Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel

Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel

Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 11:15:34 -0700 (PDT)

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In-reply-to: <001701c79260$6f017270$b078d458@peter89og2lhw4>

Reply-to: personal_submersibles@psubs.org

Sender: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org

Peter,

I think Frank Busby in "Manned Submersibles" may have covered something on the topic in one of the latter chapters. Something about it sounds very familiar as far as directional hydrophone array. I could be wrong but incase you don't have a copy, I'll look into it after I get some sleep and get back to you. I have my own copy, broke as I am, gotten through laboriously downloading its 800 pages, a page at a time, as jpg files, off the internet =)

Ken

- uhoh, I found something which may be of interest to you... I'll type it all out, but let me make it a seperate topic.

Peter Madsen <peter@submarines.dk> wrote:

From this little debate on certain aspect of submarine safety - I have
learned that someone is looking into an essential professional solution with
acoustic detection by means of directional hydrophone array - and the our
current procedure ( periscope and upward looking viewport ) is consistent
with ABS rules.

As for the inert buoy - with no cameras, no radio - but just a flag my gut
feeling is that it not good to leave I to others to look after us. A blind
and def person may survive walking about on a highway - because other people
are awake - but its not a smart or dependable method since every car may not
have perfect brakes or an awake driver.

As mentioned we used the international diver flag on our buoy.

What I conclude is that its possible to provide the submarine pilot with
enough intelligence on the situation on surface to surface safely - by
adding a few simple gadgets - or even better by providing communication with
a support ship if such one is used.

I very much hope to hear more about the directional hydrophone idea - and I
wish to tell you that its very nice to reed your comments on the issue.

Regards,

Peter

----- Original Message -----
From: "irox"
To:
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel

