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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] To Dan H. (or anybody with VBT (MBT) knowledge)

To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] To Dan H. (or anybody with VBT (MBT) knowledge)
From: "Dan H." <jmachine@adelphia.net>
Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 22:59:28 -0400
References: <BAY7-F50ag91lLWEiar00007c10@hotmail.com>
Reply-to: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Sender: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Pierre,
I understand what your doing now.  It sounds like it will work.

I don't know about your button arrangement though.  It will work, but there
may be a little reverse action by the water until the air pressure builds or
lowers as need be.

Dan H.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pierre Poulin" <pipo305@hotmail.com>
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] To Dan H. (or anybody with VBT (MBT) knowledge)


> Hi Dan!
>
> Here goes... My sub have 2 connected VBT. That's it! They can be
pressurized
> because I have a valve at the drain. Normaly, I will let that valve open
(so
> the VBT will be MBT or soft tank).
>
> But, I can close the valve and use the tank as VBT and have it
pressurized.
> If I run out of pressurized air, I just have to open the drain valve and
> some water will go out and up the sub goes. Also, I can use those tank
even
> if the sub is upside-down. By building pressure inside and letting the
water
> out throu the vent (now drain)... I think you could do that also in your
> K-350...
>
> I don't say that this is the best system ever... It's just so that I can
> have more options on how to use the tank. I will propably built a smaller
> VBT to use as VBT... And use the MBT as MBT with the valve always open.
You
> just never know...
>
> Thanks again on the VBT explanation!!!
>
> Oh yes... If I built a VBT. I might use electrical actuated valves. With
one
> button, I will open the drain and the pressure at the same time. And with
> another button, I will open the vent and the drain... I think that could
> give better control by mixing opened/closed valves. What do you think?
>
> Pierre "It's late" Poulin
>
>
>
> >From: "Dan H." <jmachine@adelphia.net>
> >Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] To Dan H. (or anybody with VBT (MBT)
> >knowledge)
> >Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 18:53:14 -0400
> >
> >Pierre,
> >
> >Sorry I was vague with my question/statement about MBT / VBT.
> >
> >You mentioned in a former posting that you intended on keeping some
reserve
> >air in your MBT.   ( If I understood you correctly.)  Your Main Ballast
> >Tank
> >is what you use to increase freeboard, when surfaced.  It's typically a
> >tank
> >that can't contain much pressure and the bottom of it is opened to sea
> >water.  When you blow air in, the water is pushed out the bottom.  It's
> >referred to as a "soft tank."
> >
> >A VBT, Variable Ballast Tank, is a true pressure vestal and referred to
as
> >a
> >"hard tank."  It has valves to control the air in and out and the water
in
> >and out.  It's used to set the buoyancy of the sub for diving then closed
> >off.  A VBT may be filled to any capacity that is required to trim the
sub.
> >
> >A MBT is either fills with air when on the surface to create as much
> >freeboard as possible, or TOTALLY full of water when diving.
> >
> >If you have air in the MBT when your diving it will compress as you go
> >deeper and your sub gets heavier the deeper you go.  A drastic situation.
> >Remember the MBT has no valve to sea water and isn't a pressure vestal
> >capable of holding more then a few PSI even if you did install a valve.
> >
> >I'm not totally familiar with your ambient design.  This is the way it
> >would
> >work in a 1 atmosphere sub.  I think you would have something similar.
> >Correct?
> >Did I clear up my statement or just muddy up the water even more?  ;-)
> >
> >Dan H.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Pierre Poulin" <pipo305@hotmail.com>
> >To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> >Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 8:30 AM
> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] To Dan H. (or anybody with VBT (MBT)
> >knowledge)
> >
> >
> > > Hi Dan!
> > >
> > > Hum... I can't?
> > >
> > > Are you talking about free-surface inside the ballasts?
> > >
> > > I don't understand what you mean... sorry.
> > >
> > > Pierre "scratch his head" Poulin
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Dan H." <jmachine@adelphia.net>
> > > >Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > > >To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> > > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] To Dan H. (or anybody with VBT (MBT)
> > > >knowledge)
> > > >Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 20:01:08 -0400
> > > >
> > > >Pierre,
> > > >
> > > >So then your soft tanks aren't really soft are they?  You realize
that
> >you
> > > >can't keep air in soft tanks and control your dive right?
> > > >
> > > >Dan H.
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Pierre Poulin" <pipo305@hotmail.com>
> > > >To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> > > >Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 10:39 AM
> > > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] To Dan H. (or anybody with VBT (MBT)
> > > >knowledge)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks Dan!
> > > > >
> > > > > So basicaly it's very similar to a soft tank but with a valve at
the
> > > >bottom
> > > > > (drain). My soft tanks are already configured that way but for
> >another
> > > > > reason (so I can keep some pressurized air inside the tanks if I
> >need
> >it
> > > >to
> > > > > resurface if I run out of air...) but I think I might built a VBT
> >and
> > > >use
> > > > > electric/pneumatic valves so it could be easy to adjust the
bouyancy
> > > >with
> > > > > small push from button... And also, it might be a good idea to
> >always
> > > >have
> > > > > the VBT at ambient pressure. It could be easyer to adjust.
