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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OSS - 2D/3D
Warrend.. some clear words (hopefully - my english..:-) )
I like to see a decison from you - we use pen or 2D DXf R12 or 3D
something - and I want them today. I read 20 email or so starting with
DXF - clear talking just about a tool like a pen.. not about the sub.
And I do not agree to play this projects over years..
12/2003 or so the final drawings should be made.
Its up to you - but I think make a time line and play it.
Play the ball hard and quick - or we lost this game like
some water drops in the dessert.. To many people just want to talk, and
will never build a real boat - but some really want to see a modern boat
in the water.
Allways somebody will get angry about your decison but thats is normal
- if the majority is behind you - it is his problem - not yours.
PS: A group of three can do this job in 2-3 month.
Carsten - and I never say that I am alldays friendly..
"Do it right or don't do it." (deepdivers talk..)
Warrend Greenway schrieb:
>
> Pierre, I am compiling the spec-sheet as we speak. I am lingering
> a bit, to be honest, hoping for more input. However, I do have a
> pretty clear picture of what is wanted at this point. I will present
> the compiled spec sheet with a few options and once it is agreed on,
> I will generate a task list. At that point in time, hopefully soon,
> you will be able to "sign-up" for a task and we can get moving.
>
> Warren.
>
> > Man, that process is gonna take forever. Please let a leader take a decision
> > and let the groupe move on! We could debate that simple issue for days... (I
> > think that's what we've done already)
> >
> > I'm looking forward to be in the design process! In the meat of the projet!
> >
> > Pierre
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "Steven Mills" <barycenter@earthlink.net>
> > >Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > >To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DXF Files
> > >Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 23:58:43 -0800
> > >
> > > >From: Adam Lawrence <adteleka@in-tch.com>
> > > >
> > >
> > > > Looks like you really know your stuff, Steve.
> > > >
> > >
> > >Thanks, but to me, I sound and feel like a blithering idiot
> > >and obsolescense personified to have to exercise such
> > >bravado. Something one faces almost everyday when
> > >one gets older.
> > >Well, excuse me, I'm going to climb into my replica
> > >Bushnell's Turtle and crank 'n pedal into oblivion.... ;-)
> > >
> > >the Ol' Curmudgeon --Steve
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Adam
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Steven Mills" <barycenter@earthlink.net>
> > > > To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> > > > Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 7:46 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DXF Files
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Just to let you know, so all of you do not think I'm coming
> > > > > from left field or talking off the top of my head from being
> > > > > too addled.
> > > > >
> > > > > This has been a design philosophy and practice that
> > > > > I was taught and have been using for nearly 35 years.
> > > > > I worked as a jr. civil engineer for the Mo. State Highway
> > > > > Dept. and I helped design Interstate 70 between Topeka, KS
> > > > > and St. Louis, Mo. ( it was my first job out of University ).
> > > > > I've worked with architectural firms, engineering firms, and
> > > > > construction (and patent law) attorneys, where I had to submit
> > > > > preliminary construction documents for bids to both government and
> > > > > private business, which included high security projects.
> > > > > In the recent course of this work, I've used Autocad, MiniCad,
> > > > > Datacad and other software always using this *design criteria*.
> > > > > I have had the occaision ( and opportunity ) to work on some
> > > > > blackbox projects where I had to take an actual physical object
> > > > > and using digitial measuring instruments plot into 3D and then
> > > > > into 2D. That was a fascinating and fun job. Nonetheless, this
> > > > > drafting standard ( or practice ) was in keeping with the companies
> > > > > and contractors I worked for and "they" expected me to adhere to it.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is just a small partial list of the experiences I've had.
> > > > > However, at 52, I've been out of touch for awhile, so there are
> > > > > techniques and possibilites out there that I haven't considered
> > > > > or tried. I'm still doing things the old fashion way.
> > > > > "Wrong" may not be the word I would have chosen.
> > > > > "Better" like in a better way of doing things.
> > > > > "Smarter and more efficient" comes to mind, too.
> > > > > Anyway, I'm not slapping your hand. Just letting you know that
> > > > > some of us old warhorses might be a little behind the tech curve.
> > > > >
> > > > > --Steve
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: Steven Mills <barycenter@earthlink.net>
> > > > > > OkyDoky !
> > > > > > Just wanted to make sure. :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, --Steve
> > > > > >
> > > > > >From: Warrend Greenway <dub@linuxmail.org>
> > > > > > You are wrong, Steve! You can do it however you know how!
