I do hope Dan Lance has seen this thread and can put in a
comment. In the interim, what I can say is that I had a conversation with him
recently on just this topic. Dan is a professional welder with decades of
experience, a welding instructor, and someone who has successfully
completed his own submarine. I know he believes very strongly
that MIG is innapropriate for full penetration applications. It is an excellent
method for things like stiffeners, because it's fast, easy, and even
produces nice finish. But for pressure boundary welds, you absolutely MUST
have full penetration and no question about porosity.
Hopefully he'll see this and give a more detailed
response.
thanks,
Alec
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.
Brent,
Ok, I think that answers my question.
I'll probably go with a MIG with gas and flux core
wire. It sounds like the best method, even though it can be porous.
I already have a multi-setting auto darkening
helmet. I don't weld without it, make life soooo much easier.
James Long
Owner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 3:21
AM
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MIG Welding a
Sub
James,
I'm not a welding expert, I suggest you
talk with Frank D. about welding and/or check out some of the forums great
posting on welding. What I would say from what I've gathered from my relitive
that fabricates back-hoe buckets for a living is, that if you use a flux cored
MIG wire allong with a shielding gas(s) and clean the welding area really
well, you should be able to weld most, if not all your sub this
way.
Some like to use TIG welds for there
root welds on through hulls, because it tends to get well sealed welds,
with very little if any porosity. That is why allot of gas tanks are welded
with TIG.
I have a local friend that fabricates
and welds stainless steel tanks of a high quality. I'm planning on
having him fabricate out of 316 stainless steel my VBT's, gas tanks, fresh
water tanks, diesel tanks, etc. for my subs.
http://www.solartanks.com/category_2.htm
The thru hull welds on his tanks used to
be done with TIG, since they looked so nice and sealed great. But that
took to long compared to MIG, and they can get the MIG welds totally
sealed. So now they mostly just use MIG. The heads he uses are pressed
and then welded on with a special automated MIG machine. Last week I finished
some CAD drawings for him to get the shapes of the hole cutouts for tubes that
are welding off to one side of the tanks. I have the sheet metal program
in Solidworks that allows me to build a sheet metal type part in 3D and then
lay it flat to take drawings off of it. I also had to design a couple of
stainless steel template jigs to mark the small pipes as well as the tanks
them selves, where they need to be cut. The jigs would likely be CNC
laser, or aqua jet cut out of 1/8" stainless steel plate and then
rolled.
If your going to use TIG, just remember
that it puts allot more heat to the parts being welded, and it takes a lot
longer then MIG. So if you are worried about warping your parts with the heat
from the TIG, you might want to use just MIG and/or carefully stitch weld the
parts with MIG or TIG or just duck tape it together. Duck tape won't add
any heat to your parts so you won't get any warping. Also if your going to
switch between MIG, TIG, Stick, and a cutting torch, your going to want a
great auto darkening helmet that has three of more darkness settings like the
higher end GE Speedglass helmets. They tend to run about
$325.
For very thick parts, (of which most of
use are not needing on are subs) I've been told high amperage stick
machine is the way to go.
If I have any holes in my logic above I
hope the group enlightens us.
Best Regards,
Brent
Hartwig
From: "Lil Brother LLC"
<lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To:
personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To:
<personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: Re:
[PSUBS-MAILIST] Stepped sail design .....opinions?
Date: Tue, 24
Jul 2007 00:01:59 -0500
Brent,
So, they have been made in multiple ways. I
figure spinning would be the cheapest. There is less labor involved with a
spun piece of metal, although you still need the mold (form).
I've been thinking about what processes would
be needed to build and complete a sub. I can get just about anything
made.(Since I don't have any machinery). I would outsource it all.
I can weld......which brings up another
question. Is there any specifications on wire or stick welding? I would
prefer wire......easier logistically.....and I hate stick
welding.....
James Long
Owner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (Instrument
Division)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 11:50
PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stepped
sail design .....opinions?
James,
From what I understand the spun heads are
the best, since they have a even thickness. The pressed heads can be
great to, but will need to be made out of a little thicker metal to get
the same strength as the spun heads, since they are thinner in the middle
from the metal being stretched. It' wouldn't be practical for most
aplications to machine the heads. Some heads are casted, but are allot
more brittle then the other types.
Since the spun and pressed heads are
usually made from annealed steal so there easier to form, you could have
them annealed again to take out allot of the stresses put into them from
the forming process. Then if you wish, they can be tempered to make
them even harder. But I would design the heads to be used in an annealed
state, so they can take a collision with a boat, rocks, etc. which would
just likely dent them instead of cracking them, like if they were tempered
to much.
From: "Lil Brother LLC"
<lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To:
personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To:
<personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: Re:
[PSUBS-MAILIST] Stepped sail design .....opinions?
Date: Mon,
23 Jul 2007 22:51:08 -0500
Brent,
I can just about draw anything in
Inventor...... Now assembling those pieces can get tricky...like
aligning the bubble on top of that partially rounded topped
tube.....that sucked...I had to think about it some. The Dome wouldn't
be symmetrical, so it would have to go on one way (this is because it is
a slice of a dome....not a true hemi-sphere)
I've been working on my sub design.......I
may take you up on the files....but let me get it a little further
done. I started with structure rings on the outside of the crew
hull.....I'm going to move the rings to the inside for better strength
and easier ballast tank construction. It will require a floor plate to
be made for the crew cabin, but that just means less weight to add
later.
