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RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure air drive.

Carsten,

Current status is that Solo looks finished (but unpainted) from the outside, and empty on the inside. I'm building parts that will go inside, and to date have finished or nearly so the scrubber, a removeable-through-the-bow chassis for miscellaneous items, and the electrical panel with all the switches, speed controllers, etc. I'm now starting to think about a second panel with all the pressure instruments, valves, and life support. I'm delighted, I just picked up a pressure gauge marked in feet H2O (460' range) on eBay for about $20. I also just received some custom air rams for actuating the dome, and have to mount those and the associated piping. All these internal systems mean I have to weld a series of brackets on the inside, and then its time for hull inspection, painting, and a VERY slow assembly. I'm a slow worker (little time) so I imagine I still have a year or two to go, but its impossible to predict.

Send me your real address off list and I'll post you the Aquarius book, because its really a fascinating story Phillipe Taillez wrote. I'll then go and pick it up in person, about the time of your sea trials!

rgds,

Alec

-----Original Message-----
From: Carsten Standfuss [mailto:MerlinSub@t-online.de]
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 4:57 PM
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure air drive.


No Alec - I have not the book and I never heard this story.
But I have three pictures of boat build in the 50ties from junk
to smuggle person from East to West Berlin.

Was a intresting concept: The pilot was in a warbird aircraft style 
open cockpit as diver and the passengers behind him in a pressuretight 
compartment. Looks more like a warbird without wings (after crash) than
anythings else. They never found out how use it - was unmanned found
in a lake covered with trees. 

How far is your boat now from getting ready ? 