> > > > > > The software I am familiar with creates 2D drawings from
> > > > > > 3D, but the other way around is perfectly vaild. I don't
> > > > > > think that this will cause any problems for some time, since
> > > > > > all interchange will be in 2D through initial design. If
> > > > > > I've missed something, then slap MY hand!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Warren.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm probably reading this wrong and missing the the point.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Are we bypassing the 2D drawing process for "strictly" 3D?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If we are sticking to standards then the standard practice is
> > > > > > > to start with drawing a 2D plot : the profiles, mid-sections,
> > > > > > > top, side...etc. From there the subsequent drawings illustrate
> > > > > > > the detailed work; hydraulics, propulsion, control system...etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > *From the 2D plot (s)a dataset is derived to produce a 3D plot and
> > > > > > > rendering.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ( I suppose it could be done the other way around and take the
> > > > > > > points off of the 3D and produce a 2D, but it's a backward way
> > > > > > > to do things )
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Whether it's commercial or non-commercial ( open source )
> > > > > > > architects and Naval Architects follow this practice to produce
> > > > > > > an official construction document.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If I'm wrong about this then slap my hand and I will be happy!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --Steve
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: <jbarlow@bjservices.ca>
> > > > > > > To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> > > > > > > Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 1:28 AM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DXF Files
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How do dxf files work? I am very curious.
> > > > > > > > I have used them for years and have no inkling.
> > > > > > > > Jay.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Warrend Greenway"
> > > > > > > > <dub@linuxmail.org> To:
> > > > > > > personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > > > > > > > Sent by: cc:
> > > > > > > > owner-personal_submersible Subject:
> > > > Re:
> > > > > > > [PSUBS-MAILIST] OSS
> > > > > > > > s@psubs.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 12/01/2003 10:42 PM
> > > > > > > > Please respond to
> > > > > > > > personal_submersibles
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > DXF can store 2D. ??? What format would your recommend? I
> > >actually
> > > > > hate
> > > > > > > > DXFs since I know
> > > > > > > > how they work! I only recommended them because every CAD program
> > >I
> > > > > know of
> > > > > > > > can utilize them.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Warren.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > No DXF!!! 2D only!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > DWG or SAT for 3D (volume, mass info)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Pierre
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >From: "Warrend Greenway" <dub@linuxmail.org>
> > > > > > > > > >Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > > > > > > > > >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OSS
> > > > > > > > > >Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:31:52 +0800
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >OK. You have a lot of opinions. :) Ready to help compile that
> > > > list
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > >interested
> > > > > > > > > >and the skills they bring to the table? A landlubber is
> > >perfectly
> > > > > > > > suited.
> > > > > > > > > >Furthermore,
> > > > > > > > > >you seem to grasp the situation perfectly. I don't think we
> > >need
> > > > to
> > > > > > > > worry
> > > > > > > > > >about a new
> > > > > > > > > >server at this point, but I have a server I would offer to
> > >the
> > > > > cause if
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > >ever got to
> > > > > > > > > >that point. What I would like to see is everyone who has
> > > > expressed
> > > > > > > > interest
> > > > > > > > > >to either
> > > > > > > > > >post their wish-list or e-mail them to myself or you...:) So
> > >we
> > > > can
> > > > > > > > compile
> > > > > > > > > >a preliminary
> > > > > > > > > >spec. It will probably change a bit as time goes on, but it
> > >will
> > > > > give
> > > > > > > us
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > >place to start!
> > > > > > > > > >Please, all, spec the following:
> > > > > > > > > >1. Length
> > > > > > > > > >2. Diameter
> > > > > > > > > >3. Speed
> > > > > > > > > >4. Range or dive time
> > > > > > > > > >5. Safe dive depth
> > > > > > > > > >6. Cost window
> > > > > > > > > >7. Further comments
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >It seems like lead acid is the power source of choice. I can
> > > > handle
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > PWM
> > > > > > > > > >speed control,
> > > > > > > > > >so I don't think we need to worry about potentiometers or
> > > > anything
> > > > > like
> > > > > > > > > >that. Batteries
> > > > > > > > > >and motor should probably be stored outside the pressure
> > >hull.