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the hatch seal, I must confess that my hatch is not as flat
> >as
> >I
> > > > > would it to be... I discovered that when welding, things tend to
> >bent
> > > >every
> > > > > direction they want! And the hatch as a complex shape. Also, The
> >"flat"
> > > >area
> > > > > is a square tubing of 0.125" thick wall... Not sure I can groove
it.
> >But
> > > > > thanks anyway! It is not that big a problem for me...
> > > > >
> > > > > Pierre "VBT man" Poulin
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: "Dan H." <jmachine@adelphia.net>
> > > > > >Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > > > > >To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> > > > > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] To Dan H. (or anybody with VBT (MBT)
> > > > > >knowledge)
> > > > > >Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 08:24:37 -0400
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Brian,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >The VBT has two connections attached to it.  One is a one inch
pipe
> > > >that
> > > > > >water moves through and the other is a half inch pipe that air
> >moves
> > > > > >through.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >The water port is located at the rear of the tank (not important)
> >and
> > > >has
> > > > > >an
> > > > > >internal elbow and pipe that goes to the bottom of the tank, so
> >when
> > > > > >reducing ballast, it drains clear to the bottom.  The smaller
line
> >in
> > > > > >located at the top of the tank so when reducing pressure, it
vents
> >out
> > > >air.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >The water port has a one inch ball valve attached to it after it
> >exits
> > > >the
> > > > > >tank.  This is controlled from the pilots seat through linkages
> >that
> > > >pass
> > > > > >through a thruhull fitting.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >The air port is plumbed directly into the sub and then to two
> >valves
> > > >near
> > > > > >the pilot seat.  One of these valves allows you to blow air into
> >the
> > > > > >ballast
> > > > > >tank to pressurize it.  The other valve is a vent valve that
> >connect
> >to
> > > >a
> > > > > >vent thruhull in the top of the hull. This valve allows you to
> >bleed
> > > >off
> > > > > >pressurizes air from the MBT to allow water to enter the water
> >port.
> > > >To
> > > > > >allow water to fill the MBT properly, this venting system must be
> > > >located
> > > > > >above the top of the MBT.  My vent is located just forward of the
> > > >conning
> > > > > >tower in the hull.  An added advantage is that you can see the
air
> > > >venting
> > > > > >through a viewport.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >To decrease buoyancy:  (go down)
> > > > > >Open the vent valve.
> > > > > >Open the water valve.
> > > > > >When neutral buoyancy is reached close off both valves and power
> >down
> > > >with
> > > > > >the thrusters.  ( Of course if you go to negative buoyant, you
can
> >just
> > > > > >sink
> > > > > >downward.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >To increase buoyancy:  (come up)
> > > > > >Open the air pressure valve to charge the VBT above ambient
> >pressure.
> > > > > >Open the water valve.
> > > > > >When you hear air blowing out the water port, the tank is empty
and
> >you
> > > >can
> > > > > >close all valves.  (If making a miner adjustment to the positive,
> > > > > >pressurize
> > > > > >and then just crack the water valve a bit until you reach the
> >desired
> > > > > >buoyancy.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I hope this helps!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Pierre,  Your hatch seal really isn't a difficult problem.  There
> >is
> >no
> > > > > >need
> > > > > >to reinvent the wheel!  O-rings exist and they are perfect for
your
> > > >needs.
> > > > > >A standard Buna O-ring, with a cross section of around .200 inch
or
> > > >more,
> > > > > >in
> > > > > >a groove within two flat matting surfaces is all you need.  Your
> >"hatch
> > > > > >hold
> > > > > >downs" will apply all the force you need to compress the O-ring
if
> >your
> > > > > >mating surfaces are flat.  A 24 inch Buna O-ring is about $10.
> >Cheep,
> > > >off
> > > > > >the shelf and easy to replace anywhere if needed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Keep It Simple, Dan H.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >From: "Pierre Poulin" <pipo305@hotmail.com>
> > > > > >To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> > > > > >Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 9:49 PM
> > > > > >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] To Dan H. (or anybody with VBT (MBT)
> > > >knowledge)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Dan!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I know that there is a Variable Ballast Tank in a K-350. And I
> > > >imagine
> > > > > >that
> > > > > > > yours have one too.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Could you please tell me how this VBT is connected? Valves,
> >vents,
> > > > > >drains...
> > > > > > > I was planning to have a pneumatic cylinder and a piston to
> >adjust
> > > > > >buoyancy
> > > > > > > using readyly availible ambient pressure but maybe a VBT is
> >easyer
> > > >to
> > > > > >built
> > > > > > > and could do the same job.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I was thinking that we could use some pneumatic push button
> >valves
> > > >for
> > > > > >ease
> > > > > > > operation...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thank you very much!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Pierre Poulin
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > MSN Messenger : discutez en direct avec vos amis !
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> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > >
> >
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  - From: "Pierre Poulin" <pipo305@hotmail.com>
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