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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Regulator pression - Korea plastic sub - Hello B

Thomas,
That habitat you mention is NOAA's Aquarius lab http://www.uncw.edu/aquarius/ a very interesting and useful lab.
Of perhaps greater interest to us psubbers and divers alike is the Jules Vern underwater hotel in Key Largo 

http://www.jul.com/
It's located in a very protected and somewhat murkier lagoon than the lab is and is also ambient at less than 1 atm...I believe some 20' depth. Quite neat though.
As for O2 life support injection, mechanics of systems must be out there in the literature somewhere, perhaps ABS docs, Lloyds....some design text somewhere.
Don't be too hard on "symptoms" (stuffy in here) as an early warning system for trouble, it's a system that is unlikely to break! Also, this has been used in the non O2 injection Kittredge subs for decades and was the designers intention as mentioned in the Busby text. 

However, here is a link to a "gizmo" supplier which may be of interest.

http://www.rkiinstruments.com/



Joe



From: "Thomas Doster" <thomas.doster@gmail.com>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Regulator pression - Korea plastic sub - Hello Bob a 
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:38:23 -0400

Joe,

My apologies, also, to you, for not being as clear on my part. I could
not figure out how to word it until just now: The atmosphere in the
cabin is easier to guage and measure than the composition of your
blood. That is all I meant. I do believe that the composition of gases
in your blood are indeed important, but relying on symptoms for
measurement is, for lack of a better word, dangerous.

I also agree on it getting more complicated when changing pressure.
That is something that I'll step up and say that I know absolutely
nothing about, and probably wouldn't be able to comprehend, other than
how one gets the bends.

I'd definitely be very interested in knowing more about that method of
keeping constant cabin pressure.

An article about an ambient pressure undersea laboratory was in
National Geographic a few years back. I thought it was a fascinating
article. If I remember correctly, the laboratory was 65 feet under
water, off the Florida Keys. I could be wrong though. The scientists
would descend to the 65-foot depth, being setting up and performing
experiments, and entering the ambient pressure laboratory. The last
day of experiments, they'd spend many hours decompressing in the
laboratory (the bottom hatch was capable of closing, and surface
pressure was piped from the top). After decompression, they'd put the
dive gear back on, re-pressurize the laboratory, enter the water, and
swim to the top. That article was actually what got me interested in
building my own submarine.

Similarly, I pondered what it might be like to build an offshore
undersea laboratory or resort... "sub-station". Get enough PSubbers
and big-company sub designers to adopt a standard for a docking
mechanism, and you could keep it a 1ATM dry vessel. Nothing too fancy,
just mostly cylidrical vessels connected together. Of course, I doubt
it would ever happen, at least not within 30 years, simply because
there's not enough public interest in the ocean as of right now in my
opinion. Someday though...

Anyway, without getting too off-topic, whoever maintains/maintained
that laboratory would probably have more than sufficient information
on the topic of life support, especially if it's a collaborative
effort. I doubt it would be terribly difficult to contact the
organizations involved and find some things out.

Mine Safety Appliances (MSA) makes gas measurement devices. I'll get
more info when I have a bit more time on my hands. The ones used at my
work I think go for about $2000 (although, they could be cheaper on
the outside; I'm a federal employee.) They're used to verify that
voids, tanks, and other enclosed spaces are free of CO, have a low
enough CO2 measurement, and have a high enough O2 measurement. I think
they measure for other harmful gases. I'll see what other info I can
get. I don't get to use them, but I'll ask those folks.

-Tom


On 8/31/06, Joseph Perkel <joeperkel@hotmail.com> wrote:

Thomas,
You monitor your blood gas composition with symptoms (first symptom,... gee 
it's a bit stuffy in here), which was my aim in the post, my apologies for
not being a bit more clear.
If you control the atmosphere that you breath, you will by default, directly 
effect your blood gas composition...immediately.

All of this gets a bit more dicey when you start mucking around with
pressure. particularly where 02 and CO2 are concerned.

This thread is very relevant where safety is concerned and a quick inquiry
with a knowledgeable source regarding maintaining constant cabin pressure
while introducing external life support O2, confirmed for me the hazards and 
care required in developing a final workable system.

An interesting solution that requires more study on my part, is the
intermittent (as opposed to constant flow) injection of external O2 via 2cd 
stage regulator as CO2 is absorbed by the canisters, thereby maintaining a
constant pressure.

Don't ask me the specific mechanics of this as it is a new concept to me
but, one apparently used in commercial circles.

I am by no means there yet but, when issues like this pop up on the forum,
we are all well advised to perk up, take notice and refresh our knowledge
base.

I'll tell you one thing, when the time does come, I will take a more than
passing glance at hyperbaric physiology.