> > > > > Steel
> > > > > > > > seems
> > > > > > > > > >to be the
> > > > > > > > > >pressure hull material of choice. Gauges and electronics
> > >should
> > > > be
> > > > > left
> > > > > > > > > >flexible, to
> > > > > > > > > >accomodate a variety of tastes, needs, and budgets.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Let's agree to use DXF for electronic drawings and TXT or
> > >HTML
> > > > for
> > > > > > > text.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Warren.
> > > > > > > > > >warrend@decagon.com
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Good Evening all,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I just read all the posts since this morning... wow!
> > >You've
> > > > > been
> > > > > > > > busy.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > OK... here goes. Carsten had some good points. I think
> > >if
> > >I
> > > > > spent
> > > > > > > > > > > hours on end burning the midnite oil and then saw that
> > > > somebody
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > > selling the plans in the back of Popular Mechanics... and
> > > > > getting
> > > > > > > > rich,
> > > > > > > > > > > I'd be furious.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Now... open source does not necessarily mean the project
> > >could
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > turned to profit making. There are lots of people making
> > > > money
> > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > Linux, after all. I also wonder how we might control
> > >anyone
> > > > who
> > > > > did
> > > > > > > > > > > decide to take the OSS design and start building and
> > >selling
> > > > > it...
> > > > > > > > > > > copyleft documents would not do.... as such documents do
> > >in
> > > > fact
> > > > > > > > allow
> > > > > > > > > > > one to reproduce and sell it. We need rather, a patent on
> > >any
> > > > > > > > > > > intelectual property in the design to do this.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I think that the best way to control commercial use of the
> > > > > project
> > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > be to design it such that it would not be commercially
> > >viable.
> > > > > > > I.e.:
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > one person submersible could never be used to "give
> > >rides",
> > > > and
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > potential market for such a machine would be negligible.
> > > > > Liability
> > > > > > > > > > > would kill it before the first dozen had hit the water.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The other thing is that it should be stressed concept
> > >only.
> > > > The
> > > > > > > idea
> > > > > > > > > > > would be for people to build their own machines to the
> > > > > > > specifications
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > the project documents... not for anyone to try to market a
> > >kit
> > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > > assembled.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If we produce the plans and the documentation... this
> > >material
> > > > > could
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > most certainly would be copyrighted. It could be
> > >distributed
> > > > > free
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > charge in electronic form. Just the fact that we would be
> > > > > giving it
> > > > > > > > > > > away free would discourage competition.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > A separate list with url... well, it certainly could be
> > >done,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > big a monster is this going to become? Do we need a new
> > >list?
> > > > > Do
> > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > need a new server... possibly with a forum? Right now
> > >this
> > >is
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > and exciting... like the new girl in school... but the
> > >early
> > > > > > > interest
> > > > > > > > > > > may fade as the drudgery hits.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > A camel has been described as a horse designed by
> > >comittee...
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > > then,
> > > > > > > > > > > a camel is a pretty impressive piece of technology. Even
> > > > though
> > > > > God
> > > > > > > > > > > likely did not consult a comittee upon finalizing the two
> > >or
> > > > > three
> > > > > > > > > > > designs, the concept is still valid. I think that this
> > >would
> > > > > > > > function
> > > > > > > > > > > best if somebody would take charge and start assigning
> > >tasks
> > > > as
> > > > > soon
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > possible.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > We perhaps need to compile a list of who is interested.
> > >We
> > > > > could
> > > > > > > > easily
> > > > > > > > > > > form our own mail list and take it off the psub list...
> > >but
> > > > you
> > > > > know
> > > > > > > > > > > what? I suspect that even those not participating would
> > >find
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > project of interest and it would be a simple matter to set
> > > > > filters
> > > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > shunt anything with "OSS" in the subject line to a
> > >specific
> > > > > > > location.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > A wish list might be one of the first things to be
> > > > enumerated...
> > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > soon as we know who we are.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > This could work. For some reason I don't understand,
> > >there
> > > > > seems to
> > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > quite a bit of commeradery here... and little or no
> > >bickering.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > OK, enough from the landlubber. I've already put out my
> > >"wish
> > > > > list"
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > mentioned how I think I might be able to help. I'm going
> > >to
> > > > sit
> > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > > > > and watch until somebody tells me to go out and get an
> > > > original
> > > > > copy
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > the plans for Trieste or something.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Dale A. Raby
> > > > > > > > > > > Editor/Publisher
> > > > > > > > > > > The Green Bay Web
> > > > > > > > > > > http://www.thegreenbayweb.com
> > > > > > > > > ><< dalesignature.gif >>
> > > > > > > > > >
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