Carsten 


Alec Smyth schrieb:
> 
> The air-powered sub certainly sounds interesting from the perspective of simplicity. But what an amount of tank-filling this would imply in preparation for a dive -- portable compressors take a while to fill a single 80, and an air-powered PSUB would probably need 10-20 times that much air.
> 
> Incidentally, this brings to mind a book I have about a sub called Aquarius (but not Phil's Aquarius), which was written by one of Cousteau's original divers. Its years since I read it and I've forgotten the details, but it was about a sub that generated its own gases through a chemical reaction. It was designed to lift heavy objects off the bottom. Very original approach, but although they built it they never really finished the job. The designer makes an amazing yet un-substantiated claim to have built and tested a sub inside a Russian POW camp in WWII, using junk lying around in the camp. If the story was true, he sailed out of camp and pulled off what was at the time the world's deepest dive, then went back. Yes, really. Carsten, you have a comprehensive sub library... d'you have this book too?
> 
> Anyway, to answer the question on max dive depth. Solo has a design crush depth of 3,086 feet. However, how close she gets to that depends on how deep I get to test her. Ideally I would test to 2,000 feet and take her to 1,000. But I suspect finding a place 2,000 feet deep and someone with a cable that long might not be easy.
> 
> rgds,
> 
> Alec
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carsten Standfuss [mailto:MerlinSub@t-online.de]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 3:38 PM
> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure air drive.
> 
> Your lost range or runtime with your dual tanks concept -
> In deeps between 0 - 1000 m (0-3000 ft).. an open system
> with one 200 atmos.pressure bottle runs longer. Only if you
> go deeper than 3000 ft the dual bottle system runs longer.
> 
> Near the surface a (200 bar) open system runs about two times longer
> than your closed system.
> 
> The only good points for the dual concept = it don't change the boats
> weight. And you can blow the softtanks at the end of the trial
> with the half emtpy (or the half full bottle)..
> At deeps greater than 2000 m (6000 ft) the open system will not work
> - but the dual will.
> 
> Seems only a solution for deep going psubs ?
> 
> If you have the dual concept you can use it for deep drives
> and later switch to open cycle for the drive home near or at the
> surface.
> 
> But before you waste to much time - you should calculate
> how much storage energy a scuba tank contains and how much a lead
> battery of the same size/weight..
> 
> I have use underwater pressure air hand drilling maschines tools
> - and they require normal 6 bar at 250 L/min. In 20 meter deep the
> compressor on the surface boat was run wit 8 bars at 250 l/min.
> If you build this drilling machine as drive in a psub a
> normal size scuba bottle will be empty after about :
> 10 L x 225 bar = 2250 liter divided by 250 l/min = about 9 minutes
> near the surface. With a twin tanks system in 4-5 minutes..
> 
> Another way to calculate with compressed air:
> My 140 l/min high pressure air compressor use a 3 Kw engine.
> My 200 l/min high pressure air compressor use a 5 kw engine.
> 
> Okay with no energy losses.. the compressor gives - driven by air (its
> just a brain experiment..) one 140/3 = 47 l/min air to produce
> 1 kw motor output.. the other one 200/5 = 40 l/min.
> 
> Okay - it should work to drive a small psubs with 1 Kw
> so we need about 45 l/min with one 2250 liter air bottle about
> 50 Minutes (open system). With two storage bootles about 100 minutes
> (Also open system).
> Thats is equal to 1,67 hours or with 1 KW = 1,67 Kwh.
> The size of two bottles is equal to about one big truck
> lead battery of 12 V x 225 AH = 2,7 Kwh - but you can empty
> the battery capacity only to about 60 % = 1,62 Kwh.
> 
> The big point is.. the air tanks are naturaly pressure tight
> and can be storage outside with no extra cost.. and create volume there.
> The battery has to be storage inside  - or need a extra pressure
> tight container or an ambient compensator system.
> 
> Another point the weight of the two tanks is about 20 kg
> the battery has 70 kg = 3,5 times the scuba tanks..
> 
> Fact is also that the german air driven torpedos of WWI
> have had a greater range and runfaster than there battery powered
> colleges of WWII - but the air driven were to easy to detect..
> 
> Seems an air drive should be worth to investigate some brain time.
> 
> Submadman's - one request - Which Psub (build or under construction)
> is the one with the greatest deep diving possiblity ?
> Sgt.Peppers has work deep of about 100 m (328ft)
> and crush at 300 m (984 ft).
> Euronaut will have 250 m (820ft) and 535 m (1755ft)
> 
> regards Carsten
> 
> Warrend Greenway schrieb:
> >
> > Not if you use dual tanks. You lose some range, but you gain depth to
> > whatever your hull is good for. Obviously this requires a high pressure
> > pneumatic motor.
> >
> > Warren.
> >
> > > I have seen on the net a diver propulsion vehicle that works with air
> > > pressure, yes it works, torpedoes worked that way before.
> > > but depth is limited to 30 Ft maximum
> > > Herve
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Warrend Greenway" <dub@linuxmail.org>
> > > To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> > > Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 10:04 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CO2 Scrubber
> > >
> > >
> > > > LOL I guess I'm chuckling over here over your emphatic reply! You are
> > > right, of course.
> > > > I'll certainly be installing lead-acid in my first sub. Hey! That brings a