Joe



>From: "Thomas Doster" <thomas.doster@gmail.com>
>Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>Subject: Re: Re: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Regulator pression - Korea plastic sub 
>- Hello Bob and P
>Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:44:02 -0400
>
>I'm not sure how relevant the blood composition is. It might be more
>useful to know the composition of gases in the atmosphere. Afterall,
>our bodies do the rest, as long as the atmosphere is pretty close to
>being correct. What I mean is, it's easier to control what goes into
>your lungs than it is to control what goes into your blood.
>
>According to this site:
>http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/7a.html
>Nitrogen: 78.08%
>Oxygen: 20.95%
>Water (vapor): 0 to 4%
>Carbon Dioxide: 0.036%
>Neon: 0.0018%
>Also found are Helium, Methane, Hydrogen, Nitrous Oxide, and Ozone.
>For the purposes of psub discussion, the most important figures are
>that of Oxygen, Carbon Dioxide, and Nitrogen (which we'll lump all the
>other gases with).
>
>Now, a lot of folks think "Hey! There's hardly any Carbon Dioxide
>compared to Oxygen! But, remember, over-abundance of CO2 will kill you
>in a submarine before lack of oxygen. And "over-abundance" might mean
>one-tenth of one percent. So CO2 scrubbing is generally a good idea to
>start with.
>
>On 8/30/06, Joseph Perkel <joeperkel@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Hi Thomas,
>>
>>Always good to know the norms, below is a normal arterial blood gas.
>>Hypercapnia is the medical term for your question, here's a link
>>describing
>>scenarios and symptoms.
>>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercapnia
>>
>>
>>Arterial blood gases (at sea level and breathing room air)
>>
>>Partial pressure of oxygen (PaO2):
>>         70?100 millimeters of mercury (mm Hg)
>>
>>Partial pressure of carbon dioxide (PaCO2):
>>         35?45 mm Hg
>>
>>pH:
>>         7.35?7.44
>>
>>Bicarbonate (HCO3):
>>         21?28 milliequivalents per liter (mEq/L)
>>
>>Oxygen content (O2CT):
>>         15%?23% (15?23 milliliters [mL] per 100 mL of blood)
>>
>>Oxygen saturation (O2Sat):
>>         95%?100%
>>
>>
>> >From: "Thomas Doster" <thomas.doster@gmail.com>
>> >Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>> >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>> >Subject: Re: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Regulator pression - Korea plastic sub 
>>-
>> >Hello Bob and Paul
>> >Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:24:01 -0400
>> >
>> >On the note of life support, simply adding oxygen as it's used might
>> >not be a completely viable option. I'm not a doctor or scientist, but
>> >even though you're replacing oxygen that you've used, you're still not 
>> >getting rid of the CO2 that you've added. I think 10% CO2 is lethal
>> >(less? anyone know the answer?) even with 50% or more O2. The normal
>> >amount of O2 in the air is about 20%. Now, when you're adding O2
>> >you're adding to the overall gas in the cabin, and thereby driving
>> >down the percentage of CO2, but I would imagine that it would catch up 
>> >eventually. One might even say too soon to make it a reasonable
>> >approach to life support systems.
>> >
>> >An interesting option for relieving pressure would be to have vaccuum
>> >flasks inside the pressure hull. I'm not sure how worthwhile it would
>> >be to add pressure vessels holding a vaccuum. The purpose would be to
>> >take away the pressure added by the O2 being leaked into the cabin.
>> >Still going to run into too much CO2 though.
>> >
>> >I could be terribly wrong about all this, and if I am, I'd like to
>> >know. Just something to think about though.
>> >
>> >-Tom D
>> >
>> >On 8/30/06, Fanta <fanta590@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>Hello Bob and Paul,
>> >>Thank you very much for your advice, it is very useful for me. Please 
>>tell
>> >>me: the plan sale in the site Lake sub, is it a real plan? is it
>>serieuse?
>> >>are there some buy and construction succeed?
>> >>thank you again
>> >>Fanta
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Bob Duncan <katsurencho@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>Yes, Metal Anomality Detector(MAD), the stinger on the tail of the P3. 
>>I
>> >>don't know about the uproar, i'm sure there was. The P3 can fly low and 
>> >>slow, which has been an advantage. The disadvantage was that those 4
>>big
>> >>fans could be heard by the submarine miles away. Or even 2 big fans,
>> >>'cause
>> >>they often shut down one, and sometimes 2 engines to save fuel at low 
>> >>altitude.
>> >>  The British have or had (i really don't keep up) the Nimron, who's
>> >>disadvantage was that it couldn't fly so slow. Easy to overfly the
>>target.
>> >>It's more related to the 737 than a P3.
>> >> Technology has soared so fast over the years. I flew in P3's in the 
>> >>early
>> >>'80's and Moffett Field is all NASA now, the Navy moved out. Sound
>>travels
>> >>so fast and well in water. It's the easiest way to detect something
>> >>underwater that has the potential to move. Every machine has a
>>signature,
>> >>electric motors, shafts turning, people talking. Electronics usually
>>put
>> >>out
>> >>some RF, even if it's very slight. People talking probably not part of 
>>the
>> >>machine signature!!
>> >>   You can have 2, 283 (i'm old, i think they call them 6Ltr) Chevy
>> >>engines
>> >>built at the same place by the same people, and they will have 2
>>different
>> >>signatures. The sound the crankshaft makes, the sound the pistons make. 
