[PSUBS-MAILIST] Single Piece Hatch Design

[Brent Hartwig <brenthartwig@hotmail.com>]

Hello Carsten,
 
I think that's really nice, the way you designed your hatch's out of one piece of steel. I totally missed that part of the Euronauts design, since I only have one of your pictures showing a small part of the O-ring on your conning tower hatch with you standing next to the conning tower. Do you have any better pictures of the O-ring and it's groove on your hatches, I could check out? Did you have them pressed of spun? What thickness and type of steel did you use, and did you heat treat anneal them after forming?  
 
I've been looking at allot of hatches as of late, and have been trying to decide on whether to go with as light of a hatch as I can, so I don't need springs to help lift it, like on allot of Paul Moorhouses subs, as well as Karl Stanley's Idabel, or go heavier.

Regards,
Brent Hartwig
 
P.S.  Since  Peter, Carsten, Emile, and myself couldn't go to the convention , perhaps we can obtain a robust supply of good beer and hang out in the Euronauts diver lock out chamber with it being half full of hot water with some pumps to make it like a hot tub , and laugh at those poor SMMO's in Michigan trying to make room in there brains for more sub data today. ; )'

> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Double O-Ring On A Hatch
> From: MerlinSub@t-online.de
> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 16:44:00 +0000
> 
> Hi Peter, 
> 
> I think it depents which machine your friend has,
> a good welding machine or a good lathe.. 
> 
> Most submads have a welding machine but no lathe, so that way with 
> a welded O Ring grove is a cheap way. 
> 
> Peppers first Hatch was build yery similar to your description, 
> means without a lathe, by the way complete useless on oval shape hatches. 
> 
> Euronauts o-ring grove was made much, much simpler.. I just order the hatch endcap
> in double tickness than nessesary and inluding a o-ring grove... 
> This means the hole Hatch is a single peace and I have not to think 
> about weld disorientation. Euronaut has three hatches made this way 
> - saves a lot of lathe or welding hours. 
> 
> regards Carsten - fix 33 of the 66 Hagen-Battery rack position up today, 
> tomorrow maybe another douzend.
> 
> 
> "Peter Madsen" <peter@submarines.dk> schrieb:
> > Sirs,
> > 
> > Carsten is also completely overshot...but if you do like he says it will 
> > definetly work to very big pressures. Kraka´s hatch is tight, and I mean 
> > TIGHT - no droplets - nothing. Its two parts are not machined - the o-ring 
> > groove is made by welding two square profiles on a raw flame cut ring. We 
> > use 6 by 6 mm profiles and a diam 10 mm oring with a glued connection. No 
> > problems ever.
> > The design is made so that water pressure further increses tightness.
> > 
> > Doubble orings are worse than single since the pressure that closes the 
> > o-ring is shared betvin two
> > orings.
> > 
> > The system with two orings was used on pre STS 51 shuttle SRB´s - for leak 
> > detection. And look what happened...
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Peter
> > 
> > N.B. Same system used on Freya with same result. Total number of tests to 
> > this day 1027.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: <MerlinSub@t-online.de>
> > To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> > Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 2:00 PM
> > Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Double O-Ring On A Hatch
> > 
> > 
> > > Brent this is complete overshoot.
> > >
> > > If the single o-ring fails - little water leak in - thats all.
> > >
> > > The both metall surfaces should be during manufacturing such flat that you 
> > > see no outsiede light from inside the submarine - with you inside in the 
> > > dark submarine - and without a o-ring.
> > >
> > > I have double O-rings only in the drop weight key holder
> > > - a shaft in Pipe system to hold the shaft allways in center.
> > >
> > > best regards Carsten
> > >
> > > "Brent Hartwig" <brenthartwig@hotmail.com> schrieb:
> > >>
> > >> Hello Ian,
> > >>
> > >> A leak detector between the seals is an interesting thought. Perhaps just 
> > >> a pressure gage of some sort could be used.
> > >>
> > >> In regards to to a evenly seated, bottomed out hatch flanges, sealing 
> > >> water from getting inside, I would think it would be highly unlikely. 
> > >> Since even a small imperfection in a mirror smooth finish, warpage of one 
> > >> or both of the flanges, or a piece of sand between the flange surfaces 
> > >> would let water in the pressure hull.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >> Brent Hartwig> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 18:18:46 -0400> From: 
> > >> irox@ix.netcom.com> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org> Subject: RE: 
> > >> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Double O-Ring On A Hatch> > > If both O-rings are the 
> > >> same, whatever causes the failure on the> outer ring could also cause the 
> > >> failure on the inner ring (and you> have two O-rings to replace instead 
