Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Propane sub

[CWall@swri.edu]

I don't sell my experiments.  I consider that reprehensible. If I did, I'd sell
 off some of my stable of gyrocopters to finance this.  This an a priori
condemnation on your part.

Yes, I understand stability issues.  I recognize that it would be very easy to
get into a configuration that does not allow egress without capsizing, and I
will do appropriate tank tests with scale models to verify that the design is
workable.   It is nothing that I haven't done before.

I suppose you guys are used to dealing with wannabes that think they can
concieve it and build it, with no intermediate steps.  I would not consider it!
   I will build scale models for several testing regimens, both for structural
and stability testing experiments- it would be foolish in the extreme not to.  
 I will, for instance, perfect the propane engine/electric drive in a surface
boat before I even begin to design the installation in the submarine.

Just because this is an attempt to build an inexpensive submarine (or more
accurately, a long range powered submersible canoe) does not mean that I would
expect it to be right the first time, or even particularly easy to do
successfully.  But I will have those things sorted out before I even start on
the hull, or I siimply won't start.   It just isn't the way I work.  

To sum up: yes, stability IS an issue.  You've quoted 24" as the diameter, but
that isn't what I said- I said the range of designs I was looking at went from
24 to 30 inches in diameter, and from 14 to 24 ft in length. And I also called
for side ballast tanks, to enhance the rolling stability when on the surface.
The nominal dimensions would be roughly 28" and 18 ft, but as I said before- it
 depend on what metal I can get my hands on.   IOWs, it's still up in the air. 


This is nothing that I haven't addressed in the first pass.   You seem to have
a real interest in wearing out my keyboard with redundant arguments that have
already been refuted.

As for the trailer issue, I use a different technique than everyone else- I
detach the trailer from the truck and use a line to secure it, then run it off
in to the water and completely submerge it under the vessel. Then the
hold-downs go on, and the trailer is recovered by pulling on the line until
everything is clear of the water and up on level ground. Then the trailer is
attached to the truck. You just come out slowly and the ballast water drains as
 you go.  There's no need to rush it.

I don't have a clue as to why you think free flooding ballast will make it hard
 to get out of the water. Sailboats have been using free flooding water ballast
 for decades. This is NOT new!

Craig Wall
---------- Original Text ----------

From: "Carsten Standfuß" <MerlinSub@t-online.de>, on 11/13/00 1:19 PM:
To: Incognito2@CTC@SwRI26[<personal_submersibles@psubs.org>]

CWall@swri.edu schrieb:
> 
> > I anticipate launching and
> > recovering unassisted and at uninproved facilities like beaches.  I place a

> > premium on low trailering weight.
> 
> On another Email you told you want to fill the ballast tanks with water
> before you put the sub out of the water to prevent that the propane goes down
 the
> street, right ?
> I found it difficult on most beaches and ramps  to get my small sub out
> and in the water with the tanks complety filled with air.. Your sub with the
> tanks full of
> water..
> 
> *******************
> 
> Incredible.   Do you really think I'd try to lift full ballast tanks out of
the
>  water?  Don't you understand the concept of simply purging the ballast tanks

> with water but leaving the vents open so they can drain as the boat comes
out?
>   Are you REALLY that stupid?

I am not worry about - to lift the submarine with the water payload.. 
I understand your concept of .."leaving the vents open".  
and I am also not worry about that your sub  will m-a-y-b-e capzied over 
the stern on the ramp if you go slow and the bow tank is out of the
water 
and just dry and the stern tank is still underwater and filled, vale
open
and the center of graphity is maybe still behind the weels.  
- but I am worry about, for example on a 1 to 12 beach or ramp you need 
to go 12 x 1 feet = 12 feet more way offshore  for each 1 feet more
draught. 
May you have a look in the archive files  for the thema "trailer" and
length of ramps
and found some files discussions about trailers with aditional
bouancy-tanks.

I am also not worry that your, about 18 feet long 24 inch diameter,
longe range,
travel for days, slow speed, slow diver, shallow water, good weather, 
change prop in the water, lost the splint, waste the weekend, 
propane in the tanks, not going to much away from the shore sub 
can capzied - just at the moment near the beach at the time you open   
open the dome to leave - stand upright, ballast tanks filled - no or
very small
waterlinearea - and for this reason - small surface stability - sub.  

> 
> Yes, I understand what free surface effects are- and again, you frickin'
can't
> read, because I already said I'd have positive floatation with completely
> flooded ballast tanks, and use only trim ballast for the dive.
> 

Look at : http://www.sea-rescue.de/janheweliusz-photos.html
middle of the page : Photo Serie 3  

This ferry has ..positive floatation, free surface (on the car deck) 
and is .. stable. I understand that you not understand the difference 
between positive floatation and positive stability. 

> 
>  Craig Wall

I am absolut not worry with you Craig. But if you manage to build a
submarine
to the concept you offer to us - and if you want later to sell this sub
- perhaps
after a half summer or some years in the garage - via the internet - 
than, I am sure somebody will send a message to the potential purchasers
like this: 
"Hi guys look at the long time storage Psubs.archive files for 
"Propane sub" to learn more about this guy and his famous submarine." 

And I can translate "stupid" and "silly" without my dictionary 
and will never use it on this group to anybody. But maybe you 
can help me to translate "Vollidiot" so I can give you a more private
response. 

And Craig I am sure that y-o-u are not worry about - that this was the
last 
Email you get from me at Psubs.  

very best regards, Carsten