time to time, are subs should be designed for what we want them to do. So in this case, we would want them to look like really scary cool WWII German Midget subs, that also work for a lot of different kinds of adventures. Then much later they them selves would likely be in a museum for many more to enjoy.  Mine however would be placed in my live aboard submarines living room, as a fish tank for sharks. ;)' A balanced submarine has a midget sub attached on each side. 
>
>Cheers,Brent Hartwig
> 
>
>
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>From: joeperkel@hotmail.comTo: personal_submersibles@psubs.orgSubject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Restoring a Biber (or Beaver) midget submarineDate: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:23:18 +0000   ".......but found many constraints and would have found more once he became involved with weight and balance along with stability calculations......." True, so true! I kept putting off weight and balance calcs despite the software capability. More than any other single source, I found Jay's input the most valuable in remaining on course for a viable design. A military replica PSUB is possible, just look at Kraka for U-boat influences but, a Biber, or Seehund (In my opinion) should be considered as museum display candidates for the very reasons Jay points out. The sea will never leave me. I am building after all,...a seaplane but, as you can see, I still keep tabs on what you guys are doing. I also found a way to dedicate my psub efforts on my website  http://sopwith-baby.com/Project_Genesis_II.html Take care! Joe
>
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>From: bottomgun@mindspring.comTo: personal_submersibles@psubs.orgSubject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Restoring a Biber (or Beaver) midget submarineDate: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 17:28:12 -0400
>
>Jens,
>This is Jay not Ray. J  When dealing with a small submersible there are a lot of constraints to design due to the size.  While it is interesting to build a historical look-a-like, we should strive to follow modern conventions for the sake of safety.  Any vessel that is used for war has a greater inherent risk of disaster and small submersibles were generally considered one way missions…these risks are accepted as part of the design objectives.  In our case since we are not dealing with a war vessel and start from a different set of design objectives that should place safety paramount, we will make many different design decisions than those found in the Seehunde.  In other words, we would be better to start from ground zero in design of a PSUB.  
> 
>Joe Perkel looked at designing replica NR-1 and Alvin look-a-likes upon a K-350 hull.  He retired from this effort for other reasons but found many constraints and would have found more once he became involved with weight and balance along with stability calculations.
> 
>Thanks for the reference, found a copy that I will purchase next payday to add to my large library on submarines.
>R/Jay
> 
>Respectfully,
>Jay K. Jeffries
>Andros Is., Bahamas
> 
>Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. 
>    - Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)
> 
> 
>-----Original Message-----From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Jens LalandSent: Monday, August 11, 2008 4:45 PMTo: personal_submersibles@psubs.orgSubject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Restoring a Biber (or Beaver) midget submarine
> 
>Ray...
> 
>Good to hear you say this... :)
> 
>Are you familiar with the book "Die Seehunde - Klein-U-Boote, Letzte
>deutsche Initiative im Seekrieg 1939-1945" by Klaus Mattes; Verlag E.S.
>Mittler & Sohn GmbH, 1995, ISBN 3-8702-0484-7, 224 pages.
> 
>The book presents a thouroughly presentation of the Seehunde design,
>complete with excellent documentation in the form of technical data,
>images, sketches, drawings, etc., etc.
> 
>In addition it has a big section covering the various operational aspects
>of the type, and finally it also has an interesting coverage of what the
>french navy used it for after the war was over (up to the mid-50s).
> 
>regards,
>Jens
> 
>** Jens,
>**
>** Thanks for the great image of Biber, I have Lakowski's book someplace and
>** will have to dig it out for review.  Instead of building a Biber
>** look-a-like, consideration might be given to the Seehunde as it was a more
>** stable vessel (relatively).
>**
>** R/Jay
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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