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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 200ton 18meter Live aboard submarine
I am now sitting offshore on board an ROV vessel "Far Saga" in the North Sea. The weather is not to bad Wind 35Kn and increasing, waves are 2,7 significant 6( m max) and the vessel's MRU " Motion response Unit" shows a heave on max + - 2 mtr on the center of gravity. The waves are also increasing so around midnight working limit for the ROV will probably be on the limit ( 5m Sign. and 12m heave ) If you had been out here with a 18 m 200 Te vessel, in these wawes, rest assure that the wave impact forces ( Slamming) and surface current will have an enormous effect on the vessel. And if you have to go perpendicular to the waves the forces will be even greater. I would strongly suggest a simulation before Wilifred takes it across the ocean for you. I use Orcaflex for dynamic calculation of flexibles and sub sea structures. But I do not have enough experience with the program to help you on the sub. However, ORCINA could do this for you. I don't think it would be to expensive either.....they er are fast and GOOD at it. Then you could find out pretty much what you want, such as ( but not limited to)
* Dynamic forces due to waves and current, from all directions, and differnt vawe height and current.
* Maximum heave, roll, pitch and yaw on the vessel
The simulation is done on the preferred timeline, for example over a 24 hour period. The whole simulation, setup included, should not take more then a few hours. Maybe a small price to pay before thinking of crossing an ocean.
Here is the link to Orcina:
Øystein
On 12/23/07, irox <irox@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Hi Øystein,
not very much of the sub is above the surface, so not very much
of the vessel is exposed to the wind and waves. I've heard Wil
say this many times, but it wasn't until I did the bow/stern
thruster calculations. I'm still a tiny bit skeptical that
a vessel this size can be moved so easily with so little power,
but I will test out the calculations when the vessel arrives
and if needed I adjust engine requirements. Even if a 30hp
engine does just fine, I'm kind of interested in finding out
how it performs with a 370hp engine.
Yes, I think in big storms with 10meter waves you would feel
it at 50meters. I remember reading some where about a small
submersible report from a dive that came up in (I think) 2meter
waves, they said they could feel them at around 100feet. If
I find the report I'll post it again, interesting read (just
some passengers write up of trip in a small submersible).
Of course, a large submarine might be less effected, but i'm
sure large waves will be felt.
Going deeper? Yeah, I'd love to. I think the maximum operational
depth for this sub will be 300M requiring an unmanned depth
test to 600M. I'm not sure if the sub will ever get rated
to 300M, I will most likely settle for less for fear of loosing
my vessel. Each time I change the vessel's operational depth,
I will do an unmanned test to x2 or x3 operational depth.
Maybe there is another way to solve wave motion effect, maybe
so sort of realtime dynamic stability system (the sub is
dynamically climbing and diving at the same rate as the wave
to cancel it out).
Cheers,
Ian.
-----Original Message-----
>From: Øystein Skarholm <skarholm@gmail.com>
>Sent: Dec 23, 2007 7:19 AM
>To:
personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] 200ton 18meter Live aboard submarine
>
>Ian
>
>It sounds like you are about to experience the adventure of your life. I am
>just being curious here, but since this a submarine that is to be capable of
>ocean crossing, do you think that 30 - 100 HP is enough to keep a 200 Te sub
>up against wind and wether in the ocean? If you submerge to 50 m during a
>storm you can still get seasick because of the movements down there. or
>maybe you can go deeper?
>
>
>Øystein
>
>
>
>On 12/23/07, Ian Roxborough <
irox@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> I guess this announcement is a little over due, but every time
>> I start writing it I end up working on the design...
>>
>> Anyway, I've managed to get the budget to hire Wilfried to build
>> a 200ton concrete hull. I'm very exicited that I get to be one
>> of first people to experiment with this type of submarine.
>>
>> Funny, I start out (I like many of us) with grand large submarine
>> designs 10 years ago, learning more and refining my designs as they
>> get smaller (10man sub, to 4, to 2 person), then designing around
>> the K350 hull rather than reinventing the small sub. It feels
>> strange to have my first sub be so close to the fanciful designs
>> I started with.
