Hello Joseph, ; )'
When I saw your picture of your X thruster arrangement, I had the same thoughts as James, in that you wouldn't want to take water from the same side your trying to expel that water to. This would likely totally negate the purpose. Unless your just wanting to aerate the water for the fishes.
How ever your concept got me thinking, and I may have come up with a reasonably good arrangement.
http://www.frappr.com/?a=viewphoto&id=2628470&pid=7092043
I used a larger feed tube and reversed the tubes feed side. The blue shut off cover sleeves would of course need guides, and perhaps could be made out of and/or guided by black UHMW plastic, or the like.
The blue cover sleeves can be actuated by hydraulics, perhaps electric trim tap type actuators, or a spring and pulley arrangement pulled by a hydraulic or electric winch motor. I can see a number of different placement possibilities for the actuators. Even a rack and pinion set up, might work well. Or just treat them like a old 4x4 truck, and get out and manually lock the hubs.
Regards,
Brent
From: "Lil Brother LLC" <lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on construction (I'm new so myresearch is not
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 17:44:55 -0500
Joe,Also.....from my perspective.....I would pull the water from the same side as the top of the thruster tunnel. I know the effect would be small....but I wouldn't want the suction to be on the same side as the thrust. If the thruster tube water level starts to drop significantly......the suction from your "bleeder" will offset some of your thrust. (I'm only speculating on this point.....)James Long
Owner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division)----- Original Message -----From: Jay K. JeffriesSent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 5:24 PMSubject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on construction (I'm new so myresearch is notJoe,
Glad to see that you have come back to this issue, thought you had missed the point. It is my feeling (don?t have anything off the top of my head to substantiate it) that your alternate flow route is a bad idea. For the size of your sub, the separation of your rear twin thrusters should get you some turning motion when they are run in alternate directions. Also remember to get left- and right-turning props so that torque issues are nullified.
R/J2
Respectfully,
Jay K. Jeffries
Andros Is., Bahamas
A skimmer afloat is but a submarine, so poorly built it will not plunge.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Perkel
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 11:33 PM
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on construction (I'm new so my research is not
Jay,
I had not thought of that either, that is yet...another nugget in the pan!
:)
Now that the subject of the X configuration has been brought up, I have been
bothered about the solution to an issue you once mentioned regarding
surfaced use of a bow thruster in this X, when the opening is above the
waterline.
I've got enough thrusters already, so I really don't want a dedicated
surface lateral but, I sure do need the capability, particularly in tight
marinas, NR-2 will not answer rudder below 2 kts, and I am not too sure yet
about what kind of twisting moment I can expect from the mains in opposition
as they are spaced fairly close.
So I'd like to "float" an idea which may or may not be viable regarding
"feed water" to the thrusters while on the surface.......
http://www.frappr.com/?a=viewphoto&id=269116&pid=7075983&myphotos=1
In any case, there is a problem with surfaced maneuvering, that needs to be
resolved somehow.
Joe
>From: "Jay K. Jeffries" <bottomgun@mindspring.com>
>Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
>Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on construction (I'm new so my
>research is not that thorough)
>Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 19:37:58 -0400
>
>Joe,
>
>A further reason for this configuration is that a vertical thruster will
>either suck in mud or stir up the bottom directly in your vision path.
>
>R/Jay
>
>
>
>Respectfully,
>
>Jay K. Jeffries
>
>Andros Is., Bahamas
>
>
>
>A skimmer afloat is but a submarine, so poorly built it will not plunge.
>
>
>
>From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Perkel
>Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 7:12 PM
>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on construction (I'm new so my
>research is not that thorough)
>
>
>
>James,
>
>The software is Rhinomarine, (rhino3d.com).
>
>No propane tank,....same as K boats, rolled ASTM 516 steel.
>
>Length is 27' overall, pressure hull diameter 42", weight 11,500 lbs, give
>or take...Accurate weight and balance table yet to be done, I will do this
>after I hash out the final concept. The general specifications of PC-5C, is
>the model. http://busby.psubs.org/html/page-176.html
>
>".....With the current thruster angles....the controls should be
>microcontroller based......"
>
>Ah, yes...the thrusters! :) , and I just learned something from you...more
>on that in a moment. Why the 45 degree orientation you ask?.....several
>(not
>yet chiseled in granite), reasons.
>
>1- I need that orientation up forward, if I hope to have any kind of
>forward
>view-port. As it is, the design requires significant camera coverage.
>
>2- This orientation with proper controllers as you note, can and has been
>successfully used in opposition and, in concert for spectacular
>maneuverability, up / down, left / right. Also, this boat will be heavy so,
>the thrusters in opposition to spin her about the vertical axis in her own
>Length, with a snappy response......can only be a plus.
>
>3- The last reason, is mimicking the NR-1 in as many ways possible.
>
>"......This is provided the shaft drag (seals) on each motor are relatively
>close......."
