Peter....
Point taken. My radar references were to slow moving sailing vessels which cannot be heard with your sound gear. My apologies for not being clear.
Joe
From: "Peter Madsen" <peter@submarines.dk>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 13:50:56 +0200
>Well - like i wrote...
>
>"I like the idea of using hydrophones and visual systems since I
>feel its us
>- the submariners - not the other recreational and commersial
>vessels that
>must prevent this problem."
>
>In my onion - the responsibility on collision avoidance relays
>solely on the submarine. That way I don´t use the diver buoy.
>
>As for surface search radar...I have noticed the one on the RS -1
>submersible.
>Fact is - in our environment - the situation on surface changes so
>fast that a "radar picture" or visual picture
>that is - say five or ten minutes old - is of very limited use.
>
>Once - sometime last year - Kraka dived while being quite static.
>She was submerged for about five minutes and while I talked with a
>crew member - no surface boats was seen when diving and we surfaced
>in the fast manner that is quite fun...and on surface we had a
>roving boat - one of those very narrow boats that are super fast -
>at a range of less the 20 meters. The crew were all pale white in
>their faces...expecting to be gunned down or torpedoed next...and we
>decided not to discuss the situation - and left the scene surfaced
>at flank speed...no one hurt - but its one of those incidents that
>may little camera buoy is designed to prevent. Since this - any Hunt
>for The Red October - USS Dallas surfacing has been done only after
>carefull check with periscope. But it still fun to go from 15 meters
>to surface in under ten sec...
>
>Kraka might look like a U-boat - and to some extent it can be
>operated like one - but mostly we are slow - or static taking a good
>time to look at the fascinating underwater world. I have made some
>700 + dives in Freya and Kraka - with no collations so far - but -
>id like to assure that continues.
>
>regards,
>
>Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Perkel"
><joeperkel@hotmail.com>
>To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
>Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 12:44 PM
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
>
>
>>Peter,
>>
>>This is purely speculation on my part but, I suspect that since a
>>surface vessel has no reasonable means of detecting a submerged and
>>or surfacing submersible. That the burden to remain clear and yield
>>to traffic is on the submersible.
>>
>>You are of course correct in the assessment that in all
>>practicality, it does not much matter. But, should I survive and
>>have holed a substantial pleasure yacht, I think that their
>>underwriter will not wish to pay the claim.
>>
>>If I were a fast moving diver like Kraka, U-boat-like in
>>performance. In addition to passive sound gear for surfacing, I
>>would be very tempted for the addition of surface radar ala the
>>Kokes Marine boats. http://www.researchsubmarine.com/
>>
>>In this manner, you could both visually and radar plot all surface
>>contacts prior to your dive and thus plot known course and speed
>>prior to diving so that you may plan your submerged path and
>>duration accordingly.
>>
>>
>>Joe
>>
>>
>>>From: "Peter Madsen" <peter@submarines.dk>
>>>Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>>>To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
>>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
>>>Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 11:26:23 +0200
>>>
>>>Thijs,
>>>
>>>Mostly we operate a very low speed...in recreational waters...but
>>>a silent sailboat still is a problem. Back when I sailed with
>>>Freya in 2002 - I used a diver buoy exactly like you describe. It
>>>was bright yellow and hade a big diver flag on it. Unfortunately
>>>it attracted recreational boats much more than making them stay
>>>clear - so I stopped using it.
>>>
>>>Once you get hit - it really doesn't matter who were right and who
>>>were wrong in accordance to maritime law.
>>>
>>>I like the idea of using hydrophones and visual systems since I
>>>feel its us - the submariners - not the other recreational and
>>>commersial vessels that
>>>must prevent this problem.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>
>>>Peter
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Thijs Struijs
>>> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 9:37 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter,
>>>
>>> I presume that when you surface you have some speed and you
>>>operate in waters were you have to deal with big and noisy ships.
>>> For small subs, operating in recreational waters and surfacing
>>>at zero speed i was thinking of a buoy as used by scuba divers.
>>>The (pressure-resistant) buoy should be attached to a 5 mtr. line.
