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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trying again, Help a newbie
Brandon,
There are other brands of gel batteries that are better that Optima. I went to a battery company here in Ventura and talked to the folks there, they get a lot of returns on those Optima batteries. I was interested in the Optima battery myself because I was thinking that maybe I could take them apart and stack the round cylinders into a more advantages space. But the way they are constructed makes that impossible. I actually took one of those Optimas apart by cutting it open and examining it. I don't think they are a good design.
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brandon Macmillan" <2bitcomputers@gmail.com>
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 12:09 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trying again, Help a newbie
> Thanks for the fast response! You bring up many points that I had not
> thought of before (always a good thing)
>
> I had planed from the start to use Optima gel cell batteries
> (http://www.optimabatteries.com/publish/optima/americas0/en/config/product_info/marine.html)
> for exactly the reason that you pointed out, they are non-spilable. I
> hadn't considered the hydrogen that they produce though, I was
> thinking that they only do that when charging... I was just going to
> seal them in a water tight hatch that would be opened when charging,
> is that not the way to do it on a wet sub?
>
> Full face scuba mask, that's what I meant. Though I still may go full
> dry suit as the cold water is why I stoped diving before. I live in
> Vancouver Canada, the water isn't THAT cold, but I'm a wimp :)
>
> 2-4 hour battery life, I want to be able to travel for a good distance
> on the surface before diving at my dive site, I don't have a boat so I
> would use this sub to transport me to the dive site and do my dive.
> Typical dive times are going to be < 30 mins
>
> Why does it need to fly/do rolls?
>
> Well lets look at the purpose of this sub. Building a 1 Atm sub is
> beyond my abilities and budget so reaching depths that I cant reach
> with SCUBA isn't my goal. I can already ascend and descend with a BCD
> when diving, so that's not the point. The point of this sub is pure
> fun, I want it to be quick and responsive and to basically goof around
> the whole time I am submerged. Think of it as an underwater go cart.
>
> Wings?
>
> Because I saw the Deep Flight sub and though that it was a cool
> idea... Also I fly model airplanes and know alot about that method of
> control, and its generally how my brain works.
>
> Boat motors....
>
> Damn I thought they would work to 100'. time to do some re-thinking, I
> was going to use trolling motors because I could use off the shelf
> components saving time and money. If I have to take it apart and
> re-build it I might as well start from scratch and build a thruster.
> Like I said I know ALOT about electric motors and propellers and stuff
> from my RC plane hobby. I think I could make a much more efficient
> motor by using brushless motors, just alot more expensive and complex.
> hmm....
>
> This is pretty close to what I have in mind (
> http://www.deepflight.com/subs/wf.htm ) but I wanted to make it a
> 2-man and a siting position not lying prone. I also don't want to be
> in a bubble because I would like to be able to take off my mask and
> regulator when surfaced and ride around.
>
> So many things to consider...
>
> One more thing, I am thinking of making the main structure out of tube
> frame and then mounting everything else to it to build it up. Steel or
> Aluminium?
>
>
>
>
>
> On 5/31/05, Akins <lakins1@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Brandon.
> >
> > There are others at this forum more knowledgable than I that might help you
> > with certain technical aspects that I cannot, but I will endeavor to help
> > and advise you as best I can.
> >
> > First let me say that you must be dedicated to building this sub completely.
> > Otherwise it will wind up an unfinished project. Even a susposedly simple
> > wetsub can be quite complicated actually. I know. I own one.
> >
> > I will address your concerns and question in order.
> >
> > 1. You do not need a dry suit to have audio communications. You just need a
> > full face mask with communications built into the mask.