>
>Now this is the little nugget I just got from you. Minute differences in
>shaft seal drag and, how that might effect these little guys controller
>wise, did not occur to me. It just so happens, that with my newly planned
>home machine shop, that I recently decided the four maneuvering thrusters
>would be using magnetic couplers. The two main motors aft, are likely to
>remain shafts. All of these, thrusters and the main motors, will be built
>before the sub is.
>
>I had decided that six rotating shafts, is asking too much from the odds
>maker. But now that you mentioned that, I suspect the magnetic couplers
>should be in a better position to be clones of one another.
>
>Thanks James, may I suggest that you post links for appropriate suppliers
>regarding motor controller electronics on the PSUB web site.
>
>Joe
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
>
>From: "Lil Brother LLC" <lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
>Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on construction (I'm new so my
>research is not that thorough)
>Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 14:52:30 -0500
>
>Joe,
>
>
>
>Wow....those are great design elements......something like I was
>thinking....but with a double stepped sail.
>
>
>
>Could I ask what software you used to do the drawings........
>
>
>
>Thanks for the websites....I know there is much reading to be done. That is
>the reason I put in the header my research was not thorough.
>
>
>
>I noticed your design seems to revolve around a propane tank. I think that
>is a great idea....
>
>
>
>How large will the finished design be?
>
>
>
>I will help in any way that I can. The problem with
>electronics......sometimes it takes more than one try to get what you are
>looking for. The first try may work....but it hardly ever works exactly
>like
>you want.(My experience)
>
>
>
>I do have a concern about you design. (Please remember I'm not versed with
>much submarine knowledge) I'm worried about your thruster angles. To use
>the
>thrusters efficiently they would have to be pretty well matched to do a
>coordinated hover turn. (jump from sea floor spin 180 degree and set back
>down) I don't think it is a danger, just could be very frustrating. Can I
>ask why you didn't orient them vertically and horizontally? Or why they are
>not at more of a vertical angle?
>
>
>
>With the current thruster angles....the controls should be microcontroller
>based. It would be able to balance the thrust between the 4 much faster and
>more even than you could manually.This is provided the shaft drag (seals)
>on
>each motor are relatively close.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>James Long
>Owner/Designer
>Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division)
>
>----- Original Message -----
>
>From: Joseph Perkel <mailto:joeperkel@hotmail.com>
>
>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>
>Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:03 AM
>
>Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on construction (I'm new so my
>research is not that thorough)
>
>
>
>James,
>
>".... I know totally encapsulating( mostly.....the top hatch could never be
>totally surrounded) the crew compartment within a ballast area...."
>
>This is one of several viable design considerations for soft tanks as
>specified by the text "Concepts in Submarine Design", (highly recommended).
>It also happens to be my choice for my own
>design...http://www.frappr.com/?a=viewphoto&id=269116&pid=7063561
>
>My suggestion for someone new, is to read...read...read and then...read
>again. Did I mention read! :)
>
>Besides the online Busby manual on the PSUBS web site, I highly recommend
>and have found a gold mine of information in the NAVPERS fleet boat
>manuals...http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/index..htm
>
>As you are an electronics expert, perhaps I may ask you a thing or two
>regarding systems integration when the time comes...not quite yet as I am
>far from it at this point.
>
>Joe
>
>
> _____
>
>
>From: "Lil Brother LLC" <lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
>Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Some thoughts on construction (I'm new so my
>research is not that thorough)
>Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 17:05:24 -0500
> >First I would like to thank everyone for a warm welcome. It is nice
> >to see a group of people that openly accepts the new guy to the
> >group.
> >
> >I have a question or two that can be broken up into various
> >departments:
> >
> >1. If the ballast tanks were to totally surround the crew
> >compartment, could the ballast area be used structurally?
> >
> > I mean if the air were purged, then the ballast area totally
> >sealed (with valves). Would this enhance the structure to help with
> >the pressure at depth?
> >
> > I figure since this area would be totally filled with water
> >(which doesn't compress easily) it would add pressure resistance of
> >the hull. (I'm only guessing at this......so anyone could point out
> >the error in my view)
> >
> > I know totally encapsulating( mostly.....the top hatch could
> >never be totally surrounded) the crew compartment within a ballast
> >area would be a major pain, and would be hard to up keep over a long
> > period of time, but it may be worth the while if the design is
> >possible.
> >
> >2. I've noticed a very strange item on the X300( nice fiberglass
> >single place, dolphin shaped sub) aft end. I'm very curious what the
> >item is. I would also like to know what type of propulsion the sub
> >uses.
> >
> >3. Are there any electronic valves out there that are pressure rated
> >for our uses. I would like some companies to checkout to see if I
> >can use them for ballast control.
> >
> >4. What is the typical way of actuating bow and stern control
> >planes?
> >
> >Any other things you would like to point out.....would be
> >appreciated. I do not have any materials to read regarding the
> >design and construction of a sub. My area is very rural and the
> >library is much to be desired.
> >
> >
> >James Long
> >Owner/Designer
> >Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >************************************************************************
> >************************************************************************
> >************************************************************************
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>personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal CAN-SPAM
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