I do have a question........do you know,
how are the end metal domes for the crew compartment made? Are they
spun? Pressed? Machined? I'm sort of wondering, because metal that shape
can be a major pain in the ass to find.
James Long
Owner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (Instrument
Division)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 9:19
PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]
Stepped sail design .....opinions?
Hi James,
I'm self taught as well, and have found
a few tricks. I've also found that having short video tutorials
from a couple of different sources helps tremendously. I have archived
loads of short video tutorials, that if you wanted, I could burn them
onto a DVD and send them to you. I just take it one tool at a
time.
I would share my Solidworks files with
you as well as just about anyone else. I've found Solidworks to be a
very robust CAD program that I haven't hardly scratched the surface
with yet in regards to what it can do. That doesn't mean it's that
hard to use, just deep. If you get stuck just email or better yet call
me.
Brent
From: "Lil Brother LLC"
<lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To:
personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To:
<personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: Re:
[PSUBS-MAILIST] Stepped sail design .....opinions?
Date:
Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:00:27 -0500
Brent,
I already posted on the iges and step
files......would have to see how they turned out after
conversion.
I stared with Inventor many years ago,
and haven't spent anytime converting to Solid Works. I really like
Inventor...but it is a pain to do some things. Plus I'm self
taught.....so I really don't want to learn something new. Solid
Works is partially like Inventor....but some of the procedures are
so different, I could just about draw the part before I could figure
out how to start with SW.
I have a friend in Russia who (I think)
has human models.....I'll check. I know he uses Solid
Works.
I could be persuaded to use Solid Works
if people are going to share.
James Long
Owner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (Instrument
Division)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007
2:55 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]
Stepped sail design .....opinions?
James,
Ugly as a dogs butt perhaps,
but my dog Harley likes it. ; )' That hull was just for fun.
You win some and loose the rest. In regards to a human
model, I need to do the same thing. Carsten some time back, posted
some human profiles on the Moki picture exchange I was planning to
use as a base to model mine in Solidworks. Obviously Joe has a
human model, but so far we have not figured out how to exchange
IGES or STEP files that work. Perhaps we should try again
Joe. Will your CAD program Inventor except IGES or STEP
files. STL files should also work, but they don't give you
as smooth of models as IGES or STEP files. I think you said you
have Solidworks, so why would you want to use Inventor? I'll be
interesting in seeing your model of the swing able half
ladder.
Regards,
Brent
From: "Lil Brother LLC"
<lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To:
personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To:
<personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject:
Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stepped sail design
.....opinions?
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:24:45
-0500
Brent,
Yep...that is the basic idea....but
I hate the lines of your sub. It's about as ugly as a dogs butt.
(Sorry.....couldn't resist) I'm a more formal lines type of
person. Not to say new shapes and ideas are not viable or
possible, I just like the way the tubular shape of a sub
looks.
I've been working on the design
some, but haven't had a chance to put anything on the web
(mainly because I'm not finished yet).
I know what I could really use....a
model of a person for inventor. I need the representation
(movable) to make sure the sub scales out to the right
size.
With the Stepped sail design.....it
is important to know the average shoulder width.......so the
person in the top dome can actually move.
I did decide the pilot (captain,
driver, etc.) will be located in the lower dome......it would be
far to hard to position instrument and controls in the top
dome.
Also I'm working on a boarding idea
for the upper dome......like a swingable half ladder. when
pressure is put on it.....it locks in position, then the ladder
has spring indents for other positions when no pressure is on
it.
I'm actually trying to incorporate
all the necessary piping and bulkheads ( and such) as I go. I do
not have an extensive library......so some of the items will be
just blocks.
James Long
Owner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (Instrument
Division)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 23,
2007 3:06 AM
Subject: RE:
[PSUBS-MAILIST] Stepped sail design .....opinions?
Greetings
James,
It can and has been done. I
would add some thickness to the flange at the angle joint.
Here is the model I just finished of a stepped sail basicly
like the one you showed use. I was just going to build the
sail 3D model, but I got carried away.
http://www.frappr.com/?a=viewphoto&id=2628470&pid=7095469
Regards,
Brent
Hartwig
"Consistency is the refuge of the unimaginative.
"
- - Oscar Wilde
From: "Lil Brother LLC"
<lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST]
Stepped sail design
.....opinions?
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007
17:15:44 -0500
>So Joe Perkel and I have been
having a thorough discussion.....which I've
>enjoyed
the exchange.
>
>I have some questions about the
image that is attached. (Sorry....hated to
>kill the
bandwidth, but didn't know how to le the image be
accessible.)
>
>Does the image have a chance to
be successful?
>
>Will the angled mounting of
the dome hatches cause any structural weakness
>(other
than the acrylic dome itself)?
>
>I know anyone
who answers is doing so with the best intentions. I know
that
>only real life testing is the only way to know
for sure.
>
>My design is only for a depth of
250 ft max.
>
>Also understand.....the drawing
is a preliminary......just drawn up to
>discuss the
possible flaws of the idea.
>
>James
Long
>Owner/Designer
>Lil Brother LLC
(Instrument Division)
><< SteppedSailDesign.jpg >>
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