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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Needlefish = F.U.B.A.R. Bill Akins

From the information available about the sale of Needlefish, photos, and comments, I am of the opinion that Needlefish does not work.  I likely share this opinion with many in the PSUB community, friend, or no friend to Mr. Gifford.
 
I in no way mean to discredit Bill, afterall, he has at least built something, but I do believe that his handling of Needlefish could have been done differently.  If it works, prove it.  Photos, documents, test dive results....something.  If he has attempted to sail or dive it and has simply found there are problems with it's design, come clean with that fact to the PSUB community.  If we all weren't reasonably intelligent, we wouldn't be here.  It would be a shame if Bill was to lose credibility within the PSUB community as a result of the sale of Needlefish.  We can all stand to learn as much about what DOESN'T work as what does.  If Bill were to fully document the problems with Needlefish, where the design and construction went wrong, that would be an extremely valuable learning tool for many.  Unfortunately, Bill has to pay the price for that tool.  Is it any wonder so many of us are "designing to death" our PSUBS ?  We want them to work, we can not afford for them not to.  Needlefish, to me, is a reminder of that.
 
   An extremely expensive lesson ?  No doubt.  A wasted effort ?  Not if Bill shares his knowledge concerning the design and construction of Needlefish.  A real possibility that someone could get killed in a sub with design flaws ?  You bet.  I know which one I would have a hard time living with.........in my opinion.  I just hope he is completely up front with any potential buyers.  It doesn't do any of us any good to read on the front page:
 
"Man gets killed in home made submarine"
 
....Now, back to the drawing board for me.
 
Myles.
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Daly
Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Needlefish = F.U.B.A.R. Bill Akins

Bill Gifford is a member of the psub group.  He got a psub award for the design and got information and help with how to build her from the psub group too. You should be asking yourself this.   If she was a good sub and he had to sell her then why not offer her to his friends at the psub group first or tell them about it at least?  Why isn?t she for sale at Gifford Marine?  Why does he not want to answer questions?  If he has a back problem then why don?t his crew work the boat for him? 

 

Look at the pictures like Gifford said.  She?s always hanging from the boatlift with at least one line taught and she?s never trim.  If she was ever underway would he not have pictures of it?  Or if she ever made a dive?  He would have pictures of that.  But there isn?t any because it never happened.

 

This auction is a big deal but I can see none of you want to talk about it in public.  I know Bill Gifford is your friend but I just hope nobody gets rooked or hurt by that white elephant he built.

 

N. J. Clammer



Barry Daly <bdaly101@yahoo.com> wrote:

Bill Akins,

 

Below you said what many are thinking.  Your email must be passed on to the psub group.

 

N. J. Clammer  

 

 

From: "Akins" <lakins1@tampabay.rr.com>  
To: bdaly101@yahoo.com
Subject: Needlefish sub. From Bill Akins
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 16:10:41 -0500

 
 Dear Barry.
 
I wanted to write you off the psub list and ask you some questions about the Needlefish.
 
I saw your response to Carsten about whether the needlefish had any dives yet.
 
I noticed on the e bay ad for the needlefish that the owner would not accept e mails asking
 
questions about the needlefish. I also noticed from  Doug Farrow's psubs post that the owner
 
is claiming a bad back as the reason for selling it and is very short with his answers and does
 
not seem to want to discuss much about the sub..
 
In my thinking, if I had spent 5 years building a sub I would have to be in traction or the hospital
 
with a bad back before it would stop me from running the dream sub I had just built. I speak from
 
experience after having had two major back spinal surgeries in the past ten years. By the owner not
 
wanting to discuss the sub very much to potential buyers it makes me suspect whether the sub is
 
any good and if I was a potential buyer I would want a test ride before I bought it. By his auctioning
 
it on e bay that shows he wants to sell it to the highest bidder without that bidder ever having that test
 
ride opportunity. Further, according to his e bay ad, the owner requires whoever wins the sub auction
 
to sign a lialibility disclaimer about the sub which may not even guarantee the workability of the sub instead
 
of just disclaiming any responsibility for future operator error on the previous owner's part.
 
These questions I had in my own mind, coupled with your post at psubs makes me
 
think something just doesn't smell right about this sub. From what I have seen I think he built a very
 
visually appealing sub that doesn't work correctly and wants to unload that white elephant without
 
explaining too much about it or giving a test ride. His statements on the ad telling us to look at the pictures
 
of the sub's construction and glean for ourselves how well she is built, sounds like a diversion as to whether
 
or not the sub actually WORKS or not.  Is that about how you feel also? Do you think he is trying to recover
 
his expenses and unload a non working white elephant without incurring any lialbility on his part as to whether it
 
works or not?
 
Thanks,
 
Bill Akins.


Barry Daly <bdaly101@yahoo.com> wrote:
The talk is Gifford finished that sub last year but it didn't work.  He tried to fix it but it won't trim and the ballast setup doesn't work.  She's got major design problems so she never got off the boatlift.  He can't run her afloat much less get her to dive.  I would like to see Bill prove this wrong.
 
N. J. Clammer
 
Carsten,
 
Needlefish has not been tested.  Bill says he took one, single, very shallow dive in her.  He did not report any problems.  I asked what more it would take to complete her, but he said he does not want to take the time to draw up a list.  He will gladly sit down with the winning bidder and detail everything there is left to do.  My guess is that it is mostly testing rather than construction work, but he did not comment on that.  His answers to me have been extremely brief.
 
I am of the impression that he put about $75,000.00 in cash out-of-pocket, and a few thousand hours of manpower, into the Needlefish, but would be happy at this point simply to recover his out-of-pocket expenses.  His website says 2000 hours and his ebay post says 4000 hours and I am not about to press him on that.  He also spend 1,000 hours learning all he could about submarines (he owns and runs a huge Marina in New Jersey).
 
Doug Farrow

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