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Hi Brent, The issue with those two in particular is how they lie in the water with minuscule reserve buoyancy. Not conducive to safe open water ops any time the hatch is opened. Assuming historical accuracy in a replica, no amount of modernization would change that. Assuming a historically accurate Biber, .....well now gasoline in a sub? Replace with the tiny Yanmar and you still have a low lying narrow beam ship. Best then to up the size to what Kraka became. Not to mention UC3. Thanks Brent! Joe From: brenthartwig@hotmail.com To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Restoring a Biber (or Beaver) midget submarine Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 23:05:55 -0700 Greetings Joe, I've been meaning to tell you how much I enjoyed looking at you new CAD work on your float plane replica. You could make a very nice scaled down RC plane off those assembly models. With regards to making a Biber and/or Seehund looking PSUB, if a person really wanted to design and construct one, I don't see any massive road blocks in making a safe one. We have so many material, processes, and equipment options now days. They are a pretty sleek hydrodynamic design when compared to many PSUBs and they can be configured so many different ways internally. There shape isn't really all that odd for a sub. I don't think that not knowing what the results of a weights and moments calcs, would be on ones first configuration efforts, shouldn't be a reason to not even try. I see so many guys with now successful PSUBS, that likely didn't do any real serious weights and moments calcs on there PSUB having to place a lot of lead and other things in different places when they first put there sub's in water to get them to work as desired. I would be interested to know what percentage of PSUB's had proper professional weights and moments calcs done on that subs design before it was finished, and what percentage of those are now reasonably functional subs. Ya I know, I'm a pain in the arz. I just don't throw in the towel on ideas because I can't know for sure how every thing will work out in the end design in advance. Yes a Biber and/or Seehund PSUB look alike sub would likely be more work then a basic modern PSUB design, and they might have some operational disadvantages when compared to a given PSUB. But like we talk about from time to time, are subs should be designed for what we want them to do. So in this case, we would want them to look like really scary cool WWII German Midget subs, that also work for a lot of different kinds of adventures. Then much later they them selves would likely be in a museum for many more to enjoy. Mine however would be placed in my live aboard submarines living room, as a fish tank for sharks. ;)' A balanced submarine has a midget sub attached on each side. Cheers, Brent Hartwig From: joeperkel@hotmail.com To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Restoring a Biber (or Beaver) midget submarine Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:23:18 +0000 ".......but found many constraints and would have found more once he became involved with weight and balance along with stability calculations......." True, so true! I kept putting off weight and balance calcs despite the software capability. More than any other single source, I found Jay's input the most valuable in remaining on course for a viable design. A military replica PSUB is possible, just look at Kraka for U-boat influences but, a Biber, or Seehund (In my opinion) should be considered as museum display candidates for the very reasons Jay points out. The sea will never leave me. I am building after all,...a seaplane but, as you can see, I still keep tabs on what you guys are doing. I also found a way to dedicate my psub efforts on my website http://sopwith-baby.com/Project_Genesis_II.html Take care! Joe From: bottomgun@mindspring.com To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Restoring a Biber (or Beaver) midget submarine Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 17:28:12 -0400 Jens, This is Jay not Ray. J When dealing with a small submersible there are a lot of constraints to design due to the size. While it is interesting to build a historical look-a-like, we should strive to follow modern conventions for the sake of safety. Any vessel that is used for war has a greater inherent risk of disaster and small submersibles were generally considered one way missions…these risks are accepted as part of the design objectives. In our case since we are not dealing with a war vessel and start from a different set of design objectives that should place safety paramount, we will make many different design decisions than those found in the Seehunde. In other words, we would be better to start from ground zero in design of a PSUB.
Joe Perkel looked at designing replica NR-1 and Alvin look-a-likes upon a K-350 hull. He retired from this effort for other reasons but found many constraints and would have found more once he became involved with weight and balance along with stability calculations.
Thanks for the reference, found a copy that I will purchase next payday to add to my large library on submarines. R/Jay
Respectfully, Jay K. Jeffries Andros Is., Bahamas
Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. - Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)
-----Original Message-----
Ray...
Good to hear you say this... :)
Are you familiar with the book "Die Seehunde - Klein-U-Boote, Letzte deutsche Initiative im Seekrieg 1939-1945" by Klaus Mattes; Verlag E.S. Mittler & Sohn GmbH, 1995, ISBN 3-8702-0484-7, 224 pages.
The book presents a thouroughly presentation of the Seehunde design, complete with excellent documentation in the form of technical data, images, sketches, drawings, etc., etc.
In addition it has a big section covering the various operational aspects of the type, and finally it also has an interesting coverage of what the french navy used it for after the war was over (up to the mid-50s).
regards, Jens
** Jens, ** ** Thanks for the great image of Biber, I have Lakowski's book someplace and ** will have to dig it out for review. Instead of building a Biber ** look-a-like, consideration might be given to the Seehunde as it was a more ** stable vessel (relatively). ** ** R/Jay
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