Randy,
What I think is that our European friends are probably correct...we worry too much! Then again, they don't live here now do they?
"Individual law suits against individuals are very expensive and most law firms require a huge upfront payment"
There was a thread about a year ago regarding potential liability of resale where psubs are concerned. I think you may be right, there is some protection in that statement.
It might just be that in our culture that we are more willing to risk our lives than risk our financial future.....isn't that strange?
Joe
From: "Randy & Linda" <erjlhj@cox.net>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Are we lawyers or hobbyist
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 10:31:26 -0700
Hi Joethanks for the reply. I suspect many psubbers have aviation backgrounds. OK I will move wife phase to number 1, actually I have already started that part as she went to the convention with me. The convention was effectively 2 1/2 days and we were there 8 days playing tourist so you see who had the bulk of the available time. I am familiar with the FAA 51% rule which was in place long before the lawyers turned aircraft manufacturing into their cash cow. I no longer carry a mechanic's insurance so I will not work on other people's aircraft.I have no problem telling an owner what steps he should take to correct a rough running engine. If he does it incorrectly and the problem is not cured and he stills flies anyway. Am I liable? A lawyer may try, but I think it would be a stretch and not worth the effort. In the US you can sue anyone for any reason, but that doesn't make it happen. Individual law suits against individuals are very expensive and most law firms require a huge upfront payment and that makes most people step back and give a second thought to giving their hard earned money to a lawyer who tells them that there is no guarantee they will win and may even be subject to large court cost in the loss. Joe, Vans air craft used to give the kit buyers a chance to come to their facility and get supervision on some of the harder to build components; now that is direct involvement in a situation that is not totally in their control, I myself would not do that. You mentioned rebreathers; I know zip zero about rebreathers except that they are a scuba device. If it is a system that could enhance the operation or safety of a psub I would like to know more, especially if there is a functional home made adaptation of the technology .Sure, if someone sends me drawings and build instruction for a small fee and tells me this is better than anything I could buy pre-made, then if I kill myself with the system there could be a problem for supplier. If someone posted an information article on a commonly used website(that allows for comment) fully explaining the hazards' of such a device, that person would have minimal exposure. It is safer for us to share ideas than it is for each of us start from scratch on every aspect of in building our subs as not all of our solutions will prove to be ideal. Posting mistakes is just as helpful. what do you think Joe?ThanksRandy ----- Original Message -----From: Joseph PerkelSent: Friday, August 24, 2007 6:39 AMSubject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Are we lawyers or hobbyist************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages from our organization. If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the link below or send a blank email message to: removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an automated process and should be complete within five minutes of our server receiving your request. PSUBS.ORG PO Box 53 Weare, NH 03281 603-529-1100 ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************Hi Randy.
Welcome to the list. Good for you that you were able to attend the convention, my turn wont come for some time yet. A few items about your post were of particular interest.
"My background is in aviation, both civil and military" .........me too. CFI, A&P, former Eastern Mechanic, Navy Air Controller, ERAU alumnus. Now,........ ICU RN (a people mechanic)! :)
"8. convince my wife how much fun we are going to have"......move this to number (1)! This is partially why something along the lines of my Alvin Jr. , or smaller, is a more likely candidate than NR-2 would have been. http://www.frappr.com/?a=viewphoto&id=269116&pid=7265857
"We build these things by our hand if we die we die by our hand. If it was any other way the kit built aircraft industry would not have lasted this long"
The answer to this is in the 51% rule and, why the personal aircraft manufacturing industry was devastated by product liability tort in the first place. Vans will sell you a nice RV-3 kit but, not the "recipe" so you that can come up with some horrible hybrid. In almost every fatality regarding homebuilt aircraft, the fault lies with the pilot and manufacturer, ...which happens to be the same guy,.... now how convenient is that?
Change the design however minor or use the wrong bolts and, you are now the designer as well as the factory, again...pretty convenient for the kit industry. The law firms did thier damage to the production industry and left, (what's the pricetag for a new 172?), the flavor of the moment....class action lawsuits. You get $500,.... the firm gets 4 mil.
PSUBS and Aviation
Oh yes, I see the similarities and, the one glaring difference.....lack of regulatory constraint! The state of Florida sees me as a boat...period. God how I love that! A bit of freedom there, what attracted me to the sky in the first place, and the lack of which chased me down again.
Now here is the sticky part. The lack of regulation can bite both ways. The 51% rule is legal precedent set by a regulatory agency, the FAA. No such animal with PSUBs, tourist submersibles do fall under regulatory guidelines of the D.O.T. but, not us.
So I can share with you general ideas about submersible design, that's ok because it's up to you to figure out the details (the re-breather example). But, if I send you dimensions and a material list, I just became your designer and open myself up to a potential problem.
This will never take off like personal aviation did. But I'll be damned if we are not a collection of "Wright Brothers" with a kindrid experimental spirit! Mr. Fed-man.......please stay away!!
Joe
>From: "Randy & Linda" >Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org >To: >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Are we lawyers or hobbyist >Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 23:24:22 -0700 > >I would like to give a very special thanks to the sub owners that brought their subs to the convention. Seeing what has been done was my main interest in attending the convention. And I congratulate each one of you for getting it done in your own way. My background is in aviation, both civil and military, being licensed as both as a pilot and a mechanic and I was a member of the Experimental Aircraft Association for 20 years. The EAA publishes a monthly magazine that contains articles for the most part written by other amateur members .I have seen articles on how to build your own autopilot, how to overhaul a Volkswagen engine for airplane use and many other technical articles on critical equipment. These authors are not doctorates in their field; they are just enthusiasts willing to share unique information with other hobbyist to enhance the enjoyment and or safety of the sport. I am sure there are many of you that have that kind of special knowledge that could be posted on the psub web page for the benefit of us all. I am considering building a sub, but many things enter into that happing. 1. dedicate an adequate work space 2.learn basic CAD skills 3.refresh welding skills 4.educate myself on ABS standards 5. purchase more welding equipment.6. find a machine shop willing to work with customer drawings. 7 find a couple dozen suppliers that will sell 1 or 2 each items to a retail customer. 7. in my spare time read Dr Stachiw's book and learn how to test acrylic view ports. 8. convince my wife how much fun we are going to have working 10-12 hours a day on a large steel tub. 9++++ I'm sure I will find out about the time I start my first assembly. > What I'm saying in comparing psubs to the EAA is that the EAA builder must do every thing that I just listed above, but he has the additional help of fellow builders or knowledgeable individuals who are willing to share. I don't follow the logic that I must design electronic circuitry for a home built system just because misuse can kill me.In building an airplane If I misuse a cable swaging tool or fail to test a control cable I guarantee you that I will die of something other than old age,but I still don't think I have to build the swaging tool. put the design on a public form, explain what the circuitry accomplishes, how to test it, tell us the" what ifs" and leave it up to us to use or not . We build these things by our hand if we die we die by our hand. If it was any other way the kit built aircraft industry would not have lasted this long. What I need living in southern Arizona is sources of supply, examples of how things were done that worked. I have reviewed the K350 drawings and I suspect that many of the vender supplied parts are no longer available. What are the work arounds. On the psub web page there is a design page that has gone nowhere. Come on tell us new guys of a solution that you are proud of. > >Randy