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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] battery acid? & battery issue follow up

Ian, excellent points one must consider. Though I disagree with the part about skin contact. Under some circumstances it can be toxic, even lethal. 15-20 years back a chemistry professor back east died when she allowed less than a milligram of nearly pure methyl mercury contact her skin. She lasted maybe a minute, if that IIRC. VERY nasty stuff. And methyl mercury is everywhere. Just not THAT pure. Earlier than that the Canadian government was doing a toxicology report on the tribes indiginous to a part of the Nunavut territories (then the Northwest Territories). Turns out when Canada built several hydroelectric dams, they not only destroyed the prime hunting grounds for the tribes, but flooded their gravesites AND several areas known for mercury recovery.
Mercury (Hg) is a native element and it does occur in nature without mans help. And Hg DOES in fact follow the food chain. Crawdads are used by most state fish and game departments as an Hg detector. Catfish, suckers, carp, and all the other bottom feeders get that into their system. Any fish that consume them, inherit the Hg poisoning, and it eventually ends up at the top- you and me or the animals that munched on the fish. Just because a fish dies does not mean the Hg died with it.
I work with Hg, though not every day I have contact with it. Under certain conditions Hg can alloy with ANY metal and almost every element known to mankind. Hg can squeeze through places where you'd swear there was no holes or cracks. I lost several pounds of Hg once when I dropped the container holding it. It landed on a beautiful polished wooden floor, and it found cracks that you'd swaear weren't there before. All of it gone.
Hg also puts out a vapor. National Geographic did an article on it back in the 70's, and I've been wanting to get it scanned for my computer. Got the article, great job done by NG. In the article I learned of the vapor. Showed a pic of a glass of Hg in normal light and in either LW or SW UV light. You can't see anything in normal light, but it's almot like smoke in the UV light. Remember, skin contact is not always toxic, but inhaling it ALWAYS is.
Hg itself is not a problem for the skin. In fact some of the best antibiotics had Hg in them. Methyl Mercurochrome for example. When I handle it, I rarely use gloves. So long as you have the HgO (mercury oxide) removed by filtering, that is. No open sores or cuts or burns. And don't swallow it! Or allow it in contact with acids or bases, or even electricity! Mercury is used in some types of street lamps (mercury vapor lamps). Great conductor. But it puts out a lot of Hg vapor in contact with even the smallest amout of electricity. I've had one incident where I inhaled some Hg vapor, and it was hooked up to, of all things, a 9 vdc radio battery. Made me sick for several days. I presuem it's still present in my body.
Hg is a very predictable element with the tolerance similar to that of niroglycerine. And yes, under some circumstances even Hg can explode (though I seriously doubt any of you will face those circumstances, accidentally, that is).
If you guys have any questions, feel free to ask. I don't know everything about it, but I know enough to get myself into trouble! 
Carl


irox wrote:

You don't need to drink it to have problems.  Just inhale air near
some.... or let it touch your skin... or improperly handle a container
that had some in it....


Do you know how to handle Mercury?

Do you what it desolves and reacts with (metals and plastics)?

How are you going to pump it without burning out the pump?

Do you intend to pump the Mercury overboard as a drop weight?

How do prevent any from entering the human occuplied space?
Have you seen people who have been exposed to too much Mercury? 
Do you know how much damage a pound of mercury can do to
 an eco-system?

How will you know if you have a Mercury leak?

What's your plan if you have a Mercury leak?

When servicing your sub over it's life time, how many times
 will you have to deal with Mercury?

How will you dispose of the Mercury when you retire your sub?


I've left off a few questions here because they are more dramatic
than anything else.  But I would like to hear what solutions you
are going to use for the technical and logistical questions above.

Ian.


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Cox <ojaibees@ojai.net>
Sent: Feb 17, 2004 11:34 PM
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] battery acid? & battery issue follow up

I don't intended on drinking it, and it will be in a closed loop and
sealed.  The fact that it is liquid makes it ideal for pumping from
point A to point B.

Brian
----- Original Message ----- From: atozed@juno.com 
  To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
  Cc: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
  Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 6:30 PM
  Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] battery acid? & battery issue follow up


  The good news is that is weighs 246 pounds a quart. The bad is it's
toxic waste, and evaporates easily. It has gone from being expensive to
being a liability. My advice is stick with lead, slide it if you need
to.
  -Peter

  On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 18:03:20 -0800 "Brian Cox" <ojaibees@ojai.net>
writes:
    Does anybody know where I can get some mercury ?