>
> The diver flag (red back ground and white diagnal stripe) might be a
> better option since it's probably more widely know. I'm imagining
> that even a couple of yahoos on jetskis will be familar with the
> diver flag, probably not so many will know the "Isolated Danger"
> sign.
>
> If I saw something strange, I would not run from it, I would
> investigate it (sounds, gas, etc.) and/or notify coastgaurd or
> habour authorities (depending on the area). But if it was clear
> that it was there to warn people away, I would understand I need
> to stay away from that area.
>
> Cheers,
> Ian.
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: james@guernseysubmarine.com
>>Sent: May 10, 2007 11:16 AM
>>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
>>
>>Hi Ken/All
>>
>>With regards to Peter/Kens comments regarding a suddenly appearing buoy
>>attracting boats rather than detering them.
>>
>>What about using the standard marine navigation marker buoy for "Isolated
>>Danger", which is a red and black stripey buoy with 2 black balls on top?
>>
>>This is the standard sign and should be known by most people using the
>>water. It is internationally recognised and should (in theory) send
>>shipping running.
>>
>>Of course there is still the possibility that the person on board the boat
>>doesnt realise the meaning of the buoy.
>>
>>James
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Ken F [mailto:syber_psubber@yahoo.com]
>>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>>Sent: Thu, 10 May 2007 04:17:40 -0700 (PDT)
>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
>>
>>Peter,
>>
>> I've got a great idea on how to improve on your buoy idea. I understand
>> what you mean about it suddenly appearing and attracting surface craft.
>>So instead, rig it with warning beacons, and a large inflatable banner
>>with a biohazard or radiation sign. Throw in some geiger counter
>>crackling sound effects, a recorded cautionary voice, maybe purge some gas
>>up to the surface..., in 5 minutes you wouldnt have anything within 5
>>miles around to come up under
>> =P
>>
>>Ken
>>
>> - no actually, in all seriousness, couldnt you just use a normal
>> "warning, do not come near" sign? "Please clear the area" something
>> like that?
>> In lieu of announcing your presence, I like Les's vertical piece of
>> pvc... its lo-tech. And if it hits anything hard enough it'll just snap
>> off.
>>
>>
>>Peter Madsen wrote:
>> v\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } o\:* { BEHAVIOR:
>> url(#default#VML) } w\:* { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } .shape
>> { BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML) } Thijs,
>>
>> Mostly we operate a very low speed...in recreational waters...but a
>> silent sailboat still is a problem. Back when I sailed with Freya in
>> 2002 - I used a diver buoy exactly like you describe. It was bright
>> yellow and hade a big diver flag on it. Unfortunately it attracted
>> recreational boats much more than making them stay clear - so I stopped
>> using it.
>>
>> Once you get hit - it really doesn't matter who were right and who were
>> wrong in accordance to maritime law.
>>
>> I like the idea of using hydrophones and visual systems since I feel its
>> us - the submariners - not the other recreational and commersial vessels
>> that
>> must prevent this problem.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Peter
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Thijs Struijs
>> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 9:37 AM
>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
>>
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> I presume that when you surface you have some speed and you operate in
>> waters were you have to deal with big and noisy ships.
>> For small subs, operating in recreational waters and surfacing at zero
>> speed i was thinking of a buoy as used by scuba divers. The
>> (pressure-resistant) buoy should be attached to a 5 mtr. line. When
>> surfacing you could wait for let's say a minute at 5 mtr.depth before
>> comming to the surface. This works for scuba divers, so why should it not
>> work for subs. If you combine the buoy with a flashing light and a
>> rotating camera it should work even better.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Thijs Struijs
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Peter Madsen
>> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 11:06 AM
>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
>>
>>
>> Jay,
>>
>>
>> Kraka, the diesel-electric boat I pilot have both up looking windows and
>> features a periscope. This is based on four cameras each covering 90 deg
>> of the horizon. By choosing to look a say camera four I know that I am
>> looking aft while no two give me the starborad view - and so on. My idea
>> for the final solution on the collision problem was to make a buoy with
>> say 60 feet of cable on it. Its formed like a long pole with the four
>> camera at the top, a flotation device at the middle and ballast at the
>> bottom. Poles standing in the water like this can be quite stable (
>> provided the uboat don't make way )
>>
>> My experience is that anything on as submarine must be made with great
>> care. We have had many problems with flooded GPS antennae, moisture in
>> the periscope and broken diveplanes ( they protrude ) and the answer is
>> always to make things better, stronger and more carefully. Most of these
>> problems have solutions that can not be found at the drawing board alone.
>>
>> Solving it - is half the fun...
>>
>>
>> One of our special problems is that our boat in only drydocked once a
>> year so many improvements or repairs comes only in these service periods.
>> One of the features of a trailer based submarine is that it sits in your
>> living room...most of the time. This is just not the case wih Kraka.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Jay K. Jeffries
>> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 1:43 AM
>> Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
>>
>>
>> Peter,
>> I agree with you that a collision on or near the surface is one of the
>> most likely major accidents to happen to a PSUB. This is supported by
>> submarine history demonstrating that this is one of the largest causes of
>> submarines under peace-time conditions.
>>
>> The ABS included the requirements for a small porthole in the hatch so
>> that you could look up while approaching the surface and hopefully see
>> the shadow of a vessel overhead that is silent or stopped. Larger
>> submarines with a periscope have the capability to train the scope?s top
>> lens upwards to accomplish the same feat. Many sub?s operating
>> procedures include a pause in ascent near the surface to look and listen
>> for other vessels in the near vicinity.
>>
>> If you do not have much internal noise in your PSUB, you should hear
>> most power vessels while still at some distance. A trainable hydrophone
>> will help discern the direction. The cabled camera is a good substitute
>> for a periscope but will be difficult to obtain a stable image with known
>> viewing direction on the surface. Just remember that gadgets just
>> require more maintenance and can detract from pleasurable operating time.
>> R/Jay
>>
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jay K. Jeffries
>> Andros Is., Bahamas
>>
>> A skimmer afloat is but a submarine, so poorly built it will not plunge.
>>
>>
>> From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>> [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Peter Madsen
>>Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 6:28 PM
>>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collition with surface vessel
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Psubbers,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> When people talk of submarine safety the situation most often assumed
>> is a sub in distress on the seabed. This is of cause a very critical
>> situation,
>>
>> and we all design boats that are redundant in many ways so that we
>> hopefully never get in that situation.
>>
>>
>>
>> In my practical experience - however - getting hit by a passing
>> surface vessel when being at or very close to surface is a much more
>> likely incident. Depending on the speed and size of the vessel and
>> submarine any level of damage is possible - and the sub I likely to sink
>> with its pressurehull ruptured to some extent after the collision.
>>
>>
>>
>> We are currently adding hydrophones to Kraka for detection and
>> classification of surface sound contacts, and we are designing a cable
>> camera for the UC3 - that can be send up prior to surfacing. We hope
>> these technical gadgets may make it more safe to operate our subs.
>>
>>
>>
>> The professionel submariners ( navy ) that I have talked to say that
>> they solely depend on their passive sensors - hydrophone arrays - and
>> they have zero way of detecting a drifting - stopped or sailing vessel.
>>
>>
>>
>> What do other non navy submarine operator do - how do you psubbers
>> handle this safety issue ? Most people ask me why we don't just have an
>> underwater radar ?! - or is it sonar - a sea surface hull detection
>> device...like the navy...
>>
>>
>>
>> Well - what do you do ?
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Peter Madsen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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