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RE: Offlist - RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure hull construction
Oops.... :-)
Marten
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Marten Liebster
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 9:22 AM
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Offlist - RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure hull construction
Ray
My brother just started working for Sun - he loves it! He's doing support
for a section of lower Manhattan in NYC.
Marten
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Ray Keefer
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 6:46 PM
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure hull construction
Hi Marten,
I suggest you read the first chapter of the ABS book. The inspector needs to
be on site to witness all the critical welds, construction and testing. The
builder pays all the costs for the inspector, his travel, his lodging and
fees.
But before you touch any hardware you need to submit you design, plans (in
triplicate), calculations... for their professional approval.
That is why a home built K-350 for $20,000 costs $150,000+ to build
commercially. Even after George Kittredge went through the ringer to get his
design certified.
Once ABS is done they disclaim that your sub is safe. The only claim it
passed certification. Which is good for one year then you have to recertify.
I seriously doubt any PSUBSers have had their hull certified. Those that
build K-boats (K-250, K-350 or K-600) can at least say the design of their
sub has passed approval, has a long history of safe operation, and is the
most widely home built 1 ATM design.
You get the "warm and fuzzy" by following the ABS spec as much as practicle,
build from a proven design, and do unmanned testing at Test Depth. Testing
is critical.
Regards,
Ray
Marten Liebster wrote:
>
> When I get around to building my sub, I do intend on following the
> applicable standards in the ABS handbook, regardless if it get
> certified or not. How many personal (non commercial) subs actually get
> theirs certified though?
>
> I believe in the handbook it talks about scanning (ultrasound??) the
> hull and welds to determine the quality.
>
> Do they come to you? If so, it must cost a fortune.
> If you have to ship your sub to them? If so it must cost a fortune.
>
> Seems in theory that's no doubt what one should do. But in practice
> I'm sure that it's cost prohibitive for everyone except for a Mark
> Cuban or Bill Gates.
>
> I'd imagine of that none of the 1 atm subs built by members of this
> group have had theirs certified. So that's what lead to my question of
> how did they achieve a "warm and fuzzy" feeling over the construction
> of their pressure hull.
>
> Marten
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Hugo
> Marrero
> Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 4:05 PM
> To: 'personal_submersibles@psubs.org'
> Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure hull construction
>
> Marten,
>
> The American Bureau of Shipping (ABS), Lloyds Ships Registry, and many
> other internationally recognized agencies (which are the equivalent of
> the F.A.A.) do have these standards available. If you purchase the
> book I mentioned to you a few days ago and read it, many of these
> questions will be answered for you.
>
> Hugo
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marten Liebster [mailto:mliebster@tbteam.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 12:45 PM
> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure hull construction
>
> Those with 1 atm subs, how is/will be your pressure hull be constructed?
>
> Was/will it be assembled by yourself or by a fabrication shop?
>
> Even if I were to design the perfect (unlikely) psub, I don't know if
> I could trust myself or someone else with my life.
>
> Taking a trip in an airplane is different. There are industry and
> federal standards for the construction, usage and maintenance. Also
> there are rigorous inspections. Plus, each plane isn't a one off
> creation. Also, ignorance is bliss. :-)
>
> So even though I would spec out the proper material and proper welding
> techniques, there's still that feeling of uncertainty. Even it was to
> be pressure tested to 2x operating depth, in the back of my mind would
> the possibility of problems developing over time with things I had
> built for myself.
>
> Safety being the primary concern, this might be a deal breaker for me
> (not for others, it's a personal decision) for a 1 atm sub. I
> misquoted a figure in a previous posting - 100ft = ~6000 lbs of
> pressure per square foot - I incorrectly stated PSI. That's about the
> max operating depth I planned to be at. Doesn't seem to allow for too
> large of a margin for a badly fabricated pressure hull.
>
> This has sparked another related question:
> Would properly engineered (pardon my misuse of English) internal
> framing widen the margin for error?
>
> Thanks again to all who have helped me to better understand how a sub
> is properly designed and engineered.
>
> Marten
>
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603-529-1100
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Weare, NH 03281
603-529-1100
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CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database
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from our organization.
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