[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Madsen's Inspiration



Joseph Perkel,
 
 
You do make some apealing designs, Sir...
 
First on diesel boats.
 
 
Modern navy diesel submarines always use one or a number of  diesel gennerator sets. The single propeller is always powered only by one big electric motor.
The electric motor is much more powerful than the gen-sets - and gives the dieselboat nuclear speed in short bursts - short because of the inherent 
limitations in battery power. The most advanced navy boats combine this with an AIP system ( se my note on this )
 
This engine arrangement is dictated by tactical considerations that has little no application in a civilian boat - if copied strait over it will be inefficient and expensive - and poorly suited to furfill its recreational mission. 
 
A diesel Psub however do have some very nice features...
 
1. It can make long surfaced voyages at speeds in the 6 - 9 knots range.
 
2. It can recharge its batteries,
 
3. It can recharge its hp air tanks.
 
4. Its battery drive becomes secondary - and can be very small without compromising the boats capasities.
 
 
A diesel Psub makes transit on surface, and moves very slow and with limited range submerged. This works very well with the recreational mission it has. In other words you need a lot of diesel power - and diminutive electric power.
 
Imagine you purchase a standard marine engine - with a reduction gear and clutch. Via standard motorboat parts it spins a propeller. With that in your boat you have very long surfaced range. Expect to use about 1.5 to 3 kW dieselpower pr. ton of boat. Then you add a small DC motor with a V drive belt to the propellershaft. Expect to use about 0.5 to 1.0 kW pr. ton of boat. Ideally its 12 or 24 volts - and simply uses the starter battery of the diesel motor ( not a standard one - a BIG traction type forklift battery - it will kick your diesel back to life when surfaced ) The diesels built in alternator takes care of charging the hole thing.
 
Its that simple ! 
 
If you wish for a little more trouble - and a little more NR-2 style - just forget the V belt and use electric thrusters like on K-250 boats. 
 
One note on surface performance...a surface ships speed it dictated by its length. The longer the faster. That is why Kraka is 12.6 meters - it makes it possible to travel at 6 knots with just 16 horsepower in a 6.5 tones submersible. 
 
As for trailers...I can understand all the reasons for the concepts popularity - you drive to you dive location because a K-250 is not a boat that is easy to sail over any distance. However it puts severe constraints on the submarine designer. Length - displacement - all is limited by the trailer. If you put your diesel psub in a marina and make your transit not by road but by sea - all this falls away and the size and endurance of the boat explodes.
 
One more thing - a diesel boat is warm. The Kraka´s motor is water-cooled - but it heats the interior of the boat to a nice level in Scandinavian waters - and when dived the hot motor block keeps the temperature nice for quite some time.  
 
I don't mean to say that the special way we operate Psubs in Denmark is better or smarter than the small electric subs on trailers - that type has it own set of features. I often dream of building a very deep diving boat like that. But - I must report that our diesel engine concept works, and works well. If I wish to play submarine, I jump on my bicycle, go to the harbor  and a few minutes later I am at periscope depth. Or,  I tour the capital of Denmark with is harbor and canals as a surface boat. In the world of psubs - going diesel is analog to the revolution of nuclear power in navy boats - you get a hole new level of range and comfort.  
 
Regards,
 
Peter Madsen
 
 
 
   
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 8:15 PM
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Madsen's Inspiration

.....Well Peter Madsen has infected me with diesel boat disease! :)  To the point of giving Alvin Jr. major cosmetic surgery. So may I introduce.... NR-2., http://www.frappr.com/?a=viewphoto&id=269116&pid=5807634   ....a facsimile inspiration of the Navy's NR-1 sub but still using the Kittredge platform... http://www.jasonproject.org/jason7/nr1/index.html

As before, input from the list is invaluable as Alvin Jr. was the result of this valuable input. This is about the size of Freya, target weight within handling limits of a fifth wheel utility trailer, to be slung in by a marina. That box keel you see houses a single battery pod and two VBT's at each end however, access, draft, and dropable ballast issues are apparent..(still to be determined).

It occurred to me while perusing my various ideas for my great retirement project, that trailer boats get fairly infrequent use anyway. For that matter, so do marina boats, (been there done that)! ...So why not go for it! ... the maximum size and amenities that I could still store between use. Maintaining and upgrading systems would be part of the fun anyway.

I can tell you now, that this will be a shallow water boat, not unlike both Freya, and Kraka, for the same reasons. I will do the ABS calculations once I have a solid concept to work with. This is fine with me, Andrea Doria depths scare me anyway, so if I can't get there, I wont try!

I have two major questions to be answered early on.

#1  Diesel electric   Which way to go . An engine turning a prop...or a generator running everything else??  Could I ask those Minn Kotas to do continuous duty for long transits or not even though they are submerged?

#2    1/4" or 5/16"??   Not looking for depth capability here so much as corrosion allowance and extra weight gain. NR-2 at this point, has 108 cu feet of submersible volume. More weight in structure is less carried in lead but, what do I give up in terms of workability with that added 1/16th??

 

 

************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages from our organization. If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the link below or send a blank email message to: removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an automated process and should be complete within five minutes of our server receiving your request. PSUBS.ORG PO Box 53 Weare, NH 03281 603-529-1100 ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************


Jeg beskyttes af den gratis SPAMfighter til privatbrugere.
Den har indtil videre sparet mig for at få 14357 spam-mails
Betalende brugere får ikke denne besked i deres e-mails.
Hent en gratis SPAMfighter her.