>> >>Once
>> >>your engine is heard, it's signature is put into a computer, then when 
>>it
>> >>is
>> >>heard again, it is recognized, and distinguishd from any other 283
>>engine,
>> >>or submarine.
>> >> I was flying P3's when CWO Johnny Walker was still in business. The 
>> >>Soviets just read all our top secret and any messages like reading a
>> >>newspaper. There is a movie about him "Family of Spies". During that
>>time,
>> >>the Soviets learned that we were detecting them by sound. So, they
>>started
>> >>making their subs quieter. It did make it more difficult, but not
>> >>impossible. Since then electronics have became far, far more
>> >>sophisticated.
>> >>
>> >>   I don't know how Russian ships are now (or other former Soviet
>> >>countries),
>> >>and it's by no means my intent to speak adversly of them. In the past 
>>you
>> >>could always tell a Soviet ship from miles away, if you see a giant
>>rust
>> >>bucket on the water it was Soviet.
>> >>
>> >> As i understand the new P-8's are suppose to start showing up at PAX 
>> >>River
>> >>Naval Air Station (home of NAVAIR, Naval Aviation Test Center) next
>>year.
>> >>
>> >>Bob
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Paul Kreemer <paulkreemer@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>Bob, does MAD trapping mean hiding in magnetic anomalies? Sounds like 
>> >>some
>> >>you've had some interesting experiences!
>> >>
>> >>And wasn't there a big uproar over replacing the P3 with the 737 versus 
>>a
>> >>prop plane?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Paul
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>On 8/28/06, Bob Duncan <katsurencho@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Howdy
>> >> >  Having  been a P3 engineer at one time, VP-9, Moffett Field. You
>>could
>> >>avoid them if there were MAD trapping. But, usually they listen in on 
>> >>sonobouys.
>> >> >   And the P3 is going away from the US Navy, the P8 is comming in
>>soon,
>> >>P-8 is a Boeing 737.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Paul Kreemer <paulkreemer@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Yes, PSUBers should consider plastic hulls to help avoid detection 
>>by
>> >>sub
>> >>hunting P-3 Orions.   ;-)   Regarding manufacture and use, this
>>cautionary
>> >>note from Dewey Mason sounds pretty informed on the subject:
>> >>http://www.psubs.org/faq.html#fiberglasshull
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Here are a couple of notes on cabin air from the PSUBS site.  The
>>cabin
>> >>pressure would increase more slowly if you could add only oxygen and
>>not
>> >>air.  And if your dive time is short enough you may not need to do
>> >>scrubbing
>> >>or oxygen replacement.
>> >> >
>> >> > http://www.psubs.org/faq.html#cabinair
>> >> >
>> >> > http://www.psubs.org/faq.html#lifesupport
>> >> >
>> >> > A lot of design decisions here...  Like many more experienced
>>members
>> >>have
>> >>done, let me suggest buying some Kittredge plans.  You can get the
>>K-250
>> >>or
>> >>K-350 plans here: http://johnmaynard.tripod.com/
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > take care-
>> >> > Paul
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 8/26/06, Fanta < fanta590@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Hello everyone,
>> >> > > I am doing some calculate on the paper about the air pression
>>inside
>> >>of
>> >>the pocket sub.
>> >> > > If I use a tank of compression air for supply air to pilot, the
>> >>pression
>> >>inside of cabine up slowly, it need an system automatic depression, it >> >>means: return the pression as 1 atm. Here, some one has an idea about 
>>this
>> >>system? Please drop for me a plan or some idea.
>> >> > > The second problem is carbonic air is up and I want to filtre air. 
>> >>Have
>> >>you some advices about this?
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I hear about sub spy of North Korean, base on information 3 years 
>> >>ago,
>> >>its made by plastic !! diver very limit but low price and it is enough 
>>for
>> >>past many stations control in South Korea. North Korea use this type
>>for
>> >>infiltration to South Korea, Are there someone here have more
>>information
>> >>about this type sub? I do interesting this because it is confortable
>>for
>> >>poor amateur sub builder.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Thank you very much
>> >> > > Fanta
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Love and Peace, God bless you
>> >> > >
>> >> > > ________________________________
>> >>  All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things
>>done
>> >>faster.
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Tejas is a Spanish spelling of a Native Amerian word which
>>translates
>> >>to
>> >>English as "Friend". There was a Mexican territory with this name. But, 
>> >>the
>> >>German settlers and other gringos came along and couldn't say it right. 
>> >>So,
>> >>it ended up Texas.
>> >> >
>> >> > ________________________________
>> >>  All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things
>>done
>> >>faster.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  ________________________________
>> >>  All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things
>>done
>> >>faster.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Love and Peace, God bless you
>> >>
>> >>  ________________________________
>> >>Do you Yahoo!?
>> >>  Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
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