> >
> >
> > 2. If you want to do barrel rolls you cannot use cheap, easily available car
> > or marine deep cycle batteries. If you roll frequently you will spill your
> > acid out into the interior of your battery compartment using those types of
> > batteries so you will
> >
> > have to use more expensive non lead acid batteries in your design if you
> > want to barrel roll the sub. Also you want stability in your wetsub so that
> > means you need most of your buoyancy high and your weight low. Most people
> > put their
> >
> > batteries and ballast low in order to keep stability and to keep from
> > rolling over inadvertently. Rolling might sound like fun but why? In order
> > to design your sub to roll it will cause you more design work and problems
> > with the batteries and ballast
> >
> > weight. Most battery powered wetsubs are keel heavy for stability so they
> > will not roll over. You can build a rolling wetsub, but it is more
> > complicated.
> >
> >
> > 3. Trolling motors are made in other voltages besides 12 volts. My 74lbs
> > thrust minnkota is 24 volts.
> >
> > Trolling motors companies like minnkota will only guarantee their products
> > to 33ft. They are not made to go to deeper pressures. Now you get into
> > either oil filling your trolling motors or air equalization, or have special
> > ceramic prop shaft seals made to keep water
> >
> > pressure out of the motor. You will have to decide which system you want to
> > use. Or you could strap a couple of sea scooters onto your sub that are
> > already rated for at least 100 ft and believe me you might want to seriously
> > think about that since you would not
> >
> > have to go thru the whole ceramic seal/air equalization/oil filled trolling
> > motor thing. Also there is the hydrogen explosion problem from the batteries
> > and isolating the motor from the battery gases going thru the wire strands
> > and the tubing from the battery
> >
> > compartment to the motor. By the time you get thru messing around making a
> > trolling motor work to 100 depth and adapting that motor and building a
> > battery compartment and either oil or air equalize it, then making sure you
> > vent the battery compartment
> >
> > properly to let hydrogen out when you charge....AHHHHHH! Trust me, think
> > about scooters strapped to a wingtank. Then you could barrel roll all you
> > wanted without a heavy battery pod under the sub. If you don't have that
> > heavy battery pod keel then you might have
> >
> > a tendency to roll inadvertently. You could install ailerons on the dive
> > planes to correct that roll when you are at speed, but you might not be able
> > to control your rolling when you were stationary since you would not have a
> > heavy keel for stability.
> >
> > Since you cannot dive to 100ft for 2 and 4 hours because of dive table
> > preclusions, I assume you simply want that much battery time for multiple
> > dives. Most times I will only dive two times on a given dive. Sometimes 3.
> > You really do not need that much
> >
> > battery time and will only add unnecessary weight by needing more and larger
> > batteries for that length of time. Two good quality (read that EXPENSIVE)
> > powerful sea scooters with around 90 minutes of constant run time is all you
> > really need.
> >
> > Two weeks ago I dove to 55ft spearing grouper on a reef. I used my sea
> > scooter on two of my three dives that day. It has a run time of 90 minutes
> > on full speed. If necessary I can surface and quickly and easily change out
> > batteries and get another 90 minutes.
> >
> > You can't do a rapid battery change using a battery pod on your sub's keel.
> > Trust me on this one and consider using dpv scooters as propulsion for your
> > wetsub.
> >
> >
> > 4. Why do you want wings? They are not necessary. They do not hold you up
> > like they do an aircraft. Dive planes will suffice. Possibly ailerons on
> > your dive planes if you want to barrel roll. Let me ask you.....will you
> > ever get out of the wetsub while underwater?
> >
> > What if you see something you want to retreive? You can't do that if you are
> > slightly positive buoyant. The sub would float to the surface. Also I am not
> > nuts about a slightly positive buoyant wetsub. When you do your 3 minute
> > hang at 15 feet for no decompression
> >
> > diving, how are you going to do that once you stop the subs forward movement
> > and the dive planes no longer hold you down? You will not like having a
> > wetsub you can never park on the bottom. What you need are a couple of
> > bladders or small ballast tanks that
> >
> > you can vary your buoyancy with. Put one in the bow and one in the stern.
