Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Re: philosophy [GUNS and stuff]

[David Buchner <buchner@wcta.net>]

(I have noted the opinions of those who feel such "soft" topics are "abusive" of the list's purpose, and in deference to them I have deleted or privately sent a few messages I wrote, rather than broadcasting them to the list. But I do disagree on the issue of "strict construction" of the list for sub-talk only -- partly because I have so much enjoyed the side-topic "chats" we have had in the past. This is a fascinating bunch of people, and I always enjoy learning more about them. Perhaps we could establish a practice of including a flag in the Subject (Like "warning: Bubble Studies[*]!" or just GUNS) to warn off those not interested so they can filter accordingly.)

{argh! must...try...to...stay...relevant...to...subs...!}

I'm moving this part to the top, as a token of my struggle to make this even somewhat on-topic...

  Paul Anderson wrote:
>children were
>often encouraged to look into their interests more - they had to, no
>television back then so all you could was either read or do something
>creative.  Today, we have teletubbies and pokemon taking the place of Mark
>Twain and Popular Mechanics. 

Well goshdarn said! I think this is the important bit here, although I can't really quantify it and it's just a sense I get. I almost wonder if it's more accurate to talk about the inverse: today, children are *dis*couraged (by this child culture you speak of?) from looking into  their own interests more -- and encouraged to instead substitute the current mass-market, one-size-fits-all youth culture icons.

I don't really know the exact mechanism of this shift, but I get a sense that it accounts for the dearth I see of kids passionately involved in creative, individual pursuits. I've corresponded privately with a few P-Subbers who agree that they don't see many backyard submarine builders coming out of the recent crops of children. 

I was certainly not exempted from these pressures myself, though -- which makes me wonder if it's always been there, or if I just got in on sort of the leading edge of it and it's gotten much worse. I was plenty TV-soaked and passive and just plain lazy. Is it really different today? I certainly think so, based on reports I get of student arrogance and weird psychobabble stuff that happens, compared to what I remember of my own experiences only about 12 years ago...

I certainly don't hear of many kids doing the sorts of projects and mischief it sounds like fellows on this list and guys like my dad did when they were kids way back in the Olden Days.

I get a sort of "Lord of the Flies" sense from your descriptions of child culture. Sort of like, abandoned and left to their own devices, with no guidance, this is the default culture they develop. [don't pick on me if I misinterpret, I never read it when I was supposed to in school!] And they're not abandoned geographically, but intellectually -- their world is a desert where philosophical/moral values and pro-individuality messages are concerned. My girlfriend is a teacher, with some 7th- and 8th-graders, and she's taken to referring to them as monkeys when talking about their cruel and spooky pack-like behaviors.

Another term which comes to mind is "inmates running the asylum." When I ask what would be the alternative to a "child culture," the answer I come up with is, well, an adult culture. That is, with mature individuals (be they parents or teachers) setting the rules of social exchange and setting the examples of how mature people act. Maybe schools focusing on meeting student's "needs" and letting those needs and wishes and proclivities drive the agenday -- has somehow backfired?

Perhaps you and I are thinking of the same thing, when I wonder about how "adult" values like integrity, honor, perseverance, responsibility, introspection etc. seem to be getting replaced with "child" values like mindless diversion, carefree-ness, and "cool." I mean, adults are supposed to be teaching kids how to act, not the other way around. And I wonder if the teachers and parents aren't buying into and promoting a *childish* view of how the world ought to work -- idealizing it themselves and holding it up for kids to follow -- when they suggest that carefree childhood is paradise, and "Kids Rule" and have all this native intelligence and nobility... and it's the adult world that's all screwed up and stuck and we all need to "take a lesson from THE CHILDREN".

But then I wonder if I'm reading too much into this, or getting the blame reversed, when I think of the native curiosity all children have, which most of us agree school culture does a pretty thorough job of smashing down. How does this fit in?


[*]: bubble studies. This is a favorite term which I picked up from a cranky old Geology professor who worked for NASA in the Apollo days, wore a different Harley t-shirt every day, and referred to everything done in the Liberal Arts half of the university as "bubble studies."

-- 
David
Osage MN USA
buchner@wcta.net - http://customer.wcta.net/buchner