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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 200ton 18meter Live aboard submarine
Øystein, thank you for the Orcina pointer. I'll download their
software and try it out, also I'll contact them for a quote on
simulating the sub (on the surface and submerged).
Handling during poor weather is definitely a concern. Here's an
extra from the Albacore website:
The round shape of Albacore's hull made for uncomfortable riding
on the surface in any kind of a sea. The natural tendency was for
the boat to submerge when running into any kind of a sea. A vivid
example was Albacore's encounter with a hurricane when returning
to Portsmouth from Florida after a trial period off Ft. Lauderdale.
Yeoman Butch Jordan: "I can remember we ran into a hurricane on
our way home from Florida. Heavy waves were pounding us and
coming over the top of the sail. We had to secure the bridge watch
and send the OOD and lookout down to the Control Room. Water was
coming into the boat through the main air induction and filling
the machinery space bilges. We had to keep the main induction open
to run the engines because our battery was pretty flat. Fortunately,
we ran out of the storm before we flooded the bilges or ran out of
battery. The control room watch observed the digital depth gauge
cycling between 9 and 60 feet - while running on the surface!"
There's also some pictures of the Albacore in a hurricane on the
same page (kind of near the bottom):
http://www.ussalbacore.org/html/albacore_story.html
Kind of sounds and looks like a nightmare. Although, with a 200ton
submarine, you might submerge to a safe depth and deploy the ROV
to continue operations while the storm passes over.
Cheers,
Ian.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Øystein Skarholm <skarholm@gmail.com>
>Sent: Dec 23, 2007 9:56 AM
>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 200ton 18meter Live aboard submarine
>
>I am now sitting offshore on board an ROV vessel "Far Saga" in the North
>Sea. The weather is not to bad Wind 35Kn and increasing, waves are 2,7
>significant 6( m max) and the vessel's MRU " Motion response Unit" shows a
>heave on max + - 2 mtr on the center of gravity. The waves are also
>increasing so around midnight working limit for the ROV will probably be on
>the limit ( 5m Sign. and 12m heave ) If you had been out here with a 18 m
>200 Te vessel, in these wawes, rest assure that the wave impact forces (
>Slamming) and surface current will have an enormous effect on the vessel.
>And if you have to go perpendicular to the waves the forces will be even
>greater. I would strongly suggest a simulation before Wilifred takes it
>across the ocean for you. I use Orcaflex for dynamic calculation of
>flexibles and sub sea structures. But I do not have enough experience with
>the program to help you on the sub. However, ORCINA could do this for you. I
>don't think it would be to expensive either.....they er are fast and GOOD at
>it. Then you could find out pretty much what you want, such as ( but not
>limited to)
>
>* Dynamic forces due to waves and current, from all directions, and differnt
>vawe height and current.
>* Maximum heave, roll, pitch and yaw on the vessel
>
>The simulation is done on the preferred timeline, for example over a 24 hour
>period. The whole simulation, setup included, should not take more then a
>few hours. Maybe a small price to pay before thinking of crossing an ocean.
>
>Here is the link to Orcina:
>http://www.orcina.com/index.php
>
>
>
>Øystein
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On 12/23/07, irox <irox@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Øystein,
>>
>> not very much of the sub is above the surface, so not very much
>> of the vessel is exposed to the wind and waves. I've heard Wil
>> say this many times, but it wasn't until I did the bow/stern
>> thruster calculations. I'm still a tiny bit skeptical that
>> a vessel this size can be moved so easily with so little power,
>> but I will test out the calculations when the vessel arrives
>> and if needed I adjust engine requirements. Even if a 30hp
>> engine does just fine, I'm kind of interested in finding out
>> how it performs with a 370hp engine.
>>
>> Yes, I think in big storms with 10meter waves you would feel
>> it at 50meters. I remember reading some where about a small
>> submersible report from a dive that came up in (I think) 2meter
>> waves, they said they could feel them at around 100feet. If
>> I find the report I'll post it again, interesting read (just
>> some passengers write up of trip in a small submersible).
>> Of course, a large submarine might be less effected, but i'm
>> sure large waves will be felt.
>>
>> Going deeper? Yeah, I'd love to. I think the maximum operational
>> depth for this sub will be 300M requiring an unmanned depth
>> test to 600M. I'm not sure if the sub will ever get rated
>> to 300M, I will most likely settle for less for fear of loosing
>> my vessel. Each time I change the vessel's operational depth,
>> I will do an unmanned test to x2 or x3 operational depth.
>>
>> Maybe there is another way to solve wave motion effect, maybe
>> so sort of realtime dynamic stability system (the sub is
>> dynamically climbing and diving at the same rate as the wave
>> to cancel it out).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Ian.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >From: Øystein Skarholm <skarholm@gmail.com>
>> >Sent: Dec 23, 2007 7:19 AM
>> >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 200ton 18meter Live aboard submarine
>> >
>> >Ian
>> >
>> >It sounds like you are about to experience the adventure of your life. I
>> am
>> >just being curious here, but since this a submarine that is to be capable
>> of
>> >ocean crossing, do you think that 30 - 100 HP is enough to keep a 200 Te
>> sub
>> >up against wind and wether in the ocean? If you submerge to 50 m during a
>> >storm you can still get seasick because of the movements down there. or
>> >maybe you can go deeper?