> > Have seperate lines going to them from your air tank so you can trim the
> > boat. If you do not barrel roll, then you can drill a hole in the bottom of
> > the ballast tanks to make sure you never
> >
> > overill and burst them. Also think about this....if you are in a bow up
> > attitude, your air will go the the uppermost portion of your bow ballast
> > tank right? Suspose you want to drop the bow to make the sub level called
> > trimming the boat. You would want to make sure
> >
> > your air release valve or hose on the ballast tank was built into that end
> > of the ballast tank, otherwise the air would be trapped above the valve or
> > hose and not exit the tank.
> >
> > 5. Although once certified as a diver in the U.S. you are always certified.
> > Your diving certificate does not expire here. However if you have not done
> > it in a long time I would recommend a refresher course definately. It is
> > suicidal and foolish for anyone to operate a wetsub
> >
> > without being a diver first.
> >
> >
> > 6. How much will it cost? That depends on your design. I would recommend a
> > military surplus kevlar wingtank from a helicopter that is 15 ft long, about
> > 1/2 inch thick and very strong. Cut out your cockpits, install your pivoting
> > dive planes, rudder and sea scooters.
> >
> > You could avoid dive planes altogether and just use pivoting sea scooters in
> > place of dive planes. Make the scooter removable so you can detach them and
> > use them for normal diving without the sub.
> >
> > Then install your buoyancy bladders or ballast tanks. It will be as
> > expensive or as cheap as you make it. But I guarantee if you make it
> > correctly you will have more than a few thousand dollars in it.
> >
> > Figure what you THINK it will cost. Then multiply that number by 3. That
> > will put you about right.
> >
> > Hope this helped.
> >
> > Kindest Regards,
> >
> > Bill Akins.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Brandon Macmillan
> > To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 9:27 PM
> > Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Trying again, Help a newbie
> >
> > Hey I just joined your mailing list. I saw a sub on a TV program and
> > it sparked my interest, now I am looking into building one. I was
> > wondering if you guys could help me get a better understanding of what
> > I am getting into and the overall cost of such a project. The sub I
> > saw on TV was always positively buoyant and 'flew' around underwater
> > using a reverse hydrofoil to allow it to descend thus eliminating the
> > need for a ballast tank/system. I think that's a pretty cool idea.
> > What I have in mind is a WET sub, 2 man, powered by 2 12v trolling
> > motors and deep cycle optima batteries. Air would be provided by 2 or
> > 4 (haven't decided) scuba tanks and both the pilot and the passenger
> > would use a scuba regulator (possibly a dry suit setup so we can
> > communicate)
> >
> > I plan to sit the pilot in the rear with the passenger below and in
> > front of him in some sort of plastic bucket seat with a 5-point belt
> > like a race car, control would involve pitching both motors up and
> > down for ascent and decent and also for roll control (what good is a
> > sub if you can't do barrel rolls) and either one large rudder or 2
> > small ones attached to the backs of the motors. I would like a run
> > time of aprox 2-4 hours and a depth of 100' Add on some powerful
> > lights and a camera etc to the power budget. I would like to tow the
> > sub on a trailer.
> >
> > Also this thing has to look COOL. Since I am going to have wings of
> > some kind I want to make it look like some sort of space fighter jet
> > on steroids or like a POD racer from starwars. Sub is for recreation
> > only.
> >
> > I have done scuba diving in the past but would have to re-cert
> > (something I plan to do anyways) and I can weld and fabricate pretty
> > well (I have a 4x4 that some would consider at the extreme end of
> > custom)
> >
> > What kind of cost am I looking at for something like this, I think I
> > am saving alot of money by having a WET sub and no ballast system.
> > Safety factor is high because the sub will return to the surface in
> > the event of failure as it always remains marginally positively
> > buoyant, and I plan to have an emergency pony bottle between my legs
> > in case I have to abandon ship.
> >
> >
> > Where to start....
> >
> >
> >
> >
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>
> --
> Brandon Macmillan, Owner 2Bit Computers www.2bitcomputers.com
>
>
>
>
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