    Brian Cox
----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Duncan 
      To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
      Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 3:04 PM
      Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] battery acid? & battery issue follow
up


      I can cast lead.

         Bob

      "Dan H." <jmachine@adelphia.net> wrote:
        Carl,
        Sand or gravel is to light for ballast in a sub. It's mass is so
much more
        then lead for the same weight that it's impractical in a compact
sub. A
        load of gravel in a pickup truck pretty much fills the box. If
it were
        lead, it would be a sheet on the bottom of the floor.
        Remember it only the displacement over and above what the same
mass of water
        weighs that's effective as ballast.

        Dan H.
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Coalbunny"
        To:
        Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 5:49 AM
        Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] battery acid? & battery issue
follow up


        > Shawn, that is something that I have wondered about- will the
ballast
        > shift? I have read how a number of scientific units used lead
or steel
        > shot. Is there anything that prohibits that being used? IIRC!
at one
        > time even mercury was used. Of course we know the
environmental
        > implications from that. One thing I thought of using that
should be
        > cost effective and would be environmentally friendly is the
use of sand
        > or gravel. But since I have no real unit to use that ballast
method
        > with, I have no idea if it'll work.
        > Carl
        >
        >
        > NeophyteSG@aol.com wrote:
        > > In a message dated 2/16/04 5:47:29 AM Pacific Standard Time,
        > > Asmyth@changepoint.com writes:
        > >
        > > Because Solo is intended as a "flying" sub, it's designed to
have a
        > > very small self-righting moment. [snip] If Solo had
conventional
        > > stability, she could never roll or fly inverted.
        > >
        > > Totally understand. My design is facing similar constraints
except that
        > > all my nonessentials are fared external to the pressure hull
which, Sgt.
        > > Pepper-ish, is much smalle! r than yours appears to be. In
my case, I'm
        > > juggling axiometric placement of everything in the
horizontal and
        > > vertical planes through the hull's longitudinal axis,
leaving the drop
        > > weight(s) placement until near the end to essentially force
the righting
        > > moment equations to balance. I also liked the idea of
essentially being
        > > able to use just about everything except the pressure hull
as a drop
        > > weight should the absolute need arise.
        > >
        > > What gave me a worse headache was trying to figure out a
functional
        > > ballast system for a craft which will hypothetically have
six degrees of
        > > freedom, won't "slosh" around (changing the center of
buoyancy), and
        > > will work no matter what the orientation of the craft ...
including
        > > upside down.
        > >
        > > Given the batteries are snug against the hull "ceiling", I
can't
        > > reach the lu! gs to connect the cables unless they are
upside down.
        > > Plus, I don't want the lugs shorting out against the hull.
If they
        > > cannot go upside down, I'll probably have to lower
everything by
        > > about 3". Plus, all the cables will now be a few inches too
short.
        > >
        > > Aside from simply not having the room, you're making me glad
that I
        > > chose to mount all but the two emergency reserve batteries
outboard ...
        > > not meaning to take pleasure from your pain. :)
        > >
        > >
        > > In a message dated 2/16/04 7:00:24 AM Pacific Standard Time,
        > > Asmyth@changepoint.com writes:
        > >
        > > The Lifelines can be used in any position, but only charged
upright.
        > > The Optimas can be used or charged in any position at all.
        > > Unfortunately, I can't do a straight replacement because
Optima
        > > doesn't make a battery as large as the ones I'm using. So it
looks
        > > like I need to modify my hardware and calculations to turn
them
        > > right side up
        > >
        > > FWIW, possible KISS solution: Incorporate a pivot and latch
into the
        > > mounting hardware whereby you can drop them down into an
upright
        > > position for charging -- when you won't be occupying that
space -- then
        > > latch them back upside down and against the hull during
dives. If the
        > > current cabling reaches the lugs in their upside down
position, you
        > > won't even have to lengthen them because they'll just need
to rotate
        > > 180-degrees. Make sense?
        > >
        > > Warm Regards
        > > Shawn
        > >
        > >
        > > *****
        > >
        > > "Call nothing thy own except thy soul.
        > > Love not what thou art, but only what thou may become.
        > > Do not pursue pleasure, for thou may have the misfortune to
overtake
        it...
        > >! ; Live in the vision of that one for whom great deeds are
done ..."
        > >
        > > Man of LaMancha, D. Wasserman
        >
        > --
        > Spotted Owl...it's what's for dinner.
        >
        >




      Fact is stranger than fiction. Truth is stronger than fact. R.
Duncan


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--
Spotted Owl...it's what's for dinner.