>>>When surfacing you could wait for let's say a minute at 5
>>>mtr.depth before comming to the surface. This works for scuba
>>>divers, so why should it not work for subs. If you combine the
>>>buoy with a flashing light and a rotating camera it should work
>>>even better.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Thijs Struijs
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Peter Madsen
>>> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 11:06 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
>>>
>>>
>>> Jay,
>>>
>>>
>>> Kraka, the diesel-electric boat I pilot have both up looking
>>>windows and features a periscope. This is based on four cameras
>>>each covering 90 deg of the horizon. By choosing to look a say
>>>camera four I know that I am looking aft while no two give me the
>>>starborad view - and so on. My idea for the final solution on the
>>>collision problem was to make a buoy with say 60 feet of cable on
>>>it. Its formed like a long pole with the four camera at the top, a
>>>flotation device at the middle and ballast at the bottom. Poles
>>>standing in the water like this can be quite stable ( provided the
>>>uboat don't make way )
>>>
>>> My experience is that anything on as submarine must be made
>>>with great care. We have had many problems with flooded GPS
>>>antennae, moisture in the periscope and broken diveplanes ( they
>>>protrude ) and the answer is always to make things better,
>>>stronger and more carefully. Most of these problems have solutions
>>>that can not be found at the drawing board alone.
>>>
>>> Solving it - is half the fun...
>>>
>>> One of our special problems is that our boat in only
>>>drydocked once a year so many improvements or repairs comes only
>>>in these service periods. One of the features of a trailer based
>>>submarine is that it sits in your living room...most of the time.
>>>This is just not the case wih Kraka.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Jay K. Jeffries
>>> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 1:43 AM
>>> Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter,
>>>
>>> I agree with you that a collision on or near the surface is
>>>one of the most likely major accidents to happen to a PSUB. This
>>>is supported by submarine history demonstrating that this is one
>>>of the largest causes of submarines under peace-time conditions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The ABS included the requirements for a small porthole in
>>>the hatch so that you could look up while approaching the surface
>>>and hopefully see the shadow of a vessel overhead that is silent
>>>or stopped. Larger submarines with a periscope have the
>>>capability to train the scope's top lens upwards to accomplish the
>>>same feat. Many sub's operating procedures include a pause in
>>>ascent near the surface to look and listen for other vessels in
>>>the near vicinity.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you do not have much internal noise in your PSUB, you
>>>should hear most power vessels while still at some distance. A
>>>trainable hydrophone will help discern the direction. The cabled
>>>camera is a good substitute for a periscope but will be difficult
>>>to obtain a stable image with known viewing direction on the
>>>surface. Just remember that gadgets just require more maintenance
>>>and can detract from pleasurable operating time.
>>>
>>> R/Jay
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>>
>>> Jay K. Jeffries
>>>
>>> Andros Is., Bahamas
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A skimmer afloat is but a submarine, so poorly built it
>>>will not plunge.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>>>[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Peter
>>>Madsen
>>> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 6:28 PM
>>> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>>> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collition with surface vessel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Psubbers,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> When people talk of submarine safety the situation most
>>>often assumed is a sub in distress on the seabed. This is of cause
>>>a very critical situation,
>>>
>>> and we all design boats that are redundant in many ways so
>>>that we hopefully never get in that situation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In my practical experience - however - getting hit by a
>>>passing surface vessel when being at or very close to surface is a
>>>much more likely incident. Depending on the speed and size of the
>>>vessel and submarine any level of damage is possible - and the sub
>>>I likely to sink with its pressurehull ruptured to some extent
>>>after the collision.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We are currently adding hydrophones to Kraka for detection
>>>and classification of surface sound contacts, and we are designing
>>>a cable camera for the UC3 - that can be send up prior to
>>>surfacing. We hope these technical gadgets may make it more safe
>>>to operate our subs.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The professionel submariners ( navy ) that I have talked to
>>>say that they solely depend on their passive sensors - hydrophone
>>>arrays - and they have zero way of detecting a drifting - stopped
>>>or sailing vessel.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What do other non navy submarine operator do - how do you
>>>psubbers handle this safety issue ? Most people ask me why we
>>>don't just have an underwater radar ?! - or is it sonar - a sea
>>>surface hull detection device...like the navy...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Well - what do you do ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter Madsen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
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