> > >> of one). If the inner ring> was stronger/bigger than the outer, then 
> > >> maybe, but what would be> the point - unless you had a leak detector 
> > >> fitter between the two> to let you know when the outer ring failed?> > 
> > >> The O-ring only keeps the water out when you are near the surface.> Once 
> > >> the sub is at a certain depth, the water pressure will keep> the metal on 
> > >> metal (metal on plastic on metal if you use a gasket)> surfaces well 
> > >> sealed.> > If things are failing before their scheduled replace period, 
> > >> it's> probably a good idea to inspect/over-haul the sub before using it> 
> > >> again (rather than having a system that allows you to continue> to opera!
> > > te the sub when components are knowingly or unknowningly> failing).> > 
> > > Ian.> > -----Original Message-----> >From: Brent Hartwig 
> > > <brenthartwig@hotmail.com>> >Sent: Aug 8, 2007 1:37 PM> >To: 
> > > personal_submersibles@psubs.org> >Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Double 
> > > O-Ring On A Hatch> >> >> > > >I have no doubte that single O-Rings are 
> > > successful in sub hatches, as well as numerous other applications. One 
> > > item I was thinking about, was that if you have two O-Rings in your hatch 
> > > flange, of the same thickness as the same hatch with a single O-Ring, 
> > > wouldn't you have twice the resistance in the double O-Ring hatch in 
> > > keeping the mating flanges from touching (bottoming out). Also some custom 
> > > O-Rings are spliced together, and if that outer O-Ring splice fails, you 
> > > would have a back-up O-Ring to protect you. If your hatches are machined 
> > > correctly, and the outer O-Ring fails by extrusion or cracking from very 
> > > cold or hot tempertures, old age and/or manufactures inconsistency in 
> > > material o!
> > > r process, then the second O-Ring might work perfectly. Many s!
> > > ubs are
> > > left out in the hot sun, which can get the steel hulls very hot. This can 
> > > be hard on plastic and rubber products.> > > >I've seen a number of double 
> > > O-Ring designs used in aquarium pump connections and covers. Perhaps this 
> > > is better for stopping leaks in lower pressure system, like is used in 
> > > most aquaria.> > > >Does anyone here have a story of a hatch O-Ring 
> > > failing?> >> >Regards,> >Brent Hartwig> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 
> > > 09:09:02 -0700> From: clientes@tolimared.com> To: 
> > > personal_submersibles@psubs.org> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Double 
> > > O-Ring On A Hatch> > Hello Oystein,> > Very good link - thanks,> > I see 
> > > your point what concerns difference to normal hatches - in fact > i am 
> > > considering the model of the scuba gear seal as a model for a > deep 
> > > diver - hatch i have in mind - could go to ocean bottom - based > on 
> > > concrete spheres...> > In any case the point seems to be that the mecanism 
> > > that makes a > o-ring fail is extrusion trough a gap. As long as you avoid 
> > > this > properl!
> > > y a o-ring will hold hundereds of bar = thousands of meter of > 
> > > waterdepth...> > If you have several rings and a big gap due to deficient 
> > > machining - > ALL of them will fail at the same depth.> > In hydraulics 
> > > that normally work at that kind of pressure you have all > kind of single 
> > > o-rings...> > > Cheers, Wil> > > Quoting Øystein Skarholm 
> > > <skarholm@gmail.com>:> > > In scubagear the!> seat for connenction between 
> > > tank and the 1st stage is> > spesial in that manner that the oring is in a 
> > > deep groove and the 1st stage> > seat goes into this groove, unlike one on 
> > > a hatch. Having said that there> > are plenty off hi pressure applications 
> > > seald off using single o-ring.> >> > 
> > > http://o-ring.info/en/technical%20manual/ERIKS%20-%20Technical%20Manual%20-%20O-Ring%20Sealing%20Principles.pdf> 
> > > >> >> >> >> > On 8/8/07, clientes@tolimared.com <clientes@tolimared.com> 
> > > wrote:> >>> >> In a scuba gear the first stage - is attached to the tank 
> > > with a> >> single O- ring this single o-ring takes!
> > > some 200bar in this> >> configuration - or i am wrong on this!
> > > ? - So i
> > > also see no need of> >> double ring in any application in a submarine.> >> 
> > > Cheers, Wil> >>> >> Quoting MerlinSub@t-online.de:> >>> >> > No idear why 
> > > they make that.. one is just fine with lower> >> > cost for rings, trench 
> > > and paint maintance issue.> >> >> >> > I just pressuries my diverchamber 
> > > with a> >> > singel !> o-ring to 32 atmosp..> >> >> >> > Think better one 
> > > with bigger!> diamete> r than two smalls.> >> >> >> > best regards 
> > > Carsten> >> >> >> > "Brent Hartwig" <brenthartwig@hotmail.com> schrieb:> 
> > > >> >>> >> >>> >> >> I finally found a double o-ring on a sub hatch. The 
> > > sub on ebay> >> >> right now called the Great Lake's Submarine mentioned 
> > > earlier, has> >> >> one. Here is the picture.> >> >>> >> >> 
> > > http://www.frappr.com/?a=viewphoto&id=4001713&pid=7375620> >> >>> >> >>> 
> > > >> >> Regards,> >> >> Brent Hartwig> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > 
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