From: "rick miller" <rickm@pegasuscontrols.com>
Reply-To: 
    personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: 
    <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: Re: 
    [PSUBS-MAILIST] Re Variable Ballast Calculations
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 
    2005 15:34:22 -0800
    
    joe 
     
        the tanks they are refering 
    to are the soft ballast tanks.
    which does not effect submerged displacement, 
    they effect surface displacement. soft ballast is normally free 
    flooding
    the only time they effect submerged 
    displacement is durring emergency blow. but due to the large quantity of air 
    require to do this and the chance of an uncontrolled accent this is not thee 
    prefered method of operation. 
     
        lets look at what is 
    happening in the soft ballast tanks if you want to use them for a controlled 
    accent , for ease of the numbers we will use an accent for 66 ft or 3 atm 
    absolute. fixed factors accent raate is basesd upon drag and the 
    positive displacement. we will use an accent rate of 60 ft /min and a 
    positive displacement of 128 or 2 ft^3.
    durring the first thirty three foot rise 
    you will have to vent 1 ft^3 of air thru an oriface/ valve with a 
    differential pressure. in  most tank designs this space would be 
    approx 1 inch allowing for a differential pressure of .03 psi ie a really 
    shitty flow rate.
     
        for the next thirty three 
    feet of rise you will need to vent off 2 cf of air , while the  air 
    density has decreased the flow is not linear based sloely on density 
    
     
        so you would have 
    to throttle the vent valves in order to made any kind of controlled 
    accent. this could be done using control valves and a pid controller 
    incorporated in a plc.but that waywould increase costs 
    dramatically. 
     
        the cheapest way to 
    accomplise this is to use a small trim tank open at the bottom that has only 
    the capacity to give a small quanity of positive displacement. as the air in 
    it expands it will just blow out the bottom. this method will using more air 
    the a sealed trim tank if you are planing multiple accents and decents 
    durring a dive but eliminates the need of a high preesure tank and control 
    system for the water intake valve. although it would require a crew wiegh in 
    to establish basic trim. 
     
        a standard scuba tank is 80 
    cf a 3000 psi/200 bar. assuming a full tank at 1000 ft or 500 psi 
    abient pressure. you will have a reserve lift capacity of
     
    tanks size = .4 cf
    volume air 80 cf air compressed to five hundred 
    pai ==2.35 cf
    an available air supply of 1.95 cf or 125 lbs 
    of lift.
     
    the formula is p1v1=p2v2
    size of tank 
    80*14.7=3000x
    80*14.7/3000=x
    .392= x
     
     
    3000*.4=500*x
     
    (3000*.4)/500=x
    x=2.4 cf total airremember the air that will 
    stay in the scuba tank
    2.4-.4 = 2 cf of available air.
     
    rick miller
     
     Original Message ----- 
    
      
      
      Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 1:28 
      PM
      Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Re 
      Variable Ballast Calculations
      
      
      
      
      Rick,
      I had read in the NAVPERS manual for fleet boats, that a submarine does 
      precisely that to submerge, (reduce displacement by flooding the 
      tanks).
      As for practicality, well this is all just math for now. Incidentally, 
      I am not using terms correctly in these posts, ie hard, variable, soft 
      ballast.
       
      Thanks
      Joe
      
        
        From: "rick miller" <rickm@pegasuscontrols.com>
Reply-To: 
        personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: 
        <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: Re: 
        [PSUBS-MAILIST] Re Variable Ballast Calculations
Date: Sun, 13 
        Nov 2005 12:16:22 -0800
        
        joe
            you dont reduce 
        displacement by adding water. displacement = the total volume of all non 
        free flooding  spaces.
         
        the introduction of large internal ballast 
        tanks  creates a sinificant engineering problem and a possible 
        piont of flooding for the passenger spaces. most hard tanks are hard to 
        inspect for corrosion. not to try to rain on your parade, the kiss 
        pricipal seems to be the way to go here, if you ever want to get in the 
        water. 
        rick 
      m
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