> > > thought to
> > > > mind...Has anyone on the list played with high pressure air for
> > > propulsion? I did some
> > > > calculations a few years ago, and it looked very viable for a weekend
> > > diver. I was assuming
> > > > a vaccum in one cylinder and 3000 PSI in another. There was a guy at WSU
> > > that had a pretty
> > > > cool air-powered sub, he said it worked great. You have to admit, that
> > > this isn't too wild!
> > > >
> > > > Warren.
> > > >
> > > > > I second that!!!!!!!
> > > > > What's wrong with a little beyond "tried and true?"  Maybe for the
> > > "outside
> > > > > the box thinkers," a fuel cell.  BUT a NUKE????
> > > > >  Lead acid is cheep, works well and last a long time!  Not to mention
> > > off
> > > > > the store shelf with no strings attached.
> > > > > Here Here Herve!
> > > > > Dan H.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Mark Steed" <plutomark@mail.astate.edu>
> > > > > To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 5:31 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CO2 Scrubber
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Herve: I love it and thanks! As usual, my best regards, Mark Steed
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> > > > > > From: "Herve" <caribsub@coqui.net>
> > > > > > Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > > > > > Date:  Mon, 6 Jan 2003 18:17:17 -0400
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Hi,
> > > > > > >I dont understand why you dont want to use the sofnolime specially
> > > > > designed
> > > > > > >for life support systems, do you want to make your own just to save
> > > $50
> > > > > and
> > > > > > >risk your life.
> > > > > > >Amazing to see that every year divers die with market rebreathers,
> > > yet
> > > > > guys
> > > > > > >outhere are ready to dive in carboard sub and milk cartons
> > > rebreathers
> > > > > and
> > > > > > >try anything for the freedom of doing it.
> > > > > > >A "regular" sub is ALREADY difficult and tricky to put together, why
> > > even
> > > > > > >considere nuclear homemade sub, flying subs, propane subs, peroxyde
> > > subs,
> > > > > > >and other out of your mind submersible, did anyone tried telekinesis
> > > sub,
> > > > > > >warp sub,  or time travel sub, is there anyone left here who wants to
> > > > > build
> > > > > > >just a realistic sub?
> > > > > > >Herve
> > > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > >From: "Warrend Greenway" <dub@linuxmail.org>
> > > > > > >To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> > > > > > >Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 1:03 PM
> > > > > > >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] CO2 Scrubber
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> I understand why divers wouldn't want to, but I still do. I don't
> > > > > > >> see what the problem is. You simply have to properly granulate and
> > > > > > >> hydrate the calcium hydroxide. Furthermore, you can get the product
> > > > > > >> from chemical suppliers properly packaged and pure for less. I
> > > wouldn't
> > > > > > >> need of want the coloring agent. I would be using CO2 analyzers on
> > > > > inlet
> > > > > > >> and exhaust to decide when to replace. Like I said though, the
> > > medium
> > > > > is
> > > > > > >> rechargeable. I don't think you would want to if you were talking
> > > short
> > > > > > >> range weekend diver...
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Warren.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> > At 09:52 AM 1/6/2003 +0800, Warrend Greenway wrote:
> > > > > > >> > >The basic scrubber will consist of a canister with two screens
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > >calcium hydroxide is standard slaked or hydrated lime, available
> > > at
> > > > > any
> > > > > > >> > hardware
> > > > > > >> > >store for a few bucks a fifty pound sack.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > I've been on the "rebreather" listserv for a couple years since
> > > this
> > > > > is
> > > > > > >> > another interest of mine. You might enjoy this website--
> > > > > > >> > http://www.atlimp.com/pend2.htm, although he is more serious with
> > > > > other
> > > > > > >> > projects - http://www.atlimp.com/home.htm
> > > > > > >> > other "famous" homemades -
> > > > > > >> > http://www.metacut.com/rebreathers/TP2000/Default.htm (this
> > > author
> > > > > died
> > > > > > >> > last month when the helicopter he was piloting crashed into NY
> > > > > > >waterfront
> > > > > > >> > at night- another dangerous activity),
> > > > > > >> > http://home1.gte.net/doctrbob/CCO2.htm,
> > > > > > >> > http://www.hrc.wmin.ac.uk:8080/xml/kiss/home,
> > > > > > >> > http://insel.heim.at/malediven/350052/english.htm
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > I don't think any serious divers would use hardware store
> > > hydrated
> > > > > lime.
> > > > > > >> > The CO2 absorption depends on the exposure to the surface area of
> > > the
> > > > > > >> > sodalime "granules" and anyone who bets their life on such only
> > > > > > >purchases
> > > > > > >> > prepared "sodalime" from suppliers that have a consistant and
> > > > > reliable
> > > > > > >> > product. The sodalime is discarded and replaced in the scrubber
> > > for
> > > > > each
> > > > > > >> > dive. source -
> > > http://www.metacut.com/rebreathers//sofnolime.htm -
> > > > > this
> > > > > > >one
> > > > > > >> > changes color as product is used up.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > William Alford
> > > > > > >> > walford@dbtech.net
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Tout comprendre c'est tout pardonner
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> --
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