Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] dome or cams ? was tank periscope optics

[Dan h <machine@epix.net>]

But Carsten, you misunderstood me.
I did not mean to say that a dome is a simple or inexpensive thing.  I am
now building a K-350 instead of a K-250 because of the price of a certified
dome and the dangers of a inferior or damaged one.

There are places and jobs in a sub where cameras would be superior to a view
port too.  First of all, I'm sure you would be the first to recognize that
the sub your currently building is by far the upper end of the Personal subs
in the world.  Most of the PSUB's are far smaller and simpler than what your
building.  To build an average smaller Psub that relies totally on
electronics to see anything after the hatch is closed and not have at least
one $150, four or six inch view port, to see out of isn't  keeping it
simple!

There is nothing simpler or cheaper to get a look at what is happening
around you than a small hole with a piece of acrylic stuffed in it.  And
I'll still have enough spare money to purchase and drink Scotch until I
can't see what I'm looking through anyway.   ;-)
My humble opinion, Dan H.
Cheers!!!!!

Carsten Standfuß wrote:

> Hi Dan ..
>
> The acrylic windows are only cheap for small diameters and tickness-
> that required that your eyes must be very close to the window..
>
> I ask for two windows of 700 mm diameter and 110 mm strong,
> flat conical port design from a serious British manufacturer.
> (Good for 250 meter work deep)
>
> The price for one window in 2000 was :
>
> 1250 Pound sterling for the window
> 1100 Pound sterling for material testing
>  350 Pound sterling for Certification
> ----
> 2700 Pound plus 16 % tax = 3132 Pound
>
> for two windows = 6264 pound (about 18000 euro)
>
> one stainless steel ring so strong that it can hold
> the window and do not dammage the pressure hull integrity
> is about 2000 Euro/USD, so at 4000 euro for two.
>
> all together is about 22,000 USD or 22.000 euro plus labor
> cost for the profi- welder .
>
> The visibel axis in my sub with this ports is about
> 20 degree to both sides. No real view to forward.
> And the windows are locate about two meters
> away from the bow-nose.
>
> For some reasons I decided to have no windows
> - but some 15 and 19" TFT screens.
>
> Maybe two of 19 and two of 15 inch size.
> Will be all together 2000-3000 euro. Maybe less in some month/years.
>
> A simple good cam is about 30 USD. The casing selfmade
> from stainless and acyrlic maybe about 170 USD.
>
> I will have at least one in the bow, one in the mast (turn 270 degree),
> one below the diver exit, one in the diver chamber and one
> with stern view to the propeller - so about 5 units.
>
> So all together will be about : 3000 to 4000 euro/USD
> I can conect the units to a videotaperecorder and the
> cam-units work near zero lux (more or less in darkness).
>
> Four or fife people can watch the screens together.. Some
> electronics filter can maybe apply - black and white mode
> for higher resolution with a additional bow camera maybe.
>
> For the price difference : 22000 - 4000 = 18000 USD
> I can purchase 18000 / 10 : 1800 bottles of fine scotch
> wiskey. If I drink one bottle a week = 1800 weeks
> or 1800/52 weeks a year = 35 years long. I am 37 years old
> so that should work :
> "Free drinking for the rest of my life - without domes"
>
> A dome is a fine thing - if your head is in .. like
> in a small sub like Kittredge or Sgt.Peppers - or
> if you have 26 of them like in a tourist sub..
>
> But for bigger boats ? Imagine a real big panorama
> screen like in NCC 17-01 D (Jean L.Piccar's ship)
> in front of your main bridge seatings..
>
> Acrylic domes can be very easy dammage by even small
> scratches - on board of the supply ship or in your workshop.
> So it is a good idear to cover them with a second non watertight
> dome..  The dome of Sgt.Peppers is 13 years old and has some
> smaller scratches outside from handling - so must be replace
> before next time go deeper..
>
> Make it K.I.S.S - like a CCD cam..  :-)
>
> see you, Carsten
>
> Dan h schrieb:
> ...
> > I don't
> > understand the advantage in using prisms to look around corners with
> > when all you need is a piece of acrylic to keep the water out.  Even
> > using cameras seems like over kill.  If the view ports are kept to a
> > small diameter there not expensive.  Say, keep them to the size of
> > plasma TV monitor and forget the electronics!
> > One thing about acrylic, as long as you use the proper thickness for
> > the depth your diving to, it always works.  No matter if you have a
> > power failure, an equipment failure or an operator failure.  It's
> > almost fool proof!  Isn't that one of the most important criteria in
> > designing anything like a sub.  When life and limb could be hanging in
> > the balance, simplicity and safety are usually the number issues in a
> > good design.  Cameras and optics are fine as extras, but a hole in the
> > hull filled with an acrylic disk as the main way to see out makes good
> > sense to me.
> >
> > I spent many years designing mechanical systems. Several rules of
> > thumb that kept me out of trouble (most of the time) were:
> > Be efficient. Do many functions with one part rather than one function
> > with many parts.
> > Keep it simple.
> > Where safety is a consideration, cover all the bases and take no
> > chances.  Design in redundancies, if allowable.
> > And lastly, design in some "wiggle room" to accommodate revisions and
> > up dates.
> >
> > Remember K. I. S. S. !!!!!!
> >
> > Dan H.