>> >
>> >
>> >Øystein
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >On 12/23/07, Ian Roxborough <irox@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hi guys,
>> >>
>> >> I guess this announcement is a little over due, but every time
>> >> I start writing it I end up working on the design...
>> >>
>> >> Anyway, I've managed to get the budget to hire Wilfried to build
>> >> a 200ton concrete hull. I'm very exicited that I get to be one
>> >> of first people to experiment with this type of submarine.
>> >>
>> >> Funny, I start out (I like many of us) with grand large submarine
>> >> designs 10 years ago, learning more and refining my designs as they
>> >> get smaller (10man sub, to 4, to 2 person), then designing around
>> >> the K350 hull rather than reinventing the small sub. It feels
>> >> strange to have my first sub be so close to the fanciful designs
>> >> I started with.
>> >>
>> >> These are the rough and working specs, everything can change,
>> >> if I make this a 370hp water ski towing sub, the range will be
>> >> a lot less, if I run out of battery budget or space, then submerged
>> >> range will be less, if I end up with more money to spend and more
>> >> space, the range will be greater. Also, so much space, I can add
>> >> more fuel, more batteries, more heads, etc. very easily. These
>> >> specs are far higher than my original hopes, so I don't mind if
>> >> I have to cut things back because of cost or performance.
>> >>
>> >> The Specs:
>> >>
>> >> Displacement: 200tons
>> >> Length: 18meter
>> >> Width: 4.3meters
>> >> Height: 6.5meters (depending on sail design)
>> >>
>> >> Operational dive depth: 50meters (unmanned 150M test required)
>> >> 100-250meters (after refit/testing)
>> >> Delivery test is 30meters.
>> >>
>> >> Surface range: 3000+miles
>> >> Submerged range: 300miles at slow speed (~1.5knots)
>> >> Submerged endurance: 4 people, 1 week (with 3x emergence)
>> >> or 10 people, 24hours (with 10x emergence)
>> >>
>> >> Interior floor space: 40square meters (430sqft)
>> >>
>> >> 1 forward view port, diameter 1 meter
>> >> 6 - 8 side facing view ports, 3-4 per side diamter (50cms)
>> >> 1 hatch leading to the sail
>> >> 1 hatch on the aft deck (for possible docking
>> >> with a small sub, diver lockout unit, loading/unloading
>> >> cargo/equipment/supplies)
>> >>
>> >> Propultion/power:
>> >> diesel engine belt drive 30-100hp
>> >> electric motor belt drive 3-10-30hp
>> >> diesel generator 100hp? (or 2x 50hp)
>> >> ~3tons batteries
>> >> diesel fuel (~3000liters?)
>> >> electric bow truster
>> >> electric stern thruster
>> >>
>> >> Life support:
>> >> 12 x 3454 Liters O2 Cylinders (Luxfer Aluminum Oxygen Cylinders
>> >> M-110-0760)
>> >> Providing 41448 Liters of airs.
>> >> 10362 liters for operational supply.
>> >> 31086 liters for emergency supply.
>> >> 112 man days (16 weeks) of O2.
>> >>
>> >> Ballast:
>> >> Forward and Aft external ballast tanks (maybe external side tanks as
>> >> well)
>> >> 3 ton internal tank with an electrical pump (can be VBT)
>> >> 2 ton (1 ton + 2x 0.5ton) internal hard tanks for trim
>> >> and VBT, can be operated with presision electical pump or high
>> >> pressure
>> >> gas
>> >>
>> >> I've been testing out different CAD packages, I uploaded a couple of
>> >> images, so much stuff missing or in the wrong place. Just
>> >> kicking around some ideas. I'll have some better images ready soon.
>> >>
>> >> http://monkeyview.net/id/2768/substuff/csub200/rough/index.vhtml
>> >> http://monkeyview.net/id/2768/substuff/csub200/rough/csub200_2d_000.jpg
>> >> http://monkeyview.net/id/2768/substuff/csub200/rough/subc200_3d.jpg
>> >>
>> >> One the main goals I have with this sub is to keep it as flexible
>> >> and reconfigurable as possible. So I want to be able to do things
>> >> like detach the luxary yatch sail, and attach the ROV deployment
>> >> sail to go and investigate a shipwreck from a safe distance or
>> >> that is outside of my operational depth.
>> >>
>> >> The working budget is fairly low for a project of this size.
>> >> The hull cost $90K usd, I hope to have the sub fitted out for
>> >> $45K, and hoping to keep an another $45K for extras, like ROVs
>> >> and plasma TV. We'll see how this works out, whatever happens,
>> >> I'm sure I can get this thing full operation even if I'm missing
>> >> the plasma TV.
>> >>
>> >> I'm really looking forward to this adventure. Please feel free
>> >> to share your throughts and ideas about this project.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> Ian.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> ************************************************************************
>> >>
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>> >>
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>> >
>> >
>> >--
>> >Best Regards
>> >Øystein Skarholm
>> >www.ubat.no
>> >+47 92 40 53 72
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>--
>Best Regards
>Øystein Skarholm
>www.ubat.no
>+47 92 40 53 72
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