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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Generators

What causes the most heat is the exhaust leaving the engine. This exhaust will be water cooled. in addition to this, the radiator will be used to cool down the engine apartment. There will be no heat transfer through convection for the exhaust part, but circulating cold sea water. The radiator, however will be convection. The area which the convection happens needs to be as large as possible, maybe through a submerged oil cooler. If this should fail to work then but first then I'll be willing to spend a lot of money on a water cooled engine. But if tit comes to that, I maybe consider a small used diesel boat engine connected to the aggregate. But I hardly think that will be much better.
 
 
 
Peter, are you using closed cells batteries for your project, or how do you deal with the Hydrogen.? hydro caps ?
 
 


 
On 9/27/07, Joseph Perkel <joeperkel@hotmail.com> wrote:

Oystein,

One of my major concerns with the NR-2 concept, was residual heat after engine shutdown. My particular scheme was an electric circulating pump to continue engine cooling water flow through the keel cooler after shutdown. This in addition to marine air for the sub-tropical environment in Florida.

Consider that a water cooled unit uses "conduction" as the main heat transfer system. If one were to attempt "radiation" cooling of an air cooled system in an enclosed PSUB, the result would be what Peter described, ....personnel evacuating the space in short order. The sailboat example would have the advantage of changing ambient air via circulation through vents.

The rate of heat production, transfer / removal for the given elements...(ie) power unit size, internal cubic volume, and heat exchange system, are all fairly easily calculated and predictable, take your time and look at the issue closely.

Joe

From:  "Øystein Skarholm" <skarholm@gmail.com>
Reply-To:   personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To:   personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject:  Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Generators
Date:  Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:27:55 +0200


My plan is to lead the heat away from the generator and the machine room through a water cooled radiator system. I know this was done in a 28foot sailboat. The PANDA generators are great but ***** me for prices.

On 9/27/07, Peter Madsen <peter@submarines.dk > wrote:
Øystein,
 
 
The unit shown is aircooled. Small direct injection aircooled diesels can be quite cheap, but are ill suited for submarine use. This unit will release in the order of 10 kW heat - into the limeted air in the boat. Quite surprising - this would turn a small boat into a baking oven, with much too high tempretures. I tryed a unit like this in Freya during 2002, and it had to get out due to heat problems. Second - the aircooled unit are NOISY beond belief.
 
I like to idea of a midget gennerator - but to use this you have to do a lot of modifications.
 
There is something caled a "wispergen" on the market - its a very silent stirling cycle generator - that is watercooled. Output 0.8 kW,
and there is something caled a pandagenerator - also to be found on the net - that meets these uses. Only problem is cost. They are much more expensive, yet silent and potentially the wispergen could be the basis of a smal AIP unit.
 
Regards,
 
Peter 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 5:20 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Generators

 
Here is a link to one dealer having a diesel aggregate 3,5kW for 4990.-NOK. The one I am thinking of buying is a bit smaller, but this was found in a store and I cant find it on the net at this moment.
 
 
Link:
 
 
 


 
On 9/27/07, Joseph Perkel <joeperkel@hotmail.com
> wrote:



Patrick,

Westerbeke and, Yanmar Marine have very small footprint, marine dedicated units. Take a peek at their websites.

Joe

From:  "Patrick" <pat_man_ta@hotmail.com>
Reply-To:  
personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To:  <personal_submersibles@psubs.org >

Subject:  Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Generators
Date:  Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:36:01 -0400

>Thanks very much Peter!
>
>I would also prefer something that stays in the water
>rather than a smaller craft which is part of why I'm exploring
>the diesel/electric route.

>
>I am working on a core model in Pro-E that I will ideally use
>to generate multiple design solutions and variations to be
>explored and driven by, ultimately, budget and access to
>the water.

>
>A diesel/electric system is something I am familiar with in concept
>but I wanted to know what equipment and arrangements people
>actually used. I am by no means rushing out to buy a generator

>tonight! ;D
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Madsen"
><
peter@submarines.dk>
>To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 3:31 PM

>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Generators
>
>
>>Patrick,
>>
>>
>>Diesel electric submarines are not always "diesel electric" in the
>>sense
>>that they operate d.generators to run electric motors - often
>>you have two independent powertrains - one electric - the other
>>diesel.
>>
>>In a Psub diesel sub - the diesel is used to transit to and from a

>>dive
>>location - mostly surfaced. That is most economic done with
>>something like a
>>ordinary diesel / mechanical gear - clutch box as in any motor
>>yacht. They
>>are available down to 8 - 10 hp fitting nicely with a 3 ton

>>submarine
>>
>>Submerged the diesel is tuned off and the exhaust is closed with a
>>valve.
>>The gear box lever is set to neutral - and a diminutive e motor is
>>then used

>>to propel the boat at much lower speed. Surfaced you might design
>>for 3 hp
>>pr. ton, while submerged you will need about 0.5 to 1 hp pr ton.
>>Its really
>>not very difficult and will improve you boats range ten if not

>>hundredfold.
>>
>>As usual - the bigger the better. A long hull give high speed a
>>short give
>>low surfaced speed. I in any way possible go for a boat the like
>>most ships

>>stays in the water and is transported on water. Its much simpler
>>than
>>trailers and tight weight budgets.
>>
>>These views are of cause my own, and I will defend anybody's right

>>to be
>>disagreeing with me...
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>Peter Madsen
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick"

>><pat_man_ta@hotmail.com>
>>To: <
personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
>>Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:07 PM
>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Diesel Generators
>>
>>
>>>I've been searching around to try and find the smallest of the

>>>small
>>>marine diesel generators but so far the smallest one I've found is
>>>about
>>>130 -210lbs and I'm not even sure they'd be appropriate for use
>>>inside a
>>>psub.
>>>
>>>Does anyone run small scale D/E in their sub? If so, what are you
>>>using?
>>>
>>>~patrick
>>>(creeping out of the shadows)

>>>
>>>Ref.:
>>>
http://www.kohlerpower.com/marine/detail.htm?sectionNumber=13461&categoryNumber=8361&prodnum=71561
>>>
>>>
http://www.centralmainediesel.com/order/4300N.asp?page=4300N
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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--
Best Regards
Øystein Skarholm
www.ubat.no

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--
Best Regards
Øystein Skarholm
www.ubat.no