>>
>> These are the rough and working specs, everything can change,
>> if I make this a 370hp water ski towing sub, the range will be
>> a lot less, if I run out of battery budget or space, then submerged
>> range will be less, if I end up with more money to spend and more
>> space, the range will be greater. Also, so much space, I can add
>> more fuel, more batteries, more heads, etc. very easily. These
>> specs are far higher than my original hopes, so I don't mind if
>> I have to cut things back because of cost or performance.
>>
>> The Specs:
>>
>> Displacement: 200tons
>> Length: 18meter
>> Width: 4.3meters
>> Height:
6.5meters (depending on sail design)
>>
>> Operational dive depth: 50meters (unmanned 150M test required)
>> 100-250meters (after refit/testing)
>> Delivery test is 30meters.
>>
>> Surface range: 3000+miles
>> Submerged range: 300miles at slow speed (~1.5knots)
>> Submerged endurance: 4 people, 1 week (with 3x emergence)
>> or 10 people, 24hours (with 10x emergence)
>>
>> Interior floor space: 40square meters (430sqft)
>>
>> 1 forward view port, diameter 1 meter
>> 6 - 8 side facing view ports, 3-4 per side diamter (50cms)
>> 1 hatch leading to the sail
>> 1 hatch on the aft deck (for possible docking
>> with a small sub, diver lockout unit, loading/unloading
>> cargo/equipment/supplies)
>>
>> Propultion/power:
>> diesel engine belt drive 30-100hp
>> electric motor belt drive 3-10-30hp
>> diesel generator 100hp? (or 2x 50hp)
>> ~3tons batteries
>> diesel fuel (~3000liters?)
>> electric bow truster
>> electric stern thruster
>>
>> Life support:
>> 12 x 3454 Liters O2 Cylinders (Luxfer Aluminum Oxygen Cylinders
>> M-110-0760)
>> Providing 41448 Liters of airs.
>> 10362 liters for operational supply.
>> 31086 liters for emergency supply.
>> 112 man days (16 weeks) of O2.
>>
>> Ballast:
>> Forward and Aft external ballast tanks (maybe external side tanks as
>> well)
>> 3 ton internal tank with an electrical pump (can be VBT)
>> 2 ton (1 ton + 2x 0.5ton) internal hard tanks for trim
>> and VBT, can be operated with presision electical pump or high
>> pressure
>> gas
>>
>> I've been testing out different CAD packages, I uploaded a couple of
>> images, so much stuff missing or in the wrong place. Just
>> kicking around some ideas. I'll have some better images ready soon.
>>
>> http://monkeyview.net/id/2768/substuff/csub200/rough/index.vhtml
>>
http://monkeyview.net/id/2768/substuff/csub200/rough/csub200_2d_000.jpg
>> http://monkeyview.net/id/2768/substuff/csub200/rough/subc200_3d.jpg
>>
>> One the main goals I have with this sub is to keep it as flexible
>> and reconfigurable as possible. So I want to be able to do things
>> like detach the luxary yatch sail, and attach the ROV deployment
>> sail to go and investigate a shipwreck from a safe distance or
>> that is outside of my operational depth.
>>
>> The working budget is fairly low for a project of this size.
>> The hull cost $90K usd, I hope to have the sub fitted out for
>> $45K, and hoping to keep an another $45K for extras, like ROVs
>> and plasma TV. We'll see how this works out, whatever happens,
>> I'm sure I can get this thing full operation even if I'm missing
>> the plasma TV.
>>
>> I'm really looking forward to this adventure. Please feel free
>> to share your throughts and ideas about this project.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ian.
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>--
>Best Regards
>Øystein Skarholm
>www.ubat.no
>+47 92 40 53 72
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Best Regards
Øystein Skarholm
www.ubat.no
+47 92 40 53 72
