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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test of CO2 safety hardware - any volunteers?



Pierre,
I am not sure if the solution will turn clear again if the water becomes less acid. I have not tested it, although that would be simple and immensely useful to check. If it is not a reversable reaction, it is true that its application is useful only once per dive, in a 1 atm submarine without scrubber or replenishing system. Im not sure if many people actually have 1 atm subs set up like that, though if they do, this might be a useful system. I think it is worth checking out anyhow and perhaps variants can be developed.
EM.



Pierre Poulin wrote:

Hi Erik,

It sounds like a good idea.

A simple question... Suppose that you have a sub that you can breath the ambient air for 14 hours. So the level of co2 is very low. but, if you pump the air inside the water-tank for several hours, you will always increase the amount of acid in the water even if the co2 in the sub remain at the same level. So the solution will become red and the ambient level of co2 will still be at low level.

Am I correct?

Also, it look like a oneway system. If you use scrubber, you have to change water right?

Pierre "chemical" Poulin



From: Erik Muller <emuller@naic.edu>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test of CO2 safety hardware - any volunteers?
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:25:28 -0400

OK Pierre, but I suspect that some people will not approve of the inexact nature of this approach. I am hoping to test its usefulness in a sensible way:

The idea is that CO2, when mixed with water, forms carbonic acid. The acidity of water can be estimated using chemical solutions of visual indicators (or you can get a more exact reading using digital meters), for example, the chemicals used to measure the acidity (pH) of swimming pools such as Methyl red.

So it would, I think, be a useful test to simply pump ambient submarine air through a bit of water containing some methyl red. I have tested the effectiveness of this in a very preliminary way by blowing into a water/Methyl red solution with a straw. The solution turns red almost instantly, within a couple of breaths (thats ok, there is lots of CO2 in my breath and I am comfortable re-breathing the same air a few times).

What I want to see is how long it takes for the solution to turn red by pumping through ambient air from a sealed chamber (rather than directly from my breath). Or if you prefer: how red the solution gets when a person sits inside a sealed chamber for an hour or so (or whatever length of time they are comfortable with).

I would suggest that a simple fishtank pump would be very sufficient ($10?). Hopfully any O3 from the electronics wont be significant, though that too may be important to detect since it is toxic. Methyl red is cheap and simple to obtain from a swimming pool chemical dealer ($2). If people dont approve of chemical indicators, they could splurge and fork out for a more expensive and more exact digital pH indicator. I would be interested in hearing about results from that too.

In any case, that is all there is to it. I dont think it is TOO foolish and it might be useful yet. Let me know if pictures would be helpful, though I dont think there is any one way to pump air through a jar with a bit of water.
EM.

P.S. While I have peoples' attention, has anyone read the book 'stars beneath the sea'? I absolutely reccommend it, though it is entirely focussed on the science, history and evolution of scuba. There is not a whole lot to do with submarines:
http://www.bluebeyond.com.au/reviews/br-stars.php




Pierre Poulin wrote:

I volunteer!

My sub is air-tight. And I don't think we should go off-list. the more people involved, the better I think!

Pierre "air-tight" Poulin




From: Erik Muller <emuller@naic.edu>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] test of CO2 safety hardware - any volunteers?
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 08:38:19 -0400

Hello Folks,
I have a quick request for people with a functioning pressure hull (i.e. does not need to be a finished sub, just airtight) to see if a simple idea for measuring ambient CO2 content is useful. Its a VERY cheap system, and should work as a first-order indicator (i.e. not exact, but sensitive). Please email me offlist if you are interested and I can explain my idea. I might even draw some pictures.
EM.



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