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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Re: Mig welding a sub

To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Re: Mig welding a sub
From: irox <irox@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 17:25:27 -0400 (EDT)
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Reply-to: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Sender: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Ah, I think understand what you are talking about.  Your talking
about not needing the same inspection/process for creating 200feet
operational depth sub vs creating a 1000feet operational depth sub?
Apologies if I'm not reading your emails correctly.

If you take into account safety factors, then the two hulls
can come out similar.  Also, if you are skimping on inspection, then
over engineering isn't a bad idea (i.e. using a material thicker
compared to the relative operation depth than a full inspected
sub would use compared to it's operation depth).

For safety factors, I'm think of the time for action after you
cross your operational depth (due to some sort of problem).  With
a 25% safety factor in 1000foot operation depth sub, you have the
time taken to travel 250feet to react to the problem.  But in a
200foot operation depth sub, 25% only gives you 50feet to react,
if you want to same amount of time to react, you need a 150% safety
factor.  So combine the safety factor with some over engineering
since you are not full inspecting/x-raying the welds, and you end
up with similar pressure hulls.

At least this would be my (current) thinking/approach.

Cheers,
  Ian.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Lil Brother LLC <lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
>Sent: Jul 25, 2007 4:22 PM
>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Re: Mig welding a sub
>
>Ian,
>
>There wouldn't be a difference, if you are brave enough to use a thin 
>material to go to 1000 ft. It would be a waste to use a 1000 ft. material 
>(thickness wise) to only go to 200 ft.
>
>The equipment necessary to weld (properly) a hull 1/2 inch thick can easily 
>weld a hull 3/16 think, but the opposite is not true.
>
>I'm not just discussing the seam, but the equipment, diligence, and 
>inspection required for the seam to be proper. It is more difficult to weld 
>a 1/2 piece of material proper than a 3/16 piece.
>
>James Long
>Owner/Designer
>Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division)
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "irox" <irox@ix.netcom.com>
>To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 2:51 PM
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Re: Mig welding a sub
>
>
>
>Then, what is the difference between a seam welded for a
>200feet dive depth and 1000feet dive depth for the same
>thickness material?
>
>I don't think there is a difference.
>
>Ian.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Lil Brother LLC <lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
>>Sent: Jul 25, 2007 3:16 PM
>>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Re: Mig welding a sub
>>
>>Ian,
>>
>>As I understand it...the material thickness plays a major part of the
>>welding process. The thickness makes a major difference.
>>
>>James Long
>>Owner/Designer
>>Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division)
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "irox" <irox@ix.netcom.com>
>>To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
>>Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 2:05 PM
>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Re: Mig welding a sub
>>
>>
>>
>>What's the difference between the seams?  From what I've read there
>>would be no difference other than the matterial/thicknesses being
>>connected.
>>
>>Ian.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Lil Brother LLC <lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
>>>Sent: Jul 25, 2007 2:21 PM
>>>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Re: Mig welding a sub
>>>
>>>Dan,
>>>
>>>I somehow missed this message.....
>>>
>>>I have a question........Wouldn't submerged series arc be the best method
>>>to seal a pressure vessel? It's totally one bead, has similar penetration
>>>to stick, and is easily controlled.
>>>
>>>Although I'm not sure who would have a rig that could weld a round vessel,
>>>I'm sure it could be done.
>>>
>>>I agree a backhoe bucket weld wouldn't do the trick, but also on the other
>>>hand the seam to seal a vessel designed to go 1000 feet, is not the same
>>>seam as a vessel only designed to go to 200. The variables are totally
>>>different.
>>>
>>>James Long
>>>Owner/Designer
>>>Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division)
>>>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>  From: james kocourek
>>>  To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>>>  Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 5:51 AM
>>>  Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Re: Mig welding a sub
>>>
>>>
>>>  Hi Dan,
>>>  I appreciate your input. I have done failure testing prior to welding on
>>> my sub with exceptional success. I think that some of the time flux core
>>> gets a bad rap because of the fact that the little buzz boxes use flux
>>> core. Mine is a 350 amp mig computer controlled pulse welder as speced by
>>> both lincoln tech specialists and my coach, an extremely experienced and
>>> active pressure vessel welder.
>>>
>>>  I concure that one cannot be too cautious.
>>>
>>>  I am interested in talking with you more at the convention about this
>>> subject and appreciate your feedback.
>>>
>>>  Rest assured that I did considerable homework prior to choosing the
>>> method that I am using now.
>>>
>>>  Thanks again & Best Regards,
>>>
>>>  Jim Kocourek
>>>    ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>    From: Daniel Lance
>>>    To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>>>    Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 7:50 PM
>>>    Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Re: Mig welding a sub
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    James
>>>    I believe it would be in your best interest to strive for  the highest
>>> possible weld integrity for the pressure hull of your submarine. A weld
>>> procedure that is acceptable for a backhoe bucket isn't necessarily
>>> adequate for Pressure Vessel Quality work.  Typical Quality Control
>>> standards for PVQ require full penetration X-ray quality welds to acheive
>>> 100 % of the strength required for such a demanding applicaton. While
>>> there are many welding processes available to the average person, ( mig,
>>> tig, stick). Some are better suited than others in a given situation
>>> depending on a particular individuals skill and experience level.  As an
>>> example , I have seen "side bend" Mig weld tests performed by highly
>>> skilled  welders with ten's of thousands of hours of welding experience
>>> split apart in the weld bead zone. Mig has a tendency to exhibit very
>>> shallow penetration in certain circumstances. The trick is to know WHA! T
>>> circumstances. If you are going to perform your own welding I!
>>  would recommend that you do what industry does. Take a weldor
>>qualification test in the weld process and welding procedure you intend to
>>implement in your build project. Get a copy of  "The Procedure Handbook of
>>Arc Welding" by the Lincoln Electric Co. of Cleveland Ohio. This an
>>excellent reference book with a chapter devoted to weldor qualification
>>tests. If you have a hydraulic press in your shop you can perform your own
>>tests.  If you plan to hire someone to do the welding for you insist that
>>they pass an approved  test administered by a qualified laboratory. Rework
>>is expensive , do it right the first time. And of course,......what is your
>>life worth?....... someone who says they can do it or someone who can prove
>>that they can do it.
>>>    Happy sub building,
>>>
>>>    Daniel Lance
>>>    lanceind@earthlink.net
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>************************************************************************
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